The Distance Factor

[Shadow]

Shadow,

What the Sam Hell ae you talking about?

TigerPaws

I am talking about the reverse side here. Often expect that women receive letters and meet ony them, however they find it aceptable if they write and meet many. I vote for single standards. If you are going to meet many women, accept that these women will also meet many men. Once you both agree on being a match that should change of course.

[TigerPaws]

I am talking about the reverse side here. Often expect that women receive letters and meet ony them, however they find it aceptable if they write and meet many. I vote for single standards. If you are going to meet many women, accept that these women will also meet many men. Once you both agree on being a match that should change of course.

Shadow,

 That goes without saying, but for the most part 95 plus percent of the men writing any given lady will not meet her, so that is really a minor issue. My lady received hundereds and hundreds of letters for months before I me her and it was not a issue so I do not see it as an issue.

TigerPaws

[Kuna]

Simoni... Maybe you've missed the point of my questions and maybe feel a little too defensive... I can't believe that it's all down to "luck".. Some people are more logical... some are better comunicators... some are more gulible...  some have more exerience with women at home...  some have greater emotional intelligence.. some are more... well you know what I mean.  We're all individuals and I can't put my "good fortune" down to "dumb luck".  I didn't go stumbling into Kiev hoping that chemistry would materialise...I feel like I prepared and was rewarded for it... (please keep in mind there are things I would have definitely done differently if I had my time over again - my approach was NOT perfect!)

What advice can we give to increase the chances of success for those that are most comfortable with WOVO?

Quote from: Kuna on Yesterday at 17:50:26
This is the only certainty in WOVO...  but I wonder if I can ask you a question Simoni without anyone getting offended, defensive or angry???I see nothing offensive at all about the question.  I'm simpy saying that the odds are that meting your dream girl in one trip, if it's a WOVO trip, are long...

(I'm honestly just trying to open a discussion I haven't seen here before)...

You took 3 x WOVO trips and 3 (in total) WMVM trips...  Other men (like Turbo for instance) took 10 years to find his girl...  others have had long, hard and expensive journeys before they found what they were looking for...***

I won't answer for Turbo.  But you seem to think many trips are a failure?  Nope.  You go until you find the best girl for you.  Looking back, I could have been happy with one of the first three WOVO....but not half as happy as the girl that stay the course got me.

But I'll add that without the WOVO mentality, I would have had more dates and met more girls more quickly

I don't think many trips are a failure... but I doubt you goal would have been to take 6 trips to find your wife...  Your JOURNEY was successful but I wonder what you would have done differently on your WOVO trips to increase your chances of success.

If chemistry is such a random thing it might have been dumb luck it ony took 6 trips... I'd like to think we can do things (and recommend to others that we would do things in future) that would improve the chances of success... otherwise it's just a numbers game... and that sounds pretty random???

There's no doubt you have the best girl for you NOW... but why do you think you weren't able to identify "better"matchs than you chose on your first trips?  You seem to put it down to luck ...  maybe it's me looking for purpose in the things I do... I just wonder what you would have done differently when choosing to meet ther first three WOVO girls?
.


I wonder...  what made it so difficult for those that needed MANY trips (as opposed to a few because its possible to have bad luck or be ripped off by an agency)... ***

It's luck, Kuna.  And I maintain that email attraction and real life attraction are different, and one can't tell by email how real life chemistry will be.

Just to reiterate... I think I was lucky to have found my girl on freepersonals because by the time I wrote to her she'd given up on responding to messages.  There were too many and too many offering marriage in email.  I took the advice I'd read and wrote a letter that certainly got her attention.  that wasn't luck.  I tried to remain unemotional and logical throughout and feel that helped me qualify the ones I was writing too...  There MAY be an element of luck but if we're not relying on luck what can we recommend (based on our experiences) to improve the chances of future newbies?


Were the expectations realistic in the beginning???***

No, WOVO expectations are not realistic IMHO.  The odds are you will strike out with one.

Sorry, I wasn't asking if the expectations of WOVO were realistic... I was asking if you (generically) were realistic about the girl you were meeting when you made the decision to WOVO?

Whether we like it or not others will jut be more comfortable with WOVO...  They won't be comfortable with WMVm..  I'm hoping to arrive at some advice they can read and digest to improve their chances...

Was it being underprepared in the earlier trips? (I met men on my trips that literally thought they could hit the ground and pick a wife from a catalogue... of COURSE they failed)***

In my case, the first trip was trusting the email bond that had been formed.

This kinda answes my previous point.  I have no doubt I would have "trusted" teh correspondence more if I hadn't found RWD before starting my correspondence (I attribute my mental approach and much of my prep to the members here... 

A man being "underprepared" might manifest itself purely through his "inexperience" (lack of time on the ground) OR through a lack of reference points from others that might have added more reality...

Was there some other factor that made it so difficult?***No, it's just that one can't tell if you are attracted to a person until you meet them in real life.  No amount of preparation can overcome lack of chemistry, nor should it.

Chemistry is DEFINITELY a factor but I've read TR's in here where men had a shakey start with a girl yet they felt there "could" be more if they persisted...  in one case they clicked (one assumes some would call that chemistry) but I wonder if it's a matter (for some) of CONFIRMING chemistry more than anything.

It's true that you can be attracted to someone in email but is that a result of the other persons actions or the "attracted one" filling in the gaps with warm heart felt fantasies?...

Dunno???  I'm not sure what I'll end up thinking in the end... again though... I'm just contemplating what we can suggest to those who follow us that will improve their chances...

I know some men will say THEY didn't find what they were looking for but it's likely they were meeting girls that rejected them at times too... ***

Every single WOVO girl wanted me.  I was the one that rejected them.  But why would a girl you have no chemist with want to marry you?  Unpure motives, for sure.

I'm sure they all wanted you and I'm sure you rejected them...  but why do you think you went on 3 WOVO trips and then 3 WMVM trips before meeting someone that satisfied the standards you set?

