Bringing the family

[Vaughn]

Maybe it was all those chicken fried steaks in your youth....

  ...but let's shine the light brighter on yer better half:

 It seems to me your Etna appears to be my wife's age, which is a pair of 4's.
And these dreamers continue to overlook the cream of the FSU crop in their vanity search!

[Blues Fairy]

How do most RW view such men?  I would like to hear YOUR opinion on guys like DKMM?   
Serebro, Lily, Blues Fairy or any other RW's opinion here would be interesting.

Ken, I prefer not to pronounce judgements on people I hardly know.  I've never seen DKMM, much less how he interacts with his Mother, to call him Momma's boy.  Some men do have very close friendly relationships with their mothers and if the latter are fit and adverturous enough to visit Russia, I don't see why they should not, if they wish to.  Perhaps it's a little strange, at 29, to rely on the parents' financial support - but this tendency is far from conspicuous apart from letting them pick up one check and possibly contribute to the wedding.  Any other major signs I've missed?

I went to see my fiance's parents - because it was important for ME to see them before I said yes.

[BillyB]

  DKMM is reporting back to members of this forum his and his family's reactions/opinions of their trip to Russia.  Your opinion is not relavant to their report on their opinion of their time in Russia. 

It was said earlier in the thread and should apply throughout. Gentlemen, let's use some self discipline on trip reports. If DKMM wants relationship advice, he'll ask in another sub forum. DKMM probably acts his age and probably appropriately match with a RW in her young-mid 20's. If he's not suitable for her, then who is? 40-70 yo men who has the maturity a young 20's RW wants?

Also, before making accusations DKMM is rushing things, if my memory serves me correct, this it the fourth time he's visiting his fiancee and he did not propose on his first visit to her.

[William3rd]

Temper, temper. . . .

You "old farts" must of struck a nerve in the boy. Considering he doesnt use this board anymore, he spends an awful lot of time here.

I forgot about the cubic zirconium promise ring from months back. . . . .

DK- mellow out. . . you are not impressing anyone with faux bravado. Try to be a little more gentlemanly. You are taking this board way too seriously. Hopefully, this is just due to being a keyboard commando but if this flows into how you interact around others, I see trouble in paradise.

[Turboguy]

I just reread this whole thread in case I missed something.  I didn't.

DKMM, you are 29 years old.  You show a lot more maturity than some people who are twice your age.   I will say that it is the first time I have heard of anyone taking their family along but I think it is wonderful that they could go and a sign you have a family that your fiancee can be proud to join. 

When I reread the thread I payed particular attention to anything that was said about your fiancee.  I got the impression she is very much in love with you.   I got the feeling she is very protective of you which is a trait she shares with many Russian women.   I got the feeling she has a lot of pride which is a good thing.  I got the feeling that she was delighted to have your family visit and I think it is a good thing.  I could not see even the tiniest hint of any immaturity on her part.

When someone comes on and posts some red flag actions of a woman I can agree there is a reason to attack.  There was no excuse for Ken to attack your fiancee.   His statement was totally groundless and shows a total lack of class and an immaturity well beyond anything you have been accused of. 

I will make one other comment DKMM.  I can't blame you a bit for getting upset that they attacked your fiancee with no justification.  The cold hard reality of it is that it feeds them.   The truth is they like to put others down to make themselves feel important.  If they get a reaction from you they have succeeded.

DKMM, you posted a very nice and very interesting TR.  You have made 4 trips to spend time with your fiancee and plan one more before she is here.   You are doing things right.  You are young and young people don't have the life experience that will come in time but you are doing much better for your age than average.  My son is a little older than you and I wish he had half the maturity and common sense you show. 

[wiz]

Wiz,

Correct again!  I'm not sure how I don't know my E as I've already spent 4 trips with her, logged 30 days face to face and speak to her on average an hour a day, twice everyday.  I've not gone a day without communicating with her since mid April.  You telling me most guys here spent more time than that before they got engaged?  Remember also that she speaks good English so we are able to get to know each other quite well.  It seems like a strange concept to suggest I don't know E well, although months ago that was true.  In any case, if Groovs guildlines stand, then I'm doing just fine.  We are spending another 2 weeks together in November but that's probably it until she gets here.

