Yet another age difference thread

[KenC]

.

I'll never understand why so many are focused on TG and VWRW and why so many topics end up focused on their relationship. 

wxman,
It is because Turbo injects himself into every age related thread, just as he has here.  I am happy to see some new posters in this thread before Turbo turned into a "Turbo" thread yet again!   For guy so confident in what he is doing, he sure hears waaaay too many little voices and feels compelled to defend himself even when he is not the subject.
KenC

[KenC]

Cant see very many left with an over 25 year difference, even 20 is stretching it. In fact, I dont see any left at all. Train wrecks and the like. The green card was the usual bright line test, a few of the men died of natural causes, and then there were none left at all in that age division.

However, I do not think the March/November "matches" skew the overall stats all that much-the failure rates are depressingly high as it is.

William,
You seriously do not know of any 20-25 year difference marriages that lasted long term?  Have you witnessed any AM/RW marriages with an age gap of 37 years?  If so, how long did it last?
KenC

[BillyB]

everyone said I did a right thing...

Why? I agree with Jet that some people don't truly understand the "worse" part when saying "For better or worse" but there is no mistaking the "Till death do us part" when saying your wedding vows. There are three things I consider valid reasons for divorce, serious mental or physical abuse, adultry, or abandonment.

I don't want a woman to leave me if my country calls me to war and I we are separated for a few years. I don't want her to leave me if I became crippled and needed my diapers changed. I wouldn't leave her if that happened by chance.

Most mothers wouldn't abandon their child who may be crippled early in life or as an adult. Hopefully some of your marriages out there are strong enough to weather the storms that may come.

KenC, I commend you for warning others who may be in or searching for a relationship with a large age gap but it stumps me why you're so hard on TG again and again. Many times on other forums you have taken a beating from others ridiculing your relationship and they predicting things will fail. Some still take cheap shots and criticise you and your relationship although you're not there to defend yourself. There were times I even defended you.

The reason I don't try to educate you, TG, or VWRW is because you both heard all the warnings when it comes to large age gaps. You both know that younger women may have insincere intentions if they are willing to commit to a man much her senior. VWRW has heard the warnings that a younger woman may have to change the diapers of her man if she marries a man much her senior. You all have heard those warnings and everything in between yet you, TG, and VWRW do not run away from the forum and know the consequences of your actions. If anything TG and VWRW is armed with all the cons of being in a relationship with a large age difference than anybody else so hopefully outside the forum they have discussed the "what if's?" and if their relationship will survive during rough waters.

Regardless of which message board it is, I usually just hate it when somebody pipes up and accuses a newcomer with an elaborate story as being a troll.

Renetka, don't feel bad. Lily got a much tougher beating when she arrived and she didn't have such an elaborate story.

Hub, I can't help but notice your writing style and mentality reminds me of another poster. Are you Pike?

[Gator]

Tarvels kept away for a few days so I missed this remarkable thread as it unfolded.

The RW posters have added so much substance to this discussion.  I think much can be learned about the RW spirit from just reading the RW posts and ignoring what the men had to say.   In fact, I ma very impressed by their comments.

Regarding Renatka, I believe 95% of her story.  She changed.  There is nothing new about a woman changing, especially a young woman. 

She wanted a baby, and a man can not comprehend this biological and psychological compulsion.  She had become financially independent, something not easily done coming to a new country.  Her husband became ill, and we do not know the details of the illness or how long before he recovered or died; nevertheless, attending to him would have taken more of her time while her biological clock went “tick, tick, tick.”  She needed to find another man, and because he will be the father of her child, she must take her time and be certain about him. 

Each of these is a strong factor.  The three together are very compelling. 

Where I disagree with her is that while she says she loved her husband, I do not believe she loved him passionately.  Otherwise, she would have stayed.  Why did she not love him passionately?  Probably the age difference.

