Character Problems with RM and RW

[Gator]

In a "Introductions" thread, three of our wise RW posters made very substantive comments about the character of RW and RM.  To me, the information was important and interesting, and easily could be lost amid the issue of whether it is okay to wear jeans.

So I will repeat their opinions here and ask a couple of questions.

VWRW wrote,

After one year of reading this forum I came to the following conclusion - most of FSU women a foreigner will meet in his pursuit will be empty, brutal, impolite, rude, offensive, vulgar, boorish, and heartless…The qualities listed above are NOT common among FSU women

In my 5+ years of going to the FSU, I have “dated” around 15 RW (my definition of a “date” is spending at least eight hours together for more than one day).  Such is enough time to learn something about a woman’s character.    No RW had the dark qualities that you listed.  So I agree with you that these dark qualities “…are NOT common to FSU women.” 

This, however, makes me question your conclusion that these are the qualities of the typical women who foreigners meet.   Could it be that in some if not many cases the RW simply did not like the foreigner, and his description of the meeting paints her black, when she easily could be a sweetheart for a man of her liking?

I ask because I have enjoyed excellent relationships with RW and find them very endearing.  Perhaps I differ because almost all of the women I dated were in their 30s and early 40s and single moms, not the typical women pursued by foreigners. 

[Gator]

Lilly wrote,

Not the poverty as such is a defect, but the sad impact it can make on the personality.…Poverty makes people unsecure, undecisive, desperate, sometimes even envious to other.

Many FSUW lead a deprived life, but not abject poverty where hunger is an issue.  The single moms have impressed me with their resourcefulness and determination and particularly their pride. 

Unsecure?  I agree that this makes them insecure to the point that stability is important to them, not just in regard to income but relationships, opportunities, etc. 

Undecisive?  Compared to AW, RW are very decisive; they will not dwell on an major issue for long and easily move on once they make a decision, refusing to revisit it.   I will agree that AW will spend money more decisively because they have more discretionary money.  A RW must be very careful with her limited amounts. 

Desperate?  I have seen this in a few RW.  It is sad and made me move on to someone who had more pride. 

Envious?  I have seen this a lot.   I suppose if I had led a deprived life I would feel the same and would be more into selfishness and conspicuous consumption.

I have seen some RW measure a man's devotion in part by what he spends on her.  Some RW are happy with the smallest present.  Others expect more knowing that a Western man has more to spend.  Is this a character flaw deriving from years of poverty?  Or is this Russian culture?   

Do you feel that this poverty-induced character will carry forward into marriage with a Western man?  I read many stories of American husbands being impressed by the frugality of their wives.  [This is perhaps better asked to the married men]. 

My fiancee is not very thrifty, but understands and appreciates the concept of having a budget including savings.  Some other RW I met seemed to have no concept for a budget.  Their position, if you have money, you spend it until it is gone.  Then the man is suppose to make more money.

[William3rd]

"After one year of reading this forum I came to the following conclusion - most of FSU women a foreigner will meet in his pursuit will be empty, brutal, impolite, rude, offensive, vulgar, boorish, and heartless…The qualities listed above are NOT common among FSU women"

But it may say alot about the women that are out there to be encountered, if indeed true. I never saw very many of them in that way. In the days of yesteryear, the women wore their personalities on their sleeves-gold diggers acted like IRS auditors, etc.

HOWEVER, many of the romance tour clients that I saw after about early 2003 were EXACTLY that way. THUS, it might be equally true to say that most of the FOREIGN men that FSU women would encounter are "empty, brutal, impolite, rude, offensive, vulgar, boorish, and heartless."

[Gator]

Blues Fairy wrote,

…the #1 problem of Russian guys…More like, their upbringing.  A few generations of men brought up by authoritative single moms, or women wearing the pants in the family.  Pervasive childishness and selfishness and irresponsibility.

RM do like to play, particularly with women.  Regarding irresponsibility, frequently I heard from RW that when economic conditions became difficult, many men did abandon their wife and child.  I suppose not having a father enabled them to think it was acceptable.  

But as Turbo asked, how has the lack of a father affected RW?  

I have noticed, as expected, that the most well-adjusted RW typically were those who came from happy families.  Yet I became drawn to a RW raised by her grandmother (an orphan with living parents) who has always thought that the richest people are those with a mother and father.  

The cycle repeated itself because her husband abandoned her and their children.  Yet she has striven to give her children everything, especially love.  Everything that she missed when growing up as a child.  The three of them are very close and she is totally dedicated to them.

And by the way, I have observed in my travels many happy, young Russian families.  The father was spending time with his child and seemed to love it.  So what is the norm, a good family man or a cheating, irresponsible husband?  Surely it is the former.