Just bad luck?  Maybe unrealistic expectations?  Maybe poor preparation (i.e. no sound reference points or advice before you committed so much time to your search)?... I just wonder if you think you could have done anything differently or whether you really believe it's just random - and therefore a numbers game?

We know the agencies spin a whole heap of BS that would make men think they can go to FSU and marry a beautiful, intelligent, family oriented girl - but it's not as easy as that now days... (depending on the man).***

Agencies work fine, if you have an honest agency and are willing to date enough girls.  Once again, it's not like the first girl you date will be the "one for you."  Very unlikely.

I can't debate if agencies work fine because I didn't use one... I am surprised I found My Girl on freepersonals even though I'd joined and written to girls from Elena's Models... There's still the fact that many approaches work for different people...  I agree though that no one should expect the "first one" to be "THE one".

Personally, reading this board scared the crap out of me before my first trip therefore I set a number of contingencies in place that weren't needed at the end of the day... I don't put my "first trip success" down to luck because I know it was bloody hard work.***

All the prep in the world still needs luck. In my case, I had romanced the girl hard, written daily letters, etc. But when I was with her, despite her amazing beauty, I felt nothing for her.  So I bailed.

OK, I mght have wasted a lot of time here beause I've just got to this part and it might the the crux of the discussion...

You romanced the girl hard?  Why?  Did you feel you needed to? 

My approach was to QUALIFY them hard right throughout the correspondence to try to make sure I wasn't wasting my time.  We should all keep in mind that we're all attracted by different things and PERSONALITY and CHARACTER come before "amazing beauty" for me.  Of course looks are important but I'm honestly not as impressed with looks anywhere near as much as I'm impressed by character...

I'm just wondering if we can explore the question "What is it about WOVO that makes it risky?"  Sure, lack of chemistry is the issue in a lot of cases but WHY were there unrealistic expectations?

Studio photos?***

Most of the girls I met looked better in real life than in photos.  Personality adds life to a picture.

Agreed!

Deceptive correspondence?***

Don't think so, in my case.  It was just lack of chemistry.

Deceptive sounds harsh... If you "romanced them hard" were you setting unrealistic expectations of your first meeting?

Agency Scams?***

I did encouter at least two scammers in the 50 or so I dated that I know of.  Neither girl was with an agency.  One was just an accidentail meeting in the FSU.  The other wrote me from Elena's models.

It'd interesting to hear of the ratio of scammers to REAL girls from other men... I'd concur with the ratio you mentioend here... I wonder if it's fair to say at least 1 in 25 are scammers.  I had a few scammers (maybe 3) out fo the 40 girls I chose to write to...

It's also really interesting that you comment on the girl from Elena's Models contacting you... I reckon this is a pretty sure sign of danger...  but that's just my feeling and I felt like that before I started writing.  I never responded to any incoming messages because I figured that I knew what I wanted and I'd written to all the girls that met my pre-determined criteria...  I would ask myself "Why respond to her if I didn't write first"?

Pro-daters?***

I did have dates with a couple of pro-daters on WMVM trips.  But since you have so many options, you just move on...

Agree...a skilled pro-dater would be hard to identify before meeting. I had one girl from Zap I was writing to who seemed great but as we got more confortable in our correspondence I felt like she was dropping hints.. or at the very least too focused on $'s... I said goodbye because that was opposed to my written Key Selection Criteria...

etc...

And if we can understand that HOW can we minimise these risks?***

I'll repeat, you don't write letters for months.  Write 2 or 3 letters and go meet the girl.  And have back-up.  In short, make FSU dating like dating at home.  Meet the girls, have fun with them.  In time, you may get lucky and find a great girl.  I did.

 

Dude... dictating what someone should do devalues your ability to give good advice.  I repeat... you CAN write letters for months... it worked for me.  There's other men here it worked for too but I still ponder what we could suggest to others who follow us and choose to do that to would improve their chances of success.

Some men just aren't going to be comfortable with WMVM>>>  It's not within their comfort zone..If someone wants to WOVO I continue to wonder what the best advice is that we coud give them to help improve their chances of success?

Those that "were lucky" might reflect on their atitude and approach at the time... Some that didn't find success this way might have, at some point, sat back and thought, "Gee, if I did that trip over again I woud have done XYZ differently".

Simoni,  Sorry for pulling your post apart but I reckon there ARE many ways to succeed at this... if someone is more comfortable with WOVO how can we help them reduce the risks???

(Backup plans are a must at all times because you can't guarantee anything... I'd like to think we can help reduce the risks for those that DO choose WOVO.  It's an approach that won't go away even if it hsn't worked for others in the past.)

Cheers,

Kuna



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Again,  I don't think it's pure luck...  I feel like I learned enough from "the tough nuts in here" and contaned my enthusiasm/fantasy/

[groovlstk]

I'd have to agree w/Simoni that luck is a large factor, at least it was in my experience.

Like Simoni, I made many trips to Russia and Ukraine, met many girls, had several girls tell me they loved me, even fell for several girls... But always something wasn't right and I couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger. Near the end of my search, I sometimes thought I'd fallen victim to the "kid in a candy store" syndrome, and that I'd never be satisfied.

There are married guys on this site who met their wives in their very first visits to the FSU. They've stood the test of time. Certainly they had a lot going for themselves, but they were also extraordinarily lucky.

Currently, there seems to be a lot of guys in the visa process who met their wives on their first trip. They may consider their quest a "success" (and I hope this doesn't offend anyone) but I'm withholding judgment until she arrives in her new home and has spent some time there. I sincerely hope things work out, but in my checkered experiences with FSU women I have to reluctantly conclude that there may be surprises in store for some of you once she arrives...

