Overcoming the language barrier

[Wayne B]

groovlstk, no I haven't has a serious argument with Anna yet?  I know that the two of us are going to have friction at times and we have talked about this in the past.  I have been doing my best to learn Russian and I try to have Anna correct me and help me with pronunciation.  Anna takes English lesson twice a week in Kharkov, and her English is much better than my Russian.  I have also been trying to get more information on a small Ukrainian community in Houston, for help in the future.  I do realize that we have a tuff road ahead and that is why I am here!

[jb]

I think it is of further significance here to read posts from two of the brightest men here who are struggling with the language barriers between them and their woman.  First, I/O speaks of 18 months into the process, now we see Gator mention a year+ before even considering marriage to someone he cannot readily converse with.  Then we compare this with Maxxum and Wayne who have not near the time span involved with the courting phase of relationship building and we start to see the widening of the relative viewpoints.   One subset wants what they want, and they want it now.  The other subset are approaching this endeavor using the big head and understanding what a disaster it would be to make an uninformed, poorly formed decision that will affect a great many years of their lives.  Time spent building a more complete relationship is not time wasted.  It will actually save time and money in the future.  Imagine, for example, the agony, the cost, and disarray to your life a divorce will cause; which would, and will be, the natural outcome of a poor choice for a mate.

There's just an awful lot at risk here.

Wayne,

You might try this link  http://russianhouston.com/gl/index.php

[MaxxumUSA]

Men who think sex is the answer have a big head smaller than their small head. 
   

I am the one who first mentioned sex.

Re-read my posts here.  I never said it was THE answer.  Just one part of MY personal experience.  After we connected physically communication went smoother.  That's ALL I meant to say.

Why are some guys knocking the sex part of communication?  It IS there.  I know from experience.  What's the big deal?

Jb...  you are right. 

Wait...  This is getting sickening.  Let me quote myself from what started this whole thing about SEX on page 1.  I will bold MY ONLY reference to sex.  You guys are nuts arguing about this.

Here is my post from page 1:

XXXXXXX SNIP XXXXXXXXXXX
Dan,

Not sure if you read my story.  Basically I started searching worldwide for a good woman Christmas 2006, met a potential via skype Jan 2, and bought my plane tickets Jan 7, 2007.  About 2 weeks after I even considered this endeavor.  My point being I did not give language much thought.

I remember on our first skype conversation me telling her this would be a true test because of the language barrier.  We talked verbally and with text.  I let her type in russian and I used translate.ru to translate back and forth with skype.  We also talked.

I found that she knew A LOT of english.  The problem was she did not understand me because I speak AMERICAN - not english.  We struggled until I arrived for my visit on Feb 2nd.

Now after my arrival she began to understand me much more.  Communication is very much about body language and facial expressions.  We also connected physically in a big way.  And...  I believe our physical connection helped us understand each other immensly.  Yes... I'm referring to sex.

We were able to have informal conversations throughout my visit.  A few times we wanted to talk about serious matters.  During the serious conversations we turned the computer on, she sat on my lap, and we typed to each other through the computer/translator software.

We still communicate like this to this day.  She is in russia and I am in USA so we use webcams through skype and when we don't understand each other we simply type to translate.  She is becomming better and better in spoken english (American) and I am becomming quite good at translating to and from russian written language.

We make it work.  And...  we do plan to marry already.  Even with the language barrier we have discussed very serious matters such as when children will come, where we will live, who will do this and that, how we feel about intimacy, family, religion, and many other topics.

It does take patience because sometimes we need to wait to talk about matters until we are both able to use the translation software.  This is a pain sometimes when we disagree about something.  In a way it's good because we have a little cool down and think about it time before we just blurt out some crap about the situation.  I kind of like this part.

In any case...  good luck to you.

