Character Problems with RM and RW

[BillyB]

It is wrong but then so is farting in public.  Do you castigate yourself for being human, because it is so WRONG?  Or simply try to avoid such behavior, realizing that it might disturb other people?

Again, more questions to answer my question. I've already told you there are different degrees of wrong. Is a RM who commits adultry doing wrong in your opinion or is it normal or even acceptable behavior?

I've probably been pulled over by police 8 times in my life. I've gotten out of tickets 4 times because I never make excuses, except for my first time. I admitted to the cop I did wrong and was speeding. I did not dispute or debate as some is doing with me. Two times when I did get a ticket, the cop apologized to me and told me he's just doing his job. Speeding is not murder but according to the laws of society, it is wrong. No debating, no excuses.

Mir, it is a fact people who commit crime will likely commit again. Sitting in jail and paying their debt to society is not an apology from their heart. If someone commits a crime and they sincerely feel guilt, they would voluntarily turn themself in to the police. How many times does that happen? I work in construction and there are a lot of people here who will never be the finest citizens. They know how to behave but they choose not to. When someone repeats bad behavior, most likely they do not feel guilt for their previous bad behavior. If you feel guilty about doing something, chances are you will not do it again and voluntarily pay your debt. Debt could be returning stolen goods or turning yourself in for punishment.

One reason adultry is wrong is because it breaks a promise one makes with their spouse at marriage. Another reason is because it's incredibly selfish. Also and adultrous person is reckless in that he may bring disease into his family or future unborn children. In some ways, adultry can kill.

Whether or not you feel adutry is a crime, serious betrayal or normal behavior. it's probably best you marry a person with the same line of thinking so nobody gets hurt.

So why (as some here claim) is society in FSU is more tolerant of adultery then the US of A?

Two reasons I can think of. One is because adultry was considered criminal in America although lately it seems it's being decrimilized. And two, stronger religious faiths that teach against adultry here. Don't we have more puritans in the USA than in the FSU? Don't need to take a poll for that.

[Simoni]

Whether or not you feel adutry is a crime, serious betrayal or normal behavior. it's probably best you marry a person with the same line of thinking so nobody gets hurt.

Very well put, BillyB.

[Misha]

With chances around 1 in 25 that the child is not mine I am not going to run and do DNA testing.  It's probably much better for all concerned. If the relationship holds, regardless of circumstances, why risk destruction?  It's the relationship that makes a marriage count and not very wee bits of genetic material.

If paternity really mattered to society wouldn't adoption be frowned upon?

If paternity (and maternity) did not truly matter, why would people spend thousand upon thousands of dollars for in vitro fertilization, surrogate mothers and countless other methods to have "their child" when these couples could could go out and adopt? I would say that adoption is still seen by most in our society as a method of last resort when all other means fail. 

[jb]

Here in America we almost impeached our president for getting a BJ in passing from an intern.

It wasn't so much the issue he got a blow job, it's that he disgraced his position as President. It was a good thing that he nearly got impeached. This event is an example for all future Presidents to set an example, not be the example. It also will prevent more people, with skeletons in their closet, from running for the Presidency knowing full well most everything will come out. If his wife can't trust him, why should I? What may be good for the French president and their people pertaining to getting a BJ other than one's wife may not be good enough for here. I like it that way. Unfortunately people did vote for him knowing full well of his many previous infidelities.

I'm sorry to say, both comments are wrong.   Bill Clinton was *almost* impeached for knowingly making a false statement, (actually several), before congress while under oath.  That he got some BJs from the Lewinsky girl in the Oval Office cloak room was never the issue, it was the lie while under oath that did him in.  I'm always amazed at how few Americans understood this not too subtle fact.   Fortunately for him there were enough other liars in congress to prevent him from being drummed out of office.

"Twas a bad and dark day for America when he was allowed to walk.  However, since it takes a 2/3's majority in the Senate to pass a Bill of Impeachment, he was never in any danger of being impeached, and he knew it.  The left wing loonies would have never let that happen to their darling Bill.

[SANDRO43]

In a truly secular state or nation, there would likely be no laws against adultery..  Where did the concept of adultery originate?

Probably when humanity moved from roving bands of hunter-gatherers, and the overall welfare of the clan (and their leader's ) was paramount, to larger, settled communities where personal property became increasingly important, say around 10,000 BC.

And you BC, of all people, should know that .

[Blues Fairy]

So committing adultery can be written off as just being human?  Is this the definitive word on the Russian attitude toward infidelity?

And who says it has to be "written off"? Are you only able to think in absolute categories? 

No, I don't believe that adultery is a deadly sin for which one will forever burn in hell, in fact I don't believe in hell at all.  I do, however, believe in making a conscious effort not to hurt other people, especially loved ones.  That's the only measure of right and wrong as far as I'm concerned. Maybe other Russians will disagree.

