Future of Russian Government

[timothe]

Should we bomb the CIA building because they destroyed tapes of folks being waterboarded?

This statement is simply not true.  You have no idea what was on those tapes and neither does the media. 

Last I heard, the CIA is in the business of keeping secrets.  Compromising the already weakened CIA by revealing their operations to the public is bad American policy and I hope that no American president is stupid enough to do it.  (again)

[deccie]

All is relative....

Isn't that the truth. Deaths under American/coalition influence just become that euphemism "collateral damage".
Or the classic answer "we don't torture" without actually defining what torture is.

[BC]

This statement is simply not true.  You have no idea what was on those tapes and neither does the media. 

Last I heard, the CIA is in the business of keeping secrets.  Compromising the already weakened CIA by revealing their operations to the public is bad American policy and I hope that no American president is stupid enough to do it.  (again)

If the CIA is in the business of keeping secrets then surely they had absolutely no need to destroy these tapes.. can't they even trust their own?  If so that is sad indeed and something the media (and citizens) should be made aware of.

[edit]

Is quite interesting that on this board, acceptance of 'blind faith' is practically nil, but then again some members like yourself believe it is prudent to grant 'blind faith' in government institutions that exist without oversight.. all the while sucking your paycheck dry.

[BillyB]

So this is why hundreds of thousands have lost their lives?

Gentlemen, I was just telling a few interesting stories, I've already made my point why US went to war and that US does not want our economic competitors to have an advantage by ignoring UN resolutions.

But as far as deaths go, most Iraqi's will agree with the US less lives are lost after you count all the graves(millions) through all the wars Saddam put them through and the mass graves of political and religious enemies which included live burial of women and babies.

Saddam and Bin Laden were both trained by the US.. is it really any wonder why the US had problems dealing with them? - I think not.

The US isn't friends with those guys, it was strictly business and they were used as they used us. The feelings are mutual. When given the choice of USSR vs. Osama(Afghanistan) and Iraq vs. Iran, we chose Osama and Iraq. What's better to fight your enemies than using your other enemies? Fights are always going to happen but it's not good if say the USSR won all the time. If they did, they'd probably still exist.

[BC]

But as far as deaths go, most Iraqi's will agree with the US less lives are lost after you count all the graves(millions) through all the wars Saddam put them through and the mass graves of political and religious enemies which included live burial of women and babies.

So.. now the Iran/Iraq war is some kind of justification?.. funny that I never heard GWB mention that at all..

Care to quantify the numbers in mass graves vs Iraq casualties in the current turmoil? 

[timothe]

If the CIA is in the business of keeping secrets then surely they had absolutely no need to destroy these tapes.. can't they even trust their own?  If so that is sad indeed and something the media (and citizens) should be made aware of.

[edit]

Is quite interesting that on this board, acceptance of 'blind faith' is practically nil, but then again some members like yourself believe it is prudent to grant 'blind faith' in government institutions that exist without oversight.. all the while sucking your paycheck dry.

But you do admit that the statement about those tapes as related to the specific act of waterboarding was completely false, right?

I ask that question again to point out something that I consider to be very valuable.  And that is how information turns into misinformation through spin.  If you have a beef about the CIA destroying tapes, why exactly did you need to add the "spin" that the tapes were about waterboarding?  Why did you lie about that?

The reason I made the statement about my "blind faith" in government has everything to do with the checks and balances built into our political system.  Congressional oversight is part of those checks and balances.  You must not have comprehended my earlier post completely because I did use the words "checks and balances" to explain my faith in the US government.  You seem like a bright guy...did you ignore that statement on purpose like you lied about waterboarding on the tapes or did you simply gloss over my statement and then let emotion take over?

Congressional oversight as it related to the CIA destroying tapes is perfectly acceptable, but the information needs to remain classified to the general public, for obvious reasons.  Congressional oversight as it relates to the lates NIE report is also acceptable, but our press has decided to run with the Key Statements portion that was leaked to them to once again, do a "gotcha" on Bush.  No one from the press has read the entire NIE report.

