Acceptable Behaviour and Trip Reports

[Mir]

Jazzy, right on!!!  I want to have your baby!

Bloody Sex Tourist

[CaptB]

Ken C,

You made a comment that most folks in the world are not searching for a "partner" in the world......of which I don't disagree. But "I" came to the RWG....and now the RWD because they are specialized (supposedly) websites attracting persons of disimilar backgrounds.....but with one comon interest......"to find a partner in the FSU". You don't come to cameraquest.com......for questions on auto repair. Forums such as this draw people who have a specific interest in one subject......cars, cameras, horticulture, boats etc. I have been a longtime subscriber to WoodenBoat magazine. You won't find articles(or discussions on their forum)......about "fiberglass" boats here.......just "wooden" boats. There may be info. on history, construction, materials, tools.......but they all relate to "wooden" boats specifically. Whether or not I......or Kuna.....or anyone else slept with dozens or hundreds of women in the past.....has no relevannce here. We are not writing reports on those past exploits. "I" eventually participated in these forums to find a "partner".......not "date" in the FSU. Both subjects are about "women in the FSU"........but the focus is not the same. I will admit that such a trip report will have a certain "entertainment" value for certain individuals........but is that point relevant? I would "enjoy" a thread on many various subjects here at this time.......but they would not be relevant to the content of this forum. Why not make any subject pertaining to FSU women fair game?
Without some focus......the website would become too burdensome......to be of interest.......to anyone.

Do you want this to become an encylopedia.......with only a paragraph on the (original) subject........or a "how to book"......on a specific subject? I would rather have a book.......myself.


Capt B

[CaptB]

Ken C,

Actually......the young guy Matt from California's exploits in Moscow.....juggling the meeting of many women.....was very entertaining. A good how to lesson in how "not" to handle a WMVM trip. But his "intent" was to find a partner. His crash & burn techniques were educational.....whether they worked or not.....in the context that he was searching for a partner. Crash & burn "dating" techniques.....I cannot deny...may have some small value. But......would be more valuable if they pertained to searching for a partner. There are enough sucess/failure trip reports pertaining to "partner search". A trip of just dates.....with no intent......would have limited value. Just my  HO.


Capt B

[KenC]

Capt B,
(Just to be clear), it is your opinion that Pike's T/R has no value because his primary goal was not to seek a wife?
KenC

[Daveman]

Daveman, I think you are playing a bit loose with the definitions.  Every man considers the issue of sex when he travels to the FSU in search of a life partner.  This is normal male mentality.  But to make sex the primary goal of your trip is where the line is crossed over.

Oh come on Davie according to many of your posts you are much more than that , do not allow anyone to break your morals , you went to meet those particular women as your prospective wives but in this or that case something just did not go right, that does not make you a sex tourist

Come on you can not compare Pike with many of great guys who are here, Pike is an extreme I doubt he ever exists sometimes.......maybe that is another agent who has his own purposes , oh only God knows what's on his mind

Scott, Jazzy... I certainly don't consider myself to be a sex tourist.. what I was getting at is that the definition given by Batman is too all encompassing and therefore meaningless. 

The reason I stopped reading the T/R was because it gave my moral compass a spin and my stomach a queasy feeling.  I didn't like it, and I thought the behavior was ridiculous at best.  But, that being said, I hesitate to insert my moralities into the lives of others as my moral compass is only useful for my own guidance and emotional fulfillment. I seek (and hopefully have found) a lady whose  compass aligns with my own.  It would appear that Pike found the same.... women with the same moral definitions as himself. 

I agree here with CaptB in that the morality of the T/R isn't as much of an issue as whether or not it fits into the focused spectrum of the board's acceptable colors. 

[Lily]

I think we are a bit lost in definitions of a sex tourist...Wikipedia and batman give the different ones.

[ScottinCrimea]

Daveman,  I agree.  This board cannot be everything to all people.  We need to decide what our focus is and delete those that do not fit with our stated goal.

[Kvinna]

I skimmed through some of Pike's old posts and he did say he used a pay per month site and another post a while back said he knows of freepersonals and Luckylovers.net.
So for all that's interested and for argument sake, Luckylovers is probably what he used. Women/men there list why they're there such as looking for Marriage, Long-term relationship, short term relationship, Fun, Traveling, Penpal, Friendship, Flirt, and Erotic Chat.

