More France Bashing

[ScottinCrimea]

We had excellent teachers.  Remember we were a British colony once.

[BillyB]

Think if you deliver a 'payload' to the Russians that they will have a chance to disassemble and copy your technology, then put your humpty dumpty back togehter again in perfect order???

You contradict yourself and your thoughts border on paranoia.

The Russians may not lead the world in innovation, but they do have smart guys that know how to copy and put things back together and keep it working. They aren't that stupid. the hard work of inventing the product is done, copying it is easier. You're not giving Russians enough credit. B-29 was one of them in WW2 and they built a plane that was even better than the B-29 once they understood the technology they didn't invent. The American spy plane that had to do an emergency landing in China after getting involved in a mid air collision was dissasembled and put back together before being returned to America. BC, it happens and with technology worth billions of dollars, why take a chance? Give me your reasons Russians are to be trusted as much as Americans or Europeans when it comes to handling your goods that may be expensive, top secret, or patented?  Russia and China's space programs are cheaper to do business with but many companies don't. What is it that you're thinking that is different from those companies about trusting Russia? If everything was equal, they could save millions of dollars launching their products with Russia and China.

My thoughts on this issue don't border on paranoia, it comes from people who work in the biz.

Mir, all throughout history there is going to be a nation or empire on top. There are good and bad. Do you really believe America is bad for the World? If so, who would you like to be on top and why?

[Mir]

BC

I never said or say that America has been only bad or is only bad.
All I say is to consider each action of the US or any other government rationally and if it looks to be wrong to condemn it.What I can't accept is that US does everything to help the poor defencless nations of the world just because US is such a good world power.
As for who should be on top?, well ideally no one.

[Mir]

America didn't force it's way there. We were invited by their governments because those countries want security and/or American dollars

Billy not that it is exactly the same but invitations can come in many ways:

On the 21st May, 1935, Hitler announced in the Reichstag that Germany did not intend either to attack Austria or to interfere in her internal affairs. On the 1st May, 1936, he publicly coupled Czechoslovakia with Austria in his avowal of peaceful intentions; and so late as the 11th July, 1936, he recognised by treaty the full sovereignty of Austria.

Austria was in fact seized by Germany in the month of March, 1938. For a number of years before that date, the National Socialists in Germany had been cooperating with ,the National Socialists of Austria with the ultimate object of incorporating Austria into the German Reich. The Putsch of July 25th, 1934, which resulted in the assassination of Chancellor Dollfuss, had the seizure of Austria as its object; but the Putsch failed, with the consequence that the National Socialist Party was outlawed in Austria. On the 11th July, 1936, an agreement was entered into between the two countries, Article 1 of which stated:

" The German Government recognises the full sovereignty of the Federated State of Austria in the spirit of the pronouncements of the German Fuehrer and Chancellor of the 21st May, 1935."

Article 2 declared:

" Each of the two Governments regards the inner political order (including the question of Austrian National Socialism) obtaining in the other country as an internal affair of the other country, upon which it will exercise neither direct nor indirect influence."

The National Socialist movement in Austria however continued its illegal activities under cover of secrecy; and the National Socialists of Germany gave the Party active support. The resulting " incidents " were seized upon by the German National Socialists as an excuse for interfering in Austrian affairs. After the conference of the 5th November, 1937, these " incidents " rapidly multiplied. The relationship between the two countries steadily worsened, and finally the Austrian Chancellor Schuschnigg was persuaded by the defendant von Papen and others to seek a conference with Hitler, which took place at Berchtesgaden on the 12th February, 1938. The defendant Keitel was present at the conference, and Dr. Schuschnigg was threatened by Hitler with an immediate invasion of Austria. Schuschnigg finally agreed to grant a political amnesty to various Nazis convicted of crime, and to appoint the Nazi Seyss-Inquart as Minister of the Interior and Security with control of the Police. On the 9th March, 1938, in an attempt to preserve the independence of his country, Dr. Schuschnigg decided to hold a plebiscite on the question of Austrian independence, which was fixed for the 13th March, 1938. Hitler, two days later, sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg that the plebiscite must be withdrawn. In the afternoon and evening of the 11th March, 1938, the defendant Goering made a series of demands upon the Austrian Government, each backed up by ,the threat of invasion. After Schuschnigg had agreed to the cancellation of the plebiscite, another demand was put forward that Schuschnigg must resign, and that the defendant Seyss-Inquart should be appointed Chancellor. In consequence, Schuschnigg resigned, and President Miklas, after at first refusing ,to appoint Seyss-Inquart as Chancellor, gave way and appointed him.

Meanwhile Hitler had given the final order for the German troops to cross the border at dawn an the 12th of March and instructed Seyss-Inquart to use formations of Austrian National Socialists to depose Miklas and to seize control of the Austrian Government. After the order to march had been given to the German troops, Goering telephoned the German Embassy in Vienna and dictated a telegram in which he wished Seyss-Inquart to send to Hitler to justify the military action which had already been ordered.

It was:

" The provisional Austrian Government, which, after the dismissal of the Schuschnigg Government, considers its task to establish peace and order in Austria, sends to the German Government the urgent request to support it in its task and to help it to prevent bloodshed. For this purpose it asks the German Government to send German troops as soon as possible."

Keppler, an official of the German Embassy, replied:

" Well, SA and SS are marching through the streets, but everything is quiet."

After some further discussion, Goering stated:

" Please show him (Seyss-Inquart) the text of the telegram, and do tell him that we are asking him- well, he doesn't even have to send the telegram. All he needs to do is to say 'Agreed'."

Seyss-Inquart never sent the telegram; he never even telegraphed " Agreed."

