Overcoming the language barrier

[Bruce]

TOWW can not possibly be the Markintexas from the old RWG / PL boards.  Totally different writing style.  I agree with the above posters that this is just another Mark from Texas.  By the way, since Texas is Texas there probably are many more Marks from Texas out there  . 

Now, those were the good old days where you really had knock down drag out flame fests..................................What ever happened to the good old days    (.)(.) and Markintexas discussing the proper way to meet a girl in the FSU with example, with flame, with follow-up flame ad nauseum, until the next big disucssion, which turned into an equally big flame fest concerning if its better to marry a girl with or without a child.  Somehow this board has been free of those kinds of things.

Uh, Oh............... (.)(.) might not be allowed.  Where are those AD ladies to brand my forehead  ?

B

[Daveman]

Well, whoever he was, his story was at least slightly different in that he only proposed in the first week (still, not the wisest approach in the world) but after that, she did make enormous efforts to improve her English, etc, prior to marriage.  It wasn't quite the classic blunder of meeting a woman for the first time, who doesn't share a common language, hop in the sack, Yee Ha! Run back home and file the paperwork for the K-1.  They did spend some time communicating if that part of his story is true.  Still taking a huge risk though IMO.

For the others out there who meet a woman for a week, propose, then come back and fill out the papers, and bring her here ASAP... man, that's like a roulette wheel with 100 numbers, 1=heaven, and 99=roast in the depths of hell for a while.  William3rd seems to think the odds are even worse than that (he should know).

At any rate, I think a 'guest' or newbie reading this thread, who's actually thinking with his brain will see that TWWW had no idea if they were really compatible and basically spun the Wheel of Unfortune.

He got lucky, anyone else can pretty much look forward to misery.
Dave

[ScottinCrimea]

I think Mark has been riding his wife's patience for the past 18 months.  God help him when it runs out!

[Gator]

I remember both Marks.  They are not the same.

OWW is still harboring some animosity for the salvos of criticism he received 3-4 years ago.  Some of it was fierce, and KenC was the most vocal opponent.   Also, I believe KenC coined the term OWW specifically for Mark and this upset Mark even more.  Clearly, it was nothing personal against Mark; it was KenC justifiably trying to guide Newbies away from following Mark’s example.

So after celebrating three years of marriage, Mark returned to tell the “Naysayers”, particularly KenC, that they were wrong.  In other words, Mark is a bad winner.  

Mark should have just said that he did beat the long odds.  And it would have been valuable to describe the many problems and frustrations he obviously experienced.   Reading between the lines, it is apparent that Mark must spend much time with his bride.   How many men have such time?  How many women will be content with staying at home all day, day after day, and looking at squirrels?

BTW, KenC congratulated Mark.  He just asked Mark to acknowledge that it was a difficult and risky undertaking.  Mark did not.

Some of you know that I am attempting to build a relationship with a woman with basic English skills.  We did not do it in one week; instead we have taken 15 months so far after our first meeting.  I realize that it will take much of my time when she arrives.  Hopefully my new woman will have the patience of Mark's wife.  At least she knows how to drive a car.


I may be a little unrealistic by my only other experience with a RW, who on Day 2 answered my telephone,  on Day 8 drove 30 minutes one-way by herself to my dentist, and on Day 21 behaved and looked more like a Florida Cracker than a Muscovite.   She adjusted to America faster than I did to her living in my house. 

[Bruce]

"I may be a little unrealistic by my only other experience with a RW, who on Day 2 answered my telephone,  on Day 8 drove 30 minutes one-way by herself to my dentist, and on Day 21 behaved and looked more like a Florida Cracker than a Muscovite.   She adjusted to America faster than I did to her living in my house."

Behaved and looked more like a Florida Cracker - now thats a good one!

Gator, just goes to show what experience has taught you.  Thanks for the insights.

[catzenmouse]

Gator,

 From what I've read you've been going at this in a very stable and methodical way with the successful end as your goal. Not many would have the time or the patience to follow this route. My hat's off to you.

I think Mark has been riding his wife's patience for the past 18 months.  God help him when it runs out!

Something like this I would imagine.

[Jumper]

Gator stated

I remember both Marks.  They are not the same.

