Interesting article from the LA Times.

[Phil dAmore]

???  :burnedup: :seething: 

[BC]

???  :burnedup: :seething: 

I guess the new motto in this thread should be 'If you can't relate, obfuscate'

hehe..

Sorry Elen but I just could not follow your latest logic.

[Elen]

what exactly dear you could not get?
A case with Richard or what? Can you quote me for better understanding? 

Can I help you?  Choose a number of my statement which I tried to prove here with my screwed logic

1. boy in article should blame his own lack of knowledges how to behave in situation when he accidentally ( or for purpose) broke  local rules with visa

2. Russian currency is rubles So counting that you could manage in situation when you broke rules with only dollars is some silly

3. There ARE ways in Russia to deal in common life without paying bribes To escape situation with paying bribes you should learn laws, follow them , not seaking by yourself for ways to get advatages for yourself in illegal ways.

4. If you are sick with corruption in Russia better start your attempts to change situation for better with yourself and not pay bribes follow advices in 3* than speanding times in endless discusion how bad things with curupption in Russian government ant etc

5. in conflict situation you must have documented proofs ( WHICH RICHARD HAD NOT)  to support your rightness but not just words of your and your friend

6. Speaking about bad police men you should speak about breaking law by them. Your idea about how much common sense local law has actually matter little.

7. I didn't see that many of you had many problems with police in Russia how it follows from Richard's emotion posts
------------------------------------

Now chose a number of my wrong opinion and post your own idea. I'm tired already about YOUR ( in general)  logic as well.

[ScottinCrimea]

Face it guys, we're dealing with a brick wall here and all that will happen is you will get a bruised forehead.  After listening to her "logic" and your stories, I think I understand now where the confusion lies.  We in the west are accustomed to the idea that we are innocent until proven guilty.  It seems in Russia we are guilty until proven innocent, like in Richard's case.  Elen has the same mindset.  Everyone else is wrong until they can prove they are right and even then they are only "not so wrong as before".  She can claim others are wrong and doesn't feel obligated to provide any evidence but she demands that others prove that they are not wrong.

[Elen]

Of course you do deal with a brick wall  That brick wall is called the LAW

I try to convince you that better you follow that law and rules instead of trying to break a hole in that wall claiming that that wall is built against your "logic" But you continue to bang and bang your foreheads about that wall

 And WHY for God sake is it I who have no logic ?

BTW Try to invite your hot young Russian girl to America and we will see whose "wall"  is more solid, how fine principe "innocent  until proven guilty"  works in your Embassy and how much it costs in your currency to get nothing else but verdict "guilty" without ANY explanation why they think so 

[Elen]

She can claim others are wrong and doesn't feel obligated to provide any evidence but she demands that others prove that they are not wrong.

What exactly should I proove? I listed you my point , chose that one which I should prove to you

[BC]

what exactly dear you could not get?
A case with Richard or what? Can you quote me for better understanding? 

Can I help you?  Choose a number of my statement which I tried to prove here with my screwed logic

1. boy in article should blame his own lack of knowledges how to behave in situation when he accidental ( or for purpose) broke  local rules with visa

Yes this is a quite common initial defense.. 'I didn't know' and in legal terms ignorance is not a valid defense.  The major stuff like murder, robbery etc etc are quite common across the planet but you really can't expect someone to know every law in every country he visits.  During a trip with an EU friend to the US we bought a six pack of beer at the 7-11 'kiosk'.. on the way home he popped the top on one and I had to explain that in this particular state having an opened beer was not legal unless it was in a paper bag.  I know such laws are quite 'strange' in FSU or EU.  Hopefully, if noticed a US cop would have assessed the situation, given a warning, the services of a paper bag retained and all would be in order.  Sure, by LAW the cop could have probably arrested him and even me as an accessory to the 'crime'. 

2. Russian currency is rubles so count that you could manage in situation when you broke rules with anything only dollars is some silly

I am sure that some tourists do think their dollars or euro allows them to escape from minor infractions. They are however a very small minority so making your point as if this is quite standard practice is a bit wayward.

3. there ARE ways in Russia to deal in common life without paying bribes To escape situation with paying bribes you should learn laws, follow them , not seaking by yourself ways to get ad vatages for yourself in illegal ways

See nr 2.  I do not pity this small minority and could not care if they get 'the book' thrown at them, but.. given the choice between two evils I will usually choose the least.  I'll fight for principles elsewhere.