<TITLE>LuckyLovers</TITLE>
<META http-equiv="Cache-Control" content="max-age=259200, must-revalidate">
<META content="text/html; charset=windows-1251" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<META name="description" content="Lucky Lovers международная служба знакомств - международные знакомства в лучше службе знакомств Знакомства с Иностранцами ! Международный клуб знакомств Lucky Lovers ! Знакомство с иностранцем !">
<META name="keywords" content="международная служба знакомств брачное агентство, знакомства с иностранцами, клуб знакомств">

There are women that chose erotic chat, short term relationship and fun. In Russia and Ukraine there are 7138 women listed on Lucky lovers who have chosen at least one or more of those categories which could imply they are "looking for" or "open to" fast/physical action with minimum emotional attachment. After a quick study of the site and people there, I would say it falls halfway between freepersonals and adultfriendfinder.

tell me how many women over 40 y.o. (it is the ages-group that attracted mr. Pike) have choosen erotic chat?

[Bruno]

Actually we're responding to Pike's posts and thread in this and other threads so it's not quite censorship as our posts are allowed to stand.

Great... and what in 6 months ?

When the topic's with reply will not be on anymore on the main page... since the Pike's topic will always be a the top of the main page...

So, let say that it is a "delayed" censorship... or maybe someone will make a post in these topic everyday so it keep the top of the page, just below the Pike's topic...

The name of these forum is RWD... "D" for discussion... agree that a topic can be locked for give the time to write the report but maybe opening it after for comment is something good...

Or maybe Dan can make like in the Jim case... put all the related topic in the same special sub-section... trip of Pike along with the comment...

[Bruno]

As for that "Knock on the Door" or "Phone call" I can confirm the exact same experience from Bucharest to Vladivostock and Odessa to Riga.....and just about every mid to larger sized city in between. It is simply standard issue when one checks into a hotel as a single guy almost anywhere in the FSU. 

Hmmm... it is not related only to FSU... western country have similar system... it is more related to the type of hotel... go to a Hilton hotel and i think that you will not have so proposition ( will maybe change when Paris Hilton will be the boss  )...

Same in US, it can happen... i have only one experience it... of course, it was not a high standing hotel but a little "motel" on the side of the road between Houston and Galverston...

In UK, London, in some chick hotel, you can have a list of recommended escort... they are high class ladies, usually for business men... they can be used for affair diner... and for a few of them like "gift" for the man with who you have conclude a deal !!!

Don't be blind, prostitution is a worldwide problem ( or need ? )...

[batman]

KenC,

I created a topic in the "ask a russian women section" about getting the women perspective of this report. I have modified the topic to get their view of the trip report.

I didn't feel the trip report shows any respect to women and I know women like to be treated with respect the same as men.

That's all I'm trying to point out. I understand your views on casual sex. I don't agree and no number of trips to FSU will change that. I am not trying to force my morals on you to accept. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was. I was simply trying to point out that as a community of people joined in the goal of finding an FSU wife then we need to define some guildelines of decent behavior towards women.

What better way than to get the perspective of a FSU women as Kuna and others pointed out.

Daveman,

If I understand correctly you went to FSU to find a wife on several occassions with the purpose of finding a wife. From my understanding you didn't go there just to have sex with lots of women. I didn't see how your trips fit into Sex touism at all. The 'partially' in my opinion is in reference to tourism. i.e, work and "play" as pike was doing.

I think we should agree to the definition of sex tourism so how about we offer up some more definitions?

[Mir]

I propose we change the name of this forum to

'Russian Women Discussion for Marriage only'

[batman]

ScottinCrimea Said:
"Every man considers the issue of sex when he travels to the FSU in search of a life partner.  This is normal male mentality.  But to make sex the primary goal of your trip is where the line is crossed over."

I think this is spot on. That's my concept of Sex tourism based on the definition I found.

Is there other definitions we should look at?

[Kuna]

 

Nice to see this discussion continued on after some of us had to go and earn some money...  There's a few specific posts that deserve a response (I'll do that in a minute) but I think the comments about "What is the purpose of RWD" is the most important question at hand.

If RWD exits to help (through support or advice) men travelling to FSU for good fun dating (and sex no matter how you can get it) I'm not interested in being here.