OWW is still harboring some animosity for the salvos of criticism he received 3-4 years ago.  Some of it was fierce, and KenC was the most vocal opponent.   Also, I believe KenC coined the term OWW specifically for Mark and this upset Mark even more.  Clearly, it was nothing personal against Mark; it was KenC justifiably trying to guide Newbies away from following Mark’s example

the eldest has the best memory
sorry gator couldnt resist,,

but i remeber things the same..
and mark and myself have traded both jabs, debates and  jokes over the years without taking things too seriuosly..


Mark took the OWW title as a *mantle* ,after big debates on RWG with many.,,and KenC in particular..

To be honest i dont think he took it nearly as seriuosly as some here do..
he seemed to think it a funny and a fitting title in light of the many debates.
and yea perhaps to prove he was afterall *right*
about his case at least.
 
one thing you guys do seem to miss,
while Mark can certainly be aggressive in debating and defending his views,,maybe over the top..
he is often being humoursly sarcastic and joking/kidding around..
with a lot of just off hand comments meant as a joke.
its just the net and a forum..
( like the muscle mag comment,and many others were completely joking around)

[BillyB]

Besides wirting styles, Both Mark's look different and their wives look different according to photos they once posted. In the cyberspace world, believe nothing you hear and only half the things you see. Anybody got DNA results for 100% confirmation of facts?

[Simoni]

Marks, Marks, everywhere!  My wife asked me if Mark is the most common name in America!  We have the Mark who is the OWW, MarkinTexas, and the Mark I posted about yesterday, also in Texas, who married the Russian girl who escaped from her bully husband.  And we also have a few other Marks at RWD who post under other names :-)

WONDER what happened to our one week WONDER?

He has gone quiet today... 

[William3rd]

The Omnipotent Wiener of Wonder is resting up.

Go back and see what his outbreak was last year at this time. 

He will be back. . . . could be in a depressive state now.

If he stripped out most of the BS, he could provide some valuable insight for those who are risk-takers.

[ScottinCrimea]

I think Mark disapeared because my guesses where on target and he has to think up some new stories to tell that somehow will make him look like the wonder he believes he is.

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy, usually translators need not TALK much, rather they WRITE (you should have brought along a pad and pencil ).

Oh am sorry dear Sandro she will have both translator's and interpreter's degree , so she gotta talk too  for your information:P

[Markus]

Gator stated
the eldest has the best memory
sorry gator couldn't resist,,

but i remember things the same..
and mark and myself have traded both jabs, debates and  jokes over the years without taking things too seriously..


Mark took the OWW title as a *mantle* ,after big debates on RWG with many.,,and KenC in particular..

To be honest i dint think he took it nearly as seriously as some here do..
he seemed to think it a funny and a fitting title in light of the many debates.
and yea perhaps to prove he was afterall *right*
about his case at least.
 
one thing you guys do seem to miss,
while Mark can certainly be aggressive in debating and defending his views,,maybe over the top..
he is often being humoursly sarcastic and joking/kidding around..
with a lot of just off hand comments meant as a joke.
its just the net and a forum..
( like the muscle mag comment,and many others were completely joking around)

SORRY FOR THE LENGTH, I DON'T LIKE LONG POSTS MYSELF.

Aj,

Wow, you know exactly what you are talking about here. But, you know about me from historical posts. I always used sarcasms to try and get outspoken Donna fired up but she never did bite (from RWG).  I would rather discuss things that require an exchange of differing views rather than something we all agreed upon. There's more learning in controversy than agreement. But, you pretty much pegged me in your post. Do I enjoy coming back at the critics 4 years ago who emphatically were so confident in their opinions that it was gospel? Absolutely. Except, I don't ever see myself getting into a big debate with Kenc again, because I think Kenc is a good man and was only trying to help. We had heated exchanges, one exchange where I crossed the line verbally, but, I will never do that again. We may disagree, but, I won't ever cross the line with him.  I think he is also a very good man.

To the rest,

Let me state that I'm not MarkInTX. Equating me to him would be an insult to him. He was much more diplomatic than I am and he tried not to step on toes. I'm just the opposite. I'm amazed at how some folks choose not to deal with the questions I ask to their posts, but rather choose to tell me what a looser I am, etc. Those accusations don't bother me at all. Actually, I smile, realizing the poster has nothing to debate with and reverts to personal attacks. But, please, if you're out of substance, don't attack my wife verbally. Attack me verbally, I can come back at cha.