[Turboguy]

Billy,

Unfortunately it is becoming more and more of a throw away world.   No one fixes much of anything any more.   That applies to printers, watches and unfortunately marriages.   It may not be too sad about the printer but it sure is about marriages.   50 years ago if someone had to spend decades changing diapers on their spouse and pushing them around in a wheelchair it was sort of expected.   Now if you have a wife or husband that will do it you are lucky.  

I do appreciate your support.  Thanks.   The cold hard reality is that we have had long talks about the real issues we face and we know we have more compatability than most here believe.   We are going into it with our eyes open and with a more level head than the others think.   We will be fine and if we are not it won't be for lack of trying.  No one has the perfect crystal ball that will fortell the future but I have full confidence that VWRW has the right motives.   I know we have a very strong and healthy relationship and are far more similar and compatable than I would ever have expected to find between any two people.   The issues that others talk about is not something we are unaware of.   Sure there are risks but without risks you can never have a reward.   Any marriage has it's risks and personally I think some of the strengths help balance off some of the higher risks that would normally be present in an age gap marriage.  

Gator, that was a good analsis.   I have to agree totally.  I don't doubt that she thought she loved him but I don't think it was the kind of passionate love that would have survived the problems.   I think too her whole life was not one to love. 

[William3rd]

Greatest K age difference I witnessed was 80 and 33. He kicked her out and didnt marry her when he checked his computer spy and found out that she was in contact with several other men on line. I guess you CAN teach old dogs new tricks. Says something about the girl though. Had a few big age gaps but the majority actually died within a few years. Just had a 360 widow case with an 83/38.

In the late 90s, higher age differences were more common. Keep in mind that I did alot of tour agency cases. Major statement of failures of the system. I am aware of perhaps a handful of 20 year differences that are still married. All the rest- gone, gone gone. And so are most of the 10 year differences as well.

[Turboguy]

Sounds like virtually everyone here can expect to be divorced soon.

[KenC]

KenC, I commend you for warning others who may be in or searching for a relationship with a large age gap but it stumps me why you're so hard on TG again and again.

Billy,
Because Turbo hijacks EVERY age oriented thread with his defensive and illogical posts. He makes EVERY age related post about him & VWRW.  I could care less about his reasoning (?) any more and I have long forgotten the idea of talking any sense into him, but when he continually posts nonsense. I feel as though I have to respond and point it out as nonsense.  He defends himself when he is not the subject of the conversation.

I was hoping for a logical and reasonable thread here with an adult discussion regarding the pitfalls of an age gap marriage.  We all learned more in Renatka's first post than all the thousands of Turbo posts.  This thread wasn't about Turbo, but now it is, AGAIN.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Come on. Why would she did it then? She was 31yo. Why not to wait more and choose someone younger if thats such a problem? I wont eat that she didnt realize anything and very loved her future husband. I simply dont believe that. Once she got her passport,she found that impossible to bear and decided that she deserves something better. Now tell me,why she didnt think that while lived in FSU?

I agree, that is exactly how I think about this situation

[I/O]

Had this thread stopped at about the end of page two, it would have been one of the greats. Alas it did not.

I/O

[Blues Fairy]

50 years ago if someone had to spend decades changing diapers on their spouse and pushing them around in a wheelchair it was sort of expected.   Now if you have a wife or husband that will do it you are lucky.

In Russia, such care is usually expected from grown children/grandchildren who live with or near their parents/grandparents, change their diapers and then inherit their apartments.  American kids are expected to make their own fortune and therefore kicked out of their folks' home at an early age.  At the same time, elderly folks take care of their own retirement and rarely have the advantage of having the younger generation nurse them.  A young FSU wife must be a perfect substitute for this missing convenience. :-)       

[Turboguy]

Had this thread stopped at about the end of page two, it would have been one of the greats. Alas it did not.

I/O

I believe the same could be said about many relationships.

[BC]

I believe the same could be said about many relationships.

Care to clarify?.. that one just zinged over my head..
-or was it another joke and I should be laughing?
 