The press has really backed our government in a corner on Iran because even if there was overwhelmingly good reason to raise the pressure on Iran, the latest "spin" on the issue is that they stopped their nuclear program  (And I'm not saying we should attack Iran or anything remotely similar to it), so therefore, the hands of our commander-in-chief are tied.  It's horribly irresponsible for the press to do this without qualifying exactly what they obtained from the NIE estimate and how they obtained it.  They (the press) even planned the exact date and time with which they were going to announce the story just to make Bush look that much worse.  (The story was held for 5 days because President Bush invited the media to ask him questions on Monday, December 3rd and he gave the press a full week's notice so they could arrange their questions)  "Gotcha!"

And that, in my opinion, is the real problem.  While the US government has checks and balances for all three branches of government, the mainstream media has no check against it.  The motives and/or political bias of AP and Reuters are never questioned.  These media outlets often omit important information and/or "spin" the information to fit their narrative. 

And that brings me back to the original point of my post.  I don't mind seeing anti-Bush, anti-American commentary on an international internet forum.  (I will defend my views, but I respect the right of others to speak their mind.)  However, I have no tolerance for misinformation...which is what it seems like you did intentionally in this thread, BC. 
   

[BillyB]

So.. now the Iran/Iraq war is some kind of justification?.. funny that I never heard GWB mention that at all..

Care to quantify the numbers in mass graves vs Iraq casualties in the current turmoil? 

For the third and last time, the US objective to go to war was not to save lives by preventing Saddam's rule of Iraq. Since you decided to bring in the amount of casualties of the war and blame Bush/USA, I let you know that less people are dying on average under the current situation than during Saddam's rule. It seems to be a fact you don't like but you can Google the numbers of deaths(millions) of all of Saddams conflicts, mass graves, and chemical attacks against his own and other nations people.

BC, do you blame Bush for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths in the first Gulf war too or will you give some credit to the other allies that teamed up with Bush? How about actually blaming Saddam for causing and bringing problems to Iraq? That's a concept that seems foreign to most people. Strange.

[BC]

Timothe,

You amuse me.  Yes, the media reports have indeed 'bent' my thoughts thus waterboarding was mentioned... Heck as far as is known they could be skewering with hot irons.

My objection is that there are no checks and balances at all for the moment.  Along with other constitutional rights they have been perverted or thrown out the Oval Office window.

The judicial and legislative branches system will never see these tapes thus no checks and no balances.

Really, I would feel more 'free' living in RU than in the land I was born.. well unless the CIA reads these posts and whisks me off in a little white jet to a 'facility' run by some foreign country and say that they just wanted me to have a bath.  I heard of such being done in UK, Germany and even Italy... but no reports from RU..

At least the Italians had the balls to issue arrest warrants for these CIA troopers, even if they end up just scratching..

Think the White House will allow extradition?

HAHA

[BC]

BC, do you blame Bush for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths in the first Gulf war too or will you give some credit to the other allies that teamed up with Bush? How about actually blaming Saddam for causing and bringing problems to Iraq? That's a concept that seems foreign to most people. Strange.

IMHO the first Iraq war was justified. Many countries joined in.
The war against Afghanistan was justified. Many countries joined in.

The war against Iraq was not justified. Few countries joined in and those that did are bailing.

I blame Bush for sticking his nose right into Saddam's @hole.  It's no wonder something stinks after pulling out.

Need I say more?

Oh well, again the Russians have been doing well.. they walk down the street avoiding the piles of sh!t while others insist on stepping in it..

[BillyB]

IMHO the first Iraq war was justified.

Fair enough BC. IMO, the second war is just an extension of the first. Saddam was given a second chance with conditions and a decade to run a clean operation and follow UN rules. He did not and he successfully got support from our previous allies that broke UN rules too. Regardless, occupation of Iraq would have sucked then as it does now. Remember Osama attacked the World Trade Center in 1993 and he and Iran had a hard on for us then as they do now. Roadside bombs and suicide bombers would have been in abundance in the early 90's too.

