Too many women...

[Elen]

My view is after 2 months maximum they both have to severe any connections with other people and take all necessary measures to alley any suspicions to their partner that they are continue doing it!

 "any connetion" means to stop to chat on phone and to send SMS as well those who now "are just friends" does not it?  

[wiz]

"any connetion" means to stop to chat at phone and to send SMS as well with those who now "are just friends" does not?  

Helen

You have to learn to differentiate between past lovers, prospective new people and Platonic friends. There is a huge difference between the two, don't you agree?

I am sure if one of the partners is not happy about a person and has a good reason then of course you stop any communication.

Are you trying to justify your previous comments about women can continue looking for other men till the wedding day?

I know as a woman you want to keep all your options open until the wedding day but then when and how are you going to build TRUST which is important in any relationship to survive?

[Elen]

I 'have to" nothing to anybody. I'm old enough to know perfectly how past lover could turn in a blink of eye into present ones  ( espesially when tsome troubles with present partner appeared at horisont) So - no formers lover a-ka "present friends" 

( BTW I didn't read carefully your story but were not there words about a possability to refresh your relationship with Olga after you thought you broke ( for one more time) with Sophia ? )


The only "reason" to stop communication with "former lovers" is feelings of your present partner ( and the same standarts of behaviour for both partners) If such reason is not enough then nothing here to speak about There are always enough reasons to do or not to do something And they are all such reasonable that it's possible to justify any behavior.

I'm trying to justify nothing  here.  I just tell you what are those resonable things for women to behave in this game called internet business.  ( as you males prefer to speak ONLY about resonalble back plans for yourself)

 I personaly never could follow such rules (just very non reasonable feelings always took over my very reasonable brains Such a defect of my personality) 

I have not idea how to build a trust in this internet dating business - too specific thing where a half of "normal" moral and behaviour appears lke  non resonable thing which leads to wasting money and more important to wasting time.   
 I prefer ( and am able only) to build  a trust  in reality And in that reality I never had sex with those who I didn't trust for example And I did trust somebody ONE in current period of time (without any back plans and "testing waters" to the right and to the left ) Such non reasonable behaviour would make an outsider of me in internet business for sure. ( where "some"    males are such sure women "have to" to have sex to 3d dating or "she is not into you" )


 And I trust no one from internet space 

[Gator]

Both the man and woman should remain silent.  The smart woman knows the routine, and any discussion just makes both people uncomfortable.  As Lily stated, the wise woman (and man) will assume the best.

I say this as a romantic, not as a person who is always doing comparative shopping.

Ideally, the two like each other and their feelings strengthen upon meeting.  If so, romance will then follow its natural course regardless of any others. 

In fact, I think it is perfect when the mutual attraction is so strong that there is no need to ask about others.  If there were others, it does not matter because those others obviously are history from this point on. 

That is how I feel with my Kazachka.   Besides, on the rare occasion when  I mentioned another, she gave me a lecture.   So maybe I have been trained by a good and strong RW.

[Elen]

As Lily stated, the wise woman (and man) will assume the best.

 Lily stated that she would assum she was not the only one  is THAT you call like "the best"

[Daveman]

 And I trust no one from internet space 

Could that possibly be a little......... "suspicious"? 



Gator:  Absolutely agreed.  I think bringing up people and events from the past are "stoking the fires" of possible trouble.

Though I have learned a pretty good trick for the present.  If one of her friends annoys you, simply ask a few innocent questions about that friend... and it's not much of a problem after that.. 

[Lily]

Lily stated that she would assum she was not the only one  is THAT you call like "the best"

I really should accompany this opinion with many detailed ifs and whens right from the beginning..Yes, many women would have a different opinion on that. They will not be just one from the many, they want be unique and special...but Totoro and his prospects are very far from this stage of relationships.

If I correctly understand, he only started correspondence with several women and would like to see them all in real. At this point, they all are just penpals, and apparently no one is very special to him so far. A person is allowed to have many friends and no one would blame him for having many acquaintances.

However, a person is allowed to have only one lover, and after one of these women would stand our from the others and they both feel chemistry, only then they should stop shopping around. He may not feel this to any of those women and come home with nothing. But it's life.

