Russian lessons

[SANDRO43]

Russian is very phonic (why isn't phonic, spelled fonic?)

Probably because:
- the Romans often translitered the Greek φ as ph
- Latin was the international language of science well into the XVIIth century (e.g. Newton's Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, published in 1687)

Hence the Greek word φωνή (sound) is 'phone' in French and English. Téléfon would have been equally well-pronounceable, and is written like that in most other languages.

BTW, "phonic" is not the right term to describe what you are alluding to. I have been fruitlessly searching for it for a long time, alas, and would have guessed on something like "orthophonographic" ('accurate rendering of sounds in writing', with no less than 3 phs in it ), were it not for the fact that it reminds too much of the description of a good stereo system .

[chivo]

Could we agree that it would be nice though not essential to have some fluency in Russian ?

Hopefully. The last thing we need is another version of "As the World Turns", especially about language. But this is the bottom line.

When I am in an English-, French- or Spanish-speaking country:
- I can understand more about places, situations and people.
- Local people appreciate my communicating with them in their native language, and this opens doors that otherwise would be shut, or barely ajar if I didn't.

If you can't see the value in this then there's no hope for you.

Some of you people have some very strong opinions about things involving Russia and RW. Nothing wrong with that, and people should/will take it for what its worth. Shoving it down someone's throat won't make it digest any easier.

Try for a moment to understand that its just YOUR opinion and it doesn't make it right in all cases. If one chooses to act in a manner that is not consistant with what you believe or do, it doesn't make them less of a man, and it surely doesn't make them wrong.

We all want to reduce our risk in anything we do. We do this or do that in an attempt to make it calculated. The language should be included in this. 

As someone who lives in another country and has had to learn and struggle with a foreign language, I can't tell how grateful I am to the people here who knew English. The help that they provided me, not only with getting things done, but for putting my mind at ease by not always having to have my "brain" in Russian mode (and this was the biggest part). I say this so that you can understand what your lady is going through. And I don't care how good you thinks she understands and speaks English...WITH YOU. It will be most certainly different in the real world.

Yes, things will improve over time, but at first it will be the case, and the first couple of years IMO will be the most difficult much less factoring in the language.

Serebro said she has met very few, if any, Westerners who speak Russian fluently. Well, by the same token, I have met very few Russians who could do the same with English, and I have (no doubt) spoken to many, many, more Russians that try to speak English than she has westerners who try to speak Russian.

I have taken Russians who had what they thought was a good command of the language to America only to find that while our communication was normal and relaxed, it was anything but when they had to deal outside that comfort zone.

So what am I getting at? There are a few reasons I think you should learn as much as possible. At this point now I can understand much more than I'm able to communicate effectively. As anyone who has ever tried to learn a new language knows this is usually the case. 

My intimate conversations (and most conversations) with my lady now consists of me listening to her tell me things in Russian. I go back and forth between English and Russian with her. I can see a big difference in her mannerisms and mood (obviously) when she does this than before when our conversations were mostly in English. I don't know about you, but I like it (and she really likes it) when I can make things more relaxed for her.  I would try and do the same if I lived in my own country as well. If this makes me "pussywhipped", then so be it.

You should see her eyes light up when I tell her something romantic in Russian, as opposed to saying it in English. I certainly believe it draws us closer.

BTW, I'm far from being fluent, but speak and understand close to an intermediate level.

For those of you that have been successful, or are starting to find success, you have much to offer, but not everything that worked for you will be the best decision for someone else. Even though I'm sure you've made some good decisions, consider yourself luckier than smart. Good luck.

chivo

[Christian]

Probably because:
- the Romans often translitered the Greek φ as ph
- Latin was the international language of science well into the XVIIth century (e.g. Newton's Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, published in 1687)

Hence the Greek word φωνή (sound) is 'phone' in French and English. Téléfon would have been equally well-pronounceable, and is written like that in most other languages.

BTW, "phonic" is not the right term to describe what you are alluding to. I have been fruitlessly searching for it for a long time, alas, and would have guessed on something like "orthophonographic" ('accurate rendering of sounds in writing', with no less than 3 phs in it ), were it not for the fact that it reminds too much of the description of a good stereo system .

Your etymological reference to the Greek 'phone' can be further elucidated from the Greek 'telos' (end, goal) hence telephone = end voice or sound.