[BC]

I remember the first Gulf war very well.  I also shook my head when the pullout started and wondered why not just a few miles more..

The answer: George Bush was a smart man, much smarter than his son.

Bin Laden made Afghanistan his hideout and the Taliban felt the wrath they deserved.

Right now Bin Laden is in Pakistan and it seems nobody really gives a sh!t about him anymore.. almost like Bush wants him alive rather than dead.  Indeed, once Bin Laden is captured or killed folks will really begin to wonder what the next excuse is..

Believe me, I'd be the first to string him up.

[Gator]

BC wrote,

Really, I would feel more 'free' living in RU than in the land I was born..

You have voted with more than your feet.  Both your soul and your mind have left America.  Can I assume that you have given up your passport too?

Signed,
A fervent taxpayer

[BC]

BC wrote,
 

You have voted with more than your feet.  Both your soul and your mind have left America.  Can I assume that you have given up your passport too?

Signed,
A fervent taxpayer

I do have a EU passport, but the US requires I enter the US on a US passport. Even if I formally renounce citizenship will still get hassled so what the heck.. I still have to file a tax return after 45 years living overseas (I'm 47 years old) so until things really change I'll just renew and even vote. My children as well.
Isn't that a pi$$er?

Signed,
Expat veteran with a blue chain around his neck.

[timothe]

Timothe,

You amuse me.  Yes, the media reports have indeed 'bent' my thoughts thus waterboarding was mentioned... Heck as far as is known they could be skewering with hot irons.

Or, they could have done nothing illegal or out of the ordinary.  We don't know, do we?

  My objection is that there are no checks and balances at all for the moment.  Along with other constitutional rights they have been perverted or thrown out the Oval Office window.

The judicial and legislative branches system will never see these tapes thus no checks and no balances.

If the behavior by the CIA is even slightly suspected to be illegal by Congress, there will be hearings.  It is what the 108th Congress does best.  (or is it the 110th Congress?)

I'm not sure what the monkey references were...perhaps you recognized how you parrot whatever anti-American media sources you use to get your information and wanted to mock yourself?

[timothe]

The checks and balances in the US government still work.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/07/america/07cia.php

[deccie]

The checks and balances in the US government still work.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/07/america/07cia.php

That is in spite of the neocon agenda which has sought to imply any questioning of the government or military is somehow unpatriotic.

[BC]

The checks and balances in the US government still work.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/07/america/07cia.php

Unfortunately when there is a will, ways are found to circumvent these checks and balances.

If you have ever watched congressional hearings, you will note how many witnesses who are 'in the know' are somehow barred from saying anything.

With the branches of government fighting each other no good will come and the checks and balances rendered useless.

Im sure the RU government operates differently but the results are strikingly similar.

[Simoni]

The answer: George Bush was a smart man, much smarter than his son.

As history will definitely show.

The first Bush knew that the region was balanced, and left it that way. The second Bush signed up to his cabinet the discontents left over from his father's administration, who had an agenda about Iraq. You see, they had disagreed with their boss about taking out Iraq.   So they got jr to let them go in and "finish the job."   Cheney and Rummy were wrong....
As history will definitely show.

Their war has left America at much greater risk and created millions of new potential terrorists.  For you see, every time an IUD goes off and kills Iraq children, those parents blame it on America.  Change it around....if we were occupied by a foreign power with a different God, would you not feel the same way?

But truly, our war should have been in Afghanistan.

And on becoming energy independent of that region.  For you see, as evil as Iraq was and is, their neighbors are the same, or worse.  I'd have loved to use that 500 billion dollars for research and development in becoming energy independent and to stop pouring our money into that region to buy oil.  The only way to win that war is to pull our money out.

[deccie]

But truly, our war should have been in Afghanistan.

I can certainly agree with that. As well as more effort put into stabilizing Pakistan.

And on becoming energy independent of that region.  For you see, as evil as Iraq was and is, their neighbors are the same, or worse.  I'd have loved to use that 500 billion dollars for research and development in becoming energy independent and to stop pouring our money into that region to buy oil.  The only way to win that war is to pull our money out.