- Dave
XXXXXXX SNIP XXXXXXXXXXX

[viking]

I am a long way from bringing a woman back to the states. But I often think about what others say regarding language and becoming adjusted to living here. So, as I go about my daily life, I try to find things that will help her, if and when such a wonderful women will grace her presence upon me here. For example, it turns out my mothers doctor is from the Ukraine. He has been here for about 15 years and not only understands Russian medicine ( and the resulting thinking of RWs) but also has established a network of FSU friends that a woman can meet. The VP of a bank where I conduct business adopted a child from the Ukraine and speaks Russian well and has one Russian woman on his staff. And the local drugstore has a pharmacist, from Poland, who can communicate a bit in Russian as well. So even without me, she can get money and help with some financial questions, find comfort in being able to express aches and pains, and purchase her normal drugstore things like cosmetics with assistance and possible new friends.

[Leslie]

I reckon I must be the last OMB still posting here who met a woman who spoke NO English and went on to build a lasting marriage.

My first point is that I am in agreement with most of JB comments.

Ken (Catz) gives an informed summary –

“Sure you can make it work. BUT - Both of you have to want it! Both of you have to work your asses off to make it happen! Both of you have to fight like hell to stay focused in this goal, never losing your humor or more importantly your patience.”

The “language barrier” is not so apparent in the beginning of a relationship.  Lust requires few words.  You can have a ball on vacation with a shared vocabulary of just 300 – 500 words.  Becoming best friends is way more difficult.  You just can’t communicate at the level necessary to build an intellectual friendship.  I spent months living in Ukraine and then we spent 5 months living together in UK before marriage but it was still a leap in the dark.  An act of faith in each others character.

Language problems get worse when your lady arrives.  At first it is like an extended vacation and as long as you are around to play Mr. “Fix-it” then all is well.  However your wife needs to build an independent life and this situation can only be temporary.  Public education is not good enough, be prepared to spend $$$$$ on private school. 

IMHO you should also be putting the same effort into learning Russian.

At first your wife will be a “stranger in a strange land”  Lack of language skills causes so many problems!  There is a general rudeness which applies when you don’t speak the language very well.  One day your wife will wake up and realize that this is the next day of the rest of her life and then all hell will likely break lose !!  She may hate everything about her new life and hold you responsible for all her problems.

Our first serious rows did not occur until we had been married a year.  One comment is burnt into my memory

“I was not going to argue with you in English until it is good enough to win!”

Oh and it was good enough to do that now!

The process of building an independent life takes much longer when you have to learn a foreign language from scratch.  My wife’s first job in UK was with a contract cleaning company.  A huge come down for a graduate of the Kyiv Conservatory. 

My wife has now passed the citizenship exam and her English language skills are a fading issue.  My daughters first language is Russian.

So it can be done but it is way more difficult than you are capable of imagining !

[I/O]

I think it is of further significance here to read posts from two of the brightest men here who are struggling with the language barriers between them and their woman.  First, I/O speaks of 18 months into the process, now we see Gator mention a year+ before even considering marriage to someone he cannot readily converse with. 

JB If I can add a couple of small things to this.  All of the difficulties which still arise more than 18 months into this process for mine and I, are AFTER my spending much more time (Nowhere near what you have) than most ever will in the FSU and Russia in particular, BEFORE I commenced communications with my fiance'. 

I suppose I am on something of a high as I write this, having come away from an early morning conversation with mine (Which lasted over an hour) regarding the social problems which precipitate from the children growing up in orphanages in Russia, the causes behind the numbers and possible long term solutions.  Yes of course these are somewhat philosophical discussions, BUT, it has taken one helluva lot of hard work to get to the stage of being able to converse freely about such matters.  (The reason for the high is not the subject, but that we CAN now discuss the subject and understand each other clearly)

Some will ask, what has that to do with a marriage?  My answer would be, use it as an example and if you can't communicate on such things, you haven't a hope of getting past the K-1 stage, if you even get to that stage.  Relationships do involve painting the bathroom walls, but IMHO it is the ability to communicate on a much deeper level, which includes the depth of these philosophical (Intellectual if you like) discussions that will help to provide the mental stimulation for both partners, which just may help the relationship to survive.