If it's about helping men marry a FSUW and supporting your peers - then it's definitely a community I am proud to be a part of.

There's some ridiculous assertions and assumptions above... all that matters for me is understanding the purpose of RWD and feeling confident the management keeps the discussion relevant.

Kuna

[Kuna]

Dan,
Don't include me in your wide paint brush here.  I may have used the terms "son" and "laddy" in reference to Kuna, but those are usually terms of endearment not personal attacks as he seems intent to use. I used those references because of his less than mature reaction here. Please reread the posts and tell me where I didn't just attack the ideas and not the man.  At the same time Kuna has called me some rather nasty names and has alluded to me being a sex tourist and even hinted of being a pedophile.  I guess one has to resort to mud slinging when you don't have the answers to the legitimate questions asked.  
KenC

Oh Ken Ken Ken...  just be honest... Be man enough to stand up for attacks and insults.  "son" and "laddy" weren't used as a term of endearment anymore than my reference to your advanced age was.

I used those references because of his less than mature reaction here. Please reread the posts and tell me where I didn't just attack the ideas and not the man. 

You may accuse me of having a less than mature reaction just as much as I would assert that your views on sex tourism is an indication of your less than mature view of reasonable behaviour and relationships.

You're in favour of trips designed specifically around getting sex... I'm not... It's simple...

Of course some men will go to FSU chasing sex but we know it's only because they can get some hot stuff there compared to the average stuff they're capable of getting at home. 

At the same time Kuna has called me some rather nasty names and has alluded to me being a sex tourist and even hinted of being a pedophile.
KenC

I don't know... were you a sex tourist?  I never see you talk about your personal experiences much so I wouldn't know.  I know you support sex tourism and that's enough for me. 

As for me "hinting" at the paedophile thing... Forgive me if you thought that. I wasn't pushing it that far but you did make a comment to the effect of "If everyone's honest they would admit 16 yr old can be sexually titillating".

Now... if I 20 year old boy bragged about a 16 yr old rubbing her breasts on him and commented on other boys tweaking nipples and sticking hands up dresses I'd think he was immature.

If a 30 year old did the same I would say he was inappropriate.

If someone 50+ years of age does it I'd call him disgusting.

You might see the titillation in this situation but I think it's vile.

Yeah yeah...  16 might be of legal age and a 16 yr old girl might already be having sex with boys her own age but a 50 year old man fantasising about it has a serious problem.

I guess one has to resort to mud slinging when you don't have the answers to the legitimate questions asked. 
KenC

Your legitimate questions were farcical.  You've posed them again so I'll respond again...  It still doesn't change my opinion of your views and support of sex tourists.

[I/O]

are certainly making it Crystal clear that no one should share anything more here than "I went to Russia and then I came back!" KenC

Not such a bad suggestion when it is thought through. 

KenC, let me put it this way, most of the guys here of all age groups have been through a patch in their lives where they have been out and sown a few oats here and there.  You and I are no different in that respect. But don't you find it a little distasteful to see a blow by blow (Pardon the pun) account such as the trip report in question hung up on an interent board of this ilk? Or another way of posing the question, would you hang up an account of your social conquests in as much detail of the period between your divorce and re-marriage?

The activities of the guy are far from abnormal, I don't see any lack of respect for the women involved as I think they were by and large, of his very same ilk, I think Jazz is way off beat in her abuse type thinking, BUT some of us do get to a certain stage, whether by age, maturity or plain crustiness of being well and truely over reading the sort of garbage posted by Pike.  Having read through much of this thread, I have concluded that I am becomming a prude and I shall crawl back under the leaf of that cabbage bush, it was nice in the shade and I never seemed to miss out by remaining silent about intimate matters.

I/O

[catzenmouse]

Well this thing has certainly gone full circle a couple of dozen times now. 

We can continue to follow this circular path, or more properly spiral, for the rest of our lives but the one thing that I find very telling is that the focus of this topic has not, and probably will not, say a word.

That tells me a lot more about the motivations involved than anything.

Ken

[Voyageur]

^{From Scott in Crimea}

Every man considers the issue of sex when he travels to the FSU in search of a life partner.  This is normal male mentality.  But to make sex the primary goal of your trip is where the line is crossed over.

To me, this is the crux of the matter. To mis-represent yourself to women as a sincere  man seeking a wife for the purposes of sex is plain wrong.  To honestly represent yourself as a man who is dating in a foreign country is different, in my opinion.

