What would you use a guide for?

[jb]

Leslie,

It is my understanding that it was the action of tour guides, and their government like minded types, who instituted the "foreigner" vs. "local" price schedules.  Of course very soon after that all the other locals wanted a cut of the action.  Trickle down theory, you know.

Whenever a guide charges his client "foreigner/tourist" fees + his commission, he is being rapacious.  He's not doing his job.  According to Kuna,  he was being over-charged at ever turn.  That being my definition of "rapacious",,, I'll leave it to others to decide if he got ripped off or not.

[Stirlitz]

Sorry but let me remind that this thread is about possible use you can have for a guide and I would be thankful posters who will refrain from posts like the two above however helpful they are and use other threads (existing or new) instead. Rapacious guides and tourists fees have been discussed to the point of complete exhaustion and no need to go on here as the subject of this thread is quite different and has nothing to do with it except for the word guide.

I hope for understanding. So far this thread has been very peaceful, so it will be a good test to see the real motives of posters who wish to steer it to flames or offtopic again.

I don’t mind if mods delete this message if they deem it does not belong here.

[Mod1]

Gentleman,

 Yes, let us keep this thread on topic and away from the potential pitfalls that have filled the other related threads recently.

Thank you,
 Mod1

[Kuna]

Stirlitz,

Thanks for the advertisement!   

I guess what I'm trying to do in this thread is develop a record of what "good value" is and what isn't good value.

I don't agree with Leslie but I don't know what sort of traveller he is (or was before he was married).  I am confident I could buy train tickets... I wouldn't call for a taxi I would flag one down - especially in a big city - they're everywhere and you CAN negotiate better prices than a guide will get a private car for you. I agree with him about needing language help in small towns however I wonder how many people really travel to small towns alone???

From what I'm reading I think it's fair to say that inexperienced travellers might find good value in the "babysitting" type service.  An experienced or independant traveller might not get value from this though.

Some of the other things you mentioned like helping with the Cyrillic alphabet would be things I hope all travellers do before arriving in FSU.  If a man can't even learn the alphabet before he leaves I wonder how interested the ladies he meets will think he is.

Hopefully we'll help people understand where guides can provide good value and where it's just a waste of money and time.

Kuna

[Mir]

I was never able to read a restaurant menu in Cyrillic but they all had one in English as well

[Stirlitz]

From what I'm reading I think it's fair to say that inexperienced travellers might find good value in the "babysitting" type service.  An experienced or independant traveller might not get value from this though.

Probably. As you visit the country over and over again, get to know the language, culture, customs, prices, locations, phone numbers and people it is natural that with each visit you need less and less assistance. This is what actually happens and it is natural. Some of my clients relied on me totally for the first trip but then could manage some things for themselves until they only needed minor assistance. Finally, they would come on their own and invite me to meet just a friends (oh, I know, I know, sorry) without any fees paid just to have fun together. And I am often willing to help old friends customers for free as they have paid me a lot already and do not need anything complicated.

But as regards the first visit, most people need assistance of one kind or another anyway. Not all though —  I would have been very rich long ago then. So, I assume that you can actually do well on your own for the first time and it might be a question of comfort and speed rather than necessity.

[Kuna]

Now we're getting to the crux of the truth...

I agree that it might improve comfort and speed if someone uses a guide but I think anyone that is in a rush (or expects the red carpet to be rolled out) during this process might come unstuck anyway.

I have a problem with the way some people turn this journey into a "sport"... Isn't it a journey?  Wouldn't the daily struggle of getting around and feeling the real vibe in a foreign city better prepare you than being cocooned because you want "it" easy and fast?

I don't know.. maybe it's me.. .but I truly went on my trip wanting to see the real Ukraine.

I don't think you need to visit over and over again and know everything there is to know. I think you need a sense of adventure and the personal skills to navigate your own challenges.  If someone doesn't have this type of character I wonder how capable they are of surviving in a marriage which is certain to present some surprises???

I'm not saying everyone can do without a guide but the "full service" babysitting is surely giving people a sanitised view of the FSU.

My girl wants/wanted me to live in Dnepropetrovsk with her for a while so I would understand her and her life better... I tried to do that from my first trip and think my understanding was greatly enhanced by ignoring some advice and exploring on my own.

It's not nearly as unsafe as some people would want you to believe!

Kuna

[Gator]

My month away from RWD has had some spirited discussion about guides.  Here are my two cents.

Almost 5 years ago I made my first trip.  I went alone, without a guide and I did not use agencies.  I had not even read the RW forums such as RWD.   The result – splendid trip without any problems. 

The cities:  Kiev, Yalta, St. Petersburg, and Moscow.  I met seven women with whom I had written for a month or more (some much longer).  Each spoke English and we had developed some rapport via telephone calls.  I did have one no-show.

When I say I had no guide, I was not truthful because each woman served as my guide.  Each woman showed me the sights and helped me with logistics including transportation to my next city.  Each spent considerable time with me and this was a good barometer of their interest in me.  While many of you have enjoyed your relationship with Pavel or Stirlitz, I hope that you did not sleep with him. 

I enjoy adventurous travel so I designed my trip to experience each city and its people firsthand.  Interacting with the locals was delightful and educational.  And dating a FSUW is an adventure itself.  In this regard, Kuna said it well, “I think you need a sense of adventure and the personal skills to navigate your own challenges.  If someone doesn't have this type of character I wonder how capable they are of surviving in a marriage which is certain to present some surprises?”

I made two trips a few years later after I was better armed with some language skills.  Ironically, those two times I used an agency for some logistics.  Why?  I had established only minimal rapport with the women and some did not speak English.

Although I have never used a guide,  I think one could be most useful in evaluating women if you were meeting many women.  They know FSUW and would have some special insights that a newbie would probably miss.

[Mir]

While many of you have enjoyed your relationship with Pavel or Stirlitz, I hope that you did not sleep with him. 

?

May I ask how long was your discovery trip?

[Stirlitz]

 

That is an interesting item to add to Kuna’s list! But I will have to state right now that this is something I do not do

[funkola]

hahahaha... Funkola.. perhaps you can call "the person" your "person-associate" or something...

Oh, remember to try to get to the Museum of History in Cherkassy...  I thought it was well worth a look.

Kuna

I am thinking of using "person of interest"   

[Shadow]

However, some women are not impressed with men who need to be guided around. Some women like men who can take care of everything on their own be it by hiring someone or doing it themselves. Turning your woman into your guide is not always a good idea.

I would not advise anyone to turn their woman in to their guide, however if a woman has to be impressed by you showing up with someone to arrange things for you I would prefer not to impress her. I can value the services as interpreter and even arranging apartments and travel if you do not trust what you can find on the internet.

[Gator]

Mir asked,

May I ask how long was your discovery trip?

30 days

[DonAz]

I did not intend to post on this thread, because  I posted to kuno, rebutting his arguments on the ** My very own thread about Pavel* thread and I am still waiting for a response from kuno. However I read through his posts on this thread and I find some glaring statements that I feel a need to question

This is the post I mention
 http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3905.msg71743#msg71743



 

All of the hoo haa over my thread about guides seems to be missing the point.

No… I doubt that. I think you are being misleading with your  “wanting to help your fellow newbies” comments. I think you are using that as a ploy to cover the fact that you are stomping on Pavel and other guides.

You do not like the points others make that are different then your own, but I see you are toning down a bit. I wonder if my post in response to you on Greg’s ** My very own thread about Pavel** thread has anything to do with it. I mention it because I asked you to back up many of the statements you made and you did not. I wonder why?

 You Start this, “your second thread”, on this subject  and the posts you are making are intended to hurt and degrade Pavel in particular and the gentlemen and Ladies who offer their  professional services for a fee as a whole.

It looks to like you are trying to get even for the unhappy experience you had. When will enough be enough?

I see you as being on a vengeance campaign now.

That is the point you are making to us IMO

DonAz

[Mir]

Is Kuno the Japanese version of Kuna?

[DonAz]

 

  There's a lot of people that might appreciate hand holding and babysitting but I wonder EXACTLY what these intrepid travellers would use a guide for?

Lets be honest here kuno that comment in italics and underlined above is demeaning to anyone who feels or felt the need for assistance or who has used the assistance of a guide Yourself included .  Kind of funny when you think of it, because you yourself felt that need and you profess to be a world class traveler. ( I'll get into that later)


In a post I made responding to you  I wrote about your hold holding and baby sitting slur. I responded with this quote from that post that you did not or could not reply too.

I agree with most of what you said except the condescending remark about guide service being just hand holding.   Obviously you did not think of it that way when you employed Pavel or ** did you?**

So, I ask you, was your hand held and were you being babysat by Pavel?

Simple question and I ask you to give us a simple answer…yes or no!!

DonAz

[DonAz]

Your quest it far far, far from the point where you should  consider yourself a very experienced guy in this adventure.