[Gator]

Elen wrote,

Lily stated that she would assume she was not the only one  is THAT  "the best"

Yes, that is contradictory in one sense.  However, it is not if Lily has the confidence to believe there could be no better woman than her in this man's plans for this trip (and from what I see of her at RWD, she should feel that way).  More important, as Lily just explained, it is reality.  And reality is better than fantasy.  Pardon my rationalization.

Elen, what you wrote here today impresses me.  It is  very insightful about trust and unreasonable feelings and reasonable brains.  

You talk with other RW.  How many are like you and have little trust for men from the Internet?  

Does this lack of trust mean you would never meet a man from the Internet?  

Or you would meet but have no expectations, and certainly make no promises beyond the first meeting?

[wiz]

I 'have to" nothing to anybody. I'm old enough to know perfectly how past lover could turn in a blink of eye into present ones  ( espesially when tsome troubles with present partner appeared at horisont) So - no formers lover a-ka "present friends" 

( BTW I didn't read carefully your story but were not there words about a possability to refresh your relationship with Olga after you thought you broke ( for one more time) with Sophia ? )


The only "reason" to stop communication with "former lovers" is feelings of your present partner ( and the same standarts of behaviour for both partners) If such reason is not enough then nothing here to speak about There are always enough reasons to do or not to do something And they are all such reasonable that it's possible to justify any behavior.

I'm trying to justify nothing  here.  I just tell you what are those resonable things for women to behave in this game called internet business.  ( as you males prefer to speak ONLY about resonalble back plans for yourself)

 I personaly never could follow such rules (just very non reasonable feelings always took over my very reasonable brains Such a defect of my personality) 

I have not idea how to build a trust in this internet dating business - too specific thing where a half of "normal" moral and behaviour appears lke  non resonable thing which leads to wasting money and more important to wasting time.   
 I prefer ( and am able only) to build  a trust  in reality And in that reality I never had sex with those who I didn't trust for example And I did trust somebody ONE in current period of time (without any back plans and "testing waters" to the right and to the left ) Such non reasonable behaviour would make an outsider of me in internet business for sure. ( where "some"    males are such sure women "have to" to have sex to 3d dating or "she is not into you" )


 And I trust no one from internet space 

No I said I lost all my contacts and now I have to renew them with NO reference to Olga.

My answer to all your comments is there on the dilemma to read.

Gato said:

In fact, I think it is perfect when the mutual attraction is so strong that there is no need to ask about others.  If there were others, it does not matter because those others obviously are history from this point on

Sofia had different ideas and you know the result.

Can you consider this: We were having a relationship for 7 months and we spent together more than 4 and half months 24/7 like a husband and wife. Last Christmas we were totally on our own for 2 months with no external interference and that should have given her the security about my total commitment to her.

Don't you think that was sufficient time to establish trust between us?

I think my case with Sofia was different from other couples who met on the internet. The  reason is that I don't have to work and I can travel any time I wan and stay as long as I like elsewhere and we took advandage of that.

[Bruno]

Does this lack of trust mean you would never meet a man from the Internet? 

But Elen have already meet some Western man from these or other forum... simply take with you some cheese by example 

More serious, Elen is already married but she have already help some Western guys for the "logistic" part of a trip... transit from one airport to the other, and other thing... don't need to name these here who have already meet Elen but i am sure that they will confirm that she is a friendly lady...

[Daveman]

but i am sure that they will confirm that she is a friendly lady...

Without question she is.  Also extremely clever.  I had a little trouble reading her posts at first, but now that I've caught on to her grammar habits, let's just say.. it would be very interesting to chat with her in her own language (if I could understand it).. however, I would not relish the thought of a debate with her where language is not a factor. 

[Gator]

Thanks Bruno for the information. 

Elen is married.  Great.  I guess this means that newbies should not hit on Elen.

My participation is relatively recent here, so I am ignorant of Elen's history here.

[Jumper]

wiz said

Don't women do the same?

They meet several men before they find the right one and they don't disclose in advance their meetings.

elen replied

Yes It's just males have difficults with accepting ( really accepting)  such fact

nice generalization elen..