[Simoni]

Yes, I don't believe that adultery ...

Hmmm... I'm one of those who suspected you were a troll in your first few posts. Why? Because of your realistic English writing style.

But now, with this comment, something slipped through..  The "Yes" when you should have written "No."

My wife, who is fluent in English, does this too...  both in writing and by shaking her head yes (up and down) instead of side to side (no).

[softy]

i can say that i know many russian men who haven't cheated their wives, girlfriends ever... i think everything depends on person not on nation... and we can find very many examples as good as bad in any country and inany time.
and... for me adultery is sin but how can i judge someone if i don't know her/his situation exactly. 

[BillyB]

And who says it has to be "written off"? Are you only able to think in absolute categories? 

No, I don't believe that adultery is a deadly sin for which one will forever burn in hell,

Adultry is not a deadly sin but it is a result of one called lust. Rape is also a result of lust. Nobody is perfect and although I won't commit adultry, I can fall victim to lust to some degree. Maybe a wife can't satify her husband's lust completely. The husband may do nothing, or he may think of another woman, he may buy a pornographic magazine, he may hire a prostitute, find a mistress, or rape another woman to satisfy his lust. Certainly some or all of these actions by men to satisfy his lust aren't desirable to the women in their lives.

Here are the seven deadly sins and the seven holy virtues. One does not need to be religious to consider using the sins and virtues when measuring their future partner.

Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride are the sins and the holy virtues, which are opposites of the sins are chastity, abstinence, temperance, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility.

[Mir]

If someone commits a crime and they sincerely feel guilt, they would voluntarily turn themself in to the police. How many times does that happen?

Yes Billy you are making all the right arguments but you are saying how it should be, and I agree that is the way it should be if we lived in an ideal world, alas we don't.
I think your argument that everyone who feels the guilt should admit it is rather simplistic.
In real life many people don't even admit they feel any guilt, yet they do suffer from it, often with other mental anguishes, the only ones blessed not to feel anything are the psychos.

Billy can you honestly say that you have never lied in your life? Not even a tiny, Innocent, harmless lie?

[BillyB]

Billy can you honestly say that you have never lied in your life? Not even a tiny, Innocent, harmless lie?

I have never lied in my life. Whoops, I just did it again.

Mir everybody has problems but see above the holy vitues and dealy sins. We need to ask ourselves which way we want to lean? I do have a faith in God. If I didn't, I'm sure I will choose the path that satisfies me most and I might end up stepping on others achieve selfish goals.

[Blues Fairy]

Adultry is not a deadly sin but it is a result of one called lust. Rape is also a result of lust. Nobody is perfect and although I won't commit adultry, I can fall victim to lust to some degree. Maybe a wife can't satify her husband's lust completely.

And why should she satisfy his lust if it's a deadly sin?  And why can't she divorce him if he buys porn, for that same reason?
Billy see absolute categories are supposed to be adhered to at all times, otherwise they are not absolute by definition.

And rape is rarely driven by lust; rather, by the desire to dominate and subdue.  That's a different deadly sin, I suppose.

[Mir]

I've probably been pulled over by police 8 times in my life. I've gotten out of tickets 4 times because I never make excuses, except for my first time. I admitted to the cop I did wrong and was speeding. I did not dispute or debate as some is doing with me. Two times when I did get a ticket, the cop apologized to me and told me he's just doing his job. Speeding is not murder but according to the laws of society, it is wrong. No debating, no excuses.

To obey the laws of society does not mean the one should accept one's guilt when one has done wrong, this is called honesty. To obey the laws of society means that one should not break the law.
You know that the punishment for speeding is just a ticket and some fine which you can easily afford, so you have a few times broken the law and paid the punitive fine. If the punishment was 2 years in jail you will be much less likely to break this law and will have much more incentive to lie and save yourself if you have such a chance.
Humans give rather self fulfilling examples to prove their moral superiority, a man in no position to get a bribe will claim that he is honest by claiming he does not take a bribe.
Human society is complex, it is not black and white, there is a lot of grey.

Yes no doubt Clinton was in trouble as he lied under oath, just telling a lie would not have been a problem as we have seen with Bush and WMD, as they say:'How to you know when a politician is lying?' Answer: 'His lips move'

[Mir]

The "Yes" when you should have written "No."

Simoni

She wrote 'No' and not 'Yes' ???

[ScottinCrimea]

Simoni

She wrote 'No' and not 'Yes' ???

It was "yes" before.  Obviously she went back and edited it.

[BillyB]

And rape is rarely driven by lust; rather, by the desire to dominate and subdue.  That's a different deadly sin, I suppose.

You've been reading too many feminist articles.   Although a man wants to dominate, subue, and take what he wishes from a woman, he still needs to release his manly hormones in a sexual way and thay is related to lust. It's not all about power but taking care of selfish needs. Maybe if a rapist wasn't poor, ugly and had a great personality, he could take care of his needs like many wealthy RM do with a willing mistress instead of physical force.