But etymology is not a safe guide to understanding in written or spoken language, simply because the meaning of words is determined by context and authorial intent - not etymology alone.  In fact semantic ranges often defy etymological origins.

Christian

[Christian]

I think that for most learning Russian is like eating an elephant. You just can’t eat the bugger in a day a week or a month. But if you eat an elephant sandwich every day for two or three years then you will have eaten the entire thing. It’s the same with Russian except that if you miss a couple of elephant sandwiches (elephant gets boring after a hundred sandwiches) you have to eat them again.

There are a few (very few) people who are given a gift from God who can learn languages like Monet can paint or like Mozart could compose music. Most people don’t have this gift.

Just my two kopecks,


Bill

...iz mukhi slona...

Christian

 

[SANDRO43]

Your etymological reference to the Greek 'phone' can be further elucidated from the Greek 'telos' (end, goal) hence telephone = end voice or sound.

A totally useless addition: a reference to the word 'phone' (cited because it contains a "ph") is NOT 'further elucidated' by a reference to a different word like 'telephone'.

But etymology is not a safe guide to understanding in written or spoken language,

It is not its main purpose, etymology investigates the origins of words (lexicon), a subset of "written or spoken language". Go back and read the original question ("why isn't phonic, spelled fonic?") I was addressing with my answer .

simply because the meaning of words is determined by context and authorial intent - not etymology alone.

Whoever said it was ? 

In fact semantic ranges often defy etymological origins.

Rather obvious that subsequent usage may modify the original meaning of a word, it happens all the time, languages do not stand still.

[Mod7]

...iz mukhi slona...

You've already been cautioned before about entirely non-English posts. Want to go into Moderated status again ?

[Christian]

You've already been cautioned before about entirely non-English posts. Want to go into Moderated status again ?

No.  It was for flavor.  BTW I though the next step was anathema and gehenna.    Is this really the only bur under your saddle?

Christian

[Mod7]

No. It was for flavor.

Then you should extend to the other members the courtesy of understanding what that flavor was by adding a translation/equivalent in English, we have so much to learn from you .

Is this really the only bur under your saddle?

I don't ride horses/mules/asses, but if I did, maybe I'd find burrs rather than burs under my saddle.

[Serebro]

You've already been cautioned before about entirely non-English posts. Want to go into Moderated status again ?

No.  It was for flavor. Christian

Mod7, Christian was talking about the complicated process of making elephants of flies....
(delat' iz muhi slona)
the thread is about Russian, so Christian was teaching us Russians idioms...

[2tallbill]

I am sorry, I just can't resist this.

Bill, there are some people who feel we should all post only things we have direct experience with.  Therefore I have to ask if you have really tried eating an elephant or what qualifies you to post on this topic?  Perhaps you have a friend or associate who has actually eaten an entire elephant.   Have you done time studies.

Perhaps if each of the 2000 members here would kick in $ 10 or so we can buy you a dead elephant so you can have factual information to post.  If you feel a need to continue to post on this topic could you at least research the price of dead elephants for us so we can determine the feasibility of a time study?

Turbo, you busted me...................I have eaten very few elephant sandwiches (none actually). I am not sure how many freshly dead elephants are available in California at any price. I only know that you can get into big trouble using their tusks for anything. I have eaten, bear, buffalo, elk, moose, and a bunch of other critters it's just that you can eat them fairly quickly (much faster than learning Ruskiy) I lived on venison in college (or I might have starved). and know that a mule deer would rarely last more than a month or so around a hungry college student.

Take care,

Bill

[acrzybear]

Mod7, Christian was talking about the complicated process of making elephants of flies....
(delat' iz muhi slona)
the thread is about Russian, so Christian was teaching us Russians idioms...

I am glad he is teaching you Russian Serebro   You appear to be doing quite well!!.

I don't ride horses/mules/asses, but if I did, maybe I'd find burrs rather than burs under my saddle.

  Now THAT was funny

Want to go into Moderated status again?

   I think we know the answer to that question I think Christian has set a new record-in country less then a week and already warned by the Mods.
 
