My Personal Rant - IMBRA sux!

[Simoni]

AND MOTHERS
Just not our wives. . .  Honestly Simoni - all of these problems and issues with women regardless of country can point to the lack of responsibility, abuse or callous behavior by and from men!

I agree, Mac.  And my point is that men who are failures at home often turn to the FSU "market" to find a woman since they can't at home (my goodness, I sound like Andrew!!).   But as BillyB has pointed out, despite the agency hype, FSU women are not submissive at all! 

So the marriages fail, sometimes as the man abuses his foreign wife.

[macman]

Ladies and Gentlement,  This is the beginning of my research into the actual statistics of marriage, abuse and divorce. . .  I will start another thread and try to present a synopsis of my findings for the ease of reading at a later date.  This reading should dispell the abuse argument.  Next up: Divorce rates.   

The proponents of this law also try to bolster their position by referring to a survey by TJC that "found that 50 percent of 175 U.S. legal-aid groups had been approached by abused mail-order brides", http://movingoutmovingon.bloghi.com/2005/11 This statement is misleading - if it's examined more closely, it could mean as low as 88 abuse cases out of estimated 25,000 IMO-facilitated marriages that occurred over the last 5 years (based on Scholes Report of about 4,000 to 6,000 marriages per year; (See Reference Link at bottom of PR) That is, 0.35 percent inter-cultural abuse rate versus estimated 7 percent national abuse rate (See Reference Link at bottom of PR) - in other words, 20 times lower abuse rate in marriages between U.S. men and foreign women than in the general U.S. population.

In summary, the proponents of IMBRA have failed to show any accurate and objective research data on abuse rates of immigrant women who met their husbands through an IMO comparing those rates against the prevailing rate for all U.S. women residents. CADD is totally against any kind of abuse against women. However, CADD believes that IMBRA should be judged based on objective and reliable research and not on misrepresentation of facts, misleading statements or sensationalism.

mm

[groovlstk]

Mac, just my opinion, but rather than fight a battle you have no chance of winning, you should be using this time to schedule your itinerary for your first trip to Russia or Ukraine.

Forget about statistics and fighting IMBRA. Do you really think you can sit in a bar with a group of women who disapprove of what you're doing and show them some numbers and have them suddenly endorse your behavior?

Also, attempting to defend the larger group of men who seek FSU women will always be like the labor of Sysyphus, spending eternity rolling a bolder up a hill, because the Winston Wus and virgin-seeking loonies and sex tourists are not shy about sharing their experiences; these guys are the proverbial tarbabies, the more you struggle to distance yourself from them the more entangled you become.

Besides, there ARE a lot of pathetic guys in this endeavor, do you really want to waste your time defending them?

[macman]

Also, attempting to defend the larger group of men who seek FSU women will always be like the labor of Sysyphus, spending eternity rolling a bolder up a hill, because the Winston Wus and virgin-seeking loonies and sex tourists are not shy about sharing their experiences; these guys are the proverbial tarbabies, the more you struggle to distance yourself from them the more entangled you become.

Besides, there ARE a lot of pathetic guys in this endeavor, do you really want to waste your time defending them?

Hey Groovlstk,

Valid point and well taken!  Sometimes I tend to get on a tangent while educating myself on certain matters of the heart and I don't like the proponents of IMBRA.   Why bore the gang with stat's anyway.  However, I do have to find the truth about divorce rates. . . if this nr can be ascertained - I'd like to know.

 
c ya.
mm

[Gator]

Macman, Please listen to Groovlstk when he says,

there ARE a lot of pathetic guys in this endeavor, do you really want to waste your time defending them?

As with Simoni and the others, I am appalled by the comments that AW are bad.  I think for every AW that is considered "bad", there is "bad" AM for her. Don't the people in the photos below deserve each other?  

Tell us what you find on divorce rates.  Others have tried before you, so good luck.

[macman]

HEY Gator,

You know I'm not a neophite to FSU dating, I am to this whole IMBRA - immagration issue.  My Estonian GF and I went to the US consulate - I gave her the money thinking it was for the summer only and we got a 10 year travel visa right there on the spot, no fuss-no muss -> go figure.

I'm a little Jaded w/ AW right now Gator - all my buddies are gettin' killed in divorce court and my last AW (whom I loved dearly) had/did some stuff that hurt the heart.  Sorry to generalize!  Two sides to everything.

mm

[Gator]

MM wrote,

all my buddies are gettin' killed in divorce court

That is not the AW's fault.  It reflects the American legal system and the attitude of many attorneys to make the process as malicious and contentious as possible (more fees, duh).  And if you bring a RW here, she is protected by the same divorce laws. 

did some stuff that hurt the heart

Everyone here has scars.  I imagine that the two of you shared many great moments, and I hope you agree to: "Better to have loved and lost rather than not loved at all."  Are you still able to trust?   Going to a different country is no guarantee for eternal bliss.