[Gator]

Blues fairy wrote,

Quote from: Turboguy on Yesterday at 11:14:09 PM
50 years ago if someone had to spend decades changing diapers on their spouse and pushing them around in a wheelchair it was sort of expected.   Now if you have a wife or husband that will do it you are lucky.

In Russia, such care is usually expected from grown children/grandchildren who live with or near their parents/grandparents, change their diapers and then inherit their apartments.  American kids are expected to make their own fortune and therefore kicked out of their folks' home at an early age.  At the same time, elderly folks take care of their own retirement and rarely have the advantage of having the younger generation nurse them.  A young FSU wife must be a perfect substitute for this missing convenience. :-)

A few observations on long term care:

1.  My Moscow woman took care of her ailing grandmother (diapers, baths, etc.) and never complained.  She did complain that her mother (the grandmother's daughter) did nothing (and I mean "nothing").  But the "mother" is another story.
2.  So the Russian wife takes care of the older husband.  Who takes care of her when she needs it - her younger new husband from Haiti?  Long term care is expensive as facilities can charge around $10,000 per month or more for this service. 
3.  My long term care solution is simple.  When it becomes apparent that I am in “the beginning of the end” and still ambulatory, I will take my first skydiving lesson and forget to pull the rip cord.   A more masculine form of Thelma and Louise’s solution. And this is not a joke - I am serious.  I have had a fantastic life, experienced so much, and been blessed in numerous ways.  Quality of life is an issue with me.

[Turboguy]

Yes BC it was a joke and it was probably the type that may have not been as understandable as I thought.  My apologies,  I also think BluesFairy posted while I was writing that and it may have made more sense directly after I/O's post.

Had this thread stopped at about the end of page two, it would have been one of the greats. Alas it did not.
I/O

I believe the same could be said about many relationships.

What I was joking about is that many relationships would be ones we would look back on as being one of the great ones if they stopped at the end of "page two" (translate to: during the early phase of a relationship before some of the difficulties arise)   

Hopefully it makes more sense now but it was not anything of importance anyway.

[Gator]

What I was joking about is that many relationships would be ones we would look back on as being one of the great ones if they stopped at the end of "page two" (translate to: during the early phase of a relationship before some of the difficulties arise)

Yeah, I have had many "great weekends".  Somehow things are never as good afterwards.  [There is a hidden message here.]

[Turboguy]

I have often had the same thought on Sky Diving Gator.  My mother who is 94 did pretty well until a year ago.  Now she is in Assisted Living.   Although she had a nice private room in a beautiful facility looking around at the quality of life they have does let me feel the same as you do on the subject.   

[KenC]

Greatest K age difference I witnessed was 80 and 33. He kicked her out and didnt marry her when he checked his computer spy and found out that she was in contact with several other men on line. I guess you CAN teach old dogs new tricks. Says something about the girl though. Had a few big age gaps but the majority actually died within a few years. Just had a 360 widow case with an 83/38.

In the late 90s, higher age differences were more common. Keep in mind that I did alot of tour agency cases. Major statement of failures of the system. I am aware of perhaps a handful of 20 year differences that are still married. All the rest- gone, gone gone. And so are most of the 10 year differences as well.

William,
Thank you for sharing your valuable experience in this area.  Not trying to put you on the spot, but could you guess the percentages?  A "handful" still married and "the rest" divorced is still a little too abstract.  Just trying to get a feel for the numbers.  Your best guess would be fine here.

I also think your comment about age gaps being greater in the late 90's is revealing.  Do you think that the age gaps have decreased now because "tours" have become less popular?  Or is it because the fsu has more Internet availability (there by opening up this process to a greater number of ladies)?  I see the ages of the women listed now on the Net and there seems to be a much greater number of women in their 30's listed and even some in their 40's and 50's.  When I first went to Tver in 98 LTP ( a rather large agency at the time) literally had only 3 or 4 women listed in their 30's and none older.  Is this avenue just more accepted in the fsu now?

