The Age "Old" Debate.

[SANDRO43]

I thought it was an Austrian? (Arnold) :noidea:

An American also said something along those lines .

[jb]

Not quite,,, but close;  he really said,,, "I shall return"

[Gator]

I am impressed that Sandro made the connection.  And he did say "something along those lines."

That would be equivalent to an American quoting the Italian General Gaziani who said, when entrenching his 250,000 troops rather than attacking the 30,000 British troops in Egypt,  "We are not fighting the Abyssinians now."

[SANDRO43]

Not quite,,, but close;  he really said,,, "I shall return"

JB, use your magnifying glass and read the name of the attachmment .

the Italian General Gaziani

... and that was  General GRaziani, Gator , interpreted by Oliver Reed (Anthony Quinn starring) in an 1980 movie directed by

Syrian-born filmmaker Mustapha Akkad, who lured Libyan dictator Muhammar Qaddafi into investing $35 million in the war epic "Lion of the Desert".... One of the largest financial disasters in film history

which, unsurprisingly, was NEVER shown in Italian movie theatres .

[BC]

That would be equivalent to an American quoting the Italian General Gaziani who said, when entrenching his 250,000 troops rather than attacking the 30,000 British troops in Egypt,  "We are not fighting the Abyssinians now."

As a US expat living in IT I didn't know that either 

One thing that strikes me living overseas for so long is how much television coverage over 'here' includes themes and news from US,  RU and elsewhere.  When I visit the US, it seems very little if any overseas news is covered, except for Iraq and financial markets of course.  Is quite sad when some of my relatives had to look hard and long at a map to even find Iraq (the discussion was how close do you live). Afghanistan? - forget it..

Yeah quite off topic... i know..  but guess what! another age related thread has already started elsewhere!

[SANDRO43]

..  but guess what! another age related thread has already started elsewhere!

Children of a Lesser God ?

[Gator]

Sandro and BC,

Where do you guys live?  I am planning a trip to Italy in May (yes, I know, it is a little late).  Rome and Florence for sure, then probably head south. 

Forgive me, but brash American invite themselves. 

Love to share some conversation over a glass of wine at one of your favorite bars.  You could meet the Cossack of my dreams.

[BC]

Sandro and BC,

Where do you guys live? 

We're way down south (pm me for details) but would be happy to have ya drop right in and lounge around the pool, head to the beach or hit some off the beaten path tourist sights.

[SANDRO43]

I am planning a trip to Italy in May (yes, I know, it is a little late). Rome and Florence for sure, then probably head south.

Aha ! You're deliberately avoiding me . Gator, I live in Milan, 600+ Km north of your first stop in Rome and therefore rather out of the way (and I could only offer you a bathtub and no beach at all, unlike my esteemed, wealthy colleague in the Boot of Italy ).

But should you happen to digress to the north, I'd be more than happy to have a chat and share a BOTTLE of wine (let's go for broke ).

[Gator]

BC and Sandro,

You are very kind.  Thank you. 

[ScottinCrimea]

I just started reading this thread and I haven't had such a good laugh in a long time.  Two young girls ranting about integrating into another society whan they know nothing about it other than "stories" they mention.  They are so terrified of losing their "Russianness" that they go to the extreme and display all of the Russian traits that are better left behind.  Okay, girls, I chose to move to Ukraine and integrate into my wife's world so I think I am more qualified to speak on this subject than anyone here with the exception of LenaC, who has already given her thoughts.  Since I have been here, I have made every effort to integrate into my new country, learning the language, studying the history, discussing with many people their perspectives of the world to understand better their reasons for believing and acting as they do, changing many things I do to be more in line with the accepted norms here (for instance removing my shoes on entering the house).  When my wife tells me I am becoming more Russian every day, I take it as a complement.  This does NOT mean that I have abandoned my American roots or turned my back on my country. The bottom line is that I chose to live in their country and it's my job, not theirs, to adapt.  My wife has had the grace to adopt some American traits herself (unfortunately, some of the bad ones also  )  We have the freedom within our home to pick and choose the traits of each culture that work best for us.  Her soul will always be Russian and my soul will always be American, but our hearts and minds have no limits of nationality.  Heck we even have a dog whose father was American cocker spaniel and mother was Russian cocker spaniel and it doesn't bother me a bit that he doesn't unerstand a word of English.  Now if I ever get him to the US.....