I'm fully willing to believe that perhaps I'm not the best communicator or the best judge of character, nor did I have RWD to guide me in the early days of my search; if so, perhaps that's why it took me about 10 trips and dozens of meetings to find my wife.  In all my time of searching I never met a woman who was exactly "as expected" from emails, chat, and phone calls. And that goes for my wife, who was lightyears above and beyond what I expected.

What worked for me was perseverence without letting myself get too discouraged, realistic goals, a refusal to compromise in what I wanted in a relationship, and more perseverence. There's absolutely no way I could have realistically done this in one trip. Even at 10 trips I consider myself extremely lucky.
 

[Simoni]

Simoni... Maybe you've missed the point of my questions and maybe feel a little too defensive...

Kuna, I don't feel defensive at all.  Because I have said twice in this thread there is no right way to go about this.

In terms of your theory that hard work and research can make WOVO work...and remove most of the luck factor...come to my casino 

Yes, lots of letters and finding common agreement on children, morals, religion, etc. can narrow the field. You need that...BUT... you also have to have chemistry.  And letter writing can't reveal that.

Was it Diane Ross that sang "It's in his kiss!" ?   I do know that my wife tells me it's in my smell 

If you find the right girl on the first date, then yes, a large amount of luck is involved.

I'll answer your LONG post later....I'm on vacation dude, and my wife is waiting for me! 

[Mir]

Was it Diane Ross that sang "It's in his kiss!"

Yes Diana Ross and the Supremes released it in 1967 but it was originally Merry Clayton in the early sixties.Many others have done it as well, the last was perhaps Cher.

I do know that my wife tells me it's in my smell

So do you have a special deodorant or is it the sweet smell of success?

[TigerPaws]

Kuna,

 Of all of the girls I met (32) only 1 concerned me as to her motivation, the rest were honest about their desire to fund someone they could love and share a life with. In my communication with far more ladies than you can begin to imagine I found that I could get a pretty good idea about the gal within 3 to 4 letters if is she was someone who I might like to get to know better and possibly meet. This process of meeting someone through correspondence is quite different for anything most men have ever experienced but it worked for me.
 
 To give you a good example I met 6 ladies while I was in St. Petersburg for 2 weeks on my one of my many trips over to the FSU, I had been in correspondence with them for about 7 months before I went to Russia. Now I pretty much knew (or at least thought I knew) which girl I was most interested in, her name was Marina 24 years old a very well educated doctor and from the photo's quite attractive, not beautiful but very nice. Her letters were everything you could every ask for and she was ready to settle down, have a family and share a life together with the right man (and she was pretty sure I was the right man). She met me at the airport along with the translator and driver I had prearranged to meet me when I arrived, Marina was a bit more attractive in person than her photo's so I was not disappointed with her appearance and she was genuinely happy to finally meet me in person. After spending some time with Marina I could begin to see things I did not like but first let me say that I was 43 when I sent out my first letter and 44 when I made my first trip to Russia, at that time I had a 13 year old son and a 9 year old daughter who lived with their mother. I was looking for a lady who was a bit more mature and my initial desire was for a lady who had been divorced but did not have a child, I was hoping that by finding a lady who had been married before hoping that she would at least have some idea what a relationship was all about and what it was like to live 24/7 with a man. I was not interested in raising my own wife having been there and done that I did not want to go through it again. Anyway back to Marina, it did not take me very long to figure out that she had no idea about what it was like to be in a relationship, she had spent all of her time in school and studying to be the best doctor possible which from what I was able to find out she was a very good physician. Marina would have been everything a man could have wanted if he was ready to take on the responsibility of helping her grow up into being a wife, I did not want to go that process again.

 It was not her fault as she was an honest good gal just too immature for my needs, wants and desires so I told her with the help of the translator that I did not believe we were meant for each other.
 
 There were 5 other girls still to meet, 4 of which I was not interested in mostly because they were just not attractive enough or in one case the gal smoked which she had lied about in our correspondence and I have no tolerance for smokers. Then there was Julia, she was 5' 10" 120 lb 28 years old, a natural blonde with teal green eyes, extremely feminine, a well educated dentist who had been divorced several years earlier and did not have any children. I was quite attracted to her and she was to me, we hit it off well even though she did not speak a word of English, still with the help of the translator and my ever handy dictionary we were able to communicate with only a bit of difficulty. Over the course of the next few days we got along better and better so on my last day in St. Petersburg I invited her to spend 2 weeks with me in the Bahamas so we could really have the time and opportunity to see if we were right for each other, she accepted my offer on the spot. It took me a couple of months to put the trip together and we stayed in very close communication through letters and translator assisted telephone calls. We finally met in Nassau and for the next 2 weeks we had a great time. After I got home I was sure that Julia was the gal for me, she was a great gal, a lot of fun to be with and I was very sure she would have been happy with me so she and I began to talk about getting her a K1 fiancée visa. I even flew back over to St. Petersburg 2 months later for her birthday as a surprise and things seemed to be getting better and better but there was something wrong not with Julia but with me and I could not put my finger on it.
 
 After talking with a good friend who was also looking for a lady from Russia, he said something I really took to heart, that maybe I should stop and carefully examine what if anything was wrong and find out why I am having a problem with Julia. It took me some time but I finally realized that I was not in love with her, oh I could have been happy with her but that indescribable something was missing and that little voice in the back of my head was shouting at me. None of this was her fault and very reluctantly I told her that things were not going to work out between the two of us, it was very difficult for me to do but I am sure I was right. So it was back to the search and again I found many gals who were honest and would have made a great wife but none really hit me in their letters or in person until I found Victoria and the rest as they say is history.

 Kuna I keep saying there is no right or wrong way to go about seeking a lady from the FSU only what works for you and others, everyones experience will be different all we can do on this forum is offer our experiences.

TigerPaws

[Kuna]

In terms of your theory that hard work and research can make WOVO work...and remove most of the luck factor...come to my casino 

I believe preparation CAN make WOVO work...  I don't believe it WILL make it work...  I also believe that we should look for ways to reduce "surprises" and prep can help doing that...