I had a bigger risk here in the US of a girl marrying me for my money.  E actually thinks I'm rather poor and is convinced she will need to get a job so we can save up to have a child.  In this regard I did my best to keep her expectations at a minimum, but there is only so much I can do.

DKMM

Of course I know how many trips you have made in Russia to meet your fiancé and of course I also believe that you speak to her every day on the phone. For your information I do exactly the same daily with my new woman and despite that her English is not fluent, it is good enough to have good communication and understanding. I can assure you that not her or me want or pushing to make any serious decision, as you did with your fiancé, until both of us are ready and sure we want to go ahead, get engaged and married and that probably may happen next summer. Meanwhile I can see that I will spent a lot of time during the winter in Russia again, like last year, making sure we live like a husband and wife as long as possible. It is my view that you need at least 6 months face time with your woman before you make any decision and of course “free time” is on my side, unlike you.

Let me tell you, out of my personal experience, that the cultural differences you will have to face are big, your patience will be tested to the limit and still you will be short, as Groov said and JB has also admitted in one of his posts and that is where experience is needed to navigate safely the boat in calm waters and to a safe port. You have to admit that you are young and you don’t have that (maybe previous) experience and I hope that your family and especially you mom can help you and advise you and I see nothing wrong with that.

I am also an old fart (62 yrs old and my woman is 44) but I still believe that the time spent with your girl (30-40 days) is very little to be sure you are doing the right thing. It is my view that you are rushing things a bit and I am not insulting you or attacking you and your girl, like others did. When the K-1 visa comes through and she comes to be with you, I am sure she will realise yours and your family’s financial position but I hope by then she will be crazy about you! We were all, the old farts, young sometime ago and I am sure most of us have done crazy things in our life, I still do! Most if not all of us have had broken marriages and long term relationships before looking to the FSU for a wife.

I agree with Turbo’s comments

“DKMM, you posted a very nice and very interesting TR.  You have made 4 trips to spend time with your fiancé and plan one more before she is here.   You are doing things right.  You are young and young people don't have the life experience that will come in time but you are doing much better for your age than average.”

I suggest you calm down a little and try to listen to people’s advice here, I didn’t and you know what happened. At the end of the day it’s going to be your own decision, responsibility and it will affect your own life.

I don’t agree with the comments of most people here that have attacked you, as I don’t also agree that a man of 45 + years should marry a young woman of 25 Years old because that marriage is nothing more than a financial transaction. Of course if both participants agree to that then it is their own business and nobody else.

I have noticed on this and other boards that it is the majority of older American men who are looking for very young women in Russia and not for mature women. The age difference has been talked to death here and I am convinced that these same vain men are looking for ornaments to have as wives, to show off and they perpetuate the myth of happy and successful marriages.

[KenC]

It was said earlier in the thread and should apply throughout. Gentlemen, let's use some self discipline on trip reports. If DKMM wants relationship advice, he'll ask in another sub forum. DKMM probably acts his age and probably appropriately match with a RW in her young-mid 20's. If he's not suitable for her, then who is? 40-70 yo men who has the maturity a young 20's RW wants?

Also, before making accusations DKMM is rushing things, if my memory serves me correct, this it the fourth time he's visiting his fiancee and he did not propose on his first visit to her.

Billy,
I strongly defended DKMM's right to his bad opinion of Russia in this thread even though looking back at it now, he does come off as an ugly (privledged) American.  I also have the right to respond with my opinion to other posters views of DKMM's actions.  In this case it was Jazzy.  I find DKMM's actions through out his process to be very immature.  No where in this thread have I said anything about him "rushing things."  I beg to differ with you about the proposal though.  The guy boaught the ring before he even met her as I recall.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Billy,
I strongly defended DKMM's right to his bad opinion of Russia in this thread even though looking back at it now, he does come off as an ugly (privledged) American.  I also have the right to respond with my opinion to other posters views of DKMM's actions.  In this case it was Jazzy.  I find DKMM's actions through out his process to be very immature.  No where in this thread have I said anything about him "rushing things."  I beg to differ with you about the proposal though.  The guy boaught the ring before he even met her as I recall.
KenC

No no, he bought the ring when he already met her of course, it is just the other question he met her only once and it was all quick , but he never bought the ring before meeting her

[KenC]

I just reread this whole thread in case I missed something.  I didn't.