As far the muscle man picture, yes I still have it. It's a picture with me and my wife's faces imposed upon a muscle man magazine. It's photo shop work. If the interpretation was that I was alluding to the fact I was actually on the magazine with my body, perhaps I've underestimated the sarcastic abilities of people. So, since this is the newbie section, how can one tell when I'm being sarcastic or stating facts? Just ask me.


ScottinCrimea,

Nice observation. Perhaps I can supply some answers.

I'm 46, Oksana is 33. We both add a number to our age this year, I don't talk about my work, and she is from Yekaterinburg. If I don't address what you said, you have the facts correct.

You state: "July, 2004 - Returned to Russia for the wedding (He claims it was stupid for him to have gotten married there, for some reason)." When did I claim this was stupid for me? I believe you have this mixed up with someone else.

Nov, 2005 - 16 months later he finally completes the paperwork for her to come to Texas. (this seems like longer than normal to me). Yes, I ran into a problem here. I assumed my attorney was doing something and they assumed I was doing something. The bottom line is it was my fault.


You state: In the 16 months between the wedding and her arrival in the US he made 3 trips to visit her, averaging one every 5 months. During these 16 months she took a couple of English classes, got from a level 2 to a high level 3.  He doesn't talk yet about the communication during that time, but it must be assumed that it was still necessary to use translators.
She took 2 English classes in Russia. After she came to America, she placed at level 2 at a junior college with ESL classes and took 3 semesters. I quit using a translator with my wife after I got back from the 1st trip.

You stated: They have now been together 18 months (Not really the 3 years he claims using the date of marriage as the time frame). All I said was our 3 year anniversary is coming up this year. My apologies if I led you to believe my wife has been in the U.S. since we got married.

You state: During these 18 months he claims thy have done a lot of travel around the US, to Hawaii and internationally (Based on the amount of time off he had to visit her, I suspect he is stretching things a bit.  For example, the international travel sites he names are places that one changes planes when flying to and from the FSU, so I suspect their international travel involved shopping in the duty free shops.  I would guess the Hawaii trip was to celebrate when she first came and the US travel involves layovers in Chicago and possibly JFK and driving in his pickup to Oklahoma or Louisiana to visit family or friends.)

I'm not doing any stretching here. On our trips to Russia, we stay in Germany. I know people there and now so does my wife. Most recently, we went to London and stayed two days in the U.K. I'll put it this way, the 1st night eating out with no alcohol cost over $200 for 4 people. The $ is worth 50 cents over there. It's very expensive there. You are correct in that those destinations are connection places, but we chose to have a short pleasure time during the connections. Yes, we have been Hawaii. The 1st night was paid for by the company and the next 3 nights I paid for by airline miles. Did I mention that we got into an argument there? We have been to San Fransisco, St. Louis, Chicago, Charlotte, NC, Milwaukee, WI, Madison, WI, GreenBay, WI, Houston, TX, Wichita, KS, not to mention all the smaller cities/towns. Some of these cities were only connections. But, I will mention that while in Charlotte on business, we stayed overnight for the purpose of buying furniture at a discount. After walking through about 3 footballs fields of furniture for 5 hours (it all starts looking the same after a while), we decided to buy. I have heard for years that one can save a lot of $ by buying furniture there. I checked locally on the same brand  and was able to buy for much less money. In NC., they rack up the retail prices and make it look like you're  getting a good buy. She has ridden with me in a rent a car for many miles, and if I may add, has driven some of it. So, I have no reason to stretch the traveling experience. It's all just as I have stated. And I'm probably forgetting some of the places we have been.

You state: He will never consider her fluent in English as long as she has the slightest trace of an accent. (and this coming from a Texan!)  Does your lady speak English with an accent or do you speak Russian without an accent? This is just my opinion on speaking English and I may be wrong.


You state and is probably a more sensitive subject to the readers rather than to me and my wife: In the 18 months she has been here she has not learned to drive, which means she goes nowhere without him, unless it is with other family members, since he mentions nothing about friends.  He says she prefers to sit at home.
Even if she does learn to drive, her mobility will be limited because all they have is a pickup which he needs for work and which she is not comfortable driving.  He says nothing about the idea of buying her a car of her own.