I have no trouble accepting the fact that a RW listed with a marriage agency plans to meet as many men thru that medium ,and locally , that she finds interesting.


it is afterall the reality, if she doesnt, she is strange , unrealistically romantic, or foolish, neither of which i would want in a partner.

as it is afterall just MEETINGS, untill something further developes.
if she is interested in meeting me friday, she may very well be interested in meeting fred, or sergie , on saturday for lunch as well..
imagine!



you can keep alluding to
*well this is how it is in the international dating scene*

but honestly this is how it is in life, period,
no asterisks needed!!

people meet each other everyday, eventually they meet someone they connect with.

they dont generally go around thier life, stating thier intents
of whom and where they are meeting someone, wether they know about it, or it will be random.
its just a given that when they leave thier home, they will interact with other human beings.
if simply meeting a new girl in my home city..
i have every expectation she may be dating other guys as well ,
or certainly open to meeting them..
that would be no different than if shes from LA , new york or moscow.
she should expect the same of men she is meeting
UNLESS something has been established in thier communication beforehand.


My wife knew of certainlty i would meet anyone interesting ,that was also interested in meeting me.
in any city , anytime.
wether thru agency, or random flirting in a public place.

we had no in depth communication beforehand other than a few communications to see if we were interested in meeting each other.

yes i knew for certain as well, that any man that truly caught her interest,locally or foriegn,  she would  see if she wanted to.
being single, and unattached, isnt that normal and healthy?

thats life, and natural..
why put anything else into the international dating part of it?


If people want to build a relationship thru phone and emails first, then thats another story.
but where is that line  drawn?

if i wrote three times?
5 times?
or isnt it more important what was said between the two people regadless of amount of times contacted?


" i am interested in meeting you" does not need to be prefaced with
"i am interested in meeting svetlana  also"

just as
"i am interested in meeting you"
does not need to be prefaced with
"i am interested in meeting Vadik also"
 

anything else at that early of stage,before even meeting each other for tea,
  is an attempt to control the other person already.
wether its the man or woman, not a particularly healthy way to start a relationship IMHO.

for the life of me i cant understand why this debate always comes up..
a RW asking if a man is coming to her country to visit more than her..
needs to then also ask if that man is stopping in miami , tulsa or st loius and visiting anybody this week, last week or on his way to russia,.,
whats the difference?
but they wouldnt THINK to carry it that far..
why ? because it isnt normal at that early stage of a relationship.

but they *would* think to ask if he visits another russian city.. sorry but that distinction is strange,and not truly "normal"

just as it isnt normal for a WM to ask the RW if she had dinner with someone  this week, or plabnning to next week , before he comes to meet her..
is strange to do so,
its none of his business at such an early stage..

isn't it soon enough to be incredibly romatic when you actually meet and understand there is something real between the two of you?


the asterisk* of international dating is that most assuradly  have never met..
isn't that important?

Women that expect the white knight in the white mercedes..to dream only of her(who he hasnt met and doesnt know)
while she pines away for her only true love
(which she hasnt met and dorsnt know)

are very romantic !! and what a great fantasy.
but it is from a childrens book afterall.

I expect a little more maturity i guess, and yes i think you can still be a romatic at heart,with a grasp of reality !

If i went to meet only one woman,in the FSU, 
 i WOULD expect her to meet any man she found interesting
until we had established some relationship face to face.

just exactly the same as when i wiould eet a brazilian wokan, abn american woman , or a canadian woman..

The weird nuiances of putting extra pressure ,or expectations, on the situation because its simply in the FSU is bizarre to me.

i know i paint a rather drab pratical picture to the hopeless romantics out there..lol
and i wont get into the silly details,
but you are welcome to ask my wife if she views me as practical , or very romantic.. the answer might surprise you.

[TwoBitBandit]

Well said, AJ.  I couldn't agree more.

[WmGO]

Elen uses a lot of dry sarcastic humor in her posts so this needs to be understood when trying to understand what she is saying, especially when she is debating someone. I like that kind of humor myself, but I have found that it is often misunderstood when you are just typing it as opposed to an in person colloquy.

[Totoro]

just exactly the same as when i wiould eet a brazilian wokan, abn american woman , or a canadian woman..

AJ, it seems to me that the very thought of meeting a Brazilian woman makes your fingers go wild on the keyboard ^_^
While I can understand that feeling perfectly, man, maybe your wife/fiance is going to be less understanding ^_^

[ScottinCrimea]

Totoro, I think you need to read AJ's post several times.  Basically what he's saying is to treat this as much as possible like you would any other dating situation (I know there are some differences but let's not go there now).  If you were going to meet someone for dinner tonight would you tell them that, "Oh, by the way, I'm meeting another woman for lunch before I see you."?  And would you want to hear about the great weekend she's planning with another man?  The less said the better in the early stages.  If a woman presses you on the issue at an early stage, especially before you have even met, it's a red flag.