  I fought the mods, and the Mods won,  I fought the Mods and the Mods won 
(sung to the tune I Fought The Law by Bobby Fuller Four)

[mbwaring]

  Hi

  I just wanted let you know website Voice of Russia now has Russian lessons online
  It is now up to NO 5 so get online download issues 2007 was year Russian Language so there are resources to help you!
 http://ruvr.ru/index.php?lng=eng  English site other language links on left
 Russian lessons MP3 and text online in far right bottom or
  http://ruvr.ru/main.php?lng=eng&q=6693&cid=161&p=23.01.2007
 Open to discussion on languages as not much Russian around
 Maybe we can push upcoming president do more about it!
 Mike
Sydney

[Turboguy]

Turbo, you busted me...................
I have eaten very few elephant sandwiches ( I have eaten, bear, buffalo, elk, moose, and a bunch of other critters

I will likely be at the San Diego Zoo in about 6 weeks.  If they have any fresh dead elephants I will be driving my pickup and will load one up and bring it to you so we can get a factual report.   You got me on the food.  I don't think I ever ate any of those, maybe the Buffalo.  I did manage rattle snake, ants and grasshoppers though but of course I am a very picky eater anyway.

I will behave myself on the comment about the hungry college students and the mule deer. 

[catzenmouse]

I will likely be at the San Diego Zoo in about 6 weeks.

Better watch out TG... they've been looking to fill that empty dinosaur cage for awhile now...

[Turboguy]

Better watch out TG... they've been looking to fill that empty dinosaur cage for awhile now...

Perhaps if we find the guilty party we can find out how long it took him to eat the dinosaur.

[Taz]

Can any of these threads even stay remotely on track?

It is a wonderful idea to learn any Russian you can. It will improve your confidence, maybe keep you out of jail, help you find your lost wallet, etc.

Don't make any excuses, start today and learn a little bit every day. The longest journey begins with but a single step.

If my 70+ year old mother could learn quite a bit of Russian, almost none of you have any excuses. She's been in Ukraine for weeks on end, alone, without my help and survived just fine with the Russian CBTs (computer based training) I bought for her to learn.

Even a minimal 100 words can help you out quite a bit. I decided I really needed to learn Russian when I realized I might be forced to sleep outside a dump of an apartment complex because I couldn't speak the language well enought to find where I needed to go. It was below freezing and all I had was a windbreaker on as I expected someone to meet me. Its a long story for another day but that experience taught me that you must know more than a few words. If I hadn't known a few words it would have really been terrible.

[catzenmouse]

Can any of these threads even stay remotely on track?

No. Why do you ask?

Just like any conversation in life it winds a bit here and there. Stops to look at the pretty flowers and meanders on again. 

Ken

[carraig]

Can any of these threads even stay remotely on track?

Well, maybe as the instigator of the thread, I will give an update. The first part of the course (Russian 1) has now finished, It was defnitely worthwile and has given me a good grounding, especially in the grammar. I am supposed to start Russian 2 this week, but I am going to give it a miss. All the guys who talked about learning the alphabet are spot on, I was behind a lot because I could not read the words, I am now concentrating on learning the alphabet better and hopefully will come back to the grammar. I still have an MP3 loaded with conversational Russian that I am learning from, and will continue with this method.
One good thing about the class is that I have made some new friends who travel to Russia a lot, so the networking aspect of joining a class is an extra bonus (one guy is trying to get me fixed up with his sister in law,lol)
Overall, I find it difficult, I have never been studious, but one thing I have noticed, is hearing and understanding words in films with  Russian, (The hunt for Red October etc)
But Im hoping the constant listening to Russian from the MP3 wil leave one of those "mind maps" that psychologists refer to

[Taz]

Problem with most Russian courses is they don't meet often enough to really help you. This is one area where repetition is very important. That is why I suggested in another thread to NOT take a class initially as it is often a waste of time.

That is why I suggested going the CBT route (computer based training). I could listen to it repeateadly and reinforce my learning. The CBT would also show my "weak" areas by testing me or doing the exercises. A class that meets once a week is pretty much worthless unless you have some basis already in the subject.

[BC]

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Congrats Taz!

[Daveman]

A couple of things which helped me (though believe me, I'm very much still a beginner) is first, to stop translating in my mind. To "think" in Russian. It's really not that difficult if you change your focus from "It's a different language" to "These are simply new vocabulary words for my already existing database of mental images".