[Elen]

Who are those TWO girls ? ( who are ranting in about intergation into other society here) Are you sure you can read  and count ? 

[ScottinCrimea]

Elen, I have a daughter older than you.  When I'm 90 years old I'll be calling 70 year old women "girls".

Elen + Jazzy = 2.  did I miss someone?  If so, I apologize to them for leaving them out.

[Elen]

Yes you missed that I was not speaking about integration into another culture. At all those N pages there was only one my post like a reply to this issue and it was a question what HUSBAND was supposed to do in such international unions

As for "girls" I don't mind to be called like that because I'm younger than many males here who used to call me babushka ( with true American courtesy )

[ScottinCrimea]

While I have to admit that most of your rantings on this thread were related to the age gap issue, if you will look back at your several posts on April 3, you will find some cultural rantings as well.  Too often your posts are emotional outbursts other than reasonable, well thought out responses and that, unfortunately, loses you credibility in those times when your posts really have substance.

[Elen]

While I have to admit that most of your rantings on this thread were related to the age gap issue, if you will look back at your several posts on April 3, you will find some cultural rantings as well.  Too often your posts are emotional outbursts other than reasonable, well thought out responses and that, unfortunately, loses you credibility in those times when your posts really have substance.

I always asked a favour to QUOTE me and post your claims to my posts EXACTLY when you saw there was something "wrong" with them Otherwise such your "claims" look like your personal attitude to me - not nice one - nothing more. I can live with such an attitude for sure. But it's just turn any discussion into emotional bazar.

[LenaC]

To Lena C:

Lena, just FYI:
Allegory of the Cave belongs to Plato, not  Socrates 

Pitbull,
You are absolutely right. However Plato is known for interpreting and writing Socrates ideas. Socrates himself did not write anything. Plato did. That is why to me it is a Socrates ideas were delivered by Plato.
Again technically you are absolutely right.
 
Yelena C

[Jazzyclassy]

        just started reading this thread and I haven't had such a good laugh in a long time.  Two young girls ranting about integrating into another society whan they know nothing about it other than "stories" they mention.  They are so terrified of losing their "Russianness" that they go to the extreme and display all of the Russian traits that are better left behind                

You see none is ranting about integrating , I spoke my mind here from what I know , and what I have learnt of course there are a lot of statements which are prejudice and not true and which are false and so on I admit that, I am learning and observing things as how my life goes and remembering things, cos I never been abroad , never seen the life of the other people , I am only judging just from the point of view of a simple person from  Moscow , who has her perception of this world and other people by reading ,communicating and so on and as long as it is forum and you should equally accept all the points here I am giving my point of view counting on your understanding and wisdom.

I think it is natural  to appreciate other points anyway cos that is how people percept some of your american qualities,

you would be thankful to me if I lied and told oh you  that americans are  the  the best of all the rest?am not saying that it is a lie.......))) but , USA it is a melting pot of nationalities and you can not object me cos it is History !:)

There are no bad nationalities there are bad people , yes this lesson I learnt I know that  it is true, but again  answer this question

Why there are a lot of nations and a lot of people who do not like hebrew nation?

If you answer my question you will understand why people can have perception of each nation and judge  a nation  sometime by special features belonging to this or that particular peoples

There is even a subject in the University we have which is called
Inter Cultural Communication  ,I could not find the english word for (Межкультурная  it looks like it is Inter Cultural ) where we are given the portraits of each nation and specific traits and features belonging to this or that culture  and nation, you simply can not ignore it or attack this statement cos it is Science already  , it was not invented by me

It is extremely interesting subject but sometimes they way too much detailed and of course it is great to learn theory but also we need practice and  communication to finally actually find out if that is all true we learn about nations

You can not but agree with particular features your nation have and you can not get away from it, of course not all the people have these peculiarities but if they come from the same nation, there is no doubt they got some typical traits of it

it is just obvious:)

[Daveman]

I think it is natural  to appreciate other points anyway cos that is how people percept some of your american qualities,

Absolutely, and many Americans are completely ignorant as to how we are perceived by the rest of the world.

you would be thankful to me if I lied and told oh you  that americans are  the  the best of all the rest?am not saying that it is a lie.......))) but , USA it is a melting pot of nationalities and you can not object me cos it is History !:)

Of course it is true about our history.  I wouldn't be thankful if you made that statement; I would simply ask you why you felt that way.  Because I am American, and I certainly don't think we are the best of all the rest. 