My personal feeling is that WMVM does not mean WMSWM (write many, sleep with many).  A gentleman just doesn't do that.  I think at the point where you're ready to sleep with one, the list should have been narrowed to just that one.  Now if there isn't sexual compatibility, then you can move on, just like you would if there was no compatibility in other areas.

I don't feel that one can ask for exclusiveness from the other.  One can only offer their own when they feel that they are serious about the other person and sense that the other feels the same.

The other problem that I see with informing the women that you plan to see others is that it seems like you are saying, "I'm a hot guy with a lot of women interested in me so you better put on your best performance while I'm there because the competition's tough."  Who can be themself in such a scenario?  It would be the same as your girlfriend saying, "I'm going to be comparing your sexual performance with a few other guys to see if you measure up."  Not only will you not measure up, you probably couldn't even get it up under such pressure.

So my recommendation is to not bring the subject up and if she does, either deflect the question or just respond with, "And why do you ask?"

[mirror]

Totoro, I think you need to read AJ's post several times.  Basically what he's saying is to treat this as much as possible like you would any other dating situation (I know there are some differences but let's not go there now).  If you were going to meet someone for dinner tonight would you tell them that, "Oh, by the way, I'm meeting another woman for lunch before I see you."?  And would you want to hear about the great weekend she's lanning with another man?  The lsee said the better in the early stges.  If a woman presses you on the issue at an early stage, especially before you have even met, it's a red flag.

My personal feeling is that WMVM does not mean WMSWM (write many, sleep with many).  A gentleman just doesn't do that.  I think at the point where you're ready to sleep with one, the list should have been narrowed to just that one.  Now if there isn't sexual compatibility, then you can move on, just like you would if there was no compatibility in other areas.

I don't feel that one can ask for exclusiveness from the other.  One can only offer their own when they feel that they are serious about the other person and sense that the other feels the same.

The other problem that I see with informing the women that you plan to see others is that it seems like you are saying, "I'm a hot guy with a lot of women interested in me so you better put on your best performance while I'm there because the competition's tough."  Who can be themself in such a scenario?  It would be the same as your girlfriend saying, "I'm going to be comparing your sexual performance with a few other guys to see if you measure up."  Not only will you not measure up, you probably couldn't even get it up under such pressure.

So my recommendation is to not bring the subject up and if she does, either deflect the question or just respond with, "And why do you ask?"

I have an impression that Totoro is not very far from relationship he is ready to begin a relationship soon. He is impatient (fire) to meet.  And I really think this trip can give him the answer with whom (or maybe with nobody).

I ask if Totoro will meet this special woman (I mean if Totoro will have a chemistry) how will he behave with this lady? Yes, my darling I like you but tomorrow I am going to meet next? (it is more worse if Totoro will say that for himself only).

I afraid Totoro can be really s…-turist without a big clearness what he wants and without a stable position in this subject. Be carefull!

I can see different opinions and advices from many men here and I am very surprised. If I would be on Totoro’s place I would  ask all of them about their own experiences with women-how did they beginn and what have they got now? (a start and a result). 

Totoro, I think you didn’t expect that women could discuss with men about your future meetings. 


 

[ScottinCrimea]

I think Sofia makes a legitimate point that if we are giving advice on the WOVO vs WMVM issue we should state what we did and how it worked out.  So for the record, I wrote two for several months, then narrowed it down to one and wrote to only her for a few months.  I then visited only her with no backup plan other than enjoying a nice vacation alone in a new place if it didn't work out.  Three years later, we're happily married, living in Crimea and going strong.  WOVO worked for me.

[mirror]

I think Sofia makes a legitimate point that if we are giving advice on the WOVO vs WMVM issue we should state what we did and how it worked out.  So for the record, I wrote two for several months, then narrowed it down to one and wrote to only her for a few months.  I then visited only her with no backup plan other than enjoying a nice vacation alone in a new place if it didn't work out.  Three years later, we're happily married, living in Crimea and going strong.  WOVO worked for me.

BRAVO! Excellent!

[Jumper]

Scott-
you summarized my post into
" keep this as close as possible to regular life situations"

exactly!

mirror- per your request..