Simoni...  Hmmmm... your casino... I'll only come if you have Texas Hold'em tables and not just all roulette wheels... I don't like luck! 

Kuna

[Kuna]

Kuna,

 Of all of the girls I met (32) only 1 concerned me as to her motivation, the rest were honest about their desire to fund someone they could love and share a life with. In my communication with far more ladies than you can begin to imagine I found that I could get a pretty good idea about the gal within 3 to 4 letters if is she was someone who I might like to get to know better and possibly meet. This process of meeting someone through correspondence is quite different for anything most men have ever experienced but it worked for me.
 
 To give you a good example I met 6 ladies while I was in St. Petersburg for 2 weeks on my one of my many trips over to the FSU, I had been in correspondence with them for about 7 months before I went to Russia. Now I pretty much knew (or at least thought I knew) which girl I was most interested in, her name was Marina 24 years old a very well educated doctor and from the photo's quite attractive, not beautiful but very nice. Her letters were everything you could every ask for and she was ready to settle down, have a family and share a life together with the right man (and she was pretty sure I was the right man). She met me at the airport along with the translator and driver I had prearranged to meet me when I arrived, Marina was a bit more attractive in person than her photo's so I was not disappointed with her appearance and she was genuinely happy to finally meet me in person. After spending some time with Marina I could begin to see things I did not like but first let me say that I was 43 when I sent out my first letter and 44 when I made my first trip to Russia, at that time I had a 13 year old son and a 9 year old daughter who lived with their mother. I was looking for a lady who was a bit more mature and my initial desire was for a lady who had been divorced but did not have a child, I was hoping that by finding a lady who had been married before hoping that she would at least have some idea what a relationship was all about and what it was like to live 24/7 with a man. I was not interested in raising my own wife having been there and done that I did not want to go through it again. Anyway back to Marina, it did not take me very long to figure out that she had no idea about what it was like to be in a relationship, she had spent all of her time in school and studying to be the best doctor possible which from what I was able to find out she was a very good physician. Marina would have been everything a man could have wanted if he was ready to take on the responsibility of helping her grow up into being a wife, I did not want to go that process again.

 It was not her fault as she was an honest good gal just too immature for my needs, wants and desires so I told her with the help of the translator that I did not believe we were meant for each other.
 
 There were 5 other girls still to meet, 4 of which I was not interested in mostly because they were just not attractive enough or in one case the gal smoked which she had lied about in our correspondence and I have no tolerance for smokers. Then there was Julia, she was 5' 10" 120 lb 28 years old, a natural blonde with teal green eyes, extremely feminine, a well educated dentist who had been divorced several years earlier and did not have any children. I was quite attracted to her and she was to me, we hit it off well even though she did not speak a word of English, still with the help of the translator and my ever handy dictionary we were able to communicate with only a bit of difficulty. Over the course of the next few days we got along better and better so on my last day in St. Petersburg I invited her to spend 2 weeks with me in the Bahamas so we could really have the time and opportunity to see if we were right for each other, she accepted my offer on the spot. It took me a couple of months to put the trip together and we stayed in very close communication through letters and translator assisted telephone calls. We finally met in Nassau and for the next 2 weeks we had a great time. After I got home I was sure that Julia was the gal for me, she was a great gal, a lot of fun to be with and I was very sure she would have been happy with me so she and I began to talk about getting her a K1 fiancée visa. I even flew back over to St. Petersburg 2 months later for her birthday as a surprise and things seemed to be getting better and better but there was something wrong not with Julia but with me and I could not put my finger on it.
 
 After talking with a good friend who was also looking for a lady from Russia, he said something I really took to heart, that maybe I should stop and carefully examine what if anything was wrong and find out why I am having a problem with Julia. It took me some time but I finally realized that I was not in love with her, oh I could have been happy with her but that indescribable something was missing and that little voice in the back of my head was shouting at me. None of this was her fault and very reluctantly I told her that things were not going to work out between the two of us, it was very difficult for me to do but I am sure I was right. So it was back to the search and again I found many gals who were honest and would have made a great wife but none really hit me in their letters or in person until I found Victoria and the rest as they say is history.

 Kuna I keep saying there is no right or wrong way to go about seeking a lady from the FSU only what works for you and others, everyones experience will be different all we can do on this forum is offer our experiences.

TigerPaws

TigerPaws,

Some nice reflections up there...

One comment though... at 43 yrs old do you now think pursuing a 24 yr old was high risk or low risk... of course many men want a wife that is much younger and 19 years certainly isn't DRAMATIC but at 24 are many girls "mature"... Yes, they are much more mature than a 20 year old but still MUCH less mature than a 30 year old...

In my preparation I read and thought LOTS about age... I'm 38 and I was only interested in girls between 28 and 32... My girl was 27 and I actually hesitated contacting her (because her age was lower than that I wrote down) but she was so damn cute in her photos I couldn't resist!   

[Kuna]

I sometimes thought I'd fallen victim to the "kid in a candy store" syndrome, and that I'd never be satisfied.

I think this could be a MAJOR factor for some guys... no matte which path they follow.  I talk abut about my WRITTEN list of "wants" and "don't wants" but on half a dozen occassins AT LEAST referring back to that written list was instrumental at keeping my head straight...

Kuna

[ecr844]

Another thing which I found to be of MAJOR importance was managing and maintaining realistic expectations during your trip, both yours and those whom you are meeting.

ECR844

[Kuna]

Another thing which I found to be of MAJOR importance was managing and maintaining realistic expectations during your trip, both yours and those whom you are meeting.

ECR844

Agreed... At times I've read abut some trips where a man is disappointed (pi$$ed off) that a girl doesn't take a lot of time off work while he's there...

Of course we WANT lots of time with the women while in FSU but we should remember they have their normal daily lives to content with as well.

If 200 girls had written to you...  2 bothered to travel to meet you... and the first was an absolute dud would you be prepare to lose your income for a week just because another man is turning up?

