The Age "Old" Debate.

[Jazzyclassy]

One of the hardest things for a person to do, is to integrate themselves into a new culture and society. That doesn't mean abandoning the character of their soul. However, if one chooses to move to another country, they must learn to accept and understand the nuances of that culture. Those that choose to isolate themselves from integrating into a new culture are usually the ones that remain unhappy and in the end return home. If I choose to live in another country, then it is my responsibility to learn the language, accept the way that culture operates,  become a productive member of that  society, and to live by their cultural rules. If I am unwilling to accept any of that, then I should stay where I am.

Here I completely agree with you

and  I meant that  , I just  refuse to understand what other people are trying to say that

" she managed even to smile ...... when she wants to actually throw up ......"

that situation sounds very odd to me and not healthy

Accept the culture and respect the other culture does not mean the other person should completely totally become americanized till the depth of his soul

that is what I meant

[Jazzyclassy]

P.S

Sorry dear I/O we spoiled your topic

 

[Elen]

One of the hardest things for a person to do, is to integrate themselves into a new culture and society. That doesn't mean abandoning the character of their soul. However, if one chooses to move to another country, they must learn to accept and understand the nuances of that culture. Those that choose to isolate themselves from integrating into a new culture are usually the ones that remain unhappy and in the end return home. If I choose to live in another country, then it is my responsibility to learn the language, accept the way that culture operates,  become a productive member of that  society, and to live by their cultural rules. If I am unwilling to accept any of that, then I should stay where I am.

Have something to say what a man who is seeking for a wife from another culture is supposed to do ( ...... except that he should be patient with poor thing who was raised in such odd-ugly-stupid-barbarian and wrong in all possible ways culture  and teach her teach her and teach for she could archive civil condition ... to 9th year of marrige  )

[I/O]

Jazz & Elen:  Both of you have taken yourselves prisoner of your super sensativities here. 

I wonder who said or implied that everything with Russian culture was wrong? You are both taking things to extremes to try to make a point which has been well enough made before, that is, some of us could do well to exercise more courtesy towards Russian thinking.  You point is accepted and understood.

One thing that I have noticed as very different is that many westerners are far more accepting of criticism of their own country than are Russians accepting of criticisms of Russia.  This I have observed often over the past 5 years. 

I ask you the question, is it better to smile somewhat sweetly and pass off some conversational  point which is really not important for the sake of a pleasant situation or is it better to get locked in a strong social debate over some insignificant point?  You may call that hypocrisy, but you would have to acknowlege that it usually allows for a more relaxed social environment and THAT DEAR LADIES is one of the VERY BIG differences between European (Both east and west) and Non European countries.

USA and Aus for example do have very much more socially relaxed lifestyles than does Europe and particularly eastern Europe and that IS NOT all about economics. 

Now we are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic.

I/O

[SANDRO43]

and THAT DEAR LADIES is one of the VERY BIG differences between European (Both east and west) and Non European countries. USA and Aus for example do have very much more socially relaxed lifestyles than does Europe and particularly eastern Europe and that IS NOT all about economics.

I/O, there you go again making bold generalisations about Western Europeans that seem to originate from some chip on your shoulder (IIRC, you said something in an earlier post along the lines of them considering Ozzies uncouth/uncultured, or something like that).

In what do you find us socially unrelaxed, as opposed to what happens in the USA and Aus ???

[jb]

OMG~!  I take some time off to get some other work done and look what has happened to a perfectly good thread.

Jazzy, and Elen,,, when I meet people with combative personalities,,, such as you both have exhibited here,,, my usual demeanor is to simply smile and say; "Good luck to you".  I do not make friends with such people, I don't need that kind of stress in my life.

You could even say I'm being hipocritical, I say I'm doing something "heart healthy" by avoiding the grief of even being around people who look for any little nit-picky reason to pick a fight.

[Elen]

Then buy yourself a China doll with enternal smile and noding heard ( and also a mirror to take a look in it time from time to see there a male's variant of us both  )

[I/O]

I/O, there you go again making bold generalisations about Western Europeans that seem to originate from some chip on your shoulder (IIRC, you said something in an earlier post along the lines of them considering Ozzies uncouth/uncultured, or something like that).