When someone comes on and posts some red flag actions of a woman I can agree there is a reason to attack.  There was no excuse for Ken to attack your fiancee.  

If you reread the thread as you say, please show me where I attacked his fiancee!
 

His statement was totally groundless and shows a total lack of class and an immaturity well beyond anything you have been accused of.

 
Turbo, you have already proven in recent posts that you run your mouth without thinking and make a habit of talking in circles, so please show me what "statement" I made regarding DKMM's fiancee.  Is it the one where I worry about her future with such an immature man child like DKMM?  Let save you some time, you blowhard (all hot air and no substance), I never made a statement about her except to possibly agree with jb thinking she may also be immature not to have seen through DKMM.

I will make one other comment DKMM.  I can't blame you a bit for getting upset that they attacked your fiancee with no justification.

 
Again with the phantom "attack" on his fiancee.  Show me where the attack was made or shut up.

The cold hard reality of it is that it feeds them.   The truth is they like to put others down to make themselves feel important.  If they get a reaction from you they have succeeded.

Sorry if I post the cold hard realities as I see them.  It is better to be honest than to give half azz advice as you do just to be nice.  You would rather be nice and give bad advice than tell the truth.

DKMM, you posted a very nice and very interesting TR.  You have made 4 trips to spend time with your fiancee and plan one more before she is here.   You are doing things right.  You are young and young people don't have the life experience that will come in time but you are doing much better for your age than average.

And just what is that great accomplishment?  To get a RW to accept a diamond ring?  Not much of an accomplishment as I see it.  Anyone can get engaged.
 

My son is a little older than you and I wish he had half the maturity and common sense you show. 

He must take after the old man then.
KenC

[jb]

Vaughn,

Actually, my Etna's age now begins with a 5, it was a pair of 4's when we married.   We are probably the oldest couple here. Both individually and collectively.

However, I'm in total agreement with you.   We got the women of Russian mythology, those with the strong traditional family values, the cream of the crop.

[KenC]

No no, he bought the ring when he already met her of course, it is just the other question he met her only once and it was all quick , but he never bought the ring before meeting her

Jazzy,
I stand corrected, thank you for jogging my memory. 

After rereading some old threads now I have the story straight.  DKMM had spent two whole days with his "E" prior to buying the ring.  He made some classic statements before the trip with the preconceived purpose of getting engaged like:

I am just not interested in dating for years.  I'm either going to engage her or will dump her at the end of this trip

I got to the door and a girl came in that could have been her (afterall the photos are not always so accurate.  So I said hello and then “oops sorry you aren’t her” in English which totally confused this poor girl.  Anyhow I go outside and there she is.  Wow what a beautiful girl.  I catch my breath and invite her in.

Showing that he couldn't even recognise her.

I gave her the mp3 player I bought her which she liked very much and gave me a kiss on the cheek.  It was a different feeling than the last time I did this because I barely knew this girl.  We had exchanged maybe 10 emails total prior and honestly I did it with the intentions of a warmup to Tver.

And how could I ever forget the one about "E" "forgetting" to mention she was married before?  As it only came out when DKMM filled out the paperwork for the K-1.
KenC

[jb]

I don't see how Jazzy can defend this adventure.  It has all the makings of a prelude to a train wreck. 

Shades of P/G.

KenC could be wrong, but he rarely is.

[I/O]

I'm done with this.

Just a side comment. DKMM if you mean the above seriously, then consider your words very seriously before you utter them to a RW in the face of a few blunt statements. (Which you will get) "Toss the teddy out of the pram" when it gets a bit tough with her and you'll find yourself flying solo very quickly.