 Don’t take it wrong ,but you are in fact, just a newbies kuno, and all of us were newbies like you at one time  No flame dude but it is what it is and that’s the way it is.

 

And to add to your points kuno.....Newbies I would also advise that you read the posts of the long time, successful posters. Send them PM’s if you wish or better yet, post your questions on the board and receive a wide range of responses to help you to figure out which way you are most comfortable with.

IT….IS...REALLY…JUST ,,,THAT …SIMPLE.

[DonAz]

When I consider my own trip I've learned things that I think might be worthwhile sharing with Newbies.

You have mentioned that more times then I can count and  to put it mildly I for one have a very hard time seeing how that  holds water. The only theme in  your fascinating number of posts is banging guides around.
Kuno at this time I think that comment is no longer credible IMO. You’ve been whipping that dead horse in a way that is overbearing now.

DonAz

[DonAz]

How about the others that have used guides?  Do you want to share some things you've learned or ar there no options to guides in your opinion.

What an amazing line kuno. On this and the now locked thread, how many guys do you think, posted their experiences views and opinions?  There were 203 replies on the locked thread and were up to 43 on this thread already and you have expressed your self to others with bitterness, slams and insults at times when they did not agree with you and sometimes when you where not mentioned in the post but you still took it personal and got emotional.

Don’t you think it has all been said?...... Yes it has, many times over and over

DonAz

[DonAz]

Let's de-personalise the discussion this time and assume we're just trying to give newbies the best advice.  What is good value and what is not?

Oh really ..  so then you didn’t say this???

  Sweggin you fool...
Read my trip report and learn something "my friend".  My trip didn't go south...  Far from it actually, but I'll post an update soon.   I suspect you won't read the update unless I use small words though.

To me that is a major inconsistency  kumo. If you meant what you said about de-personalizing this thread then the proper thing to do IMO is posting an apology to swiggin. That is only fair dude if you want to make your word good here
What did swiggen mean in his post?
Well this is what I think. I could be way off base, so swigggen please accept my apology, and correct  me if I misinterpate your meaning
1.   he was very happy with the services provided by Pavel
2.   he now considers Pavel to be a friend
3.   pavel went above and beyond the call of duty to get swinnen out of a major jam!
4.   he separated you from his last para by stating..hee..si ..not ..flaming…you
5.   he mentions that sometimes  when a deal by south for somebody they will look for somebody to blame

Ya know something…he is absolutely right.

And you still owe him an apology!!!

Of course this is just my interpretation that post. I could be wrong but I think I am right. Swiggen is that a fair interpretation of your post?


DonAz

[DonAz]

[/b]  I'm simply warning people when they use guides they shouldn't trust everythng they say and they should question them oon the advice they get...{/b]

If you had made 10 or less posts on this subject instead of starting two thread and God only knows how many post then I would agree with you that you are passing on a difficult experience which I personally think is partially true.

Lets not forget that Pavel , in a gentlemanly type fashion, posted a different version the event.

 I think both of you are right and both of you are wrong. The trick now is to figure where each of you are  right or wrong


DonAz

[DonAz]

Like I said before, I didn't  have any intention of posting on this thread, but that all changed when I read this quote below

Once, but I've traveled  " a bit" previously for buisness and pleasure and have used guides and translators at times. Other times I just flew by the seat of my pants.. . I counted my overseas hotel stays once and got to over  ***480****     Hotelsss.. That was back in 2003 though and ....I've... ..lost.... count.... now.  

Wow…holy cow..…incredible…fantastic..... unbelievable !

 I’m surprised no one else jumped on this incredible claim made by kuno

How in the name of all that is holy, could you have possibly have stayed in 480+++ Hotels in foriegn countries in your lifetime?

How could you possibly remember that many?

How the heck could you count them all?

Kuno you made this claim to show us  that you’re are  incredibly qualified and have an expertise that surpass even the President of the  USA when it comes to international travel and Hotel stays in foreign countries.

You used that statement to display your bona fides  to all of us. humm

To say that I doubt the validity of your claim is an understatement.

And Thats that!!
DonAz

[BC]

Jeez Don,

This is RWD, not the inquisition....

I didn't read all your posts but you are right on one point, Kuna has turned down the volume a good bit.. why turn up yours now?

Do you have some personal interest in the matter?

[Mir]

Gator

It must have taken a lot of emotional and physical energy to travel and to see so many different ladies in that time,plus good planning.

[Stirlitz]

Let me remind though that this thread is What would you use a guide for, meant for newbies… please keep it there.