In what do you find us socially unrelaxed, as opposed to what happens in the USA and Aus ???

Sandro:  No chips on shoulders.  In fact I am from very close direct European decent myself and I think I take a fairly balanced view of all races.  Certainly I have my preferences, we all do. But that is not important for the purpose of noticing the differences.

Yes there is a certain element of European peoples who live with their heads stuck very much in the sand, living on bygone glories and holding a very elitist attitude.  SOME not all.  Likewise there is a certain element of Aussies who completely deserve the uncouth/uncultured title bestowed upon them, perhaps I am one. 

The answer to your question is that many less European people on the streets of any number of cities in any number of countries display the relaxed demeanour that you will see in many parts of Aus or USA.  That is the reality.

I tend to think this remains one of the attractions to these countries.  Still the flow of immigration from Europe to these countries far outnumbers the flow in the opposite direction.  Logic has to tell you something.
 
I/O

[wxman]

Have something to say what a man who is seeking for a wife from another culture is supposed to do ( ...... except that he should be patient with poor thing who was raised in such odd-ugly-stupid-barbarian and wrong in all possible ways culture  and teach her teach her and teach for she could archive civil condition ... to 9th year of marrige  )

Wow! Now that's putting false words in my mouth. Where in my statement did I ever say that a person that moves to another country came from "odd-ugly-stupid-barbarian and wrong in all possible ways culture"? Only a barbarian would think that!  

[KenC]

Shows  wonderful culture is not it

Yes, it does thank you very much.

What western men did to help their russian wives, preserve their nature, their russian culture ?

There are many Russian traits that my wife has maintained, but she lives in America and no matter how much you and Elen kick about it, it is the RW that have to adapt to their new environment not the environment that adapts to RW.  With your piss poor attitude, you will have major problems when you move.

Social Graces?? what you call social graces, ability to be hypocritical you call social grace? since when ?

Where is the hypocrisy?

What I told it is not what you call a  sh!t , it is well known and wide spread statement which can be true in many cases dear Ken C

I have met hundreds of RW here in America, I see no sign of the slavery you speak of.  Wide spread?  Only in your small mind.

Who give you right to talk like that  using such a crap language and low class words plus feeling yourself like a King  among people who have no idea about anything in your understanding

I give your foolish words their due amount of respect, which isn't much.

Your attacks shows another your true appearance

which we can all observe here and make conclusions
Again referring to your High class up bringing and terrific respectful attitude towards the other's opinions

When the opinion is based on heresay and old wives tales like your's is, it should not be given any credibility

Once again to cut this out for you

I heard many stories about women who went to live in america with their so called hubbies and then had such an illed souls  trying to adopt to their Social graces as you called, then after some years were coming back to Russia with depressed mood  and ruined lives and found themselves in the Monasteries
I judge from the stories I heard and it is not foolish

This is a ridiculous waste of words on your part.  I suggest you quit listening to the tales the babushka's tell from their benches.  There is no credible or factual support for your theory.  If you truly feel this way, you should stay in Moscow with Elen.
KenC

[Elen]

Wow! Now that's putting false words in my mouth. Where in my statement did I ever say that a person that moves to another country came from "odd-ugly-stupid-barbarian and wrong in all possible ways culture"? Only a barbarian would think that!  

I didn't put those words in YOUR mouth I ask you a question about  your ideas what MAN is supposed to do because till now I saw only what I wrote from posts and advices of others experienced guys here - pacient in teaching her because she came from "wrong" culture NOw stand up from a floor where you are rolling and answer a question if you have something to say

[KenC]

P.S

Sorry dear I/O we spoiled your topic

 

Yes, you and Elen have ruined a perfectly good thread with your nonsensical posts.  All the two of you have accomplished is to prove that you both are willing to destroy a perfectly good train of thought to push your own agendas.  Elen with her silly "what about a woman that is 25 years older than the man" and you with your unwarranted criticism of my posts here.  Let me tell you something, you have yet to live in your honey's country and I have lived here with my wife for almost 9 years.  Where is your experience to debate the ideas of fitting into another culture?  You have no practical knowledge at all and yet you want to debate every little thing posted here.  As I said before, get over yourself because you have nothing credible to add on this subject.
KenC

[Gator]

Can I interject some civility please?