I/O

[Jazzyclassy]

I don't see how Jazzy can defend this adventure.  It has all the makings of a prelude to a train wreck. 

Shades of P/G.

KenC could be wrong, but he rarely is.

I am not defending anyone JB ,I know many things what DKMM does how I would never done that at all and I told him my opinion from the start, I just think that many guys are the way too hard on him , that's  it. I put myself on his place, I already been criticised and maybe will be even more more and more, just it is unpleasent to always hear something bad about one's actions personality and wrong values one possess,

what is he  doing it is his life and how he views it and how he wants to do that, maybe it is wrong, maybe it is completely wrong , but how can another person give the other one his/her head ? there is no way of doing it .

I just want to be positive  and try to understand people .

I just do not want to offend the person for nothing , yes his main mistake was that he wrote his story here- that is his total mistake, but I find it some typical  american feature always to boast and brag no matter what  no offence

[Turboguy]

I am not defending anyone JB ,I know many things what DKMM does how I would never done that at all and I told him my opinion from the start, I just think that many guys are the way too hard on him , that's  it. I put myself on his place, I already been criticised and maybe will be even more more and more, just it is unpleasant to always here something bad about one's actions personality and wrong values one possess,

what is he  doing it is his life and how he views it and how he wants to do that, maybe it is wrong, maybe it is completely wrong , but how can another person give the other one his/her head ? there is no way of doing it .

Nice post Jazzy,

Ken, let me start off by saying I was wrong and I apologize.   It was not you who insulted his fiancee.  I was a little mislead by DKMM's comment about bashing and should have read back a second time.   I just think when things get to the name calling and flared temper stage it is past the point where anyone can be helped.

jb, while I am apologizing I will also apologize to you.  I don't think the fiancee needs to be dragged into the insults but saying she was immature is not the worst insult I have ever heard from you. 

I do have to agree with Jazzy that you guys are being to hard on him.  He is young and for his age he is not acting immature.   Yes, taking the family is a little different but it does not make him a momma's boy and I can't see that it is wrong.  It is just a little different and as long as he was not looking for them to make the decision it is not any big deal.  I think we all want the approval of our families.   I think those who are mature are going to do what they believe in with or without that approval.

I have to agree that there is a risk of a train wreck but there is with any relationship.  I think if we are too hard on people then we won't get to hear the stories that can help us learn.  I also think if we are too hard on them our chance to help them is lost in the anger that follows. 

[KenC]

Turbo,
Apology accepted.

There are risks, then there are foolish risks and then there are also calculated risks.  To get the true flavor here, one must take into account the whole picture, not just the most current snapshots.

I know we have a fundamentally different viewpoint of the function of this forum.  You think we should be here to encourage everyone's actions, no matter how foolish they are.  Look at your statement "I have to agree that there is a risk of a train wreck" in reference to DKMM's actions (which I whole heartily agree).  But then you sugar coat it (to be the nice guy that you are) with " but there is with any relationship."  Of course you are right when you say that there are risks involved with any relationship.  But don't you also agree that some relationships have more risks than others?

I disagree with the approach that everything should always be blue sky and rainbows regardless of how foolish the actions can be.  To me, to encourage a foolish endeavor is wrong and very misleading.  I have told you in the past, that your actions along these lines are very detrimental to the members.  When you are giving a member the "rah rah" treatment when you know that his chances of success are diminished by his actions or could possibly be improved by taking alternate actions, you do him no favor.  You hurt guys by endorsing foolish behavior IMO.
KenC

[groovlstk]

I had a bigger risk here in the US of a girl marrying me for my money.  E actually thinks I'm rather poor and is convinced she will need to get a job so we can save up to have a child.  In this regard I did my best to keep her expectations at a minimum, but there is only so much I can do.

DKMM,

I'm not going to rag on you as you've been taken to task pretty hard here, but again I have to question how committed you and your fiancee are and how well you know each other if she thinks she's marrying a pauper?

That scenario may have worked in Grimm's Fair Tales, but this is real life.