When we start to speak about censorship of TRs, where do we start to draw the line? I think that RWD is pretty well self-regulating. And if people become reluctant to post their experiences  it can only reduce the effectiveness of the forum in the long run. Dan's post about "white-knights" also rings true in my experience and maybe this could be the reason for some of the anger seen in this thread.

[Kuna]

Kuna.
Let's try this again.  Where is the deception?  The women were all listed on a dating site and not a marriage site.  

OK Ken... just for you because you haven't been able to work it out for yourself.

Deception

I have deduced, based on Pike's own comments, that he decieved the women he bedded.

Some here seem to blame the women for "Opening Their Legs" or being somehow immoral BUT I would be prepared to bet that a character like Pike lead them on to get what he wanted.

Before I start let me say that these women undoubtedly displayed poor judgement.  Actually, when I date women and when I went to FSU a part of my selection process was to measure a womans judgement.  I wouldn't marry someone with poor judgement... but I would't exploit them either.

Now.. deception...  Let's see...

1. Before his trip someone actually asked if he was a sex tourist.  Some of his posts and questions sounded odd at the time.  We know why now;

2. Pike debated whether he should waste time on a woman who wanted to spend several days with him opposed to using that time to squeeze in additional dates EVEN THOUGH HE CONSDERED THE "SEVERAL DAY WOMAN" TO PROBABLY BE A GOOD MATCH.  You work in out with the benefit of hindsight.

3. Dating Sites versus Marriage Sites.  Please tell me which sites he used and what was written in his profile.  Please tell me what he wrote to the women.  SHOW ME THE CORRESPONDENCE.  You assert that he was just telling them he was there for casual fun and they were accepting of that.  That's what he tells us.  I assert that he has been found to be dishonest and manipulative and therefore I deduce that he decieved the women.

4. If these women were such floozies and he is so much a stud why did he have to turn his phone off to avoid calls from other women?  HE WAS DECEIVING THEM!

5. If he was honest with them (just there for dating and sex) and he is such a stud how could he not contrive a threesome or two?  What a loser!!!  Threesomes are more than common at home and if he's such a stud where's his scalps with these so called desperate women (can't get sex without some American gigilo giving them a go) who have such dreadful judgement?

5. Early in his trip Pike attempted to manipulate the women by showing photos of his house and talking about how much money he gives his children.  He was angered by the women that were "so stupid" that they didn't fall for this...  He's obviously not dumb because they wouldn't bang him because he showed photos of the house... He needed to try some other method to get what he wanted. He improved the lie.

6. He was practically salivating when he was describing his attempts to get the women back to his appartment.  How others didn't see his motives at that point is beyond me... but then again almost no one recognised Turbo and vwrw's deception when they lied to the board a few months ago.  It's really not hard to see the reality in the posts here - sometimes it just takes longer than other times.

In closing on the point of deception...  add all those things up...  add the several occassions where we've seen men say one thing and it turns out to be total bullshit when the women have their chance to comment... and understand just a little about human nature and the desperation of old men when they feel their flame flickering... and you'll see (if you've got any sort of grip on reality) that Pike WAS deceiving the women.

Why is Pike a loser and you are not?  Because of your intent to marry?  Why is "dating" not allowed in the fsu?  

Pike is a loser because he deceived and manipulated women so he could get the sex he isn't capable of getting at home.

Pike is also a loser because he started his TR and when his motives became obvious he cried like a little baby and threatened to stop posting.  If Pike was a real man he would have been able to defend his position... but he couldn't... We know he is a limp, saggy old man that fantasised over the 16 yr olds outside his apartment.. and that makes him a loser!

Oh, by the way... I might be a loser... I don't know.  I do know that I treat women with more respect than some and funnily enough women can tell when someone's genuine and when they're just a scumbag.  Some might think I'm a loser because of that but I can live with it.

Oh, I might be a loser because I'm not married yet... or my marriage might not last 5 years like yours... but you might be a loser because your marriage mightn't last the 12 years like my good friend in Oz.  

Why is "dating" not allowed in the fsu?  In the past you even admitted to bedding more than your share of Aussie women.  Why are RW any different?

Dating is allowed in FSU.  Dunno about you but I met nice girls outside of the whole website thing...  None I would marry... but I believe any decent man can meet women in normal situations.