If you can't communicate on these levels, then you simply have a friendship with a few intimate bonuses (Maybe) and that ain't gunna last long.  Language IS A BARRIER, yes it is a barrier that can be overcome, but I am betting most don't have what it takes to do that, so they are wasting their time starting such a relationship.  If that sounds egotistical, too bad, I work harder than most at most things I do and lets all check back in in 10 years and see how the numbers cut up. I am a VERY VERY long way from claiming ultimate success in this quest yet and I am simply staggered by the flippant approach of some to this subject .

I/O

[Chelchov]

I think this post would be nothing new or original.  I have to agree with jb and some of people regarding the language barriers.

I remember some time ago when I met some Russian people that forced me to speak Russian.  Unfortunately, I forgot so much of Russian language since I have been so immersed in English all of my life,  I had not gotten involved with Russian stuff.  As a result, I couldn't really express myself in Russian.  I felt like I was hitting my head on the wall.  Because of this, I have been extremely determined not to be impeded by the lack of memory in the Russian language.  I am constantly updating my knowledge in Russian to be very fluent in the language.  I really don't like to face the frustrations of the language barriers.

I think it's way deep in people's subconcious and comfort level that they prefer to be with someone who they can communicate without any efforts.   

I think when you have a good working knowledge of the Russian language, it would make life and dating a lot easier early in the process.  I don't like having interpreter being for translating intimate and private conversations between me and my girl.  I prefer to do it without interpreters.  However, if you are thinking about bringing her to the USA or western countries, it is very imperative for her to speak English in order to integrate into the society and enjoy the independent lifestyle.  If she is not willing to do that, it's better to move on to someone who can speak the language so there won't be too much of problems in the long run.  However, speaking the Russian language would become less useful over time in the western country, but it's still good to know for some emergencies, family conversations, very deep conversations or arguments and travelling around Russia.       

I enjoy to have a lot of intellectual discussions.  I would NOT consider marrying anyone who I can't be able to have intellectual discussions or really communicate in a deep level.  I would rather to communicate and have very deep thoughts and conversations in the common language.  I prefer to have a girl who I can feel like she's my greatest friend in the world where I can feel like talking to and supporting her.  So, having the common language is very important.     

I think it is really stupid for any guys to marry someone who he can't really communicate with her at a deep level unless both parties are working hard to overcome the barrier.  Sex does not count at all.  If any guys who are not willing to speak both Russian and English fluently, I think they should not pursue this venture of marrying a FSU girl.             

[Makkin]

Hello,

  I'm gonna take classes and do hard-core study of the language as to help me to better understand all things that are possible for me.
  At present I can speak fairly fluent espanol as well as German but have yet to take a class. I seem to pick up languages easily but I have a feeling this won't be easy.
  I was complimented many times on how clearly understandable my Russian was and I hope the compliments were honest. It's easy to be understandable with limited words and phrases I suppose..lol In any case I believe a two year minimum of study will allow me to be able to puncture the wall of understanding.

Makkin
 

[Chelchov]

Makkin,

Since you are learning the Russian language, I just want to give you something to think about.  Please master the Russian sound system including the correct pronunciation and 4 different intonations first before learning the vocabulary and the conversational language.  If you already master the Russian sound system first, it is less likely that you would develop bad habits of making typical mistakes that typical native English speakers make.  Wouldn't you want to speak Russian with an American accent like puffing out the voiceless sounds such as "к,п,т" and so on?  It's very important to start with a proper foundation.  Sounds should be mastered before learning the written symbols.   

Way too many contemporary materials on the Russian language from Amazon.com are outright piece of sh!t.  The authors don't know what they are doing when writing those books.  They seem that they don't know some aspects of the language.   Pilmseur is alright, but old Russian books with audio cassettes published in USSR/Russia are way way better.  I usually buy old Russian books that were published in USSR during the 1980's to early 1990's.  Anything from Russki Yazyk Publishers are usually excellent.   