On a side note. You mentioned in another post concerning English words coming into your language.  This is normal language evolution for an open society.  We have many words in English which are taken from other languages, "caviar" for example.  It's neither good nor bad, it is simply language evolution in a global environment.  In America, Spanish is quickly becoming our 'official' second language.  Even now there are governmental requirements that all official government documents be offered in English and Spanish in many parts of the country.  Within 50 years, a very short time in cultural evolution, I would surmise that it will actually be officially *official*!

There are no bad nationalities there are bad people , yes this lesson I learnt I know that  it is true

Of course. Absolutely.

Why there are a lot of nations and a lot of people who do not like hebrew nation?

If you answer my question you will understand why people can have perception of each nation and judge  a nation  sometime by special features belonging to this or that particular peoples

There is even a subject in the University we have which is called
Inter Cultural Communication  ,I could not find the english word for (Межкультурная  it looks like it is Inter Cultural ) where we are given the portraits of each nation and specific traits and features belonging to this or that culture  and nation, you simply can not ignore it or attack this statement cos it is Science already  , it was not invented by me

It is extremely interesting subject but sometimes they way too much detailed and of course it is great to learn theory but also we need practice and  communication to finally actually find out if that is all true we learn about nations

You can not but agree with particular features your nation have and you can not get away from it, of course not all the people have these peculiarities but if they come from the same nation, there is no doubt they got some typical traits of it

it is just obvious:)

Yes each culture has "traits" which are predominant within that culture.  Every culture, and in the case of America, subcultures, has its own *dominant* definitions of abstract ideas such as 'values', 'etiquette', 'grace', 'rudeness', etc. 

Our perceptions of a culture, any culture, manifest due to the measuring of that different culture by one's own definitions within one's own culture.  We apply our own definitions which leads to misunderstanding, prejudice, war, or conversely, friendship, alliances, etc.  We gravitate to those with similar definitions, and judge those with different ones.  It is neither smart nor prudent, but it is human nature as well a combination of societal programming and parental guidance.

Societal programming such as this leads to our knee jerk reactions when when encounter a different culture, for example, my perceiving Russian directness as rudeness.  I *know* this is wrong.  I understand why it is MY problem and not YOURS.  But, my knee jerk reaction is still there, just like Pavlov's dog. Ring the bell of my programming, and I drool "rudeness".  We are all this way and we react according to the various definitions programmed withing us.  A Russian, Egyptian, or Martian baby, adopted and raised (programmed) by an *American* family will, of course have American definitions and have the same drool reaction as any other American. 

It's the societal programming of a culture we first must grasp before we can understand a culture's nuances.

David

 

[jb]

Societal programming such as this leads to our knee jerk reactions when when encounter a different culture, for example, my perceiving Russian directness as rudeness. I *know* this is wrong.  I understand why it is MY problem and not YOURS.

Dave,

Prolly not entirely on the mark here.  Russian "directness" most often is from the Russian's lack of sufficient English vocabulary to phrase a comment in more seemingly polite terms.  When Russians speak within their own circles, and in their own language, they are not generally rude to each other.  Well brought up Russian women of good breeding, and being the polite creatures they are, seldom use vulgarities in their speech and will often dance around delicate issues without ever calling that bodily secreted brown stuff by it's real name.  What you may perceive as rudeness is most likely just someone struggling to make themself understood in a second language.