What I think is inappropriate is a man (ANY MAN) going there when his primary motivation is to deceive women to get sex. If a man goes there (even for a WMVM trip) and has sex with several women it's possible he can tell them the truth.  I don't think a guy relying on photos of his house and talking about women will be telling the truth.

If Pike was capable of getting sex on an even playing field he would have met women through means other than marriage sites.  Oh come on Ken... you really don't thik he met all these women off "just dating" sites do you?  You're not that gulible are you?

Don't worry about me.. I've done OK with women... I don't have a need to lie and deceive though.

Oh, FSU women generally aren't any different than the women at home.  If some American is writing to them from a website and ipressing them with photos of houses etc it's pretty clear what he's up to.  What we don't know is what else he told them.  You want to assume he is an upstanding citizen.  I don't.

Maybe when you go on another RWD picnic you can meet up with him and then tell us if he is the type of man you admire.

I don't know about you but I can smell this type of man when I meet them in FSU.  They have a peculiar odour about them.

There is a fine line between showing a woman who you are and luring them with your financial where with all.  So a man should only date women in his own financial status?  
KenC

This part of your "reasonable question" is just irrelivant bullshit to throw everyone off the trail of the real point.

Is it more likely that Pike deceived the women than not?  I think the answer is yes.  Do you support his type of behaviour??? We know the answer is yes.  Not pretty Ken... not pretty!

and finally:

Please quit acting so childish and just discuss this like a man.

I'm discussing it like a man.. and I think I'm acting like a man.  I don't think much of men that support this type of behaviour and I don't think much of you.

I've made many excuses in my mind for you in the past and when I've read some of the stuff you claim I've taken it at face value.

I've seen a different Ken now and I've ended up knowing you're not half the man you'd like to think you are.

[Mir]

50 year old man fantasising about it has a serious problem.

I think any man, even when he is 100 who is not at times fantasising about having sex with a much younger woman has got a problem ( though usually in such fantasies he appears much younger and handsomer then he is)

[Kuna]

From Gator
  As for me, I am going to Kiev next month, and have considered writing a trip report, but wonder if it is worth it.  I would not put it in the sans responses section, as I am not Pike, and don't want the guilt by association.  So that leaves it open to comments, which at times can be quite scathing.  Who wants that?   

DanC,

I would encourage everyone with reasonable intentions to post a TR because it's a great way for us all to learn.  More to the point... they can be very entertaining.

Read TR's by Avi8or, DKMM and others.  Read a wide range of them and you'll get lots of value from them.

If you're traveling to FSU with intentions in-line with this forum I would recommend posting a TR because it's a great way to get support and advice when you're away.

Example:  even though mir gets a hard time in here often he really helped me out with good travel advice when I was on my first trip.  You don't only give value when writing a TR... you can get value too.

The Mods actually do a fairly good job puling people into line in TR's when someone goes off-track.  Unfortunately in the Pike thread they decided to give him the medium to publish his actions without any modration at all.  That is the primary reason this has blown up.

You're going to LOVE Kiev... I hope you will post a TR for everyones benefit (and entertainment).

Best of luck on your trip.

Kuna

[Kuna]

I think any man, even when he is 100 who is not at times fantasising about having sex with a much younger woman has got a problem ( though usually in such fantasies he appears much younger and handsomer then he is)

Are you playing with semantics mir???

Either you are or we're very different people.. I don't fantasise about 16 yr olds.

[Sohkay]

It's interesting to watch as Kuna is now saying that if you don't support censorship, or if you support read-only trip reports, it naturally follows that you support sex tourism and pedophilia. Of course, this is absurd.

This is an age old tactic. Used by the Nazis, for example.

I can just see Pike, sitting in front of his computer and having a 14 page chuckle about how he was able to get some people to play right into his hands.

[Gator]

CaptB introduces a good point that the goal of this forum is MARRIAGE.  

Psychologists are convinced that men and woman are hardwired to live as couples.  People who avoid emotional attachment have psychological issues, and frankly I do not want to read their tripe.  Smooth Operator at RWG is a prime example.

[William3rd]

Oh boy- now we get to see the Nazi card being played. Losing arguments just have to trot out the Nazi card.


I shouldnt have come back to look at this thread. . . .