It appears that as soon as he was appointed Chancellor, some time after 10 p.m., he called Keppler and told him to call up Hitler and transmit his protests against the occupation. This action outraged the defendant Goering, because "it would disturb the rest of the Fuehrer, who wanted to go to Austria the next day." At 11.15 p.m. an official in the Ministry of Propaganda in Berlin telephoned the German Embassy in Vienna and was told by Keppler: " Tell the General Field Marshal that Seyss-Inquart agrees."

At daybreak on the 12th March, 1938, German troops marched into Austria, and met with no resistance. It was announced in the German press that Seyss-Inquart had been appointed the successor to Schuschnigg, and the telegram which Goering had suggested, but which was never sent, was quoted to show that Seyss-Inquart had requested the presence of German troops to prevent disorder. On the 13th March, 1938, a law was passed for the reunion of Austria in the German Reich. Seyss-Inquart demanded that President Miklas should sign this law, but he refused to do so, and resigned his office. He was succeeded by Seyss-Inquart, who signed the law in the name of Austria. This law was then adopted as a law of the Reich by a Reich Cabinet decree issued the same day, and signed by Hitler and the defendants Goering, Frick, von Ribbentrop and Hess.

It was contended before the Tribunal that the annexation of Austria was justified by the strong desire expressed in many quarters for the union of Austria and Germany; that there were many matters in common between the two peoples that made this union desirable; and that in the result the object was achieved without bloodshed.
RE: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/IMTAustria.html

[BC]

Give me your reasons Russians are to be trusted as much as Americans or Europeans when it comes to handling your goods that may be expensive, top secret, or patented?  Russia and China's space programs are cheaper to do business with but many companies don't. What is it that you're thinking that is different from those companies about trusting Russia? If everything was equal, they could save millions of dollars launching their products with Russia and China.

The reason?  Because they are doing it. http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0612/19sarlupe/

BTW, the French with their Arianespace program also seem to be doing quite well, claiming a 50% market share in commercial launches. 

[BillyB]

The reason?  Because they are doing it. http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0612/19sarlupe/

BTW, the French with their Arianespace program also seem to be doing quite well, claiming a 50% market share in commercial launches. 

The fact that the article advertises what the spy satellite does such as looking through clouds and night, who's launching it and from where so other countries could track it's position in space, and gives news more satellites will be launched is "not" top secret stuff and the Russians probably already have that technology. For years, one could buy night vision goggles made in Russia at your local sports store in America.

Simply put, the Russians and Chinese put things in space cheaper than American and Europeans but most country's military and businesses want peace of mind over saving millions of dollars. When you come up with an article that says Russia is getting the lions share of business, then I'll give Russia more credit in the "trust" department.

[SANDRO43]

The big deal with France and the Iraq issue was not so much that they didn't join us

IIRC, France's tepid rapport with the USA goes back much further than Iraq, to the times of President De Gaulle and his "withdrawal" from NATO .

[ScottinCrimea]

Sandro, thanks for the recollections.  They didn't teach us about that in the second grade back in 1966.  I think De Gaulle pissed everyone off at some time or other during his career.

[I/O]

I think De Gaulle pissed everyone off at some time or other during his career.

Scott:  Aawwwww give the guy a little credit.  His legacy is, the tradition he created at least continues.............................(Pissing people off that is)

I/O

[ScottinCrimea]

They have taken his legacy one step further.  He only pissed off people.  Now they piss ON people.

[SANDRO43]

I think De Gaulle pissed everyone off at some time or other during his career.

He certainly did, but don't most independent-minded leaders do that, to a greater or lesser extent ?

I am not a Francophile, but to his historical credit I would list, in chronological order, at least the following:

1. Giving defeated France a measure of self-respect in WWII, by refusing to surrender to the Germans in June 1940, rebelling against Pétain's government and leading the Free French movement.
2. Pushing for an independent France with its own nuclear weapons, and strongly encouraging a "Free Europe" (free of US & USSR influence).
3. Arranging a cease-fire in Algeria and a referendum supporting its independence, finally accomplished on 3 July 1962, AFTER he and his wife narrowly escaped an assassination attempt by OAS (Organisation Armée Secrète, a terrorist group formed by French settlers in Algeria, the so-called piéds noirs, who were obviously reluctant to leave the colony).

He was a man who loved his country profoundly, and had a vision for it which of course could not please all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle).
 

[Cinqsensetdemi]

Ce que je n’aime pas ce sont ces personnes qui ont besoin de juger les autres peuples, il est bien plus facile de juger les autres que de se regarder soi-même et d’être critique vis-à-vis de soi-même. C’est une attitude basique.
Les français aussi ont besoin de juger les autres alors qu’ils ne se connaissent pas eux-mêmes.
Comment une personne peut-elle juger un autre peuple alors que lui-même ne se connaît pas vraiment.
En tant que français vivant en France, comment puis-je juger de ce qui se passe aux Etats-Unis, ou en Russie, ou au Zimbabwe, ou je ne sais où, alors que je ne sais pas tout ce qui se passe en France ?

A méditer… 

[SANDRO43]

5 SA & ½, je dois vous prévenir que l'emploi de langues que ne soient l'anglais est reservé à la partie de RWD appellée "International Forums" (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=33.0 pour le français).

Personne ne va vous répondre ici, même parce que il n'y a pas trop de gens qui connaissent votre langue .

[docetae]

There will be always a relation of love/hate between France and USA. Why ? Both countries are believing they are the best country in the world and that they are right about everything.

About Quebec, a lot of things have changed since 10 years. There is a true division between a minority,open to the world and a bunch of what I will call blue necks ... (same as red neck but blue because of the temperature )

Docetae, mix of french, dutch, spanish and tunisian living in Canada.

[DKMM]

Oui je concours