[Daveman]

Dave,

Prolly not entirely on the mark here.  Russian "directness" most often is from the Russian's lack of sufficient English vocabulary to phrase a comment in more seemingly polite terms.  When Russians speak within their own circles, and in their own language, they are not generally rude to each other.  Well brought up Russian women of good breeding, and being the polite creatures they are, seldom use vulgarities in their speech and will often dance around delicate issues without ever calling that bodily secreted brown stuff by it's real name.  What you may perceive as rudeness is most likely just someone struggling to make themself understood in a second language.

Hmmmmmmmm, HMMMMMMMMMMMM.  Geez.  I've heard something like this before, but I didn't really "get it" until you said it there... exactly that way...  this is also verified (now that I think about it within this 'different light'), by my own experience, which of  course, is nowhere near the breadth of yours.  Thank you.  You've just opened a new door for me in understanding that is really so obvious that I can't believe I didn't see it.  You ever have days where you feel like an idiot?  This is one for me.

[ScottinCrimea]

Okay Elen, anything to please a lady.  Here is the first of your tirade on that day.  Look familiar? 

All "reasonings" about appreciating opinions of women from other culture at this board look for me like a hypocrisy because if those opinion don;t suit your own ideas you ( you* - I speak in general like an "attitude" of Americans   ) either call women idiots with such a fine American "courtesy" or try your best to explain why it was wrong
 The last thing you try to do is to even imagine for one moment that it's YOU who don;t understand something in others' culture It could be understandable if such behaviour of yours would be in cases of discusing life in AMERICA or males attitude to some issue But no it goes in ANY discussion about life in country your visited just few times, which language you don;t bother ( and can't ) to learn ( although pointing at bad English of Russian women who try to carry discussion with you is your usual "last " argument when you lack of others)
 It's easy for you to explain your own inability to understand others like stubbornness of women, like rudeness of whole nation, like suspicion ( because of former KGB  - what a  фигня     and etc - ANYTHING except admitting a fact YOU yourself can't understand and can't accept other's cultures and another opinions


As for this thread then I saw little said here by "boys" which could overcome exactly AGE gap Because boys failed to imagine situation with opposite roles to understand better what's exactly could be wrong with themselves in age gap marriages and if there is way to overcome it at all  preferring to think that what male could not bear ( neber mind what )  because of  just old ages of women was "natural" to bear for women in such unions All women who don't agree with that are idiots  ( but we could say thank even for them just to demonstarate how good manneras we have  )

That's MY OPINION which you claimed you ( EVEN) appreciated So instead of explaing me one more time how I being Russian and raising in "wrong" culture and possesing not enough English is suspicious-wrong-stubborn - blah-blah-blah - all usual compliments of American males ( including condescending "that's just RW guys, use to that) may be you better try to think what's wrong with your own posts and your views on issue because of which I take it in SUCH way. 

[Elen]

And?
What exactly wrong you see with what exactly my statement made in that my post and what it has to do with adaptation to life in America you claimed I was ranting about not knowing a subject at all?

[pitbull]

Pitbull,
You are absolutely right. However Plato is known for interpreting and writing Socrates ideas. Socrates himself did not write anything. Plato did. That is why to me it is a Socrates ideas were delivered by Plato.
Again technically you are absolutely right.
 
Yelena C

Lena,

It's always nice to meet a person interested in philosophy  
However, I cannot agree with you here. Socrates indeed was Plato's mentor, and Plato used the form of a so-called "Socratic dialogue" for his philosophic writings, and he indeed documented many oh his mentor's ideas.
BUT-Plato didn't simply document and interprete Socrates' ideas-he created his own, original ideas, a whole philosophic school. That's why we refer to Plato as "one of the greatest Greek philosophers, the founder of Idealism in the Western philosophic tradition", but not merely as a "one of Socrates' students, who wrote down Socrates' ideas"
The Allegory of the Cave is precisely considered by scholars to represent Plato's own epistemology and metaphysics.
Therefore, it's just incorrect to say that The Allegory (as well as all the Plato's ideas) belong to Socrates. Technically or otherwise.

[LEGAL]

JB is correct many AM & AW have the wrong perception of RW and why they are so curt. I think this is  valuable information for many newbies reading this thread. I have had to answer this question many times to many people.
Fortunately Olga speaks, understands and articulates English very well.  Dave this is just one of the many things you and others will learn over time.


LEGAL