[macman]

Are you still able to trust?

Of course!  One woman's actions does not determine my feelings for another and as you so appropriatly stated some post prior - "know your woman"

But, I'm very observant and cautious these days. . . and the jury is still out on - you know who!

[mspanky]

 You know when you look at success rate you have to look at the overall happiness of couples too. I would bet there are a lot of FW/AM marriages in which the woman has not assimilated to life in the U.S. and therfore afraid to leave the marriage or the guy knocked her up right away and she  may not have a good education to get a good job and stays because she does not know the laws in the U.S.

   I know a guy married to a RW. He thinks she used to love him, but does not anymore. Anyway, as soon as she got to the U.S. she got herself to college and was planning to become a physician's assistance. She personally told someone I know her aim was to leave him AFTER she graduated. As luck would have it,she got pregnant 2 years into her education and now  a few years later she is still married and still has to finish school. Financially she needs to stay with him because if she leaves now,she will basically not be able to afford to rent another place in a great neighborhood,go to school and pay on nanny on just his salary.

I think a lot of times a lack of  financial independence and insecurity to be in a new country definately will make a large number stay in a marriage in which they may be unhappy. So statistics on "success" may be less than we think if you are looking at 2 people together because they want to be above anything else. That is what I call success.

 I have been in a foreign country for up to 6 months at a time and the lack of language skills is difficult enough and really makes you rely on the people you are friends with. I could imagine if I lacked funds and the one friend I lived with was my sole support emotionally and financially. Things would be very rogh. I really believe a large majority stay because they think it is the lesser of 2 evils. Not because of love.

 As someone pointed out, the AM who travel are rarely the cream of the crop. Top that off with large age differences,cultural differences, men who complain about AW but ignore what they may be doing to  attract such low quality women in the U.S., men who misrepresented their income,language barriers, men who may be substance abusers ect I would be shocked to hear the success and HAPPINESS rate is high with the women.

  I would bet the HAPPINESS rate is about 20% on the women's end.

[William3rd]

Personal stats- VAWA cases

consults regarding VAWA from prospective women clients- 24
K1s- 13

consults from men with a VAWA issue/DV charge- 114
K1s- 114

[Turkey]

http://usaimmigrationattorney.com/MarriageLongevityRates.html

"

DIVORCE RATE STATISTIC: As concerns the U.S. domestic divorce rate, the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) reports that domestically the "Divorce Rate" is 3.8 per 1,000 total population over the "Marriage Rate" of 7.5 per 1,000 total population (Data for U.S. 2003). See NCHS Report. (Economist's "World in 2005" reports that the U.S. divorce rate is the highest in the world at 4.7 per 1,000 total population.) This forms the usual basis for the often-cited statistic of at least 50% divorce rate nationally. In contrast, the Latina-American "raw numerical" divorce rate based on our admittedly limited database is significantly lower than 50%. 198 total cases less 29 cases with no marriage equals 169 marriage cases against only 15 divorces produces an astonishingly low divorce rate of barely 9%! While this number may be statistically "exaggerated" due to our imperfect database and many other reasons, all the evidence we have seen thus far suggests that Latina-American divorce rates are at least as good and most probably better than domestic divorce rates. One reason for this, as suggested below, might be that the challenges of long-distance relationships, inter-cultural differences, and visa waiting times encourage people to be more serious and to move slower and more deliberately and with greater commitment in their marriage decisions, which probably tends to put a downward pressure on divorce risk."


http://www.encount.com/statistics/

Looks like with this agency has 38/267 divorces which


http://usaimmigrationattorney.com/images/MarriageMigrationMarkets.pdf


I'm using PDF pages not the page on the document.

Page 39 has a discussion on where the 80% success (20% divorce) figure comes from.


Page 166 is the summary.

Page 92 was very interesting and covered the opinions of foreign women about family life and a quote by an AM.

Page 94 last few sentences before the summary describe the foreign women's feelings about how they feel they are treated in the relationship vs. how society views how htey are treated.


It looks like the only data available is from agencies.  They point towards very low divorce rates but have some serious documentation issues.  The PDF dissertation was very fascinating and I would recommend anyone interested on the subject of international marriages to read it.  I don't really know what the numbers are but, at this point, I am leaning to the less likely to divorce in international marriages.

I wanted to read other threads before touching on some other topics people have been posting on this thread, so TBC.

[macman]

Yo Turk,

Somehow or another, I thought you'd come through. . .

killer stuff - for me anyway!

[William3rd]

That is the 1997 study mandated by INS, which nobody liked at first. Encounters International and Spivak are the ones that lost to Nataliya Fox to the tune of 400,000 dollars.