I did not have long correspondence with anyone..
met many RW,
 and met just as many women any where else i was at in the world as I did in the FSU.
( i have lived semi long term, and traveled all over, with my job)

I did not seek RW exclusively,nor was a set on marriage to a RW.
I was seriuos about getting married to the correct person,if i met them,  not a nationality.
i tried to kept my meetings in the FSU , and emails or phone calls with with RW, the same as i would with local women i dated as well.

I did meet many nice RW.. and one in particular that we enjoyed each others company very much , and continued the relationship
to see what would develope.We have been married a bit over 3 years now,and known each other 5 or so.

i think there are many ways to approach this, and there is no single correct answer.

but my philoshy was to do the same , and be the same person, there as i would be anywhere else in any situation.
and try to keep the whol einternational dating "mumbo jumbo , out of it as much as possible.

ione way to do this is have a commob language,, by both studying russian well, and meeting RW that have some good english skills.
the other is to not treat dating or simple meetings as anything more than what they are.. a chance to meet someone that might turn into something special in time.

Toroto- sorry for the typos , i'm well known for them.

(and lived a few years in brazil, lol
and my wife wouldnt mind, she knows shes the sun in my sky )

 

[DKMM]

What Sofie mentioned brings to light another aspect of the WMVM method.  In that if you find someone that you really connect with, how do you handle still meeting others on your trip?  I can see that working fine with a WNVM because you still don't know what lies ahead, but if you've written many, you will have an idea of who's next.

Kuna's case is a perfect example.  He wrote some and went to meet them.  It sounded like a solid plan, except that he obviously met the one he was most interested in, and the others were in reality backups.  His first girl was the one he connected with naturally and he kinda wishes he didn't go waste valuable time with meeting the others.  Not to mention, what if his 1st girl couldn't handle him doing that and decided to bail.  Then he would have lost the girl he is now going to marry.

WMVM brings about tough choices with a side of careful diplomacy.  I'm finding it a very difficult road to go down.

[mirror]

What Sofie mentioned brings to light another aspect of the WMVM method.  In that if you find someone that you really connect with, how do you handle still meeting others on your trip?  I can see that working fine with a WNVM because you still don't know what lies ahead, but if you've written many, you will have an idea of who's next.

Kuna's case is a perfect example.  He wrote some and went to meet them.  It sounded like a solid plan, except that he obviously met the one he was most interested in, and the others were in reality backups.  His first girl was the one he connected with naturally and he kinda wishes he didn't go waste valuable time with meeting the others.  Not to mention, what if his 1st girl couldn't handle him doing that and decided to bail.  Then he would have lost the girl he is now going to marry.

WMVM brings about tough choices with a side of careful diplomacy.  I'm finding it a very difficult road to go down.

my congratulation!

it is very suitable words CAREFUL DIPLOMACY.

[Kuna]

What Sofie mentioned brings to light another aspect of the WMVM method.  In that if you find someone that you really connect with, how do you handle still meeting others on your trip?  I can see that working fine with a WNVM because you still don't know what lies ahead, but if you've written many, you will have an idea of who's next.

Kuna's case is a perfect example.  He wrote some and went to meet them.  It sounded like a solid plan, except that he obviously met the one he was most interested in, and the others were in reality backups.  His first girl was the one he connected with naturally and he kinda wishes he didn't go waste valuable time with meeting the others.  Not to mention, what if his 1st girl couldn't handle him doing that and decided to bail.  Then he would have lost the girl he is now going to marry.

WMVM brings about tough choices with a side of careful diplomacy.  I'm finding it a very difficult road to go down.

This is such a complex question...  Did I regret meeting "the other"?  Yes, because I would have like to spend more time with My Girl when I had the chance.

At the time I suggested I go to her town so we could catch up for dinners etc even though she would be working.

On the other hand meeting the other girl convinced me of the strength of my feelings for the one and only girl I want to be with.  There was nothing wrong with the other lady but the whole time my mind was elsewhere.

What a man does is up to him.. I think it's personal choice.  In hindsight I would have just visited one and when we clicked I would have focused all my time and effort on her.

Kuna

[groovlstk]

What Sofie mentioned brings to light another aspect of the WMVM method.  In that if you find someone that you really connect with, how do you handle still meeting others on your trip? 

You may also have to face the prospect of connecting with someone so strongly that you decide meeting with others is pointless. "The search" aspect of this is fun and exhilarating, but nothing in comparison to the moment you realize it's finally over.