Character Problems with RM and RW

[William3rd]

There is probably not a single study out there that would measure how many of RW with mental illnesses have joined websites. The closest that you would come would be to a study that generally measures mental illnesses in the country as a whole.

I think that he is probably correct in the general statement that there are large numbers that have joined websites regardless of what the overall percentages are in the country itself.

[ScottinCrimea]

I think that he is probably correct in the general statement that there are large numbers that have joined websites regardless of what the overall percentages are in the country itself.

But then look at the large numbers of AM that I would consider mentally ill that have joined websites and/or pursued RW, not to mention the large numbers of mentally ill AW you can find on websites.  Just by the numbers there are bound to be plenty, but I think that the assumption that those that join the websites are more likely to be mentally ill or that the FSU has a higher number of mentally ill than anywhere else are statements that are not supportable and shouldn't be stated as fact.

[Gator]

Scott,

I look for depression symptoms;  I was married to a clinically depressed woman for 25 years and do not wish to revisit that one. 

Every RW to whom I have answered “Why are you divorced from your wife?” has no understanding of mental illness, brain chemistry, therapy, etc.  They reply, “If she is depressed she should come to Russia – she would not have time to be depressed.”

I too think that the incidence of depression should be the same in Russia as in remainder of the world except that “walking wounded” receive no diagnosis much less therapy.  I attempted one time to find a psychiatrist in Moscow, and they are a rare breed. 

   

[Lily]

Also, I can't figure out the logic behind the justification: "Moscow psychologists say that an affair appears rather inevitable for those Russians who have to share their two-room apartments with in-laws." Why is it inevitable? What is the link between living in cramped apartments with your extended family and having a fling with a woman (or man) who likely lives in a cramped two-room apartment? I can't see the link.

I'd say that psychologist acted unprofessionally by publicly asserting the point that is arguable and individual-specific at least.

I will try to explain what he or she may have to mean.

If a couple share an apartment with an extended family, it may be assumed that the sexual life of this couple occurs in total lack of intimacy. Like they are supposed to make love on their bed while their parents in law are actually sleeping at the couch only a few steps away, often separated by a wardrobe or something, so every movement can be heard by either couple. Therefore the couples may want to avoid making love at home and look for some place outside home.

Here is a definite lost of logics in observation. Logically, the couple may want to look for place to make love together. The advisor however says that they often do it separately.  Porbably her way of thinking was that as soon as they are promtped to make love outside home, they may also choose to make it outside their marriage.. No logics, agree with you.

[vwrw]

This reminded me of an interesting period in Russian history. When Tsar Peter the Great returned from his tour of Europe in 1698 he decided that his courtiers will all become Western. So the nobels were ordered to shave off their beards, learn French, dress, eat and behave like Western (more specifically French) men.
Peter personally adapted a German manual that give detailed guidance to his subjects as how they should behave.
Interestingly Peter did not want them to become Western, but to act Western! as he writes in the manual: 'The Russian nobleman is to imagine himself in the company of foreigners while, at the same time, remaining conscious of himself as a Russian. The point was not to become a European, but rather to act as one. Like an actor with an eye to his own image on the stage,the nobleman was told to observe his own behaviour from a Russian point of view. It was the only way to judge foreignness.'
So the Russians were asked to act as Europeans in Russia and vwrw wants to act as an American in America (from Russia).

Anyway the point is that the immigrants relationship to his/her new country is like a persons relationship to his/her spouse. It is optional, one chooses to live with this certain person like one chooses to live in this new country.One can decide to leave the partner just like one can decide to move to another country. While the relation to you country of birth and where you have spent your formative years is like with your parents. You have no option to chose this/them, you can leave but you cannot change it.
I think she will feel better if she keeps close ties with her Russianess, afterall that is what marks her individual style when she moves to America.  

