Interesting article from the LA Times.

[Gator]

Elen,

You are correct - the American should not have let his visa expire. 

I will say this to place more fault on the American:
1.  No one should do international travel with only $20 in his wallet.  I become uncomfortable anytime my cash gets below $300.
2.  One should have at least two ATM cards in the event one is stolen or locked because of fraudulent charges.

The American was not trying to place responsibility on anyone other than the weather.  His story was not about placing blame but illustrating the convoluted bureaucracy of getting something done in Russia.

If anyone thinks Russia is difficult, you should try Laos.  Thank goodness I had over $1000 cash with me.

[LEGAL]

Kuna wrote,

The fairness system in Russia is simple:  when something goes wrong, it is always the other person's fault.  

This extends to the extreme - if Person A did something stupid, it is Person B's fault for failing to tell Person A not to do the stupid act.

In Russia somebody is allways guilty - all Jews are guilty, all Gypsies are guilty, America is guilty with American influence on  people, now all Chechen's and Azerbaijan's are guilty of disturbances in Russia. It is a typical Russian system...

 
The husband of a woman in my neighbourhood  is dead of a heart attack  in a district police office. The policemen took all his money and even his wedding ring. They let the woman  know of her husband's death the  next morning... Investigation in court... Trial... for long time... but her husband is dead...  
This is not the only case in Russia.


Olga.


 
 

[SANDRO43]

My personal choice - is not to  pay them That my choice even if it costs me less comfort with toilets

Can we take that to mean that you freely admit that bribes are ASKED FOR in Russia (that could be a fresh starting point for a more coherent discussion) ?

A clarification about toilet bribes would also be helpful to perspective visitors of your country .

Bribes where and to get what : admission, seat-cover paper, toilet paper, running water, something else ? We could add any useful information in the What To Bring section of the Wiki, where we could also list those Anti-Bribe Brigade telephone numbers, if you will provide them.

[Elen]

Can we take that to mean that you freely admit that bribes are ASKED FOR in Russia (that could be a fresh starting point for a more coherent discussion) ?

No. You took my words wrong. From my life experience bribes start in majority cases with those who wish to get  something more fast ( than ALL OTHERS who do not pay bribes but wait "in lines" ) with those who wish not to pay the whole sum of money they are supposed to pay ( like penalty for broken rules at roads, like fee for registration they were so stingy to pay for to travel agency) , like "gifts" for a teacher in secondary school, like bribe for failed exam in University)
There are less cases when bribe really is asked In majority cases there IS a choice and choice is made by people themselves

Such cases are 90% cases when people face a choice what to do. 

 Those who are soooo sure they would not get anything without bribe do pay - others do "wait in lines" , pay the whole sum, count on own brains and etc. 

( I don't speak about business it' another case But majority people are not involved in business ( like "owners") as well as foreigners in who come to Russia)

where we could also list those Anti-Bribe Brigade telephone numbers, if you will provide them.

http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/02/28/last78515.shtml

For Moscow ( each city has it's own numbers of course)


200-86-94 - Crimes with drugs involved
950-44-12 - Bribes and corruption
254-78-81 - Claims about "bad" policemen
250-98-10 -  for mental ill people (  part of those who are seaking for a wife abroad - and huge part I'd say - do need this number for sure)

 or just 02

Ps Ask Mir a question about bribes for toilets I referred to his post 9


Ps Just for a case a list with other phone numbers from official site of Moscow government
http://www.mos.ru/cgi-bin/pbl_web?vid=1&osn_id=0&subr_unom=2971&datedoc=0

 Phone numbers for call to road police ( in Moscow and other areas)

http://www.gai.ru/articles/?art=60

[Mir]

I hope you don't count people involved in process of finding husband abroad like "TYPICAL Russians" don't you?
 As for me I try my best not to count foreigners who came here to get Russian wives like typical for their countries.  It would be TOOO unfair to all others in those countries  [/quote

I like that

[Phil dAmore]

I was thrown in jail in St. Petersburg just because the cop didn't like the stamp in my passport. My documents have alway been legal, my wife makes sure of it, but just because he had a hard on to hassle a foreigner, I get thrown in jail.