I feel fortunate that My girl took some time off work for our first meeting but I knew it was a big sacrifice for her...

Re: expectations...  It's such an important point...   I think some men on a WOVO trip have an expectation that they will meet... fall deeply in love and live happily ever after.  It would be more realistic on a WOVO trip to qualify the girls through correspondence prior to travelling and if you find just one you want to meet go ahead and meet her but don't EXPECT it to be happily ever after.  Meet the girl and have a back up plan in case it doesn't work out!  Here's a novel idea... plan your trip as a holiday and not a wife hunting expedition...  (I know some men really have little or no interest in FSU other than the babes")

Something that interests me about relationships is that often the defining factor for success is "What you're prepared to put up with"...  and at the end of the day it takes two people who are happy with each other.  What makes us happy is such an individual thing!

[TigerPaws]

TigerPaws,

Some nice reflections up there...

One comment though... at 43 yrs old do you now think pursuing a 24 yr old was high risk or low risk... of course many men want a wife that is much younger and 19 years certainly isn't DRAMATIC but at 24 are many girls "mature"... Yes, they are much more mature than a 20 year old but still MUCH less mature than a 30 year old...

In my preparation I read and thought LOTS about age... I'm 38 and I was only interested in girls between 28 and 32... My girl was 27 and I actually hesitated contacting her (because her age was lower than that I wrote down) but she was so damn cute in her photos I couldn't resist!   

Kuna,

 I was looking for a lady in her mid 20's, that was my goal and that is what I got.

TigerPaws

[catzenmouse]

An issue that has been talked about quite a bit is the Self Reflection (or whatever you want to call it). In order to be even close to ready for this type of pursuit the man has to, no, NEEDS to take a very long hard look inwards. Maybe many or most think they do this but I don't think they really look that deeply to truly see their issues realistically. They take a quick look and think they are fine and run off to "pick a puppy" thinking that "Hey, the letters were great, she must be the one!" But when reality hits them in the forehead they spend all their time and emotions blaming the girl or the country or the agency or ANYONE and EVERYONE except the real problem. THEMSELVES!

If a man is even close to having his $hit together it does not matter if it is a WOVO, WMVM, WMVF, etc. The thinking man will take this into account and either have a back up plan or have tourism as his back up plan. He will have no expectations beyond having a wonderful time in an extremely wonderful place!

Way too many men leave home without a single clue as to why they cannot connect "back home". This won't change anytime soon, if at all. The best we can do is to try to put that clue into those men who have the gumption to listen and do the dirty work up front in their own house before they try to make a geographical fix in their lives.

FWIW,
 Ken

[ecr844]

Well said "Kuna and Catz"!!!

[Vaughn]

Maybe many or most think they do this but I don't think they really look that deeply to truly see their issues realistically. They take a quick look and think they are fine and run off to "pick a puppy" thinking that "Hey, the letters were great, she must be the one!" But when reality hits them in the forehead they spend all their time and emotions blaming the girl or the country or the agency or ANYONE and EVERYONE except the real problem. THEMSELVES!

And they'll rationalize that, "Hey, she's from the FSU. Chances are - she'll be happy with
a guy like me....."

Ah, the thrill of the chase! The few that actually spring for a RT ticket will, for the most part,
enjoy themselves. About a year ago I think it was KenC who brought up the notion of
the "mystique": exotic slender women with attractive accents in a foreign land. Paradise.

Eventually, a guy who's convinced himself to commit will face the fact that the "game" is over.
She's passed the interview, received the visa, and is ready and waiting for Mr Former Keyboard Romeo to introduce her to the real world in which he lives, or simply exists.....  I believe THAT
part mortises perfectly with Ken Catzenmouse's assertion that a man would be well-advised to
take a personal inventory of his own preparedness....

Found this last night on a photo site, it screams THINK!! If it doesn't, or merely
elicits a wry smile, you might want to read and ask more questions of the OMB's hanging
around these parts.....




 

[catzenmouse]

Vaw-Gun!

 Hope all is well in NC! Big Hello to Elvira from us!

Ken

[Vaughn]

We think of you both often. Been an interesting summer here
with a surrogate daughter.

[Mir]

Kuna,

 I was looking for a lady in her mid 20's, that was my goal and that is what I got.

TigerPaws

Any reason you aimed for a girl who was so much younger then you?

[Simoni]

I didn't go stumbling into Kiev hoping that chemistry would materialise...I feel like I prepared and was rewarded for it...

Then we must have a different definition of chemistry.  Chemistry is NOT something that preparation can get you.  Rather, it's the physical attraction one has for you.  You can prepare to the nth degree, you can be compatible in all 15 points on your check list, but when you meet in real life you may not be attracted to one another at all.

What advice can we give to increase the chances of success for those that are most comfortable with WOVO?

I was most comfortable with WOVO.  It was my nature.  It was my personality.  I did not know about RWD and was totally on my own.  But instincts were good and I got to know the first girl I visited very very well before I saw her in person.  But after a short time I knew I did not want to MARRY her.   I had put in months of preparation for a single date.   But for those guys who feel most comfortable with WOVO, I would recommend they do what I did.  But beware that the person in reality may not be the person you have built through email and phone calls.

I was not "crushed" at all.  I went home and started the second detailed WOVO relationship.

I don't think many trips are a failure... but I doubt you goal would have been to take 6 trips to find your wife...  Your JOURNEY was successful but I wonder what you would have done differently on your WOVO trips to increase your chances of success.

Like TigerPaws, I was very particular in what kind of girl I was seeking.  For me, it was a lot-- personality, beauty, loyalty, intelligence, warmness, strong physical attraction both ways, youth so we could have a child together, age range 28-34, and no children of her own. Some of that list can be filtered in advance.  Others have to be felt in person.   I could have settled on many of the girls I met, especially on WMVM trips.  But I held out for my dream girl.  I viewed my trips as "dating" rather then going to look for a puppy to bring home.  And once I did have that combination, I met her on four more trips and dated her exclusivly for a year before bringing her home.