I welcome and encourage the ladies to give an opinion on this too.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Having been at this for a while I have to agree with Ken's post.  Things are a changin.

If you do get around to statistics one more that might be interesting William is the percentage of couples you worked with that met through a tour.   It could be interesting sometime to have those numbers and one from an attorney who did not work with a tour agency and to compare.   My gut feelings are the differences would be more than those comparing a 5 year gap with a 20 year gap.

[Mir]

When it becomes apparent that I am in “the beginning of the end” and still ambulatory, I will take my first skydiving lesson and forget to pull the rip cord

The problem is to decide when it is the beginning of the end? The first signs of trouble are often ignored or considered to be just temporary, then we find that we are no longer in a position to go skydiving or even to pull anything.

Yeah, I have had many "great weekends".  Somehow things are never as good afterwards.  [There is a hidden message here.]

I guess that message is what Oscar Wilde is trying to tell us:

A man can be happy with any woman, as long as he does not love her.

[William3rd]

John Roth and I compared notes a couple of years ago. He had mostly non-tour and I had mostly tour. So that is over 7000 cases. Most of the clients were divorced. The "success" rate that the tour operator touted was the engagement-and we had some tours with 90%. Recently, their numbers were at perhaps 30% at best based on total number of participants.

The actual success rate-married for 5 years- may be as low as 10% for the tour clients. Roth thought that his numbers were a little better since many of his clients were in more traditional longer term relationships but, overall, the failure rates were very high.

The high engagement rate and high age difference in the 90 s were in my opinion due more to desperation and hopes for a better economic future. I remember in 2000 one Russian skank over here saying- the first marriage is to get here, then you can go look for love. The improved economy and brighter future I believe is the major reason that the numbers are closer now. Girls can take their time and look at the WM as just another alternative available to them.

As far as filtering out the 20 plus age differences, I am trying to think of any that I know. There were a few deaths that would have been successful. My own failed spectacularly in 2005. If I count the deaths, the sucess rate is still less than ten percent. This is not science or statistics. There are three that I know that are still going. The men are extremely wealthy so many of the problems that afflict us lesser mortals are not applicable to them.

Hope this helps some.

[Gator]

William3rd,

Did you notice any difference when she had a child from her first marriage?  With and without considerion of age disparity.

[KenC]

John Roth and I compared notes a couple of years ago. He had mostly non-tour and I had mostly tour. So that is over 7000 cases. Most of the clients were divorced. The "success" rate that the tour operator touted was the engagement-and we had some tours with 90%. Recently, their numbers were at perhaps 30% at best based on total number of participants.

The actual success rate-married for 5 years- may be as low as 10% for the tour clients. Roth thought that his numbers were a little better since many of his clients were in more traditional longer term relationships but, overall, the failure rates were very high.

The high engagement rate and high age difference in the 90 s were in my opinion due more to desperation and hopes for a better economic future. I remember in 2000 one Russian skank over here saying- the first marriage is to get here, then you can go look for love. The improved economy and brighter future I believe is the major reason that the numbers are closer now. Girls can take their time and look at the WM as just another alternative available to them.

As far as filtering out the 20 plus age differences, I am trying to think of any that I know. There were a few deaths that would have been successful. My own failed spectacularly in 2005. If I count the deaths, the sucess rate is still less than ten percent. This is not science or statistics. There are three that I know that are still going. The men are extremely wealthy so many of the problems that afflict us lesser mortals are not applicable to them.

Hope this helps some.

Thank you William,
A very enlightening post to say the least.  With a sample of 7,000, there certainly some validity to your guesstimate.  I would have guessed a little higher for the overall number of "successes" at around 25% tops with age gaps coming in at something like 5%.  It is surprising to me that the overall success rate for tours is only 10%.  I guess that even I am more optimistic than reality proves.
KenC

[William3rd]

I am not referring to tours overall. Just the specific agency system I was working in.
That is the cocktail party/disco/Russian women love old or black guys environment
Smaller groups like Jack's take more time with their clients and really mentor the men into more rational decision making.