EVEN presume you told here a truth ( which I do doubt VERY badly ) your Russian wife should know better what to do Because punishment for bad stamp in a passport is not jail for anybody at all But punishment for illegal arrest does exist for police (ESPAECIALLY in a case with foreigners

Elen!

Richard speaks the truth because I was with him when it happened.  He had just arrived with his wife from Tver,  and was within the three- day requirement for registration.  In fact he had only been in St. Petersburg for a couple of hours.  The cops insisited on taking him in. 

The excuse  used for taking him in was that he didn't have a copy of his now-used train ticket with him to prove he had just arrived.  All attempts to reason with the police failed and it was only after returning to the police station with his wife Valya were we able to sort things out.

At no time did he become argumentative or defensive.  He remained calm and civilized as he tried to explain that he knew the requirements and was well within them.  Why didn't the cops take me in too?  I have no idea.  They never even asked for my documents (which were in perfect order). 

I've said it before and will say it again:  If Richard says something happened, then it did.  The man does NOT bullsh!t.

[ScottinCrimea]

GATOR is right on with his post.  Russians are very defensive people as a general statement.  Elen is a classic example.  Have you noticed that every discussion she involves herself in turns into an arguement?  She will concede nothing even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary because to concede even a little in her mind means you win and she loses.  The danger in her posts is that she will only present evidence that supports her side of an arguement and ignore any that might weaken it.  In fact, anytime someone presents evidence that contradicts her arguement, she calls it a lie, Western misunderstanding of the Soviet way, etc.  such as she did with Richard. Anyone here who were to only believe what she presents would have a very skewed view of the FSU.  My wife was similar when we first met, but not to such an extreme as Elen.  I remember I was cooking a dish for my wife that my mother had taught me to make years ago.  Even though she had never heard of this dish and had never cooked anything like it, she proceeded to tell me how I was doing it wrong.  She has changed this attitude a lot since then and we laugh about it now.  In fact, I have shown her and her friends some of Elen's posts to get the opinion of  FSU women and they not onbly disagreed with many of Elen's "truths", they stated that Elen "Lacked wisdom" and had a lot of growing up to do.  So now I at least can't be blamed for not understanding her because I am American and don't understand the real Russian culture.  It seems her fellow Russian women feel the same about her rantings as I do.

[Elen]

Elen!

Richard speaks the truth because I was there with him when it happened.  He had just arrived with his wife from Tver,  and was well within the three day requirement.  In fact he had only been in St. Petersburg for a couple of hours.  The cops insisited on taking him in. 

The excuse the cops in St. Pete used for taking him in was that he didn't have a copy of his now-used train ticket with him to prove he had just arrived.  All attempts to reason with the police failed and it was only after returning to the police station with his wife Valya were we able to sort things out.
I've said it before and will say it again:  If Richard says something happened, then it did.  The man does NOT bullsh!t.

  Registration IS a rule which should have docimental proof but not "just words" He claimed he was taken for "nothing" because he had all right stamps in his passport  And now that "nothing" appeared broken local rule with registration 

How should I call THAT? 

PS in Russian it's called "введение следствие в заблуждение путем сокрытия фактов "

As for "jail" then I guess it was not "a jail" as well but a police office And IF Richard KNEW Russian laws how to behave in such situation when he has been stopped at a street wihtout proper documents then he could escape that "invitation" to police office as well ( In worse case when rules of procedure of so called "arrest" were broken by policemen themselves he could make claims in official way about that)

All he did was no ducumental proof about registrations, not right behaviour at a spot of "arrest", ( in meaning to behave in such way that to escape a isit to police office)  and only cry he has been arrested for "nothing."


And Better you would belive me that you MUST follow rules here ( THAT is my point otherwise to those who give you advices to just
pay bribes)

[Phil dAmore]

Registration IS a rule which should have docimental proof but not "just words" He claimed he was taken for "nothing" because he had all right stamps in his passport  And now that "nothing" appeared broken local rule with registration 
HOw should I call THAT?