Mir, you're missing the point about why I told police/ticket story. You also missed this thread where WMD's were found.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5887.0

[Mir]

Aha I get it now, Saddam had hidden WMD in RWD, how clever, thanks for enlightening me Billy

[SANDRO43]

I do have a faith in God. If I didn't, I'm sure I will choose the path that satisfies me most and I might end up stepping on others achieve selfish goals.

Do you mean that you believe ALL free-thinkers, non-believers, agnostics, atheists, etc. to be fiendish scoundrels, or just that YOU would be the latter if you were one ?

[Gator]

MY THOUGHTS ON ADULTERY

Adultery does no good and usually creates problems.

Answer me please:  how many of you would accept your wife sucking another man's penis?   Or your husband telling another woman that she is most beautiful and buying her expensive presents and not wanting to make love with you?

A person has only so much emotion, and to give some of his/her emotion to someone outside the family deprives the family of that emotional energy.  I do not understand how a wife, especially in Russia, would tolerate a husband spending some of his limited money on another.

Any adultery is discoverable.  Who knows how your life partner will react.  They may eventually forgive but will never forget.  Why risk ending your relationship for something shallow that probably has no long-term prospect?

There is also the issue of disease.

When a man/woman is in love, they do not think about others.  It is better to fix the problems in your relationship that entertain thoughts of others.  If the problems can not be fixed, then meet others and end your relationship peacefully.

This is puritanical?

[Gator]

BILL CLINTON

JB is totally correct about Bill Clinton. 

Bill Clinton committed perjury by lying to a special investigator about the BJ,  and he obstructed justice trying to convince Monica to lie as well.  Both are impeachable offenses.  However, there were not enough democrats to join the republicans to get the required two-thirds vote. 

The trial got into the definition of sex and the meaning of “the”, and clever Willie talked his way out of it.  He was censured by the House of Representatives.  There was even a private fund to pay his legal fees.  And Hillary supported him there and in many similar cases. 

[Gator]

A FEW QUOTES ON RAPE

Traditional gender roles prescribing female submission and male dominance are linked to rape ...

Current information indicates that rape is more a learned act of sexual violence that comes out of social beliefs that men have a right to dominate and control women...…

Gender role socialization, however, do not explain why most men do not rape, why some women rape men, or why rape occurs in gay and lesbian relationships in which both people have experienced similar gender role socialization. 

Individual differences are also important.

Men who rape tend to believe more strongly in myths about rape, and they are more likely to engage in fantasies about coercive sex.  Compared with other men, rapists drink more heavily, begin having sexual experiences earlier, and are more likely to have been physically or sexually abused as children

[SANDRO43]

I do not understand how a wife, especially in Russia, would tolerate a husband spending some of his limited money on another.

Possibly because she cannot get most of that from a Russian divorce settlement (i.e. put up or shut up) ?

[BillyB]

Do you mean that you believe ALL free-thinkers, non-believers, agnostics, atheists, etc. to be fiendish scoundrels, or just that YOU would be the latter if you were one ?

I would be the latter. Without religion, I would change my views pertaining to the RM and RW who commit adultery and even be compasionate to their view of accepting this behavior. If this is the only life to live with no consequences of one's actions, then why not fulfill all your wishes and achieve all pleasures of life as long as it's within man's law? Gator, maybe lack of religion partially explains the lackadaisical view pertaining to adultery in the FSU. Most of my views against adultery were created by my faith, certainly not by man's law.

If there is no God and no sin and it's not against the law in Russia, so what if a RM commits adultery? So what if he gets divorced? He just goes on to the next younger model anyway in which upgrades his life by his own measuring stick and living life to it's fullest satisfying the natural desire his hormones are creating. Who's right is it to tell him he's wrong? RM really aren't doing anything wrong based on his society's measuring stick either. Man can create his own code of morals and ethics but he could never be the authority/expert as man has faults and could never be perfect. I don't want to turn this thread into about me or turn it religious but I will say I do believe when people have a belief in God, it makes the world a better place.  Does anybody think it does a nation or the World good taking away people's freedom of religion? Don't answer, I already know some of you do feel that way.

[Zadan]

IMHO, it only takes empathy to do the 'right thing'.  I only have to conduct a simple thought experiment to decide not to cheat, by asking myself: "how would she feel if she knew I did X"? Her pain becomes my pain (since I love her), and X is out the window.

Now, if being unfaithful doesn't bother her--that's an entirely different set of problems, and a kind of person I should think I wouldn't want to be with anyway.

(Looks like we've got politics and religion all in one thread now. Certainly a path to fruitful discussion. )

[ScottinCrimea]

What I don't understand is why they call it adultery when there is nothing "adult" about this type of behavior.  :noidea: