Overcoming the language barrier

[Jumper]

mark-

Well, it was a smart husband with a much smarter wife.
Fortunately, we both had patience.

while i can understand you taking a short and glib reply..LOL

you think that really helps someone contemplating this?
does it help bucky or I/O or any others facing similar situations?

may be you are simply making a point without offering help..

(edit- i see you are now going to reply in more depth ,great! )

as far as your reply..
if that is your bottom line,
and you seem relunctant to give even
a few examples of  how you guys overcame this barrier,,
so
i'll take you at your exact words..

and would ask-

i'm not so smart, or patient, as you , and my guess is  neither are a lot of other people in this endeavor.

should they avoid this *language barrier* situation then?
since they dont have the tools to overcome them?

and since the level of intelligence in couples is not known..
 why rail agaisnt such advice?

just sayin'






 

[Markus]

aj,

I have read all your posts here and I'm calling you out. Ha Ha. Do you remember that time? I mimicked your posting style and was lucky in that you saw the humor. Hey, disagree or agree, you're a good man.

I'm getting ready to expose details on questions. But, keep in mind, everyone else here is only curious. I wont' provide anything to those who are established. But, although I don't know him in this board, I'm waiting for a response to answer some valid questions from the gentleman above.

Mark

[jb]

TOWW,

Personally I think you need to put the crack pipe down and step away from the keyboard.  You've done enough damage for one day.

[Gator]

Mark,

I have spent 70 days with her on a 24/7 basis. 

Everything seems grand!  I just miss the communication that I had with my previous RW, enough communication and honesty to know that our goals were not aligned.

[William3rd]

If you would take the time to read instead of talk, you would know alot more about those that are here. Your superficial posts are not worth me responding to any further.

Suffice to say- I have seen well over 3000 couples and about 2/3 are FSU.

Your marriage and success are one in a thousand. You are blessed but the quality of your advice-other than that you both had a lot of patience- is low.

My hand just keeps a-reaching for that IGNORE button but. . . .

[Markus]

Gator,

This is not a response to your most recent post, because I won't see it because I'm typing.

After 3-4 months of writing letters and using an interpretor, whom I have met twice in Moscow, I flew to Yekaterinburg via Germany. I didn't sleep at all because I can't sleep on planes, so I had been up for 24 hours. I admit, I was a little scared, even though I had flown to several destinations in Europe. After getting through customs, which was, and is not now, a 1 door access to the ladies that look at you like you've done something wrong. After the competition of getting through the 1 door with all the Russian folks, I was in line for customs. I made it through then had to go through immigration with all the little gifts I had in my bags. After my bags were x-rayed, I saw a sign in English, the only English word I saw, and I headed for that exit to escape my fear of the Customs folks. After exiting, I found myself outside in January, it's cold and snowing, everybody is staring at me, probably because I have my 2 bags, a Dillard's bag on the other hand with roses in my hand that I bought in Germany. I'm wearing a leather jacket, with what my wife calls "summer shoes", but they were dress shoes, and I don't see the lady I came to visit. I saw a girl waiting to meet someone and I thought, "Is that her?" So, I got my phrase book out and asked what her name was. Fortunately, she spoke some English. I asked her if there was a place where I was supposed to be to meet someone who is meeting me from a flight. She said, "This is it." We were outsided, I looked like a city boy with no hat (the only one without a hat), and I didn't know what to do.

After waiting about 3 minutes, some guy walks up and says my name. Now, my name is the only word we had in common. Fortunately, the girl who spoke a little English told me that Oksana and her sister were coming soon. My flight was late and they were drinking coffee. I communicated with the Russian guy and learned I couldn't put my luggage in his trunk. It was full. Now, how did I communicate with this guy and learn that when the only word we had in common was my name?  We did it. Soon, I see my wife arrive and I handed her the roses and she gave me her cheek to kiss. That was so forward of her (just kidding). We got in the tiny car, with my large suitcase on my lap and headed toward the hotel where I was staying. My lady arranged everything because she thought people would take advantage of me.

As we were driving to the hotel, I would look at lady I came to visit and she wouldn't look at me. I thought 2 things: 1) She's way too good looking for me. 2) She doesn't like me. Her sister spoke a little English and told me how her sister, Oksana, was waiting to see me. What I didn't know at that time was my future wife was very shy. When I arrived at the hotel, my RW, her sister, and her boyfriend were trying to ask me something. I had no idea, so I gave them the Etaco translator and somehow, with our without the translator, they only wanted to know if I was tired and if I would come with them. Well, after being up for 1 day, a few more hours wont' hurt, I thought.

Little did I know that 6 Jan was Christmas eve in Russia. We went to a church and lite candles and I had no idea why we were doing this. My RW got yelled at for not having her hood over her head. I learned later why we lite the candles in the church. After exiting the church, I made a snowball and was jokingly getting ready to throw it at my RW. We had talked about that before. That snowball broke the ice on getting to know my wife in the short period. 

We spent the week together, not in my hotel, OK yes on the last nite, after I had proposed to her. We went shopping for rings while I was there and I still have the same ring on my finger we chose and she does too. There's no diamonds. In the future, I will change that. But, she's happy with what we have.

Now, what's next? You'll have to wait because I don't know what I need to address after this post. Someone challenge me on continuing this story if you're interested in the OneWeekWonder experience.

Mark

[Jumper]

Mark

yes i remember,,lol
and  i do believe your actual experiences could help men in similar situations,
but the direction this thread took,it  would probably be read more often in a new thread on the subject..
if you have the time or inclination.

as far as william, if i remember  correctly he is an immigration attorney with more than a bit of experience in FSU couples




 

[Markus]

Billyboy or William,

Hit the ignore button, I won't miss you or your receding hairline. Then again, if you had to ability to debate, I would enjoy your posts.

Mark

[Markus]

aj,

Thanks for the info. So William is an immigration attorney. No wonder he got mad so quick. Someone challenged his thinking. I don't know him and I'm not judging him, but, attorneys are the quickest to get upset with someone provides a different view.

Mark

[Admin]

aj,

Thanks for the info. So William is an immigration attorney. No wonder he got mad so quick. Someone challenged his thinking. I don't know him and I'm not judging him, but, attorneys are the quickest to get upset with someone provides a different view.

Mark

Mark,

William has helped hundreds (thousands?) of couples over the years - and IMO is extremely open-minded. I doubt very much that his "upset" was generated by a simple "different view."

Ya know - AJ makes a great point. You seem to have a perspective which would be valuable - but in this particular thread, it has become combative and rancorous - rendering it nearly useless for anyone except the most dedicated reader.

Maybe everyone can just step away from this thread for a little while.

- Dan

[Gator]

Mark,

Good story, but does not yet answer my questions, especially conflicts and goals.

[Sohkay]

May 1, 2007, 1:15PM
Russian language in retreat in Ukraine

By MARA D. BELLABY Associated Press Writer
© 2007 The Associated Press


KIEV, Ukraine — The fidgeting, wide-eyed girls and boys squeezed around a table in Elizaveta Moklyak's kindergarten class are helping lead a cultural and political revolution.

With her pointer and colorful posters, Moklyak teaches Ukrainian to Russian-speaking children — ensuring that by the end of the school year, the language of their homeland no longer sounds like a foreign tongue.

Sixteen years after shrugging off Moscow's rule, Ukraine is reclaiming a language that — like scores of other local languages across the former U.S.S.R. — the Soviet leadership once disdained as inferior to Russian.

Today Ukrainian has emerged from second-class status, slipping quietly into the chambers of government and popular culture. This marks more than a cultural change: It could doom any hopes Russia may have of restoring its traditional political influence over this country of 47 million.

Just two years ago, some Russian speaking regions in eastern Ukraine talked of secession, fearing dominance by Ukrainian-speakers in the west. The language debate was one of the most divisive of the 2004 Orange Revolution, which helped oust Ukraine's pro-Moscow leadership.

While competition for political power continues, Ukrainian may already have triumphed in the language war.

"I think there is the sense that Ukraine has passed over the hump on this issue, that there has been a big, but quiet, victory," said Ivan Lozowy, a political analyst.

Russian was the lingua franca of the Soviet Union, but its use declined sharply after the Soviet breakup in 1991. Native languages rebounded, and English made inroads among intellectuals and business leaders.

Where Russian speakers in the Soviet republics once enjoyed social and political advantages, many now struggle to keep up in school, to fill out forms in government offices and to compete for jobs.

In Latvia and Estonia, Russian speakers complain of discrimination. That resentment erupted in violence in the past week, when Estonia's Russian-speaking minority protested the removal of a monument honoring Soviet soldiers from downtown Tallinn.

In Georgia and Azerbaijan, many youngsters now see English as a ticket to success.

However, Russian is still firmly entrenched in some former Soviet states, including in Central Asia, where it is widely seen as having brought culture and civilization to the medieval khanates that once ruled the steppes. But even in places where Russian remains strong, nationalists are trying to chip away at its dominance.

Russian President Vladimir Putin appears deeply worried about the erosion of the use of Russian worldwide, and last week called for creation of a national Russian Language Institute.

"Looking after the Russian language and expanding the influence of Russian culture are crucial social and political issues," Putin said in his state of the nation address.

In countries like Ukraine, that influence is shrinking.

The nation's Ukrainian-speaking west yearns to be part of Europe; the Russian-speaking east and south is the base of politicians who want to maintain Ukraine's historic ties to Moscow.

Some Russian-speaking Ukrainians, who make up about half the country, say they feel excluded from the Ukrainian-speaking society. In the past year, many regions have tried to enshrine Russian in local laws, and their champion, Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, has said he would oppose aggressive "Ukrainianization."

But even Yanukovych has brushed up on his Ukrainian and now uses it — not only at official meetings, but at rallies of his Russian-speaking supporters.

Some Russian-speakers feel besieged.

Mykola Levchenko, 27, secretary of the Donetsk city council, said Russian-speakers like himself suffer daily insults and some Ukrainians even question his patriotism. When he buys a Ukrainian-made home appliance, he says, the directions come only in Ukrainian.

"In world society, Russian is a major language, Ukrainian isn't," he said. "Why would we give this up?"

After Ukraine became independent, it declared Ukrainian the sole state language and switched over more than 80 percent of its schools. Nearly all universities now teach in Ukrainian; as a result, parents push children to study Ukrainian early.

"Without this it would be difficult for him in life," said Yulia Bondarenko, who speaks Russian at home to her 7-year-old son, Zhenya, but sends him to a Ukrainian-language school.

Ukrainian and Russian both use the Cyrillic alphabet and have the same linguistic roots, and it's not uncommon to hear people slip seamlessly from one to another. Many words are similar — the Russian word for apple is "yabloko," Ukrainian is "yabluko" — but differences also are common.

For example, thank you in Russian is "spasibo;" in Ukrainian, it's "dyakuyu." And even simple words can be different: in Russian, yes is "da" and no is "nyet;" in Ukrainian, yes is "tak" and no is "ni.'

Ukrainians in Kiev joke that if a traffic cop pulls them over, they'll curse in Russian, then switch to Ukrainian — which conveys an air of authority — to try to persuade the officer from writing a ticket.

"We have nothing against Russian, we all use it," said Yuliya Vladina, a 22-year-old DJ. "But we have a language — Ukrainian — so why shouldn't we promote that? It's progressive. It's hip."

Ukrainian's identification with pop culture appears to have been a key factor in its success, particularly among young people.

Many popular bands sing in Ukrainian. "People are learning the language from our songs," said Svyatoslav Vakarchuk, lead singer of Okean Elzy.

Ivan Malkovych, director of a Ukrainian-language publishing house, rushed out a Ukrainian translation of the fifth installment of the Harry Potter series, beating Russian-language publishers. That success, he said, helped attract young readers to other Ukrainian-language titles.

Russian does maintain its dominance in some fields. Most national newspapers publish only in Russian, as do many magazines.

But every year, the demand for Ukrainian publications increases — propelled by readers who began learning the language in kindergarten classes like those taught by Moklyak.

[William3rd]

My, my, my- I just read my posts over and I dont see any anger there at all.

What I do see is a petulant child throwing about insults directed at those who espouse the overwhelming majority view. I dont get angry at children because they are not responsible for their actions.

Is this how you are at home or only while you are out playing keyboard commando? Those who have to insult and name-call as you do in your loosely termed "debate" have already lost the argument.

Debating the deaf is not a noble task in my mind so you can continue onward. Hopefully, those with common sense will give proper weight to the content of your posts- a very small gram scale will do.

One in a thousand is still one in a thousand.

Folks- dont try this at home as they say. Or perhaps a disclaimer- actual results may vary.

Yep- I think ignore is a very good place for you. . . .

[Markus]

Gator,

Your questions are subjective to anyone who answers. My answers are only
my opinion. I may be concise because I have to depart soon.

How did you know that your personalities were compatible?

Response: I didn't know

But, you can wait forever to know someone and all you
do is continue to wait. It's absolutely impossible for another person
to "know" another person. There is a risk in meeting someone whom
you are not compatible with. But, there are three choices in dealing with
this situation. 1) Go for it, 2) wait a while then go for it, 3) wait and keep
waiting and never make a decision. In all three situations, one successful
situation doesn't guarantee that it will work work everyone. The end
result is to make a decision.

Number 2 is the popular way to go, but, there is absolutely no way to
determine if the 2 personalities will be compatible. In my opinion, aside
from infidelity, once a person makes that decision to become one, that
decision should become a commitment.

How do you resolve conflicts (big ones and little ones)?

Response: You will learn as you go.

I wanted to say, whatever my wife says, I say ok. But, that's not the
case. I give in to a lot, and my wife gives in to a lot. That is the basics
of marriage. Knowing someone very good or not much at all before
marriage is the same result in marriage. You get to know them much
better after marriage. Two people don't know each very well, even
if they take the cowardly way of living together before marriage.

What are her longterm goals?

She wants to sell what she creates on the sewing machine. She made me
a Dallas Cowboy shirt and I had a couple salesfolks wanting her to make
them and sell them. But, she wasn't interested. Keep in mind, my wife
is happy working at home. It's unusual in the U.S. but still rarely exists.

Are they aligned with yours?

No.  I want to retire and live on the land that I bought where there
are very few people and no cars. It's a man's dream where trout fishing
and hunting prevail. She would rather be home in Texas. But, after I build
an indoor swimming pool that we can go to after snowmobiling, she may
like what I like. Then again, maybe I will sell the land and home up north
and stay in Texas, which is what she wants.

Do we discuss these goals often?

No, we both know what the other wants.

Compromise and Compromise and making it work. It's all subjective to the
individuals.

Mark

[Markus]

William3rd,

You still have the opportunity to respond to my post that got you upset. You keep
avoiding it and keep posting emotional responses. You're an attorney, I realize not
a trial attorney, but surely you can go back and deal with what got you so upset
instead of ranting on and on. Didn't they teach you these things in school? You had the choice to hit the ignore button, but you chose to continue on. So, will you deal with my original post or will you hit the ignore button or will you continue to say personal things that shows you don't have any substance to back your original post. Perhaps you, stepped on the wrong road; Not me. I've been waiting. But, I must depart for a meeting and won't be back on for a while. I'll check back later tonight. I hope you will explain what I challenged you about instead of whining.

Mark

[Gator]

Mark,

Thanks.

You are having fun.  When the fun stops, I am out of there. 

You also are building towards something.

Her being happy staying at home is important.  Is this her choosing or her only option considering her limited ability to function outside of her home?

Commitment is so important.  Be candid, were there moments when this seemed impossible?  Or just terribly frustrating?   What are her thoughts about this?

[I/O]

TOWW: It's interesting, finally you have started to bring out a few points which might be of value to those walking this path.  You say write your own road map, perhaps that was a poor choice of words in my question, but the point I was making with the put up or shut up and finally you are starting to "Get it" is that all the preceeding waffle was and does cloud the points you might have to offer the freshmen in this pursuit.  Put up=get some basic ideas out there to help a few others, shut up=can the BS which is clouding your success.