If you feel the need to disguise your financial status even at the 11th hour, what does that say of your trust in this girl? Are you going to move into a ramshackle home and eat porridge for the first six months of her time in the US as a test of her commitment to you before you give her the keys to Graceland? On the one hand you talk of how sure you are of her love and commitment, yet from day one your actions consistently indicate distrust and a need to protect yourself in the event she's not what she seems to be.

[BillyB]

Groov,

I think it's to DKMM's advantage he did not disclose/boast about his finances as many men do. He probably got rid of a lot of materialistic women in his writing campaign. I know I did. His woman is willing to marry him for being a regular guy living a normal life. She is willing to work if she has to in her marriage. That is admirable trait and she seems like a modest girl. DKMM could be sure that he will not get divorced based on unfortunate events in the case he goes broke someday.  She does know that he can afford 4 trips to see her, one to the Dominican Republic so I assume she understands he has enough money to support a family.

[groovlstk]

Groov,

I think it's to DKMM's advantage he did not disclose/boast about his finances as many men do. He probably got rid of a lot of materialistic women in his writing campaign. I know I did. His woman is willing to marry him for being a regular guy living a normal life. She is willing to work if she has to in her marriage. That is admirable trait and she seems like a modest girl. DKMM could be sure that he will not get divorced based on unfortunate events in the case he goes broke someday.  She does know that he can afford 4 trips to see her, one to the Dominican Republic so I assume she understands he has enough money to support a family.

Billy,

I'd agree with you 100% if he were in the courting phase, in fact it would be suicide for a guy with significant assets to go around Russia flaunting those assets, as he'd attract scammers and whores like flies to honey. But once a guy has made a commitment to marry a woman -- a woman about whom DKMM goes on and on about how much mutual love and trust they share -- the prospect of protecting his backside should have long ago been laid to rest.

Again, I can't help but note that DKMM talks a good game when it comes to love and trust but his actions tell a different story.

[BillyB]

But once a guy has made a commitment to marry a woman -- a woman about whom DKMM goes on and on about how much mutual love and trust they share -- the prospect of protecting his backside should have long ago been laid to rest.

Hopefully DKMM comes back to finish his story. He has told much about his life here and he once mentioned he's in a special situation where family finances are mingled and having a prenup is necessary. I gave him advice before on prenups on how to deliver it to his lady and I like to know how it turned out if he did indeed talk about it.

I know many don't agree with the way he is handling things but I like to see his story unfold since he went through a year and great lengths to tell it and continue to participate on the forum. He knows how everyone feels but it better to say your thoughts once and if he chooses to ignore advice, that's his choice. Other newbies may take heed on your advice but not if it's rammed down their throat. Any of you go to church and ever see a bum attend for the first time? Do you think it's constructive to go and criticise his attire, his lack of knowledge, and lifestyle of probably being a drunk or do you simply welcome him and hope he continues to participate and learn? Personally I like to see DKMM here more often than not.

[Turboguy]

Yes, dear let's get married.  We may have to live in a cardboard box for the first year or two but we love each other.  By the way, I need a prenup to protect my assets.  Hummm

Ken, lots of people get married in their early 20's and stay married for decades or more.  I can't think there were all fully mature and settled.  A little immaturity is not the kiss of death and I can't really say that DKMM showed that much immaturity. 

[ScottinCrimea]

I for one hope that DKMM sticks around.  Of course I see some immaturity in his actions, just as anyone with 20+years more of hindsight and experience will see these, and just as I see the immaturity of many of my actions leading to my first marriage (which lasted 18 years, by the way). I have also noted many things that he has done right.  The final outcome will be decided by what he does FROM NOW ON, and I would like to think we can help him with this, as second guessing his past actions won't do much good at this point.

[DKMM]

Snova ya!  I was talked into coming back and learned about the "ignore" feature at the same time.  I already like how it cleaned up my thread!

I certainly did get a bit angry there but its not something I give much a toss about anymore considering the sources.  I also understand that some people when succesful at something assume that makes them an expert on the broad subject, but that isn't always the case.  I'll leave it at that.