On a slightly related note. One thing has always confused me about those proposing the use of ethanol is the US's fixation on ethanol from corn. It seems entirely the wrong approach to me. As Russians know only too well you can produce ethanol (alcohol) from any plant material that contains sugar. It would seem to me for ethanol to play any significant  role (never a major role but perhaps significant) it needs to be produced from a low cost raw material. So instead of producing it from corn (which is a high cost raw material) it should be made from material that is currently disposed of. i.e. a wastestream. Such waste streams are quite plentiful if you look for them.

[Mir]

The answer: George Bush was a smart man, much smarter than his son.

No doubt and that is why George Sr. was a member of Phi Delta Kappa and George Jr. wasn not.

To many interests are involved in the oil business. I am not sure about US but in UK where the price of Petrol(gas) is now £1 per litre out of this the tax is around 70 pence. So quite a hefty source of income for the government.
And don't forget the money people make in this, the Bush dynasty being one of them.

[timothe]

To many interests are involved in the oil business. I am not sure about US but in UK where the price of Petrol(gas) is now £1 per litre out of this the tax is around 70 pence. So quite a hefty source of income for the government.
And don't forget the money people make in this, the Bush dynasty being one of them.

Another statement from Mir made completely on blind faith.  Bush went to war for personal profit?  Really?  What whack job source did you gleam this information from?

You do know that gas prices are more related to the supply and demand at the refineries than it is to oil prices, don't you? 

In the US, we pay about $.50 in tax for gas that costs $2.80 to $3.30.  Being from Texas, I pay at the low end of that scale.  More than half of the taxes I pay on gas are state taxes. 

[BillyB]

The first Bush knew that the region was balanced

Their war has left America at much greater risk and created millions of new potential terrorists.  For you see, every time an IUD goes off and kills Iraq children, those parents blame it on America.  Change it around....if we were occupied by a foreign power with a different God, would you not feel the same way?

 Bush Sr. was not that dumb, he knew the region was never balanced, after all, right after the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq attacked Kuwait, not to mention the problems around Israel. Bush Sr. was pressured by allies in the Middle East to hold off and give Saddam a second chance and maybe save soldiers lives at the same time. Although Saddam is a bad boy, he is still one of them(Arab).

America did not create millions of terrorists. Except for backers of Saddam's Baath party and Shiites who support Iran, most of the Iraqi people are friendly. The enemies always existed. If anything, the terrorists are in reduced numbers. Although we're fighting in their back yard, the attacks are dwindling.

I was over at a neighbors house and he had hired a Kurdish man to fix his car. I asked him how's everyhting back home in Iraq. He told me things are going very well from what his parents say. He calls everyday. He said the only problems are Saddam's leftovers running around and the religious fanatic Shiites who Iran is funding and encouraging them to tear the country apart.

To think Iraqi's hate America so bad that they'll blow their own children apart to get to a soldier passing out candy is simply ludicrous. If the Iraqi people can kill their kids without a second thought, they should be buried with the terrorists. Some of you guys think these terrorists are manufactured by the USA. Those guys were always crazy to begin with whether it's believing in religious or exisiting terrorist's propaganda or it's in their genes and they were simply born nuts.

The media is doing their best to show the little amount of wrong happening when the majority of the rebuilding of Iraq is going right. They want to put Bush in a bad light all the time without say he does any good. Months ago the media put on a General willing to speak out who said the country is on the edge of rebellion. Things are awfully quite now. I guess the media currently has little to report.

How many of you guys read from the media about the time Bush went to the UN to tell them they have corruption within the oil for food program? The UN did nothing until they were finally exposed. Saddam was quite successful buying off support with oil that should have instead been sold to feed his people.

How many of you guys in Europe were educated by your media that Saddam ran a pipeline into Syria and through Syria sold oil cheap to your nations and Russia in return for goods against UN resolutions. Or does your media claim only Americans/Bush are interested in oil?