This thread has steered away from age disparity to cultural differences.  Normally such discussions feature many men explaining that they have adapted as evidenced by removing one’s shoes upon entering the house and eating thinner pancakes.  Yet, there is much, much more to this than simple rituals.  One’s culture is manifested in one’s soul. 

All of us who intend to marry, whether man or woman, are facing cultural differences.  The appropriate resolution of cultural differences is not to erase one’s heritage and adopt the new world.  Instead, it is to integrate two cultures, two souls - somehow taking what is best from both and still function both as a family unit and as a member of society.  If this is done with two compatible personalities and with thought, it would create a little new world that is better for both partners.   

Am I too idealistic?  If one’s partner is so insular* as to not consider new and different ways, ideas, and values, then yes I am idealistic.  However, think about what two intelligent, creative and open-minded people could achieve.  That is my hope.

What does age disparity have to do with it?  It obviously helps if the host person is experienced because with experience comes wisdom.  And with age also comes patience, at least in my case, even for the ignorant.  That still does not necessitate that the émigré be young.

*  A less inflammatory word than "stubborn".   

[wxman]

I didn't put those words in YOUR mouth I ask you a question about  your ideas what MAN is supposed to do because till now I saw only what I wrote from posts and advices of others experienced guys here - pacient in teaching her because she came from "wrong" culture NOw stand up from a floor where you are rolling and answer a question if you have something to say

Ok, I'm standing again. I guess I can't answer that, because no "wrong" cultures exist, just different ones. Oops, I fell down again. 

[Elen]

My silly statement is silly only for males like you who can't understand ( or refuse to admit) what exactly WOMEN lose in such age gap marriage And if she still stay in such union then it's either she is TOO unusual ( for some reasons) or has something to compensate an absent of those things which would make impossible for other women (because of the SAME reasons like it's impossible for males) to have such relationship

And that silly statement is just a well known game - exchange a role to better understanding other side( if you wish to understand it of course at all )

[Elen]

Ok, I'm standing again. I guess I can't answer that, because no "wrong" cultures exist, just different ones. Oops, I fell down again. 

stand up again and re-read posts of your amercan fellows,  how they see Russian culture when they are discussing it not in front of Russians but behind their backs at such forums like that

[KenC]

My silly statement is silly only for males like you who can't understand ( or refuse to admit) what exactly WOMEN lose in such age gap marriage And if she still stay in such union then it's either she is TOO unusual ( for some reasons) or has something to compensate an absent of those things which would make impossible for other women (because of the SAME reasons like it's impossible for males) to have such relationship

And that silly statement is just a well known game - exchange a role to better understanding other side( if you wish to understand it of course at all )

I don't and it is such an unusual idea (and such a rarity) that it is not a factor at all.  For you to hijack this thread with such an obscure idea is a tragedy.  Start your own thread about older women married to younger men and see how many participate.  Few if any I guess.  Instead you interject your ridiculous ideas and sidetrack a thread that could prove helpful.
KenC

[wxman]

My silly statement is silly only for males like you who can't understand ( or refuse to admit) what exactly WOMEN lose in such age gap marriage And if she still stay in such union then it's either she is TOO unusual ( for some reasons) or has something to compensate an absent of those things which would make impossible for other women (because of the SAME reasons like it's impossible for males) to have such relationship

And that silly statement is just a well known game - exchange a role to better understanding other side( if you wish to understand it of course at all )

It's not for me to judge if a couple has a large age difference. They are adults, and only they can figure out their future. I personally do not care for a large age difference and would not marry someone more than 7 or 8 years younger or older than me. That's my preference. It's not for us to judge them. If they are happy, that is all that matters. No 2 people are alike and the same goes with marriages.  When 2 people get married, I wish them all the happiness in the world. I can't worry about their lives. I have my own to live.