Blues Fairy, you do not seem alone in your opinion , because many of the RW I dated said that they do not date RM.  Yet, they are good looking women and would make an excellent wife (except for already having a child and many RM are portrayed as intolerant of other men's children).

[Gator]

William3rd,

Good point about the quality of foreign men.  Many RW I met described some bad characteristics in the foreign men they met.  I asked them why they continue to meet AM, and their answers varied, but mostly centered around hope and a reluctance to renew with RM.

[William3rd]

Gator- I heard the same from many RW that I encountered as well.

Folks should keep in mind that there are large numbers-the large majority, in fact- of women abroad that have no intentions of looking at foreign men. It is a HUGE step to look overseas, for whatever reason.

[WmGO]

I think that most of the AM that many FSUW meet are perhaps actually more socially inept and/or weak and/or silly and/or culturally clueless than they are rude/boorish/heartless, etc.  

I also think that VWRW makes a valid point (in another thread) that in terms
of percentages, most of the best FSUW are already married to FSUM and hence,
most of the ones that make make themselves available on agency sites to WM are not the best FSUW out there. I agree with this assesment. I also think Serebro alluded to this viewpoint in another thread.

[Gator]

WmGO,

Gee whiz!  You make it seem like "losers" marrying "rejects".  What does that say for us and the women we love!?

[WmGO]

WmGO,

Gee whiz!  You make it seem like "losers" marrying "rejects".  What does that say for us and the women we love!?

Gator,

Please note I didn't say "all"!!!      I was careful to just say "most".   

What do you expect on a threadline that ultimately is all about the
infamous *generalization*??!    LOL!

[jen]

Hi all,

Just dropping in, as I've been trying to do for a while but have been swamped with other work.

This is a really interesting thread -- especially since there are so many more discussions here that talk about the general idea that the men who go to the FSU for mates and the women who are seeking WM there have good intentions, good reasons for doing so, are sincere and good people, etc.

I certainly talked with women who were friends of mine in St. Petersburg who did not have good opinions of the industry:  some of them said it was clear that the men were doing it for live-in domestic/sex workers, and the women were doing it for a better life/visa/money. Exactly the kind of stereotypes you hear from the U.S. side, as well. Of course, no one I talked with who was actually pursuing a foreign spouse acknowledged such motivations as primary.  Of course, they could be just representing themselves positively. But I believe that most of them were sincere.

I wonder if this suggests that in both countries, even the men and women who do pursue international romance are vulnerable to the same stereotypes?  That they believe their own intentions are good, but figure that most other people are doing it for the wrong reasons? Or do you have lots of direct experiences (as I guess WmGo would) with men or women of questionable character? (Don't worry, I'm not going to record this as fact as you say yes, I'm just curious to know your experiences/opinions about the "mainstream" of men or women who pursue international dating, especially through agencies.)

Looking forward to catching up more,
Jen

[William3rd]

Yep- given the low low low success rates, there is a lot of loser meets reject. The cream floats to the top over the long term.

"I wonder if this suggests that in both countries, even the men and women who do pursue international romance are vulnerable to the same stereotypes?  That they believe their own intentions are good, but figure that most other people are doing it for the wrong reasons? Or do you have lots of direct experiences (as I guess WmGo would) with men or women of questionable character? (Don't worry, I'm not going to record this as fact as you say yes, I'm just curious to know your experiences/opinions about the "mainstream" of men or women who pursue international dating, especially through agencies.)"

Jen, I believe that, in their heart of hearts, the participants know whether they are  searching for the right reasons, or the wrong ones, from the first day that they declare themselves to be "in the hunt."

Unless, of course, they are so totally lost emotionally that they deceive themselves. The subsequent actions tell far more about their intentions or makeup than their express intentions while in the hunt.

[KenC]

WmGO,

Gee whiz!  You make it seem like "losers" marrying "rejects".  What does that say for us and the women we love!?

Gator,
I think that WmGO makes a valid point when consdiering his wording of "most" but not "all."  But is this changing now?  I see more mainstream men here joining the pursuit and I also get a sense that the women in the fsu find the option of finding a foreign man more acceptable than before.

I believe that in years passed, that the majority of the men and women involved in this process were desperate in nature with a few winners thinking "outside the box."  But today it is not as unusual or "off the wall" and therefore attracts more of the mainstream players (both women and men)
KenC

[timothe]

Do you think it matters how you meet them?  I've never met a woman through an agency, but I'd imagine some of the 9s and 10s from the agencies have met so many men that they've likely become jaded.  Either that, or these women are really beautiful on the outside and really ugly on the inside.

In my previous trips to Russia, I was never treated in any way short of rock star status, whether it was a woman I was dating or someone I met on the bus.  (I'm talking about the men and the women.)