If you want to talk about IMBRA, this material has already been considered and found to be lacking.

I have my own poster child for IMBRA- a FIFTH fiancee visa petition.

The law is the law and as to how it will work and if it will work, that is decided. Now, how is it to be applied?

[ScottinCrimea]

I have my own personal statistics, which are really all that are important to me.  AM/AW divorce rate 100%.  AM/RW divorce rate 0%.

[macman]

Hey Billy. . .

luv ya man; however, we were talkin' statistical studies, not the interpretation of the law; although, you have some statistics of your own - presented on another post - please be so kind as to share with us/me legal layman what you were presenting.  I think it may have merit.

What concerned me and my passion for the initial post:  skewed representation of facts (normal feminist/liberal stuff) with IMBRA as presented by the Tahirih Justice Center (probably funded by past HillBillary feminist initiatives) and what it may mean to an AM searching for a RW in the future.

I will read all of Turk's stuff research and report back in some form or fashion.  

I KNOW - FORGET THE STAT'S GET ON WITH THE PROGRAM TO FIND THE WOMAN (singular)!

MM

[macman]

Scott, you da man. . . But, I do have some serious questions/challenges to you expat's.  Not today! 


mm

[ScottinCrimea]

I'm definitely one who enjoys playing with data and statistics, but if you have to look to statistics to determine your chance of success or failure in this venture, better to look at the high statistical probablility that you are a loser. (Please, no offense as this is not intended to to point to any specific individual here.  If you took it personally and thought I was talking about you, then I probably was  )

[Turkey]

These are just my feelings so I haven't done a great deal of research yet.   

I've noticed on this thread and others that there are individual who feel that AW are being put upon.  I agree, but I understand that the population on this site is generally men; many of whom have been divorced.  The failed relationship is the cause for the personal dislike.  But the divorce is the result of larger forces in play.

The increase in economic well being has made the traditional marriage (from a economic ) view unnecessary.  There are great benefits though to having a traditional marriage, especially when you have children.  This year was the first year that college education in women became more of a positive effect for children then being married.  Ideally of course, you would both be educated and married.  I'm sure some other study will come along and refute it and it will continue in the wonderful peer review one upsmanship that is academia.

Common sense tells us that kids need there mothers and fathers.  For many fathers and would be fathers, the idea of a family is very attractive.  Those who claim to want 'traditional family values' are referring to the creation of a family where the man, woman and children all work together to make a cohesive unit.  That means that everyone will need to make sacrifices to make it work.  In this case, the husband is the primary bread earner, the wife the primary care giver and the children.... well they have to act really cute and cry a lot (but, they're worth it!!!).  For some reason the notion of specialization seems to work very well in the economic world, but some people feel that this is 'sexism' or 'domination' or 'oppression'.

In America, women have decided to take the career path in large numbers.  This is perfectly fine.  If they want to work like a dog like the men for ungrateful bosses and earn less than what they think they deserve then all the power to them.  But, if their concerns and loyalties are to their job then something suffers.  This something is the family.  The truth of it is that there is only limited time.  Ultimately the she will need to decide, am I a mother or a career woman.  By trying to do both, both suffer.  Yes, I know women will claim that they can do it, but that is a farce.  There are only 24 hours in a day.  That is the reality.  Men certainly don't want to be blamed if their wives careers are shortened or suffers because they had children.  Instead of bringing joy, the kids begin to become a point of conflict.

I think if women want to take the career path, go for it!  If men want to have a traditional family, then go for it!  If that means that one needs to increase their dating pool to other countries, why not?  And I do think that it is the men who are pushing this issue.  There aren't many AW ISO RM sites that I know of.  AW make a lot of money as well and if there was a need then an industry would arise to meet their needs.  So why isn't there?

That brings me to what type of society we have.  We live in a serial monogamous society.   What this means is that couples get together in a series of individual monogamous relationships.  In a pure monogamy society, everyone would match up and stay together.  Instead what is happening is a smaller number of men are marrying more women.  The women (who are assumed to be the mate selectors), are willing to wait for the opportunity to move up the line so to speak.  So they take turns with the more attractive male mates (and more women single than in couples for the first time).  One magazine did a survey of its readers and the response was that 50% of the women wanted to marry a man that made 100k or more (which is only 10% of the men). 

American women want to marry American men.  They do not want to marry other men as indicated by the lack of dating sites catering to this sort of international marriage.  And if I were a AW I would want to marry a AM   The problem is that the AW makes this very difficult and quite frankly from my perspective are not the ideal woman.  And I would point out that it is not just me but it appears 10's of thousands of men want nothing to do with AW.  One can argue what that is but what is patently obvious is that something is amiss with AM-AW relationships that is driving AM to seek women in foreign countries under the most crazy and time consuming conditions.