Language is nothing more than a series of phonetic envelopes to send a mental image from one cognitive brain to another (or more aptly stated, to cause the receiver to pull up his/her filed image.. thus the origin ambiguity). It really is exactly that simple. Anything else is window dressing.  So, thinking about the words as "mental images" rather than "Words in a different language to be translated into my language" makes it much easier for me.

I firmly believe that any language course should spend the first month doing absolutely nothing other than practicing the pronunciation and inflections of the new vowel and consonant sounds. Slow and deliberate practice. But this is rarely the case in reality, as almost every class begins with words and phrases.  One trick to help get pronunciation improvement rapidly is to speak your native language with a Russian accent. Practice making your English words sound exactly like you hear your lady make them.. She's giving you many of the exact sounds you will need and you can practice it easily at any time.  When you can do the Russian accent pretty well, then move to the "mental images" and new vocabulary.

Soon you'll be able to interchange words on command without mental translation allowing you to understand rapid foreign speech easier and also speak the words you do know as soon as you get an image in your mind of what you want to say...

Writing Russian by hand also reinforces with that hand to mind connection as well.

but no matter how you slice it.. grammar is a pain and will take some study and practice and, unless you really get seriously serious about it, will never be perfect.  Oh, and if you are like me, you will need to buy the electric rolling R tongue insert...

And as mentioned practice is paramount though tough to do alone.

Works for me so far anyway,
Dave

[SANDRO43]

Not bad, Dave . I'd add a few observations to explain why a single formula won't fit all (much like WOVO vs. WMVM ).

- Natural aptitude: some have it, some don't, like the innate gifts for mathematics, drawing, etc.
- Related to the above, a musical ear: it's hard to reproduce sounds that you cannot differentiate. Furthermore, a language not only has individual sounds, but rhythms as well: one of the features that makes Arabic so unpleasant to the ear is its 'staccato' rhythm, due to the oft-interposed hamza (glottal stop). As well as three different H sounds, one of which is VERY explosive .

Absence of the above makes learning a foreign language difficult for most grown-up people, while parroting is much easier and often even fun for kids. Furthermore, I'd say that without some 'fun' component, any learning is often doomed.

Language is nothing more than a series of phonetic envelopes to send a mental image from one cognitive brain to another (or more aptly stated, to cause the receiver to pull up his/her filed image.. thus the origin of ambiguity).

It was Swiss linguist Ferdinand de Saussure (1857–1913: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_de_Saussure) who came up with the distinction of 'signifié/signifiant', a word and its meaning, as two culturally-related but not identical entities. However, I wonder how this realisation, at intellectual level, may help beginners at a practical level.

Another consideration is that the 'model' of polygloxy is not that of interchangeable sound/word sets that one switches when necessary, but rather that of two radio stations broadcasting different programs. When I switch from Italian to English or French or Spanish, it's like tuning in to different stations. In one given language I may know the meaning of a given word, without necessarily having its equivalent in the others: I read many novels by C.S Forrester and other writers on the Royal Navy of the late 1700s - early 1800s, and undertsood what 'ratlines' and 'topmen' meant; only much later did I stumble upon 'griselle' and 'gabbieri', their Italian translations. In this connection, I often offer the suggestion of reading/listening to something dealing with one's favourite topics (philosophy, sports, water bugs, whatever), which offers two advantages: keeping interest alive, and context for 'guessing' what something may mean.

I firmly believe that any language course should spend the first month doing absolutely nothing other than practicing the pronunciation and inflections of the new vowel and consonant sounds. Slow and deliberate practice. But this is rarely the case in reality, as almost every class begins with words and phrases.

I have some doubts. Consider: boredom (always counter-productive to learning) and the fact that vowel/consonant sounds never occur alone (except in monosyllables), but in company of other sounds in words, which also gives some 'meat' to the learning process. I'd say that prolonged subliminal exposure, say a TV/radio station/tape playing in the background without your giving it your conscious attention, may help your ear tune-in. Mimicking repeated bits without bothering about their meaning, say the standard introduction to the evening news program, may also get your tongue accustomed gradually to its strange new work. A process more like learning a new song.

One trick to help get pronunciation improvement rapidly is to speak your native language with a Russian accent. Practice making your English words sound exactly like you hear your lady make them.. She's giving you many of the exact sounds you will need and you can practice it easily at any time. When you can do the Russian accent pretty well, then move to the "mental images" and new vocabulary.