[wxman]

stand up again and re-read posts of your amercan fellows,  how they see Russian culture when they are discussing it not in front of Russians but behind their backs at such forums like that

My belief is if you can't say it to their face, then don't say it behind their back.

[KenC]

Here I completely agree with you

and  I meant that  , I just  refuse to understand what other people are trying to say that

Showing your true obstinate behavior to even try to understand a different thought.

" she managed even to smile ...... when she wants to actually throw up ......"
that situation sounds very odd to me and not healthy

Another of your many faulty assumptions.  Where do you get this crap from?  Or do you just make it up as you go?

Accept the culture and respect the other culture does not mean the other person should completely totally become americanized till the depth of his soul

that is what I meant

  And it is still wrong.  Adapting to another culture does not mean one has to give up everything from their own and no one here said that.  If we were to live in Russia, then I would have to adapt to Russian culture, but we live in America where my wife has to adapt to American culture.  The American culture will be the dominate culture, that is only common sense.
KenC

[Elen]

I don't and it is such an unusual idea (and such a rarity) that it is not a factor at all.  For you to hijack this thread with such an obscure idea is a tragedy.  Start your own thread about older women married to younger men and see how many participate.  Few if any I guess.  Instead you interject your ridiculous ideas and sidetrack a thread that could prove helpful.
KenC

 If marriage with a big gap was  my own concern I would start such a thread And for sure I would be interested mostly not in opinion of old women but in opinions of young males Because it's more young part who makes the final decision to stay or not  in such marriages but not older ones. ( whatever they would think and whatever they would try to do)

 Now I spare you from my noisy posts and leave to brag here what YOU get in such union ( a question what your women get is too silly to be asked like I got it)

[KenC]

If marriage with a big gap was  my own concern I would start such a thread And for sure I would be interested mostly not in opinion of old women but in opinions of young males Because it's more young part who makes the final decision to stay or not  in such marriages but not older ones. ( whatever they would think and whatever they would try to do)

 Now I spare you from my noisy posts and leave to brag here what YOU get in such union ( a question what your women get is too silly to be asked like I got it)

Elen,
Want to try this again in English?
KenC

[Elen]

Elen,
Want to try this again in English?
KenC

Why in English?   I "l try it in Russian after all you married RUSSIAN woman for 9 years Even dunderhead woudl learn some Russian for this period

 So
Если б меня персонально интересовало замужество с большой разницей в возрасте , я б завела такой топик. И определенно меня б интересовало б  больше мнение не старух , а молодых мужиков Потому что это молодая, а не старая , сторона, кто принимает окончательное решение оставаться или нет в таких браках ( что бы старая сторона ни думала там себе, и что бы она ни пыталась сделать там что-то)
А теперь я избавляю вас от моих назойливых постов и оставляю вас хвастаться здесь тем, что вы получаете в таких союзах ( вопрос , что ваши женщины получают слишком глуп, чтобы его задавать, как я это поняла)

[KenC]

Why in English?   I "l try it in Russian after all you married RUSSIAN woman for 9 years Even dunderhead woudl learn some Russian for this period

 So
Если б меня персонально интересовало замужество с большой разницей в возрасте , я б завела такой топик. И определенно меня б интересовало б  больше мнение не старух , а молодых мужиков Потому что это молодая, а не старая , сторона, кто принимает окончательное решение оставаться или нет в таких браках ( что бы старая сторона ни думала там себе, и что бы она ни пыталась сделать там что-то)
А теперь я избавляю вас от моих назойливых постов и оставляю вас хвастаться здесь тем, что вы получаете в таких союзах ( вопрос , что ваши женщины получают слишком глуп, чтобы его задавать, как я это поняла)

Elen,
That might be relevant if I was to live in Russia or if this was a Russian forum, but I will not and this happens to be an English forum.  It is you that has to adapt, not me.  Adapt or leave, your choice.
KenC

[Elen]

Elen,
That might be relevant if I was to live in Russia or if this was a Russian forum, but I will not and this happens to be an English forum.  It is you that has to adapt, not me.  Adapt or leave, your choice.
KenC

 How nice  and how polite  and what a big desire to communicate with other culture
Thank I'll add this to thread about American hypocrisy