I'm delighted that people take an interest in my RW love life and I'm open to differing opinions.  But if you just want to tell me I'm stupid or immature I'll use the ignore button and move on.

To address the many responses:  Turbo, Wiz et al thanks for the kind remarks.  I do appreciate your points of view even though your situations are far different than mine.  I'm in the minority here marrying a RW while in my 20s and building a new life together that includes having children etc.  I think I'm even more in the minority marrying a modern worldly Moscow woman, who surprises me with how much she isn't like the RW that are discussed on here.  Am I saying my situation is different?  You bet I am. 

E loves my family and already talks to my parents about wanting to go on camping trips with them and the like.  Don't get me wrong, I want to have my own family.  And my folks are turning into snowbirds soon anyhow.  But I come from a culture similar to Russia's (what drew me here in the 1st place) so family tightness is very natural for me.  And come to think of it now, yes my family's opinion does matter to me, but no way is that the reason I brought them (again it was E's wish to meet them!)

E knows my finances pretty well.  I've shared with her my monthly income and budget.  That was the part where she raised her concern because I pay so much for mortgage/taxes/utilities and that only leaves about $1700 a month to live on.  For a Moscow family that's not living comfortably so I understand her point.  Its not that she honestly thinks I'm poor but being middle class herself she was concerned in dropping down in lifestyle (since been laid to rest).

E doesn't have a handle on the "other" finances although I've not hid them.  Its beyond a RW's comprehesion to even grasp my situation, as even American women don't seem to get it except the ones from same backgrounds.  I don't need a prenup either because we use a Family Limited Partnership.  It doesn't matter, I trust E with my life at this point but I'm not sure even when she's my wife if I need to discuss exactly how much $ my share of the DKMM "family farm" is.  My brother's wife doesn't even want to know (its a hard concept for her too).  Anyways, yeah there is no point in pretending I'm richer or poorer than I am.  But I choose to err on the side of understating my financial means because that's also how I live, below my means.  Its not like I've been greedy when there but also don't go cheap (although I love to stay in dumpy flats).  We are going to Thailand in November and its going to be 5 star all the way although that's easy to do in Thailand.   

Whew that was fun, she should be waking up anytime now so I guess that's it for me.

[Turboguy]

I am glad you are still here.   Just a couple comments on the things you have said.   You are starting in a little earlier than most of the guys here but you are probably at a perfect age for that.   Many of us had to learn about AW the hard way, by marrying one.  Of course there are some good AW. 

I think most of us take the way finances work here pretty much for granted and you are right.  That is one of the things that is very different and hard for the RW to grasp.

Camping here is very different than camping there.  There it is more like backpacking and very basic here the American idea of camping seems to be in a 40' motor home with AC and satelite TV.

We went to Thailand last year and liked it a lot.  Gator would be a good guy to ask for suggestions.  He is pretty expert on Thailand.   Where in Thailand are you going?   I am not much of a fan of 5 star hotels or restaurants but you are right there are many there.

[BillyB]

E doesn't have a handle on the "other" finances although I've not hid them.  Its beyond a RW's comprehesion to even grasp my situation, as even American women don't seem to get it except the ones from same backgrounds.  I don't need a prenup either because we use a Family Limited Partnership.  It doesn't matter, I trust E with my life at this point but I'm not sure even when she's my wife if I need to discuss exactly how much $ my share of the DKMM "family farm" is. 

Although one doesn't want to think about divorce before getting married, you must prepare for it. DKMM, if by chance you do get a divorce, it would look very bad in front of a judge if her attorney had to dig up finances/assets you never disclosed to your wife.

I'm not sure how a Family Limited Partnership protects you but consult with an attorney to be absolutely sure what the laws are in your State. There are States that recognizes seperate property but that does not always protect you. When I had my divorce, I owned a property 10 years before marriage but because I did repairs on it with my labor, classified as community at the time of marriage, the judge figured there was community interest in the property. Judges are allowed of discretion and even if you think their may be less than 5% community interest in the property, the judge may give her 20% or more percent.