She has driven many times with me as I have tried to teach her. We have discussed this subject many times. There will be no more of me teaching. Ironically, we just discussed this last week while she is in Russia. I have to go against myself and push her a little on some things. I want her to drive. But, you are correct in that my wife likes to be at home. My mom explained it to me saying a home is a woman's nest. She builds it. I have no problem with my wife wanting to stay at home while I work and I don't mind if she decides to work. But, the decision is hers. Soon, she will be driving. That is a goal we have discussed many times. Oh, and she will get her own car, not a truck.

You state: He wants to live in an isolated mountain setting where he can hunt, fish and ride snowmobiles all day and she prefers Dallas. I suspect she neither hunts nor fishes.  No neighbors or contacts for miles around.  I don't know many women who would want to live this way.  This place I have is an isolated place that I like. This place is not where we will live. It's an investment and a pleasure. If I took you there, my guess is you would understand. Yes, it's a man's thing. But, I don't have an excuse in saying that I like it. If I had to make a choice between my wonderful place where trout are very close, deer around all year, bear in the winter, wolves and coyotes, snowmobiling, canoing, etc, I would choose my wife and give all that up.

Next questions please.

Mark

[Markus]

Your post:
Simon and JB are right on the mark. What the cheerleader is not saying that over three years, they have learned to communicate.

Unfortunately, for most of the men and women, as the communications become clearer, they discover things that they dont like and either come to terms with it or opt out of the relationship.

I happen to know of dozens, if not hundreds, of examples.

Guys, it wont do much good to argue with the wrongheadedness. Just point out the flaws and hope that Pollyanna doesnt read and heed in the face of 99.99% of the advice.


William3rd,

Youre still looking and I was there 4 years ago. So point out the flaws sir. Step up and do it now and make your prediction. I don't know my wife now? You are way out in left field just because you don't agree with me. So, don't be a wimp and hide, point out the flaws.

Mark

William3rd,

All you have done so far is express words of what you think I am or are doing. The above posts are the originals that got you so upset. Read the two posts again. I was wrong in calling you a wimp but I used that word thinking you would avoid my question. So, my use of the word wimp was wrong. But, so far, you have avoided my question. Now, I only went back 4 pages to read, so If you have explained yourself, then direct me.

But, you stated the following: What the cheerleader is not saying that over three years, they have learned to communicate. So, tell exactly, verbatim how my wife and I have not learned how to communicate. My guess is that, you, being an Immigration Lawyer, will use somebody else's experience to justify your position. Keep in mind that my wife and I are not somebody else. I challenge you to explain your words. That's the challenge that you avoided previously and chose to get all upset about instead. Or maybe you don't have an answer and will say, "It's not worth your effort." That's the easy way out.

Again, we are talking about my wife and me. You are the one who brought up "other" people. So, again, I challenge you to point out the flaws. Will you be guessing? Don't get upset at me because I'm challenging you on what you said. And don't try to use "other" people for your justification. You spoke directly to me and my wife. Now, I want to see you show "how my wife and I have not learned to communicate" and how that there are "flaws." Will get you get mad again or answer the question? I will wait and see.

And forgive me on this, but are you still dating or are married to a RW. There's a big difference.


Mark

[Markus]

William3rd,

I don't know if you're an immigration attorney or not, but, after my wife was in America, we were doing the finger print thing for her Permanent Resident ID, and I engaged in conversation with a lady from Mexico who was working on getting her mother the same ID. She asked me if I hired an attorney or not. I said yes. This lady told me a story and described the problems that her and her husband went through without an attorney. Except for my assumption on communication with my attorney (my mistake), the whole process went smoothly. This girl advised everyone to get an Immigration Lawyer to get through the process. I know some folks choose to do it on their own and save money, but, the laws change and it's much smoother with an attorney.  I would advise the same.

Mark

[ScottinCrimea]

Mark,  This is your quote that I interpreted as meaning you felt the Russian wedding was stupid for you.  Sorry if I misinterpreted.

I got married in Russia, had a
(duh for me) Russian wedding with all her family.