Your JOURNEY was successful but I wonder what you would have done differently on your WOVO trips to increase your chances of success.

If chemistry is such a random thing it might have been dumb luck it only took 6 trips... I'd like to think we can do things (and recommend to others that we would do things in future) that would improve the chances of success... otherwise it's just a numbers game... and that sounds pretty random???

Once again, you ask me to recommend?  But when I do you jump me and say I'm dictating?  Fell for that once....in the last post.  But I'll say again, what worked for you worked for you and you are a fan of your way.  I tried different ways and learned from my experiences and have recommended to friends how I think one can find the best girl in the easiest manner.  And it's not WOVO.  But the newbies here who want to try that are like I was once, so I say to them, go ahead.  But just have backup in place.  And yes, it is about numbers.   Luck comes into play if you win on your first number.  It happens.  But for most here, it took more than one meeting with one girl.

_________

I took the advice I'd read and wrote a letter that certainly got her attention.  that wasn't luck. 

You are misunderstanding me.  The luck part does not come in the letter you write her. That is talent on your part or skill or being able to connect with her through reacting to the letters she writes you.  The luck part comes AFTER the meeting.  You have read RWD.  You have read vets here, now married, who say they KNEW in 10 seconds after MEETING their wife that they had chemistry.  They had met others before where no such chemistry existed.  It's luck if you "hit" on your girl and she is the only girl you are visiting.  In real life, you do not marry every girl you date.  You keep dating until everything lines up.  Sure, it can happen in one date.  But it usually does not. And since the name of this thread is "distance," my answer is that it does not make sense to travel 6,000 miles and spend $4000 to put all your eggs in one basket.
____________________

Chemistry is DEFINITELY a factor but I've read TR's in here where men had a shaky start with a girl yet they felt there "could" be more if they persisted...  in one case they clicked (one assumes some would call that chemistry) but I wonder if it's a matter (for some) of CONFIRMING chemistry more than anything.

Sometimes a girl has been hurt in prior relationships and holds back.  Still, the man can feel the suppressed chemistry, and it is there.  They persist, and there is chemistry.  So no, I'm not saying the relationship starts with hot passion from hour one.  But I am saying that chemistry is there, and if it is not, then it's not the kind of marriage I want.

______________________

 

why do you think you went on 3 WOVO trips and then 3 WMVM trips before meeting someone that satisfied the standards you set?

Just bad luck? 

There is a difference between luck and "bad luck."  It's not bad luck when you meet a girl after writing her a half dozen letters, you have dinner with her, you like her ok, but you don't want to marry her.  That's not bad luck at all.  It's good.

From reading your TR Kuna, I think you were lucky to meet someone that is great for you, and on your first trip!  Lucky?  Yes. 

Let's talk about your trip.  Forgive me if I don't get names and details 100% correct; been a few months since I read it.

As I recall, you wanted in a primary sense to meet Ms. D, Ms. C, and a TV personality in Kiev.   Let's change the variables and say that Ms. D had cancelled meeting you for a family emergency, and when you offered to come help her, she declined.  Now you are down to Ms. C and Ms. TV.

You meet them both.  You like Ms. C.  Would you have married her?  I don't think so.  Thus, you would not have been a one trip wonder, whatever that means.  You would have had to make a second trip to meet Ms. D.   Therefore, I don't think we need to count trips and say someone is GOOD because they did it in one trip, or someone was lacking because it "took" them 6 or 10 trips.

And before you say my example is too fetched, it is not.  It happend to me on my third WOVO trip.  And I had no backup.  But by that time I had RWD, and someone here helped save my trip with a resource in Kiev.  The next month I came back to visit my WOVO girl, and had ZERO real life chemistry with her.  That's when I stopped looking for a quick fix and adopted the idea that I would date FSU women instead of trying to marry them.  Did so until all my list, plus intense chemistry, was fulfilled.

______________

You romanced the girl hard?  Why?  Did you feel you needed to? 

That was in the WOVO days.  And of course when one is in that mode they do the things to win the girl; after all, you are going to visit only her, and you expect things will work out between you--or you wouldn't visit just her.  You send flowers.  You call her to day goodnight. That is what I meant by "romance her."   And yes, she is fully qualified to meet the specs of you "list."  But I repeat, chemistry is a wildcard that can only be ascertained in person.

______

"Write 2 or 3 letters and go meet the girl.  And have backup.  In short, make FSU dating like dating at home.  Meet the girls, have fun with them.  In time, you may get lucky and find a great girl.  I did."

Dude... dictating what someone should do devalues your ability to give good advice.  I repeat... you CAN write letters for months... it worked for me.  There's other men here it worked for too but I still ponder what we could suggest to others who follow us and choose to do that to would improve their chances of success.

Harsh statement, and wrong. I have said repeatedly that there are many right ways to succeed.  My advice is my advice; based upon my very complete experience base.   And you have not been shy in giving advice, either. So drop the dictating lingo.

There are married guys on this site who met their wives in their very first visits to the FSU. They've stood the test of time. Certainly they had a lot going for themselves, but they were also extraordinarily lucky.

Currently, there seems to be a lot of guys in the visa process who met their wives on their first trip. They may consider their quest a "success" (and I hope this doesn't offend anyone) but I'm withholding judgment until she arrives in her new home and has spent some time there. I sincerely hope things work out, but in my checkered experiences with FSU women I have to reluctantly conclude that there may be surprises in store for some of you once she arrives...

Listen to Groove. He knows.  And he and I both know that newbies who are engaged and waiting on her visa are in the fun and easy part of the journey.  Just wait until she hits your shores and develops culture shock.  And is homesick.  That's when you better have chemistry, as well as character and common goals and morals.  That is why Groove and I made multiple trips.  We kept looking until we found exactly what we were looking for.  It seems like you found yours on the first trip...that did involve a degree of luck, no matter how "prepared" you might have been...