Where do we start the count at? tour participation, engagement, marriage, 5 years later?

EC-the only credible one of the big tour agencies used to state-each fiancee that arrives here is the product of two engagements.

On any given fiancee visa- I used to see 10% of the total "die on the vine." S0- 90% get here. Of that, probably 20% or so didn't marry, so now we are at 70% married. IN the next year or so, about ten percent bail out so we reach 60%. After the green card, there is a huge rush for the doors but that number pales to the bunch that bails out after the 751.

I believe women with children are more stable and women that have children with their new spouses are the most stable.

I also believe that any March/November relationship with a childless woman who is not planning on having children with her new "daddy" has a success rate that is not measurable under current scientific methods.

As I say that, I am aware of one 55/22 still going (they are not 55/22 anymore) after 8 years with no children but the woman cant have any. . . . 

[neo]

I thought it quite relevent to post this article from some years ago that was published in the Kyiv Post. It should proably be better posted in a new thread dedicated to such bites of reality entitled "wake up and smell the coffee"


Welcome to the marriage agency
Mar 25, 2004 01:18


I don’t know how it is possible for people to take international marriage agencies seriously, to treat them as places where God and fate bring hearts together. I see an international marriage agency as a mirror that reflects the world order, in which there are “first world” countries and “third world” ones. International marriage agencies also exploit gender inequality. You can hardly find a better place to understand the connection between gender and economy, and the myths that surround them.

It is well known that the demand to go abroad is quite high in Ukraine, and that there are businesses which take advantage of this demand. However, international marriage agencies are probably the most morally dubious of these businesses, as they are based not only on a widespread desire to emigrate, prompted by Ukrainian poverty, but also on old gender stereotypes and on a view of women as economic objects.

This is apparent from the fact that the agency only makes a profit from its male, foreign clients, while Ukrainian women, who do not pay for the service, are in effect a commodity, to be sold at a profit.

It’s also apparent from the organization of the so-called “socials” at which foreign clients and women meet. In the center of the hall there are several dozen tables occupied by the clients (often gray-haired gentlemen well advanced in years) and interpreters. Some two or three hundred women prop up the walls; from time to time the bravest ones walk around, trying to attract attention. If a client is interested in a particular woman, his interpreter invites her to their table and they get acquainted in a 15-minute conversation. And again and again. In the evening, each man invites a woman to a restaurant, and after that... God knows what they’re doing afterwards, but it seems everyone is satisfied.

If a client is looking for a woman to spend the night with, he will easily find one in a marriage agency. But the number of marriages resulting from meetings at the socials is really quite low.

However, those few success stories inspire future participants.

The marriage agencies also owe their popularity to a number of myths, myths based on hazy notions like the Slavic soul, fate, love at first sight, and ideals of womanhood. It’s worth examining these in order.



Myths for the clients

1) The Slavic woman

She is: a mysterious soul, an ideal mixture of childish innocence and mature pragmatism. She is very beautiful and traditionally-bred. She aspires to a housewife-like quiet life and knows how to make her husband happy. She likes cooking and believes that a woman’s primary role is doing chores and caring for children. Unlike western feminists, she does not undermine men’s traditional roles. She does not expect her husband to achieve great success and earn a lot of money, but accepts him the way he is. She will adore life in a small house somewhere in the sticks in America. She is poor and unprotected and is waiting for you, waiting for safe and true love.

It should be admitted that these images are partially based on reality. It’s true that people are poor here, and there are a lot of cultural differences.

However, these are not reflections of innate differences of soul or character. Most of the girls at socials dream of going abroad. To achieve this, they will behave and present themselves in the way that is expected of them.

Even if marriage isn’t on the cards, many women enjoy eating at expensive restaurants at a foreigner’s expense, and getting expensive gifts.

There are a lot of stories about adventuresses who make their living at marriage agency socials. I wouldn’t blame them. They are striving for a nice life and use everything they can to get it – their femininity and the fantasies of western men.