 

Mir and Bruce, thank you for advices.
Mir, you made a very interesting post and I would like to start a new thread discussing how much it is important for an immigrant to love her new country at least a half as strong as she loves her fiancee to make her integration in new culture easy. It could be also interesting if married men tell us with what attitudes regarding their new country their wives arrived and how their attitudes have been changing during your marriage…in general it could be interesting and enlightening to discuss on subject “The relationship between your wife (from FSU) and her new country. BUT beginning from today and a week long I will be very busy to conduct a thread. Maybe someone will open the thread?     

[Blues Fairy]

As to our discussion regarding fsuw having a more casual outlook toward adultery, how much does America's Puritanical ties effect the difference in perception?

Good point.  I once read an interesting article explaining the difference between American and European attitudes to cheating:

French Men Don't Get Caught
In America, a lapse in monogamy ruins marriages, bankrupts couples, and condemns families to divorce-court hell. In Europe and elsewhere, infidelity is considered a bump in the road, if it's considered at all. <b><a href="http://men.msn.com/articlebl.aspx?cp-documentid=4096355">Here's why</a></b>.

Perhaps having less guilt in one's life is actually a healthy thing. 

[Misha]

I'd say that psychologist acted unprofessionally by publicly asserting the point that is arguable and individual-specific at least.

I will try to explain what he or she may have to mean.

If a couple share an apartment with an extended family, it may be assumed that the sexual life of this couple occurs in total lack of intimacy. Like they are supposed to make love on their bed while their parents in law are actually sleeping at the couch only a few steps away, often separated by a wardrobe or something, so every movement can be heard by either couple. Therefore the couples may want to avoid making love at home and look for some place outside home.

Here is a definite lost of logics in observation. Logically, the couple may want to look for place to make love together. The advisor however says that they often do it separately.  Porbably her way of thinking was that as soon as they are promtped to make love outside home, they may also choose to make it outside their marriage.. No logics, agree with you.

Thanks Lily! The logic would be then: "I have to pay for a hotel to have decent sex without the in-laws listening in, and damned if I will pay for a hotel to have sex with my wife, so I will get myself a mistress and have sex with her in a hotel away from the wife and the in-laws...."

[KenC]

Blues Fairy,
At the French president's funeral, his wife, family and mistress were present without a flutter of concern.  Here in America we almost impeached our president for getting a BJ in passing from an intern.

Kind of puts things in perspective.
KenC

[BillyB]

Perhaps having less guilt in one's life is actually a healthy thing. 

Is there a study out there to show if rapists, cheaters, thieves, and murderers live longer because they feel no guilt for their wrongdoings? Certainly their actions of wrong puts added stress on their victims. If they were the type of people to feel guilt, they would probably not do wrong to others as much as they're doing now. The question should be "Is it healthier  to live with or without a conscience?" I feel more healthy and good about myself that I'm faithful to my fiancee instead of cheating on her.

[Mir]

Is there a study out there to show if rapists, cheaters, thieves, and murderers live longer because they feel no guilt for their wrongdoings?

Who says that criminals don't feel guilt for their deeds?
Majority of criminals do feel the guilt, the ones who are guilt free are the so called 'True Psychopaths' and such people are mercifully few in number.
The majority of crimes are committed by petty criminals of low intelligence while a universal trait of a true psychopath is that they have high intelligence. In fact their cunning and intelligence makes them hard to catch and often quite successful in life (hmmm are many alpha-males psychopaths?).
However their life expectancies would be shortended by the time they would have to spend in jail (or by electric chair for some), still those who never get caught might live longer due to their guilt free life, but we won't know who they were, would we?.......

[Mir]

I feel more healthy and good about myself that I'm faithful to my fiancee instead of cheating on her.

Is that you assumption or are you talking from experience?

[Blues Fairy]

Is there a study out there to show if rapists, cheaters, thieves, and murderers live longer because they feel no guilt for their wrongdoings?

Are you seriously putting extramarital affairs and rape/murder in one queue?   