[Misha]

Yep- given the low low low success rates, there is a lot of loser meets reject. The cream floats to the top over the long term.

"I wonder if this suggests that in both countries, even the men and women who do pursue international romance are vulnerable to the same stereotypes?  That they believe their own intentions are good, but figure that most other people are doing it for the wrong reasons? Or do you have lots of direct experiences (as I guess WmGo would) with men or women of questionable character? (Don't worry, I'm not going to record this as fact as you say yes, I'm just curious to know your experiences/opinions about the "mainstream" of men or women who pursue international dating, especially through agencies.)"

Jen, I believe that, in their heart of hearts, the participants know whether they are  searching for the right reasons, or the wrong ones, from the first day that they declare themselves to be "in the hunt."

Unless, of course, they are so totally lost emotionally that they deceive themselves. The subsequent actions tell far more about their intentions or makeup than their express intentions while in the hunt.

One of the changes that I have seen in the last 10 years is the talk of the "sex slave." My wife was asked by her co-workers whether she worried that she might be sold into the sex trade when arriving in Canada. Also, the concept of the "sex tourist" is pretty widespread in Russia.

[William3rd]

I remember on several occasions over the years hearing guys from the "socials" bragging the next day on how they had bedded one of the new girls with the old love at first sight routine and the inevitabiity of their fated marriage. 

The concept of sex tourists follows most of the tour agencies- like cream in coffee or stink on s. . . .

[vwrw]

From I/O: Consider this, how would you go if a nice Russian lady said to you, "I like you, you are a good man but I don't like your face, it is ugly face"? Get the point? That may end up being your wife who says something like that to you. They can be that direct. She may love you to bits and still tell you about the things she doesn't like.
If you are to have any chance of success in Russia, you'd better grow a thick skin real quick. Most of the guys here are simply trying to clue you in for how it is. Hold my hand and take a walk down reality street, I have two grown Russian women living in my house right now and believe me, the conversations get rather .....errrr direct at times.

From Rvrwind: You will need a much thicker skin than that to deal with a Russian Woman, believe it. 

From KenC: Sorry for RWD getting off on the wrong foot with you.  Some of the advice here is doled out in an "in your face" or blunt way.  A big reason for that IMO is because so many of us are used to dealing with very blunt RW.  It would be nothing for a RW to ask "why are you so fat?" if you were overweight by example.  If bluntness is something you cannot handle, it may be best that you not pursue a RW.

From Kuna: If you were offended by the comments in here enough to depart RWD FSU is not for you.





vwrw: these are just comments from one thread. I do not know how in your America but in Russia to say a good man he has an ugly face; alternatively, to ask somebody "why are you so fat?" is an impolite, rude, offensive, boorish behavior and that is heartless because such a words may hurt other person.
The person who often offends/ insults/ hurts others so that the other people need a much thicker skin to deal with the person…is brutal, impolite, rude, offensive, vulgar, boorish, and heartless.

To call such a nasty behavior of any woman as being direct/blunt…is the same as to call a police of mass murder as “ethnic cleansing”.
Looking at the factual content of the quotes above I personally see very unpleasant realities.

I categorically disagree that most of RW (I have met in Russia) are such blunt people that surrounding people need a much thicker skin to deal with them.
I would be ashamed if women who “represent” Russia abroad are such direct/blunt as the men say above.

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with VWRW.   I do think Russians are a little more direct than Americans but I have not found them to be hurtful or rude (maybe rude cutting in lines but not conversation).  I don't think most Russians would go up to someone and say you are fat or you are ugly or for that matter you look like a slug.  Sorry to ruffle any feathers but I see much more rudeness here among a very few people than I ever have in an Russians I have met. 

I do think the Russian language can lend itself to being interpreted as rude when someone is knowledgeable but not fully fluent.   I am talking about the lack of articles.   If a stranger walked up to you and said, "I vant vater now" that might be interpreted as much more rude than an American coming up to you and saying "Could I have a glass of water?"

Another comment I will make and this is based on a very limited sampling.  I have met a few women with teen aged daughters.  The teen girls I have met struck me as being spoiled prima donnas that could make life pretty miserable for a few years if they were to become part of a guys family.   I have also met a few women with teen aged sons who seemed very well adjusted and like they would almost be your best buddy if you ended up with them as part of your family.  This sort of flies in the face of what we have talked about with the men being very spoiled by their mothers and the daughters not.  Most of the RW I met seemed to not be that spoiled and I have to wonder if the few I met were just too few to be a good sampling or if things change when they hit the real world.   Even in America we often feel only children are spoiled and only children are a lot more common in Russia so that can be another factor.   

[Gator]

VWRW,
As I stated before, I did not encounter such rude behavior in any RW I dated.  Even when a RW became angry with me, she never insulted me.