It is best to learn the language from watching the Russian movies with Russian subtitles then try to listen and watch without the subtitle and read, read, read Russian books.  Course is good as long as the teacher is a native Russian speaker.  Still, the best way is practicing one on one with a native Russian speaker and get fully immersed in the Russian language.

   

[Makkin]

Hello,

Chelchov,

  Thanks very much for the information. I will do as you mentioned and hopefully the progress will come. It seems I learned much from not trying to learn too much too fast.
  The 4 sounds you mentioned makes some sort of sense already as the body language mixes a bit to me with the sounds but I'm only grabbing at thin air in many respects.
   I did notice that when I spoke the same words in Russian (clearly) my tone changed from time to time and one of those tones made it seem as if the previous tone made the words non-understandable....I figured this quickly but thanks to YOU...it has been confirmed to a large degree.
  To me it seems that you can say something but if your tone is off to the native speaker then possibly the whole phrase goes out the window. To me when the tone is adjusted then it is made simpler to understand?

Thank You,

Makkin

[funkola]

Chelchov what do you think of the Rosetta Stone program?

[Chelchov]

Remember that any Russian words only use one stress/accent in one syllable of the whole word.  Don't try to accent on two different syllable on the same word... 

One of common mistakes that American make is putting the two different stress/accents on two different syllables of the same word such as "auditoriya"  Russian stress is on the 3rd syllable, but in English you can accent the first syllable and then stronger stress on the 3rd syllable.

Also, The neutral tone of the Russian intonation is NOT neutral to any English speaking people, and vice versa.  Non-neutral tone in Russian means neutral tone in English... 

That's why you should master the Russian sound system and how to properly apply the intonation before learning vocabularies and conversational phrases.   

Chelchov what do you think of the Rosetta Stone program?

I am fortunate to try the Rosetta Stone program through the public library around here.  I got the full feature of the program for free.  From what I experienced with the software, it has some flaws.  This program gets a thumb down from me.  I think it's not useful for any novice.   

Rosetta Stone is okay.  It seems that they are really focusing on the academic/grammar aspects of the language like "the color of the pencil is..."  It's too formal and academic-like for any conversations, but it's still good for learning new vocabulary.  There are no colloquial usages of the language found in this software.  I feel that the software won't be able to help you to converse in Russian with anyone.  Watching movies are much better since they show the real conversational Russian language.  It's very important to learn the conversational Russian before going into those formal academic Russian books/software.   

 Also, it seems that you need to know the Cyrillic alphabet and Russian grammar first before using the software.  It doesn't have any resources or lessons to teach you the basic of the language.  It jsut give you all Cyrillic words and you pick the picture.  You need to have a basic foundation of the language before doing it.     

Personally, I wouldn't recommend the software to any neophyte who starts to learn the Russian langauge for the first time.       

[MaxxumUSA]

I am using the Pimsleur course.  I am about 1/2 way through the CD's for russian 1.  I will be done by the end of the month when I fly to Russia.  I will give a trip report and let everyone know how much the course helped me in Russia.  I think it will be MUCH better than my last trip.  On my last trip I could not even say hello or goodbye in russian.  I think the people I met on my first trip will be surprised that I understand (the basics) of what they are saying in only a couple months.

I also tried the Rosetta stone course.  I was thinking... great, I can say "the ball is on the boy".  Hmm...  that's helpful in every day life!  (Sarcastic BTW)  Also I did not understand 1/2 of what they were saying because they spoke so fast.  All the words sounded like jibberish and rubbish to me.

So I dropped the rosetta and picked up 3 other courses.  Pimsleur was the last one I tried after almost giving up.  But I love this course.  I am actually learning russian which is a big challenge for me.  I'm not a natural with foreign languages.   I vote A+++ for pimsleur.