That's puritanism for you people.

[BillyB]

 Here in America we almost impeached our president for getting a BJ in passing from an intern.

It wasn't so much the issue he got a blow job, it's that he disgraced his position as President. It was a good thing that he nearly got impeached. This event is an example for all future Presidents to set an example, not be the example. It also will prevent more people, with skeletons in their closet, from running for the Presidency knowing full well most everything will come out. If his wife can't trust him, why should I? What may be good for the French president and their people pertaining to getting a BJ other than one's wife may not be good enough for here. I like it that way. Unfortunately people did vote for him knowing full well of his many previous infidelities.

Mir, many Russian men and women do not feel guilt when cheating on their partner and will not stop, do we label them as "True Psychopaths" or classify their behavior as normal?

And I do talk from experience on being faithful to my fiancee. How can I not be? I'm on this forum seven days a week.

 Are you seriously putting extramarital affairs and rape/murder in one queue?

Why do RW almost always answer a question with a question? BF You know better but I'll say it anyway. There are different degrees of wrong but wrong is wrong..... that is of course someone thinks it's okay to rape, murder, and commit adultry. If you feel adultry is not wrong but normal behavior of men, then say so that it should not be classified as a wrong.

[catzenmouse]

May as well throw Jaywalkers, Litterers, Loiterers, and such in there as well using that logic.

Just a thought

[Blues Fairy]

If you feel adultry is not wrong but normal behavior of men, then say so that it should not be classified as a wrong.

It is wrong but then so is farting in public.  Do you castigate yourself for being human, because it is so WRONG?  Or simply try to avoid such behavior, realizing that it might disturb other people?

[Simoni]

Mama Mia!

[BC]

Why do RW almost always answer a question with a question?

For the same reasons a psychologist does.

BF You know better but I'll say it anyway. There are different degrees of wrong but wrong is wrong..... that is of course someone thinks it's okay to rape, murder, and commit adultry. If you feel adultry is not wrong but normal behavior of men, then say so that it should not be classified as a wrong.

I guess 'wrongness' is relative to whatever standards being used to judge.

In a truly secular state or nation, there would likely be no laws against adultery..  Where did the concept of adultery originate?

Ever ask why there are speed limits on highways and cops with radar?.. because it is quite natural to drive as fast as you feel comfortable with.

The fact that the term 'Adultery' exists in a controlling context seems to evidence that societal, cultural or religious rules are set in an attempt to curb otherwise natural desires or tendencies.

[jen]

Who is Jen?

Just to answer the question...  see
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5289.0

and the Projects section...

Take care all, interesting thread,
J.

[ScottinCrimea]

It is wrong but then so is farting in public.  Do you castigate yourself for being human, because it is so WRONG?  Or simply try to avoid such behavior, realizing that it might disturb other people?

So committing adultery can be written off as just being human?  Is this the definitive word on the Russian attitude toward infidelity?

I guess this means that I'm not of the human race.  I need to have a long talk with my mother.

[Simoni]

So committing adultery can be written off as just being human?  Is this the definitive word on the Russian attitude toward infidelity?

I guess this means that I'm not of the human race.  I need to have a long talk with my mother.

LOL, Scott.   That's why all I could say was a shocked "Mama Mia!"   

I'll be talking to my mom too.

[Mir]

Mir, many Russian men and women do not feel guilt when cheating on their partner and will not stop, do we label them as "True Psychopaths" or classify their behavior as normal?

And how do you know they don't feel any guilt? Or how do you know how many feel/don't feel guilt. Is it 90% who don't feel guilt or is it 80%? or 70% or 60%? The fact is you don't know, no one does.

Yes by definition anyone who does something that is wrong and does not feel guilt about it is a 'psychopath'

I have no data to prove it but I personally feel all successful and prolific adulterers are psychopaths with the intelligence, charm and ability to do it, get away with it and not get caught for many people who do wrong get caught because of stupidity (hence low intelligence) or guilty behaviour, not the traits of psychopaths.