[Kuna]

Thanks Simoni...  I think there's a lot more middle ground in our last posts that will probably give some newbies a more balanced view on this topic...

Honestly... I don't need to be right about my approach... Frankly, I read advice in here when I was starting out that was pure BS... but I couldn't see it at the time.  In most cases I was lucky to follow a path that made up of ideas and advice from many different threads - and I think I increased my luck and avoided disappointment.

A couple of quick things that might explain some of my views:

Chemistry... I've sometimes described "chemistry" as "essence".  It can't really be defined and is even harder to describe.  It's not physical (how many hotties have you dated at home that were repulsive after the first week???) and it's not even character, etc on it's own.  In fact I think chemistry also has a lot to do with timing.  I divorced 11 years ago and for the first 7 years you couldn't have got me near the alter again...  In the middle of the 4 year relationship I was in at the time I was starting to feel like I wanted to settle down again but I knew the girl I was with wasn't the one...  When the time was right for me I was comfortable with commitment...  up until then it wouldn't have mattered who I was with - I wouldn't have gotten married.

Key Selection Criteria... I hope we're all particular about who we marry and I hope we all have some sort of list we want to find in a girl.  I reckon a lot of guys go to FSU for the first time without much of a list... Maybe they haven't been successful at home?  Maybe they are rebounding after a breakup?  There's lots of reasons. 

I'm happy you found your perfect mate because I think some men who are less serious give up earlier... maybe that's a good thing... I dunno??? 

Your criteria and TigerPaws seems quite different (although I don't know your age) because his pre-chosen wide age range obviously makes it more difficult.  A girl at 24 is very different than a girl at 34 too, in terms of maturity (life experience that is), goals and values.  Another member here has spent 10 years "dating"... or looking for a "puppy" (Whatever you'd like to call it.)  His eventual 40 year age gap probably had something to do with his "luck".

I guess what I'm getting at is that if someone is going to go to FSU on any plan they'd better make sure they have a well thought out list they are looking for in a girl or they might spend a long time "shopping for that puppy" or not being lucky...

More than one meeting to find a girl...  Yeah, sorry...  I acknowledge everything else you say in your post but I guess what I'm exploring is "What advice we can give men to help them find their partner more quickly than 4 years, 7 years or 10 years.  I think Catzenmouse touched on it earlier (or maybe in another thread)... Maybe success has more to do with understanding one's self rather than anything else... (Ken, sorry for paraphrasing).

Luck?... I don't think chemistry = luck.  Maybe CHEMISTRY = {LUCK + SELF AWARENESS} x SOUND ADVICE VIA RWD + PREVIOUS DATING SUCCESS AT HOME

Dunno...  I wouldn't suggest people rely on luck though...


You ask a question about my decisions if it hadn't clicked with Ms D...  If Ms D had cancelled and I was left with Ms C and TV Chick and I hadn't married either of them I wouldn't have travelled back to see Ms D.  Why?  It's not because I wouldn't have wanted to but rather I wouldn't have let myself waste time after a cancellation like that.  To be honest if things hadn't gone so well I might now be marrying the girl I met on New Years Eve because that was always in the back of my mind too.

Again I think we make our own luck to an extent...

Oh... I AM a One Trip Wonder and laughing all the way to the alter about it!!!  I wish everyone else the same "luck" I had...   

On side point I know a guy going to FSU on a first trip soon and I don't think he will have "luck"...  not because of any other reason except I don't believe he is ready for a relationship.  He's young, successful, attractive to women (I guess) and well researched but timing might be the killer for him...  I still wish him luck though...

I'll quote you directly on your next point:

Listen to Groove. He knows.  And he and I both know that newbies who are engaged and waiting on her visa are in the fun and easy part of the journey.  Just wait until she hits your shores and develops culture shock.  And is homesick.  That's when you better have chemistry, as well as character and common goals and morals.  That is why Groove and I made multiple trips.  We kept looking until we found exactly what we were looking for.  It seems like you found yours on the first trip...that did involve a degree of luck, no matter how "prepared" you might have been...

It's laughable that you would assume it's been all "beer and skittles" up to now.  I know you're not aware of everything but I can assure you it hasn't been "cool fun"... ESPECIALLY FOR HER!

I'm aware of the life changes I'll make once she arrives but I'm not expecting any dramatic surprises.  I won't experience a culture shock like many MEN do because I grew up in a very Euro/Eastern Euro household.  The attitudes, opinions, reactions, food, etc are all pretty familiar to me - in fact in some ways the matriarchs in my life are more Eastern Euro than her in many ways...

None of the women I met seemed like aliens to me....

As for her having culture shock and homesickness... She's lived away from her family for 2 years and for the first year barely spoke the language of the country she was in... We've talked in detail about those experiences and her arrival and adjustment here.

My situation might also be a bit different to others because she is coming from a city of similar size and she will have vast opportunity to explore my city and develop her own references once here.  Her English is near perfect and we will live 300 metres from a ferry terminal that crosses the river every 10 minutes.  As she alights she has literally everything she needs including a job in a similar company to where she works now (if she wants)... - it's a friend and he is more than welcoming to the idea.  She wants to study a little and ready herself for the future though she asserts that she will be busy and mentally productive soon after arriving "because she will make it for our family".  (Is she an optimist... perhaps but we've spoken about some things and she's adjusted her thinking on a few of those issues.)

I DO think I am lucky that she is the person she is... but luck wasn't the defining factor in finding her.

As I said earlier... I hope others can be as "lucky".

Kuna

[TigerPaws]

Any reason you aimed for a girl who was so much younger then you?

Mir,

Short list of reasons, Prettier, less baggage, hot body, no children yet (hopefully) because I could, why not, older is not necessarily better. Hum.... Those are the politically correct reasons.