As far as the other information, I appreciate the level headed way in which you responded as I admit some of my comments had every reason to rile you up.  I think we all now have a better picture of you and your relationship.

With regards to fluency = no accent, tell me who doesn't speak English with an accent.  If you talk to the people in the UK, all Americans have an accent and thus are not fluent.  What about New Yorkers, Southerners, Bostonians, etc.?  And then there are the Australians, East Indians, etc.  this is probably the only thing you posted that I disagree with.

[Markus]

ScottinCrimea,

As far as your quote, I wouldn't interpret what you thought out of that. I would need to go back and see what I was talking about in the context.

As far as the fluency, I stated perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe I'm a little too conservative on my view. Of course, I wasn't speaking about folks whose native language is English. I was referring to those learning English. As I mentioned before recently, my buddy who has been married to a RW for around 13-? years ( I can't remember, but I work with him), he tells me his wife still asks questions about English. So, my opinion is just an assumption on my part.

Thanks for your polite response.

Mark

[Gator]

TO BE CONSIDERED FLUENT, DOES ONE NEED TO HAVE A FULL COMMAND OF THE VOCABULARY?

I say "NO".

When in the UN, I encountered several people who were born not speaking English yet could communicate better than some State Department, American-born graduates of Ivy League Universities.  Their vocabulary was not rich, yet they could express feelings and emotions freely and with energy and interest.

Some of this was with gesticulation, and some was with four letter words.  Usually they spoke with few words.

As far as I am concerned, RW do not need perfect English.  It seems that the real smart RW do not apologize for their imperfect English because they know that they are expressing an idea. 

[IAmZon]

I think it is wise for the greater balance of this topic to stress caution - anything less would be fool hardy.

I remember KenC, the inventor of the "one week wonder", and his frequent advise on this subject.  How can you have a true relationship if you can not exchange complex ideas and beliefs.  Other senior members offer similar guidance; and others express a very, very trying times.  And this may be just a slight reference to the pain and challenge of language barriers. 

But, I have found some positives on the other side too.

I have noticed that patients, tolerance, and committment is a basic requirement for BEGINNING to communication with FSU girls who are less than fluent in English.  That is less than perfect.  I remember walking in Central Park and telling my girl that I was distracted because I just learned my brother in law had cancer.  Her response was spontaneous laughter.  Something did not get across right!

But, it is almost that we take multiple passes at expressing thoughts and positions.  That build a VERY honest communication structure that is unique by American standards.  The exercise also built trust and understanding as it continued that is as important as that which was being discussed.  In the beginning, her English was a C, it is now much better.  Ironically, since her English has improved it has only served to show me how little I was accurately communicating in the beginning.

The process has impacted my internal dialogue when communicating any woman on a one-on-one basis.  I have increasingly noticed the numerous fragile and sensitive area of conversation with American women (nonverbal communication suggests: AGREE with me, or else.  As if we were on the Bill O'Rielly or something.)  Often the psychological baggage creates a communication environment I call "thin ice".  Sharing a common language does not achieve communion at all; and the aim is not communion, but rather, OPEN HONEST COMMUNION which is more rare still.

I hate the tentativeness and degrees of dishonesty that this communication necessitates; and the more I look for it, the more I see.

So, on one hand there is FSU ladies with limited communications skills;  on the other AW with great communication skills.  And still communication is not assured.

Is it possible that we REALLY don't have THAT much important to say?

[Markus]

rivardco,

I don't see any credence in your opinion because I don't see "tenure" in your endeavor. Tenure for me when I first began was "against" me, but now that I have tenure, it's still against me. My views haven't changed from when I began to now. But, you, how could you write such a neutral post with no tenure? Actually, your post is very well written and since you have experienced the language barrier, it's really not as difficult as folks would portray it to be is it?

You refer to tolerance, patience, and commitment when encountering a relationship with a RW whose English is not that good. Let me just state that I have seen men here who appose a man seeking a RW lady with little English talk about the funny things their wives say.  Now these men are the ones who appose men seeking a RW that doesn't speak good English. So, I wonder how their wives can say something funny when these ladies already know English so well. You see, we have two standards from these men;

 1) Their RW spoke some English but more than a RW whom a man has been thinking about seeking.  But the RW is not fluent in English. 2) Their RW spoke enough English, which is more than nothing, so since your RW can't speak English well, you are riding a train ready to crash.