[Misha]

In a truly secular state or nation, there would likely be no laws against adultery..  Where did the concept of adultery originate?

Ever ask why there are speed limits on highways and cops with radar?.. because it is quite natural to drive as fast as you feel comfortable with.

The fact that the term 'Adultery' exists in a controlling context seems to evidence that societal, cultural or religious rules are set in an attempt to curb otherwise natural desires or tendencies.

In our society paternity matters and if your wife is having sex with other men then there is a chance that if she gets pregnant the baby won't be yours. Look at Shakespeare: to be cuckolded was derogatory. It meant that your wife was having an affair and you were too stupid to know or do anything about it. Word is derived from the cuckoo that lays its eggs in another birds nest and fools them into raising its young that will kill the legitimate progeny of the other bird. To be cuckolded meant that that another man was laying eggs in your nest and you were stupid enough that you would raise someone else's chick.

Of course, in societies where paternity does not matter, then adultery is less of an issue. It is a question of biology: it is hard for a woman not to know that she is pregnant and that a baby is coming out of her. Cases of children being swapped at birth are a lot less common than a father thinking the baby is his when it is not :-) Now there is DNA testing, in the past it was harder to know for sure unless you could be guaranteed that you were the only one who was having sex with the woman.

Look at daytime television and you see the same theme: let's do some DNA testing to see if the baby is really yours. It usually ends in tears and a lot of profanity being bleeped out.

Even if children are not an issue, then there is always jealousy that comes into play. What if she finds someone better? What if he lovers her more or gives her more attention?

Then there are the economic reasons. What if he dumps me for her and I lose everything? What if she dumps me for that hottie and I am stuck paying alimony?

Between questions of paternity, questions of jealousy and plain old economic reasons, there are many reasons why many societies frown upon adultery.

[ScottinCrimea]

Don't leave the sociopaths out of the argument

[BC]

In our society paternity matters and if your wife is having sex with other men then there is a chance that if she gets pregnant the baby won't be yours. Look at Shakespeare: to be cuckolded was derogatory. It meant that your wife was having an affair and you were too stupid to know or do anything about it. Word is derived from the cuckoo that lays its eggs in another birds nest and fools them into raising its young that will kill the legitimate progeny of the other bird. To be cuckolded meant that that another man was laying eggs in your nest and you were stupid enough that you would raise someone else's chick.

Of course, in societies where paternity does not matter, then adultery is less of an issue. It is a question of biology: it is hard for a woman not to know that she is pregnant and that a baby is coming out of her. Cases of children being swapped at birth are a lot less common than a father thinking the baby is his when it is not :-) Now there is DNA testing, in the past it was harder to know for sure unless you could be guaranteed that you were the only one who was having sex with the woman.

Look at daytime television and you see the same theme: let's do some DNA testing to see if the baby is really yours. It usually ends in tears and a lot of profanity being bleeped out.

Even if children are not an issue, then there is always jealousy that comes into play. What if she finds someone better? What if he lovers her more or gives her more attention?

Then there are the economic reasons. What if he dumps me for her and I lose everything? What if she dumps me for that hottie and I am stuck paying alimony?

Between questions of paternity, questions of jealousy and plain old economic reasons, there are many reasons why many societies frown upon adultery.

With chances around 1 in 25 that the child is not mine I am not going to run and do DNA testing.  It's probably much better for all concerned. If the relationship holds, regardless of circumstances, why risk destruction?  It's the relationship that makes a marriage count and not very wee bits of genetic material.

If paternity really mattered to society wouldn't adoption be frowned upon?

[Mir]

Between questions of paternity, questions of jealousy and plain old economic reasons, there are many reasons why many societies frown upon adultery.

So why (as some here claim) is society in FSU is more tolerant of adultery then the US of A?