From my perspective, there is an 'issue' and that 'issue' is being resolved by men leaving the US to other countries searching for compatible mates but AW don't.

That brings us to the other side.  There doesn't seem to be very FM coming to the US for AW and there doesn't seem to be very many AW going overseas.  Riddle me that one Batman.  Maybe there is that I just haven't heard of but the men repeatedly talking about family values and such just might have something to do with it.  Feminism in the way it has matured in America is unattractive for everyone.

On the point of issue regarding 'loser men' in the FSU, I have never been.  I can only recount things that I have read.  In the dissertation above, the author disputes this notion and in fact argues against that notion.  In addition, the happiness with their spouse is higher and is diminished only by the perceptions by society.  If one is concerned with their happiness then one would dismiss the notion that they are 'forced' by economic circumstances to be stuck with the guy and accept that they are happy.  I would suggest again that people read the dissertation.

I would like to hear more on where the 20% of FSUW are happy is coming from.  How did you come up with this number?  Is this just a prejudice or was there an article?  I don't mean to be curt, it's just that men who happen to be married to FSUW and the FSUW who happen to be happily married to WM might take some offence.  I am curious from an educational point and have enjoyed learning about this entire process.

[macman]

(Please, no offense as this is not intended to to point to any specific individual here.  If you took it personally and thought I was talking about you, then I probably was  )

I like that. . .  It's like saying; If you have to ask the price, you shouldn't be here.  Maybe not.  I had my few years in Eesti - maybe it's sticking my toe in the water and my question to the Expat's is coming.  It won't be sweet - but I'm talkin' to myself and my future - I would never offend on purpose.

William, where are ya man?


Thanks again Turk. . .

[BillyB]

Turkey,

I'm skeptical of that link you provided from that attorney who showed divorce rates were low based on his knowledge. Of course that's good for business. He also stated American divorce rates were the highest in the world but that is a misleading statement Anti-American people and special interest groups use often. Americans value marriage more than most countries and with more marriages come more divorces. so we should strictly look at percentages when it comes to judging divorces per nation.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_701500518/marriage_and_divorce_rates.html

FSU nations have some of the highest divorce percentages around. I don't think it's fair to blame all this on the Russian man. As always, choose wisely before marrying.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

[William3rd]

Did I miss something? I was at football practice.

[Turkey]

Turkey,

I'm skeptical of that link you provided from that attorney who showed divorce rates were low based on his knowledge. Of course that's good for business. He also stated American divorce rates were the highest in the world but that is a misleading statement Anti-American people and special interest groups use often. Americans value marriage more than most countries and with more marriages come more divorces. so we should strictly look at percentages when it comes to judging divorces per nation.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_701500518/marriage_and_divorce_rates.html

FSU nations have some of the highest divorce percentages around. I don't think it's fair to blame all this on the Russian man. As always, choose wisely before marrying.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

I agree that the divorce rate is high in FSU and also agree that the fault is not completely the RM's fault.

With that being said though, RM are literally drinking themselves to death.  We don't have a widespread social ill to match the drinking problem that Russia has right now.  We discussed some of this here:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5144.msg88841#msg88841

I don't know of any links at this time of divorce excluding alcohol as a factor with Russian couples.  If you take the 80% that end up in divorce along with the survey results of 92% saying it was because of alcohol, then 72% of all marriages end because of alcohol.  This kind of simplicity is fraught with problems so it's not good to use it as a figure other than to point out the magnitude of the problem that alcoholism is causing in Russia.

[William3rd]

There are a couple of attorneys who post like that but then, to post otherwise is bad for THEIR business.

My file stats are also skewed because my client base was mostly from romance tour guys and girls.

Bottom line- you have to work for success and avoid the common pitfalls that those who have gone before have encountered.

[BC]

I frown when folks use statistics to backup their reasoning.

Why?.. STATISTICS ARE TOTALLY MEANINGLESS FOR THE INDIVIDUAL!!

[BillyB]

STATISTICS ARE TOTALLY MEANINGLESS FOR THE INDIVIDUAL!!

True, one should focus on how they are to achieve success but statistics should be considered because it consist of many individuals. Marriage statistics are even more important because a marriage does not consist of one individual and one individual is not in control of the success of their marriage. You must rely on the behavior of another person for the success of the marriage. People need to know divorce rates are high in most FSU nations so they know what they're getting into and be more cautious instead of reckless after reading agency hype. If there were two roads to my destination, one fill with terrorist and one with mines, I would hope there's somebody I trust with statistics on hand to tell me which road has a better survival rate.

I wish there were only a 20% divorce rate between AM and foreirgn women as noted by some statistics because it would say a lot of favorable things about the compatibility and behavior patterns between two people of different cultures. But I have yet to see it coming from a reliable source.