- Dave

[Turboguy]

I think the biggest bonus with Pimsleur is you can do it without taking special time.  That no book is required and you can do it as you drive.  I am currently on about the third lesson of Pimsleur 3.  In plain terms that puts me on about my 35th CD. 

I also have Rosetta.  I made it through a few of the lessons.  I find it good in some ways but hard to find the special time.  I am perhaps on lesson 5.  Yes, I too can say the boy is under the ball but in all my trips to Russia I have yet to see a boy that was under the ball.

I also have about 4 other programs for learing Russian.  Now if I could just program my brain for learning Russian.

[Wayne B]

jb, thank's for the Russian link for Houston.    Chelchov, I use Unforgettable Languages....it is a computer cd and you can print the Russian alphabet and it expresses the sound of each Russian letter. This cd is a introduction level but very useful. A little over two years ago it cost less than $40  Worth every penny of the cost.

[Photo Guy]

Leslie wrote:
So it can be done but it is way more difficult than you are capable of imagining !

The bottom line.
Good to see you back, Leslie.

[FunIndieBloke]

Just thought I'd add my two pence here:

Some English will be required on her part, if she does not speak a word of your language and you don't speak a word of hers, you won't be able to communicate.  Furthermore, people's ability to learn a language deterioraties with time, I think they did a study where a person can never become fluent in a language if they start learning it after they are 7-8 years old, and if they start learning it after 16 years old, they will always speak it with an accent, even if they study it intensively for 50 hours a week.

My girl had Basic level of English listed in her profile, but she can communicate via spoken words, of course patience is required from both of us, but that's a requirement in any relationship.  We can understand each other's emails perfectly fine, although she does use a translator for the longer ones or for words where she doesn't know the English equivalent!  But I guess that we'll both learn a lot about each other during my visit next week.

One of the advantages of living in London is that its a magnet for expats from every corner of the world, so I could easily go with her to some Ukranian/Russian expat social groups, or charity events to help ease her transition, build her a social circle (and learn the language on my part) once it gets to the point of her coming over here to live with me.  I'm sure that any other similiar city (Paris, New York, Los Angeles) has the same thing.  I think that if one lived in the countryside, or a city where there is not a large international population she will have to make a more quicker transition...  But if she's really into you, she'll have no problems doing it.  And yes, if I would expect her to learn English, I will have to learn some Russian.  This is a two way street, so I believe in making an effort on my part to communicate better with her.

[Todd]

It's hard to not to repeat everything that has already been said, but I can make a few observations from my 18 months of marriage. 

1.  IF you are going to marry someone without a strong grasp of the language of the country they are going to be living, THEN be prepared to accept the consequences.  These women will require a great deal more time and patience up front.  Also, you will have to significantly ratchet down the business trips and OT as your wife is going to feel more isolated.

2.  I would consider my wife fluent in English prior to her coming to the US.  Even for her, she found herself tired after a day of speaking English for the first couple of months.

3.  My wife's vocabulary is smaller than the other people that I have been involved.  It isn't that her vocabulary is small, probably close to 10,000 words (give or take); it is just that others were very large.  However, I have always found her very easy to communicate with in comparison to other women, and I have found our miscommunication MUCH lower than with past relationships.  I attribute this to very similar points of view and morality, a desire to be rationale, and never losing sight of the fact that we love each other.  One thing that I would encourage people to do is to really explore if the two of you have a language gap or a more fundamental difference of opinions. 

4.  Different people want different things from a marriage.  However, if you are marrying a well educated women from another country, then you can bet that communication is going to be key to making the relationship work. 

5.  US couples are at a disadvantage to their European brethern.  In the US, the K1 visa has to lead to a marriage within 90 days.  I think that most couples will discover that the second 90 days will actually be in some ways more difficult.

Anyway, just some thoughts.  I wish you the best of luck.  I attribute whatever success that I've had to my wonderful wife.