The whole affair seemed overly heavy-handed simply because it was not necessary for Richard to be hauled in.  We were about 300 meters from my apartment and if they wanted to see the train ticket that badly all they would have had to do is wait 5 minutes while I went and retreived it, something I offered to do, but they declined to wait.

In defense of the cops I have to say that they did not appear to be abusive or arrogant.  It could well be that they were merely following procedure, and that procedure required Richard to be hauled in.

BTW, why is it that you usually see Russian cops riding around 4 to a car?  Exactly where are they supposed to put the bad guy?  In the trunk?

[Elen]

Heavily handed or not but Richard didn;t tell the WHOLE picture.As well as he didn't know what to do in such situation - He should ask for official protocol made at a spot

  Police has not a right to apply a force to bring him to police office  ( in a case with absent of proper stamp in passport) but only "invite him" there His right is to refuse to do that and ask for protocol at a spot. If such behaviour does not work ( but trust me demonstration that you know a law works in too many cases to get a try at least ) and you have been taken " by force"   then it's already a case for making claims about illegal action of police itself. ( should get a try as well if somebody wishes to live in normal state but not in that where "all could be made only for bribes" like "somebody" prefers) 

 So Richard's case just proved only one thing - he didn't follow rules, he didn;t know how to behave in situation of broken rules, he does not like local rules But those rules do exist and punishment for breaking them exists as well. ( for both sides - for police as well)

And actually it's not correct to discuss what heavy handed or not if that what is handed is in frames of a law.

[Elen]

 I remember I was cooking a dish for my wife that my mother had taught me to make years ago.  Even though she had never heard of this dish and had never cooked anything like it, she proceeded to tell me how I was doing it wrong.  

I am "cooking my dish" ( life in Russia) for rather long period and in a way how my mother taught me And even though  ALL of you males never cooked anything like this ( have not lived here for such long period, many even never have been here at all ) you proceed to tell me how I am WRONG 

( Mind you it's not I who tell you how you wrong about America ( or whatever else country) but it's you try to convince me how I'm wrong in my belives about Russia In addition you always prefer to "re-tell" those my belives in own interpretation instead of posting them in original contidion)

That's how it looks like from my side ( the wrong side of course  )

[Elen]

In fact, I have shown her and her friends some of Elen's posts to get the opinion of  FSU women and they not onbly disagreed with many of Elen's "truths", they stated that Elen "Lacked wisdom" and had a lot of growing up to do.  So now I at least can't be blamed for not understanding her because I am American and don't understand the real Russian culture.  It seems her fellow Russian women feel the same about her rantings as I do.

 Invite your girls here for we could discuss my lack of wisdom with me involved indiscussion. Because in such way like you did that - it's rather not "decent" way to make conclusions about other's opinion Pity you don't understand such simple rules of discussions.

[Phil dAmore]

I guess you just had to be there to understand.  Knowing Richard, I can attest with supreme confidence that he did NOT do anything to agitate, infuriate, upset, disgruntle, offend or in any way encourage the local cops to make a big deal out if it. 

If he had, we BOTH would have been in the can, and with good reason. 

Please understand this occurred in a part of the city where the tourists don't go.  You will never see this location on any tour maps.  It was your basic, old-school Russian neighborhood. We were in fact returning from the market.

While it is understood that Russian police have the authority to stop anyone at any time for any reason, I can't help but think the ONLY reason they detained Richard and me is because they heard us speaking English.

In other words, they saw an opportunity.

For the record, NO money changed hands that day.  And correct me if I'm wrong Richard, but didn't you get something resembling an apology?  I can't quite recall.

[Elen]

Look What exactly are we discussing here?

Reasons why police has done that? - I don't know  but think they do had them (not "right face" for example  )

You do think that police has done that because they heard English speach. Yes may be they saw an opportunity to check how GOOD foreigners followed local rules It appeared not too good. ( at least there was no proof that it was "good") There is no reason to stop for such check those who police thinks about like local folks because rules are written for "foreigners" ( not only from Canada or western , but for all others as well) And that does not mean any "hassle a foreigner"
With the same result I could cry loudly about visa rules for Russsians to any western country But what for" It's rules of OTHER country.