Bush told our European friends politely to play by the rules they help make after the first Gulf war so that UN resolutions may work to get to the desired results. I guess oil and economic advantage was more important to Europe and Russia than seeing Iraq and it's people succeed in becoming a productive partner in the World community.

Guys, I would have no problems with you bashing America/Bush for all the wrongs you may think America/Bush has or what Bush/America has actually done, but you fail to see other nation's/people's wrongs and you fail to see what Bush/America does right. It's pure bias or you actually believe because you're drinking the media Koolaid. One good thing about Bush is with all the criticism of people who is trying to tell him how they'd be President and what he should do, he's handling it calm. That's a better reaction than most of us would have because most of us aren't Presidential material.

One thing has always confused me about those proposing the use of ethanol is the US's fixation on ethanol from corn. It seems entirely the wrong approach to me. As Russians know only too well you can produce ethanol (alcohol) from any plant material that contains sugar.

Deccie, why do you assume the American farmer, government and scientists are dumb and have a fixation on ethanol from corn? You have a habit of implying America isn't smart in the way things are done here whether it be what plants we use for ethanol or military equipment we should build. I can assure you the American government knows that combustable fuels can be produced from any plant as much as the Russians. If you do research, you will find ethanol is cheaper for us to make from corn. It is cheaper for us to make sugar from sugar cane and for the Russians, it's cheaper for them to make sugar from beets. Do you hear me saying "what's the matter with the Russians? They should grow sugar cane in their cold climate? A lot of factors are involved, one of such is soil conditions and the environment to grow crops. Also if you do more research, you will find American scientist trying to extract oil from algae. Once the cost of making fuel from other plants such as algae is lower than corn, then corn may take it's place in history as an ancient source of fuel your future generations may read about. Certainly, one day the cost of producing alternative fuel sources will be cheaper than fossil fuels. Those nations in the Middle East should be saving up for that rainy day or have some good friends that will continue to do business with them.

[deccie]

I was over at a neighbors house and he had hired a Kurdish man to fix his car. I asked him how's everyhting back home in Iraq. He told me things are going very well from what his parents say. He calls everyday. He said the only problems are Saddam's leftovers running around and the religious fanatic Shiites who Iran is funding and encouraging them to tear the country apart.

Interesting and as always with Billy, misleading and partial information..  It is not an accurate statement to judge the state of the nation of Iraq from the comments of a Kurd - without disclosing where he is from. They are in large part outside the conflict between Shia and Sunni.
 Where was this man's family living Billy? The northern part of Iraq where the majority of the Kurds are living is stable. With the exception of the instability between the Kurds and Turkey. But the Kurds are not dealing with the internal violence prevalent in in other parts of the country. Would you judge the stability of the US solely by what was going on in Florida?

[William3rd]

Wow- not even We the Sheeple are as dumb as some of the statements in this thread. But then- we the sheeple have been getting a rude awaking over the last couple of years.

Lets have another round of "Saddam was involved in 9/11" or "Saddam supported al quaida" or "we gotta fight em there so we dont fight them here"

[deccie]

Deccie, why do you assume the American farmer, government and scientists are dumb and have a fixation on ethanol from corn? You have a habit of implying America isn't smart in the way things are done here whether it be what plants we use for ethanol or military equipment we should build. I can assure you the American government knows that combustable fuels can be produced from any plant as much as the Russians. If you do research, you will find ethanol is cheaper for us to make from corn.

it may well be what your scientists know and your government agencies but it is not what your politicians know. Every single time I have heard a US politician mention ethanol it has always been mentioned in conjunction with corn.

As with your assertion it is cheaper to produce ethanol from corn than a waste product. What bollocks.

Lets see. According to the last futures trade data I have Corn is trading at $417 USD per tonne. Converting the corn to HFCS helps with transport costs. But even if it is more efficient on a per tonne yield basis of alcohol there is an awful lot of catchup to do in terms of the cost of other raw materials.

Most of the corn/alcohol/viable fuel equations i have seen out there assume a far lower price per tonne for corn than is actually out there in the market today.