The most critical comments I heard were of the type, “Your shoes are not beautiful”, or “You are skinny, you need to eat more because I like big men”.  Believe me, I am not skinny and my shoes are expensive British shoes. 

On the whole, I found all RW to behave like a lady.  Nevertheless, I must say that RW are more direct, and if something bothers them, they express it immediately in certain terms.  Perhaps this is what some men are referring to as bluntness.

We all have different reference points, framed by the character of the particular few RW we met and our history with AW.   Overall, I would say that RW are slightly more of a lady than my AW wives/girlfriends, far less hesitant to express displeasure, and not as tactful.   

Is any of this a character flaw in RW?  No.  In fact, I find RW directness both refreshing and productive, versus my 25-year marriage to a clinically depressed woman who was reticent, not forthright, and certainly did not disclose the whole truth.

VWRW, how about the other character issues:  prompted by a life of no luxuries (Lilly's comments) or being raised by a single mom (Blues Fairy's comments)?

[Misha]

I have to agree with VWRW.   I do think Russians are a little more direct than Americans but I have not found them to be hurtful or rude (maybe rude cutting in lines but not conversation).  I don't think most Russians would go up to someone and say you are fat or you are ugly or for that matter you look like a slug.  Sorry to ruffle any feathers but I see much more rudeness here among a very few people than I ever have in an Russians I have met. 

Well, not directly. When I met my wife's family, my sister-in-law told my wife in front of my mother-in-law that I wasn't her type because I wasn't thin enough. My mother-in-law then replied that this was a good since I wasn't her boyfriend and she then affirmed that she liked me. Then, she pointed out that the skinny boyfriends my sister-in-law liked tended to be lushes.

My wife, now, does point out on a regular basis that I MUST lose weight to meet her ideal weight for me.

[Blues Fairy]

And by the way, I have observed in my travels many happy, young Russian families.  The father was spending time with his child and seemed to love it.  So what is the norm, a good family man or a cheating, irresponsible husband?  Surely it is the former.

Seemed is the key word.  My father also seemed good when observed by other people.  At home, he was quite different.
But I did not mean to generalize, Gator.  Of course a loving, active, dedicated father is the norm - just not for that many Russian families, unfortunately.  

Irresponsibility does not necessarily manifest itself in walking out on wife and kids when hardship strikes.  Marriages can crumble long before kids arrive, for various reasons.  It's a known fact that early in the relationship, many couples start unconcsiously fighting for the role of care recipient, or "the little one".  They get sick in turns, because the sicker and the more unfortunate you are, the more pampering and emotional support you deserve.  Eventually the more adult one gives in and assumes the role of the emotional caregiver; not unfrequently it is the woman who has to do so.  She is encouraged to do so by all her upbringing.

It's true that in today's Russian families, teen girls may be spoiled primadonnas whereas boys may be more adjusted and mature.  My comments perhaps pertain more to my own generation +5/ -5 years - what I've seen in the families I know.  But, as I have stated in previous threads, I was lucky enough to date many very decent Russian gentlemen.

[Blues Fairy]

I categorically disagree that most of RW (I have met in Russia) are such blunt people that surrounding people need a much thicker skin to deal with them.
I would be ashamed if women who “represent” Russia abroad are such direct/blunt as the men say above.

Agree 100%.
But you know what I think - perhaps the RW these guys came across were just probing the thickness of their skin.  When you are getting to know someone, it's a wise tactic to poke a little harder than your usual just to see how much a guy can take.  Because over-sensitive men who easily take offense often start fighting quite dirty in real life conflicts.   

[KenC]

I have to agree with VWRW. 

Oh, what a surprise!  
KenC

[WmGO]

[ It's a known fact that early in the relationship, many couples start unconcsiously fighting for the role of care recipient, or "the little one".  They get sick in turns, because the sicker and the more unfortunate you are, the more pampering and emotional support you deserve.  Eventually the more adult one gives in and assumes the role of the emotional caregiver; not unfrequently it is the woman who has to do so.
[/quote]

Man! Bless the potatoes and pass the pampers! 

BF, you are quite a psychologist! I am impressed with your deep insights
on relationships and tend to agree with you on most of them...........

Speaking of pampers, this gives me an idea for a Southpark episode: overweight and balding middle aged AM bags younger good looking FSUW and competes with her in subtle psychological (and crazy) ways as to who is going to get the most pampering.........

We need to have a thread called "Pamper Revelations" where all the married folks 'fess
up to their Pamper Competitions............

[William3rd]

Oh, what a surprise!  
KenC

 :ROFL:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- 

[Turboguy]

I want you to know that I only agree with VWRW when she is right.   Of course she is always right anyway.