Rightness from "law" viewpoint of police to do that?  - They did have such a right and they did nothing against local law.

Absolutely "innocent" of Richard? - He was not Because he actually had NOT proper documents with him

Awful treatment in police office? Was it such?

Bribes asked by coruppted police? - There was no money as I got


What else? ( his point was there was NO law in Russia My point is there is law in Russia It's just you don;t like it)
------------------------------

Eddited I took wrong the last phrase.
----------------------------------
Richard's version if somebody forgot it already

I was thrown in jail in St. Petersburg just because the cop didn't like the stamp in my passport. My documents have alway been legal, my wife makes sure of it, but just because he had a hard on to hassle a foreigner, I get thrown in jail.

[Gator]

Elen,

Posts from FSUW are very valuable in my opinion.  The posts reveal much about the spirit of these charming women that we pursue.  The posts also give another perspective about like in the FSU.

Your style is not particularly different from that of many FSUW who post here.  When discussing something with an American man it would behoove you to first acknowledge the good points that he has made and then introduce your counterpoints.  Not only is it polite, it suggests that you have a balanced perspective, and psychologically it is better.  It is the style of effective negotiation.   You will note than some American men fail to do this.

Your style is akin to a courtroom attack.  While this style may seem logical to you, in an American courtroom your statements with regard to Richard would be dismissed by the judge.  Why?  You were not there when the police arrested Richard, and he has a witness.

[Elen]

Your style is akin to a courtroom attack.  While this style may seem logical to you, in an American courtroom your statements with regard to Richard would be dismissed by the judge.  Why?  You were not there when the police arrested Richard, and he has a witness.

Actually we are in RUSSAIN courtroom where we are speaking about Russian laws which you REFUSE to understand as well as follow them

So what we have

1. He has a witness that he had NOT proper documents with him 
2. He has a witness police didn't "hassel" him but treat rather good
3. He has a witness that no money has been asked like a fee
4. He has a witness that he got appologies from police when things with his registration have been cleared ( with a help of his wife)


And BTW if we are in a court room then such defenition like "aressted" and "thrown in jail" and etc should be done more accurate For each such statement there IS a particular defenition.

------------------------------------

As for style of discussion then I from my side ask ( and failed to get it TOO MANY times) to QUOTE me
 
Because it's hard for me to get what exactly my points you don't like ( I don;t even count on that you would "first acknowledge the good points that I have made  before you would post your counterpoints' - like you demand that from me. I only wish you would NOT POST my viewpoint in own interpretation)

PS Also any comments about my screwed mind and lack of brain or something else like that  are not argumets like somebodyies see them and don't help at all to "aknowledge those good points of yours - if there are any at all  )

PSS The syle of your own post didn't get a home at all It's not that style which would have effect you count on in a case with Russian woman - too many "demands" and made in too "patronised" manera Try something differen
or better just use to what you have here and try to pay more attention  to "idea" but not to "form" ( if that "form" does not cross boders where it would be already an insult of course )   

[LEGAL]

"The draft  Russian federal law against corruption will be submitted for consideration in the State Duma in March...   ... articles of the Criminal Code Of The Russian Federation don't correspond to the  realistic struggle against corruption" - Deputy Chairman of Committee of the State Duma on safety Valentine Bobyrev has informed on March 1, 2007. "There is no frame law that can consolidate the principles and orientation of policy in combating corruption in  the Russian Legislation" -  Governor of Novosibirsk region Victor Tolokonsky has added.

http://www.regnum.ru/news/789943.html

http://klerk.ru/news/?69654

Olga.

[Shadow]

You can  prove nothing without witness. When you are in private with policemen  in their car or in their office you have not any witness.


Maybe this old woman has not any children because of her health that she has gave to Government working hard. Maybe this woman has lost her only son in war in Afghanistan. Think about it.


The foreigners who are with policemen in private without any witness as a Russian people have not any rules and rights and can  prove nothing in front of policemen who breake law.

Olga.