There's definitely a double standard here. I would enjoy talking Politics or Religion with these ladies to determine if they are fluent or not. But just when they expect the subject, I would change it to really test them.

But, I really like your thoughts here:

Sharing a common language does not achieve communion at all; and the aim is not communion, but rather, OPEN HONEST COMMUNION which is more rare still.

Although I believe the aim is communion, the evidence of your statement is to look at the number of divorces between couples who had a common language. In fairness, look at the number of divorces between WM and RW who had a common language. And, finally, look at the number of divorces between the couples who worked through the language barrier. Some couples work through age gaps, some couples work through language barriers, and some couples work through things I don't know. But, for someone to pinpoint a language barrier as a catalyst to defeat, is based upon a man's experience who has never experienced it.

We can read the statistics from William3rd about so many cases that didn't work out because the RW didn't speak fluent English, but, he doesn't know the cases the where the lady learned to speak English while she was here. I guarantee you he hasn't kept valid statistics, and I have had Probability and Statistics where the prerequisite was Calculus 3. It was too much for me and I switched to Finance. But, has he crunched the numbers or does he simply have an opinion? Keep in mind, he's where you are at, just dating. The tolerance, patience, and commitment become more important when living your lives together in the same bed in the same house. It's important when you spend all your time together except for working.

I'm not recommending that a man just starting to out go find a lady who doesn't speak English well and go for it. There's some correspondence, and, of course, meeting in person. But, the reason I'm defending the opinion of those who have not have not experienced it, is that I'm living it. And, I made the best decision of my life when I asked her to marry me.

Mark

[Simoni]

...the reason I'm defending the opinion of those who have not have not experienced it, is that I'm living it. And, I made the best decision of my life when I asked her to marry me.

If you ask someone to marry you before you can talk together in a common language, you are taking a gigantic risk.  One Week Wonders do that....

Mark might have been lucky, but for him to advocate it will work for everyone is giving foodhardy advice.  Kinda like the California Gold Rush...just pan for gold and you will have it.  Never mind that most died on their way to the gold fields, or found no gold when they got there.

And BTW-- I searched for three years--made a dozen trips.  During that time I was exclusively "with" one girl with very poor English for a year.  We did not know each other at all.  Why?  Because we could not even talk together.  I was lucky to escape.

I finally got smart and started dating only girls with good English.  From there, I got lucky and found a gem.  But it took time, and a bigger sample than one.

Mark, I congratulate you for finding a good relationship, and developing it over time. I think you were very lucky the girl you proposed to turned out to be a good person for you, which you confirmed when she finally started having conversations with you in English.  But for you to recommend such a long shot to others is not responsible, IMHO.

[catzenmouse]

Well said Simoni!

Over the years we've seen a lot of people "spin" the conversations, experiences, and facts to prove their point regardless of whether it makes sense or is a responsible way to go about this type of relationship.

Mark bought 1 lottery ticket and won the jackpot. Hundreds, maybe even thousands, of others also bought 1 ticket and lost. It all goes back to reducing the odds to that they are in your favor as much as possible. Any thinking man would realize this and act accordingly.

The agency hype does not want a man to think responsibly as that would reduce their income. How much money would they lose if they did not allow letters/translation/phone calls/video cams without seeing an airline ticket from the man first? They would most likely not be in business for long if they required proof of intent from the man.

Lots of folks have already congratulated Mark on his beating the odds. That does not seem to be enough and what we have seen a lot of in this thread, in my opinion, is someone who has to show this "rub your nose in it" attitude.

Ken

[groovlstk]

But, for someone to pinpoint a language barrier as a catalyst to defeat, is based upon a man's experience who has never experienced it.

I don't recall anyone saying the language barrier in itself was a catalyst for defeat, what sensible people advocate is eliminating this barrier prior to making the life-altering commitment to marry.

There are plenty of examples of people here who overcame this barrier through hard work and commitment - Leslie and Richard come to mind off the top of my head.

[IAmZon]

One week Wonder,

I am not sure how to take you?  Please turn down the volume.

[catzenmouse]

One week Wonder,

I am not sure how to take you?  Please turn down the volume.

With a few grains of salt, a slice of lime and a shot of tequila...