An original approach, though personally I could not use it, I'd feel like a stereotype Russian movie character .

Writing Russian by hand also reinforces with that hand-to-mind connection

I'd also include the eye-to-mind connection (images, pictures). The more you reinforce, the better.

but no matter how you slice it.. grammar is a pain and will take some study and practice

Unfortunately so, since it is usually given out in bits and pieces, individual bricks with which you're supposed to build your own house. Very seldom did I meet teachers good enough to give me the overall plan, THEN the methods, tools and materials to do my own construction work.

And as mentioned practice is paramount though tough to do alone.

Absolutely, as in sports or other 'unnatural' endeavours .

[Jet]

 Oh, and if you are like me, you will need to buy the electric rolling R tongue insert...

Try starting with your tongue in the top of your mouth instead of the bottom   

I never had much problem with the rolling "R" but it took me a friggin' month to get zdravstvuite down!

[Taz]

In real estate it is "location, location, location" and in language it is "practice, Practice, PRACTICE!" There is absolutely no subistitute for practice.

I too understand Sandro commented on. I have some words in certain languages that I could tell you their counterparts in another language. I grew up speaking Spanish so the rolling of "R's" is no problem for me. There are words I know in Spanish but not English.

At this point my Spanish vocabulary is far smaller than my English one though. I speak English without an accent and sadly my Spanish now has an English accent sometimes. 

One of the most interesting times in my life was a trip I took on the Volga River with my super sweet (and hot) love of my life from Siberia. She spoke almost no English. She was just starting to learn it at the university. My mom decided to go at the last minute and she invited a friend along as well. Neither my mom nor her friend spoke any Russian.

It was pretty obvious I was going to be the translator between us all. My Russian wasn’t that great at this time anyway. We all pile on to the ship and I of course bunk with my love.

First day we head left port in Moscow on the way to Peter via some interesting towns. We go to dinner and at our table we are paired with 2 older couples from Italy. Nobody in their group spoke either English or Russian. This was going to be a tough trip for them as it was either Russian or English for menus, tours, entertainment, etc.

It had been a few years since I’d been in Italy and I had forgotten quite a bit of the little Italian I knew. My Spanish base was similar to knowing Russian and often being able to understand some Ukrainian. Long story short is somehow I ended up becoming the translator for this group of Italians. They were a really wonderful group of people to be around. They were in their late 50’s early 60’s and really loved life.

It was almost comical to watch me I’m sure. We’d ALL take a tour in English. My girlfriend wanted to be with me except for one tour she really wanted the Russian version and I had no problem with that. We’d go through the tour in English but sometimes the guide had terrible English or strong accent.

My mom and her friend didn’t really understand them a lot of the time. I’d say it so my mom could understand it. I then do my best in Russian. Finally I end up in trying in my version of SpaTalian. Sort of a mix of Spanish as close as I could get it to Italian. Then they leader of the Italian group would clean up my Italian and re-broadcast it to his little group. Then the questions would go start with his wife or their friends and it would go from their Italian into the relatively simple Italian I understood then back to whomever needed to be asked.

By the end of the day my head was like linguini. I never seemed to answer the right person in the right language. By the end of the cruise, 2 weeks later, my Italian was good enough the group was able to understand me without a lot of help. I was getting pretty good at simultaneous translation where I would immediately start translating into another as I was hearing the first rather than waiting for the original speaker to finish.

Russian is not easy to learn and at times I wondered what ever possessed me to learn in the first place. All I can say is all those thoughts were washed away when I could finally tell the woman I loved in her native language how much I cared about her. When I saw her face light up with her love for me that was the moment it was all worthwhile. That wasn’t my main reason to learn but it was the moment that truly made it all worthwhile for me. YMMV.

[2tallbill]

Try starting with your tongue in the top of your mouth instead of the bottom   

I never had much problem with the rolling "R" but it took me a friggin' month to get zdravstvuite down!

It took me at least that long and I still to this day can't say s udOvoLstvIJEM (with pleasure) so that a single
Russian speaker can understand what I said. I have even filmed an RW saying the word with my movie camera
thinking that if I held my lips etc like she did I could learn to say it. But NYET (no) ne Udachi (no luck)

UspEhov! (have success)

Bill


PS
clasna kryto, klevo or krooto = cool