4. in conflict situation you must have documented proofs to support your rightness but not just words of your and your friend

Here I agree with Scott...  in most countries I have visited or lived in it is up to law enforcement officials to provide proof of any violation.. not to say that you won't find yourself in the 'can' awaiting that 'proof'..

5. speaking about bad police men you should speak about breaking law by them Your idea about how much common sense local law has actually matter little.

Here you missed my point entirely and I really can't find words to explain it better than I already have..

6. I didn't see that many of you had many problems with police how it follows from Richard's emotion posts

Here I agree with you fully.. Richard had a bad experience that is probably not indicative of the overall situation in FSU..  In his own words (albeit in another thread) 'Sh!t happens!'

Elen,

I have enjoyed this discussion but I think I will pass at the next round.

Cheers!

[edit]  BTW.. Happy Womans Day!  I am surprised the party has not started there yet..

[Elen]

1. Yes this is a quite common initial defense.. 'I didn't know' and in legal terms ignorance is not a valid defense.  The major stuff like murder, robbery etc etc are quite common across the planet but you really can't expect someone to know every law in every country he visits. 

We discuss that article. Point was made about action of that guy ( overstaied visa)

You see I personally think that visa is such an "issie" in traveling abroad that such breaking rules like overstaied visa is rather important thing to bother yourself with knowing what to do. Though you see it's Russian logic. Becaue I think with Russian brains And that brains keep an idea that if Russian overstaied visa that Russian would NEVER get visa again to that country Such an odd idea has been put in Russian brains by foreigner Embassies  with such a force that it "crewed" Russian minds for sure.

2. I am sure that some tourists do think their dollars or euro allows them to escape from minor infractions. They are however a very small minority so making your point as if this is quite standard practice is a bit wayward.

Again I started that discussion like a discussion of actions of that particular guy who DID think that way I said that's silly. ( boys tried tp convince me that it's I who have no logic)   I didn't claim that it is a standart of beaviours of foreigners abroad at all.

3. See nr 2.  I do not pity this small minority and could not care if they get 'the book' thrown at them, but.. given the choice between two evils I will usually choose the least.  I'll fight for principles elsewhere.

Well if I got you right you would prefer to pay bribes ( though as you didn't say that stright prefering use a saying I could be wrong)  Anyway That's your choice I have my own attitude to that and I do not see that my attitude could be called "out of logic" ( as I'm trying to get what exactly my point was called like out of logic by you)

4. Here I agree with Scott...  in most countries I have visited or lived in it is up to law enforcement officials to provide proof of any violation.. not to say that you won't find yourself in the 'can' awaiting that 'proof'..

Now  you see I can't say how things are there in those "most" countries because I have difficults to find ENOUGH proofs for foreigner officials that I am not going to stay in those "most" countries. So I should belive you with a  word that next second I managed to cross boards of "civilized" country I would be treated exactly like you say. Pity I still cant; provide proofs about my inocent to be able to get that nice treatment.  Till that happy for me moment I can think only with my barbarian brains and use logic which says me if you have something in your documents which does not suit local law because you have a right for exception to the rule better your right for that eception would be spomething else but not "just words"

 

5. Here you missed my point entirely and I really can't find words to explain it better than I already have..

Well I got that you said that law could be silly and it's up to police to put some sence into it to avoid escalation.  My post ( wich seemed for you out of logic like I got it) started with mention a fact you admited by yourself judjing that people had not much troubles with police here then police did have that "common sence". It was only Richard's case ( wich he could escape as well if he applied his "common sence" which OTHER side is needed as well to "avoide escalation" you were speaking about.

6. Here I agree with you fully.. Richard had a bad experience that is probably not indicative of the overall situation in FSU..  In his own words (albeit in another thread) 'Sh!t happens!'

 

[edit]  BTW.. Happy Womans Day!  I am surprised the party has not started there yet..

Party for me was yesterday. ( just a matter of work sheduler)
Thank for greeteing I'm surprised to get any here Never mind that it was only "[edit]  BTW"  It's better than what I got for 2 years at this board at this day

I think that I too shall pass next round of discussion here as I'm tired already with compliments I get here in Women Day. See you all in some other day