2) There are no men in ‘Russia.’

According to this myth, every foreigner in “Russia” (foreign fiances coming to Ukraine usually do not bother to differentiate between the two countries) is passionately desired by the local women, as there are no decent men around. They are all either in prison, or alcoholics, or drug addicts, or they have gone abroad looking for better jobs. Even if there are enough of them, they are uncouth dorks, incapable of behaving like gentlemen and bad in bed. They are moronic, wild, uncivilized animals, a rare species to be registered in the Red Book. And above all, they are poor.

In short, the gender and economic situation in Ukraine is such that a 50-year-old, plump American dwarf living, without very much money, on a farm in Ohio can easily marry here a slim, tall and beautiful young model. If you’re a foreigner, you can easily approach any woman on the street and immediately start a love affair, full of joy and romance.

Again, there is some truth in this. Ukrainian men die earlier than women for a number of reasons, and it’s true (as it’s probably true in any other country) that the percentage of law-breakers and drug addicts is higher among men. It is true that a foreigner here can approach any woman and she will talk to him without fear.

Nevertheless, it’s certainly not true that Ukrainian women do not like flirting with Ukrainian men. They certainly do. They certainly don’t like Western stinginess, individualism and a rational attitude towards money. However, they would not refuse to take advantage of those qualities when they can.

Think about the fact that these perfect Ukrainian women have grown up in the same families as those awful Ukrainian men. Is there any contradiction?



Myths for female ‘Russians’

The American dream

A significant factor in Ukrainian women’s desire to go abroad is what they have heard about the American dream. Women expect to become wealthy, to live in their own houses with swimming pools, to have cars and to relax at expensive health resorts. Some also dream about getting Western educations, starting their own businesses and having careers. In every case, they dream about opportunities. The marriage itself is not the end, but a way to emigrate to a wealthy country where people are seen to be the masters of life.

Marriage is a tool, so it’s no wonder that some foreign men (those more sensitive by nature) feel as if they are goods on the market. And that’s fair. Because Ukrainian women (most of whom are very sensitive by nature) have the same feeling.

It seems that most Ukrainians want to leave the country. Managing to emigrate is considered a real success. Young women are encouraged to marry foreigners, in order to get foreign citizenship and opportunities in other countries. Stories circulate about girls who have married elderly Americans, left them, successfully integrated into American society, brought all their relatives to America, and finally married young American guys with whom they are unbelievably happy.

The failure stories are not told, as people hardly believe them. Even going abroad is considered an unambiguous success. So women who are unhappy to be dependent on strangers in a strange country should keep silent.

“After all, it was your free choice. Don’t you see what is going on here! Do you want to return? Well, you’re a fool.”

Indeed, people who do come back stay here for a month and find that they suddenly don’t want to stay any longer.



Myths for everyone

Unisex myths about love at first sight and fate say that it is possible to find love in any situation, even during three-day socials where the atmosphere and language barrier (to be crossed with the help of an interpreter who often seems to be just another barrier) do not assist deep spiritual contact.

These are the main myths which function at the marriage agencies and socials. They adorn unpleasant realities of economic and gender disparity. With all my heart, I wish such institutions disappeared from the face of the earth. The fact that they exist offends my human dignity.

But they will probably not vanish as long as the “first world” and the “third world” exist. And maybe their existence is a lesser evil now, an opportunity for our people to make their dreams come true. However, these humanistic considerations cannot disguise the fact that it is close to the sex tourism so keenly described by Michel Houellebecq in Platform.

The sad reality is hidden under a number of romantic and not very romantic myths, promoted and held onto by “Russian” fiancees, aging foreign men, and the staffs of marriage agencies. Although the phenomenon itself will hardly disappear in our divided world, we can at least discuss the myths and stereotypes which surround it, so that people on both sides of the counter know what to expect.



Kateryna Maksymenko, a journalist in Kyiv, has a degree in cultural and gender studies.