You suggest I can be pretty cocky.  Nope, but I can be the most arroogant SOB you ever met when I so choose. BTW, you mention being in the FSU 7 times (I think maybe I miscounted) keep traveling, you'll catch up to me eventually if you live long enough.

We've seen examples here before of guys getting pretty stressy when their wives are away, your little splash here in this thread kinda reeks of the same thing. Hmmmm risks...smart people see them before they experience them.  It's the key to any successful venture, be it personal or business. 

You see, I am one to minimise the risks wherever possible and just one method I have used is had my fiance' here in my country for several weeks for a visit BEFORE we made that final decision to proceed to marriage.  In fact she was here, went home and I made another visit to her at home before we jumped into the visa thing.

BTW she had almost no English whatsoever but I still taught her to drive a car whilst she was here and the car dedicated to her when she arrives is already bought and parked in the garage. It does kinda amaze me that it has taken 3 years for you guys to get around to that stage, but of couse I live in a sparse area and in spite of her protests she is going to need to drive from early on.

Nobody is saying it can't be done without language in the first instance, but to do so is a helluva jump and is relying on chance to a fair extent.  That is something I just wouldn't be prepared to do and thus I could never advise anyone else to do so either. 

You've come up with nothing to change my view, in fact you've confirmed it to me even more, yes it can be done but one will need to put in a huge effort and observation suggests that many just simply don't understand how great that effort is going to be. 

I suggest that if you had answered the question with a bullet point list of "What we did" to overcome the barrier (No not include intimate details of experiences as thats not appropriate IMO) you'd have gained a lot more credability than shrouding it all in the "phuc you JB we did it" sort of arguement you've put forward.  However, each to his own and if that makes you happy, so be it.

I am quite pleased to see this type of thread again as it has brought this board back into some kind of focus regarding "How to" rather than arguing shcite about "Whether to", so thanks for that, it has been quite enjoyable and refreshing.

I/O

[Simoni]

I have responded to people like you way too many times. Please try to keep to the subject and not create your own little agenda. If you knew how many times I have typed that statement. I get tired of dealing with know it alls who don't read and stick to facts. Since you have forgotten, the subject is "Overcoming the Language Barrier." But, you chose to change the subject by inserting your own opinions such as "Do the personalities merge with every girl a guy dates?" That's not the subject. Next: "Thus, if the guy decided to marry a girl he has never talked to, has never interacted with over important issues that relate to marriage, will they be successful in marriage? You are far from the subject of the language barrier. If you interpreted that I married a lady I have never talked to, then you are communicating to your wife in a deceiving manner about what my experience is. So your wife has a Russian friend who had a problem; I work with a guy who has been married for 17 years to a RW and he is a OneWeekWonder. So what's your point? What I am the exception to the rule to? What rule, who wrote it, where is it written, and when was it written?

Mark

I've been away the last 6 hours and just now saw this post!!!

Mark, are you serious?  You really wrote "I have responded to people like you too many times."  ???   That line reminds me of the racist comments made 40 years ago in America.  You guys...

I'll ignore that line and set the record straight about your insulting reply...

1)  You say I communicated with my wife in a deceiving way?   Mark, she read your quote (her English is perfect, BTW) and made that comment herself.  I simply typed what she said.

2) No, I'm not off topic.  You stated the language barrier was no barrier.  I shared an example where the language barrier WAS a barrier...a marriage killer barrier.   If you give one example where a marriage without a common language works, it's only fitting that I provide an example where it did not work.  It balances your example....and my example I believe is the typical outcome of what happens when a couple cannot communicate with a common language.

3)  If you REALLY think that you can communicate with a fiancee with the use of electronic translators and dictionaries and have no communication gap, I have nothing more to say to you. 

But it's a damn shame you feel inclined to tell others that the one week wonder route is the way to go; you're really doing them a great disservice...

[jb]

Simoni,

You and Mark are near neighbors, you in Ft Worth and he in Dallas.  Perhaps you guys should get together and then he can explain everything to you.  And then you can explain it to us.