TigerPaws

[Mir]

Hmm


So I presume that you feel a hot body is preferable to the maturity that comes with experience ?

[TigerPaws]

Hmm


So I presume that you feel a hot body is preferable to the maturity that comes with experience ?

In one word YES!

TigerPaws

[MaxxumUSA]

Thanks Simoni...  I think there's a lot more middle ground in our last posts that will probably give some newbies a more balanced view on this topic...

Honestly... I don't need to be right about my approach... Frankly, I read advice in here when I was starting out that was pure BS... but I couldn't see it at the time.  In most cases I was lucky to follow a path that made up of ideas and advice from many different threads - and I think I increased my luck and avoided disappointment.

A couple of quick things that might explain some of my views:

Chemistry... I've sometimes described "chemistry" as "essence".  It can't really be defined and is even harder to describe.  It's not physical (how many hotties have you dated at home that were repulsive after the first week???) and it's not even character, etc on it's own.  In fact I think chemistry also has a lot to do with timing.  I divorced 11 years ago and for the first 7 years you couldn't have got me near the alter again...  In the middle of the 4 year relationship I was in at the time I was starting to feel like I wanted to settle down again but I knew the girl I was with wasn't the one...  When the time was right for me I was comfortable with commitment...  up until then it wouldn't have mattered who I was with - I wouldn't have gotten married.

Key Selection Criteria... I hope we're all particular about who we marry and I hope we all have some sort of list we want to find in a girl.  I reckon a lot of guys go to FSU for the first time without much of a list... Maybe they haven't been successful at home?  Maybe they are rebounding after a breakup?  There's lots of reasons. 

I'm happy you found your perfect mate because I think some men who are less serious give up earlier... maybe that's a good thing... I dunno??? 

Your criteria and TigerPaws seems quite different (although I don't know your age) because his pre-chosen wide age range obviously makes it more difficult.  A girl at 24 is very different than a girl at 34 too, in terms of maturity (life experience that is), goals and values.  Another member here has spent 10 years "dating"... or looking for a "puppy" (Whatever you'd like to call it.)  His eventual 40 year age gap probably had something to do with his "luck".

I guess what I'm getting at is that if someone is going to go to FSU on any plan they'd better make sure they have a well thought out list they are looking for in a girl or they might spend a long time "shopping for that puppy" or not being lucky...

More than one meeting to find a girl...  Yeah, sorry...  I acknowledge everything else you say in your post but I guess what I'm exploring is "What advice we can give men to help them find their partner more quickly than 4 years, 7 years or 10 years.  I think Catzenmouse touched on it earlier (or maybe in another thread)... Maybe success has more to do with understanding one's self rather than anything else... (Ken, sorry for paraphrasing).

Luck?... I don't think chemistry = luck.  Maybe CHEMISTRY = {LUCK + SELF AWARENESS} x SOUND ADVICE VIA RWD + PREVIOUS DATING SUCCESS AT HOME

Dunno...  I wouldn't suggest people rely on luck though...


You ask a question about my decisions if it hadn't clicked with Ms D...  If Ms D had cancelled and I was left with Ms C and TV Chick and I hadn't married either of them I wouldn't have travelled back to see Ms D.  Why?  It's not because I wouldn't have wanted to but rather I wouldn't have let myself waste time after a cancellation like that.  To be honest if things hadn't gone so well I might now be marrying the girl I met on New Years Eve because that was always in the back of my mind too.

Again I think we make our own luck to an extent...

Oh... I AM a One Trip Wonder and laughing all the way to the alter about it!!!  I wish everyone else the same "luck" I had...   

On side point I know a guy going to FSU on a first trip soon and I don't think he will have "luck"...  not because of any other reason except I don't believe he is ready for a relationship.  He's young, successful, attractive to women (I guess) and well researched but timing might be the killer for him...  I still wish him luck though...

I'll quote you directly on your next point:
It's laughable that you would assume it's been all "beer and skittles" up to now.  I know you're not aware of everything but I can assure you it hasn't been "cool fun"... ESPECIALLY FOR HER!

I'm aware of the life changes I'll make once she arrives but I'm not expecting any dramatic surprises.  I won't experience a culture shock like many MEN do because I grew up in a very Euro/Eastern Euro household.  The attitudes, opinions, reactions, food, etc are all pretty familiar to me - in fact in some ways the matriarchs in my life are more Eastern Euro than her in many ways...

None of the women I met seemed like aliens to me....

As for her having culture shock and homesickness... She's lived away from her family for 2 years and for the first year barely spoke the language of the country she was in... We've talked in detail about those experiences and her arrival and adjustment here.

My situation might also be a bit different to others because she is coming from a city of similar size and she will have vast opportunity to explore my city and develop her own references once here.  Her English is near perfect and we will live 300 metres from a ferry terminal that crosses the river every 10 minutes.  As she alights she has literally everything she needs including a job in a similar company to where she works now (if she wants)... - it's a friend and he is more than welcoming to the idea.  She wants to study a little and ready herself for the future though she asserts that she will be busy and mentally productive soon after arriving "because she will make it for our family".  (Is she an optimist... perhaps but we've spoken about some things and she's adjusted her thinking on a few of those issues.)

I DO think I am lucky that she is the person she is... but luck wasn't the defining factor in finding her.

As I said earlier... I hope others can be as "lucky".

Kuna

You know...  Kuna and Simoni...  You are both right.

I learned a lot since coming to the forums.

Check this out:  I first found forums AFTER my first visit to see Elena.  After we decided we wanted to pursue marriage.  Elena was my first visit, and I did WOVO deep into russia without a backup plan.

I post because I was SO naive.  I looked at the forums thinking:  WTF are these people talking about?  This is SO easy.  Just get on a plane, meet your woman, sweep her off her feet, then start the process of bringing her home with you.  That simple!

Well...  Now that I have been around the forums for a while - I know how DAMN LUCKY I am!  Wow...  Truly blessed.