How about a request to call the Embassy for an interpreter ? 
When the policemen have a right because of error in documents there is nothing to stop them asking for and getting a bribe. When it is pure corruption and false allegations it is a different story.
But to be honest I have had nothing but positive experience with the police in both Ukraine and Russia. Might be my Russian look 

[LEGAL]

Shadow,

Not all Russian policemen are scoundrels.     but corrupt police is a  consequence of all Russian corrupt system.  The ranks feel their impunity when somebody who are more powerful is behind their back.

Olga.

[Bruce]

Shadow, maybe, but maybe you were lucky.  I do not look Russian but I have never been overly hassled.  My wife classifies me as white but not Russian (I prefer to say that as far as Russia is concerned I am black, but that gets my wife pissed at me as well - and she does have a point because the Russians from the South are a lot blacker than I am with a much different look).  She says I have an only American look for all that is worth.  I have been stopped and had my passport checked on numerous occassions over the years but never had any money extorted, thrown in jail etc.  What is funny is that I have never even been remotely approached by police when I am with my wife.  Every time I see police I tell her they'll be comming for me and they just do not.  It seems the guys who were nailed were either out in and around bars late at night or walking around an area usually devoid of foreigners. 

[LEGAL]

Russia: Bribe-Taking Inquiry of Traffic Police

By STEVEN LEE MYERS
Published: March 1, 2007

The prosecutor general’s office announced a nationwide investigation of the country’s notoriously, often brazenly, corrupt traffic police. In a statement, the office cited complaints by motorists that instances of bribe-taking and other abuses were on the rise despite previously announced campaigns against corruption.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/world/europe/01briefs-russiabribes.html

Olga.

[jinx13]

It seems the guys who were nailed were either out in and around bars late at night or walking around an area usually devoid of foreigners.

 Not always true Bruce, I was hit up by four Moscow cops, or criminals as I like to call them. I was in a VERY public place, near Red Square during Moscow birthday celebrations.

 I had just arrived to Moscow from Volgograd on a Friday evening, I was told I wouldn't need to register my visa because I was leaving on Monday anyway, and it was a holiday too. Well I ventured out to Red Square and saw these four policemen, they said something in Russian to me, I kept walking, and they yelled for me to STOP! Then came the shakedown....let us see your passport...you have not registered your visa yet...well we can settle this for 4,000 rubles.  I protested and said I just arrived within the hour, it was a holiday, etc. It didn't matter, I had to pay or they would take me to the police station, so I paid. When i started to hand them the money, then it became obvious they knew what they were doing was wrong, I was speaking loudly so everyone could hear what they were doing to me, and one cop pulled me aside in a darker area and asked me to keep quiet, and he collected the money.  Total BS, I have hated Moscow police ever since. 

[LEGAL]

"Please have your passport with you: in the light of recent terrorist attacks Russian police increasingly check credentials, especially if you happen to look "like a Arab terrorist". Sometimes police just want a bribe".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Russia

Olga.

[Bruce]

Jinx, thanks for reminding me.  There have been other examples besides yours.  Russia is just a scary place to go to which sounds like it is becomming increasingly hostile and thus more scary and worse for ones blood pressure to visit.  It used to be like the authorities were eager to have foreigners visit.  Now it seems as if they would prefer that you do not even visit.  The people have always been fine.  I have to go this July and have been putting off buying my ticket because I really do not want to go, but know I have to go visit my wife and daughter during their extended stay with her folks. 

[jinx13]

It used to be like the authorities were eager to have foreigners visit.  Now it seems as if they would prefer that you do not even visit.

 I was talking very loudly to these police about this, about how they treat tourists, thats when they pulled me aside. Russian tourism could be huge if they just thought long term and not about their immediate needs and bribing tourists to passify those needs, or greeds I should say.

 I only had this problem in Moscow, I have been there three times and have been stopped a few times, but this was the first time I had to bribe them. I didn't have any problem in other cities I visited, never was stopped in Volgograd, Kiev or Yalta. To be honest one of the main reasons I like Kiev is the lack of military and police, it's just a more laid back environment, Moscow is intimidating to me because of abundance of them...I had a better understanding of why typical Russians hate police, they are not the same as our public servants, they don't serve at all, it's all about the money, I guess you could compare them to Mexican police, corruption is the name of the game, money speaks.