[Simoni]

Simoni,

You and Mark are near neighbors, you in Ft Worth and he in Dallas.  Perhaps you guys should get together and then he can explain everything to you.  And then you can explain it to us.

Nah, not interested, JB    LOL

[jb]

Yeah, it was just a shot in the dark...

[William3rd]

Simoni- please do not argue with the omnipotent one. He knows far more than the rest of us. I only see his posts when somebody copies and that is much more comfortable.

He is here for a fight. If he were face to face, he probably wouldnt know how to talk at all. . . . .

[ScottinCrimea]

There are still some things I would need to know to have a clearer picture, such as Mark's age, Oksana's age, what kind of work he does, what city she is from, etc. But here is a timeline and some "facts" based on what Mark has told us so far.

They wrote trnalated letters to each other and later spoke on the phone through a translator for 3 months.

He visited for one week, very limited communication, and proposed and bought rings.

Visited for another week sometime before the wedding.  He doesn't say how much time between the proposal and the wedding

July, 2004 - Returned to Russia for the wedding (He claims it was stupid for him to have gotten married there, for some reason)

Nov, 2005 - 16 months later he finally completes the paperwork for her to come to Texas. (this seems like longer than normal to me).

In the 16 months between the wedding and her arrival in the US he made 3 trips to visit her, averaging one every 5 months.

During these 16 months she took a couple of English classes, got from a level 2 to a high level 3.  He doesn't talk yet about the communication during that time, but it must be assumed that it was still necessary to use translators.

They have now been together 18 months (Not really the 3 years he claims using the date of marriage as the time frame)

In the 18 months since she has been here, they have returned to Russia to visit twice.

During these 18 months he claims thay have done a lot of travel around the US, to Hawaii and internationally (Based on the amount of time off he had to visit her, I suspect he is stretching things a bit.  For example, the international travel sites he names are places that one changes planes when flying to and from the FSU, so I suspect their intenational travel involved shopping in the duty free shops.  I would guess the Hawaii trip was to celebrate when she first came and the US travel involves layovers in Chicago and possibly JFK and driving in his pickup to Oklahoma or Louisiana to visit family or friends.)

In the 18 months she has been here she has taken 3 semesters of English classes (Again, only a hunch, but because he had to drive her to and from class, which he considered a pain in the behind, I suspect these are evening classes at an ESL site)

He will never consider her fluent in English as long as she has the slightest trace of an accent. (and this coming from a Texan!)

In the 18 months she has been here she has not learned to drive, which means she goes nowhere without him, unless it is with other family members, since he mentions nothing about friends.  He says she prefers to sit at home.

Even if she does learn to drive, her mobility will be limited because all they have is a pickup which he needs for work and which she is not comfortable driving.  He says nothing about the idea of buying her a car of her own.

She wants to work at home, selling what she sews, but when given an offer to do this, she declined.

He wants to live in an isolated mountain setting where he can hunt, fish and ride snowmobiles all day and she prefers Dallas. I suspect she neither hunts nor fishes.  No neighbors or contacts for miles around.  I don't know many women who would want to live this way.

Mark, this is based only on what you have told us so far and I may be off the mark (no pun intended) on a few, but I don't think I'm too far off.  My opinion (and it's only mine) is that you still have a few minefields to get through before you can claim success and I think Oksana's view of the story so far would be a little different.  It seems the vast majority of the lifestyle adjustments have been made by her, not all good, and that she is driven by something to make it work.  I truly hope it's love.

[jb]

Unbelievable,,, just unf'ing believable~!

[BC]

TOWW,

Content aside, I am interested in what your motivation is with rather puzzling posts that seem to create more questions than substance.

Although possibly taken a bit out of context, the thoughts you expressed in the following quote seems to be quite common throughout many of your posts.

I hope some newbies read this thread. I will display the folly in the expert opinions. If my post seems long to folks, I think the words will be like an interesting novel (I do have to poke fun at myself now and then).

I hope any newbie running across this thread will take your motivation into account.

'interesting novel'.. Are you a fiction writer?