Todd

[Jazzyclassy]

         I would consider my wife fluent in English prior to her coming to the US.  Even for her, she found herself tired after a day of speaking English for the first couple of months                

yeah of course it is understandable, but you wont even notice how she will be so fluent in English

Language barrier is another excuse for people to put all the misunderstandings and  bad things on it , it is like if you do not love this person no perfect English will help your couple to survive

I love English language that is why I have chosen to be an interpreter, at school I loved french more and was very good at it and still remember it and read some books on  pre-intermediate level, but it is occurred so that I knew English much more that is why  started learning it on a professional level. Of course am not that fluent as some other people and I make  mistakes in my speech and written English , but I remember I had no fear to speak even when I knew less of English language, it depends on the person really,

I think it will be difficult for every girl to adopt to speak English in the other country , whether she knows some English or knows it a little less, cos  people got dialects , the varieties of English are enormous , so even if you know classical version of English you need to adopt to American slang for example, to some abbreviation , or to cockney dialect close to London or to Australian unique style:

for example  how they pronounce the word today (todie)
there was this joke, some person asks Australian one when he had come to Australia since his absence and he replies I came to Australia todie , so if  this person does not know this dialect he might think oh wow he came to Australia to die? oh poor poor man

So it all depends on........

I am sure the women you chose guys will have no fear to learn English in order to be with their loving men and supporting them all the time:)

[catzenmouse]

Slang is the worst thing to try to understand here. Second to that would be that a lot of people mumble and do not enunciate very well. Third would be the speed at which people talk.

Throw a couple of these together and your lady will wonder what language that person is trying to speak because it sure doesn't sound like any English (or language of your country) that she's ever learned.

It all comes around eventually with more exposure and practice. Be patient, help out with translating common English into understandable English and don't worry about it or try to force it.

Ken

[LEGAL]

Slang is the worst thing to try to understand here.
Ken

But sometimes slang has the very funny phrases  I have the explanatory dictionary "Taking' American" and when I read the phrase - dog and pony show I have remembered a presentation at the my Theatre 

Olga.

[Shadow]

Throw a couple of these together and your lady will wonder what language that person is trying to speak because it sure doesn't sound like any English (or language of your country) that she's ever learned.

Mila cn understands my English very well, and usually understands what is spoken in English here. However when she meets or speaks to an American she smiles politely...... and asks me what the h**l he was talking about. 

[Wayne B]

Slang is the worst thing to try to understand here. Second to that would be that a lot of people mumble and do not enunciate very well. Third would be the speed at which people talk.



Ken, what ya'll be tawkin bout

[I/O]

Jazz makes a fair point about we poor uneducated, uncivilized Aussies.  We are difficult to understand.  (Most of us) To be honest I had no idea before I travelled extensively (The last decade) how quickly we spoke.  We speak English (or our version of it) at a much faster rate than anyone, anywhere I have met to date.

However the amusing thing for me is that the biggest "Butchers" of the English language are the English themselves.  Note an example.  "Car Garage", they pronounce "GarIDGE" 

It really grieves me to admit this but if you want to hear anyone speak exemplary English, listen to a South African.  Their English is really quite something.

Back on the topic of how to over come the issue.  If anyone finds themselves in a  relationship with someone whom they have limited common language to share, then the only answer is to be prepared to spend LOTS and LOTS of time prior to getting too serious.  There is no way around this.  If you can't communicate you can't assimilate with each other.

Jazz, you have had pretty good English for a fair period of time and thus are much less effected by this matter than some, however I think you are promoting much to much of a romantic view of it all. You speak of love overcoming all and of course it can, BUT if you don't know the person (Can't communicate deeply) then that perceived love is most often infatuation and not anything deeper. 

I think it highly undesirable to promote to the freshmen that it is anything less than "Bloody Hard" if not impossible if you don't have common language.

FWIW

I/O

[Wayne B]

I/O, I do find it funny that I can talk with an Aussie, with very little explanation....visa versa....than I can to speak with someone that is a native New Yorker....it seem's that I spend more time on asking 'what you say' and they seem to be asking 'Now what exactly did you just say'   I am Texan.