A year ago this would have surprised me.

[Kuna]

Kuna: First I did not open my relationship for discussion.

And my point still stands, when I began this endeavor something like taking money instead of the flowers would have surprised me. It no longer does.

HiTech

1.  You did open up discussion on your relationship... check your initial post...

2.  You haven't told us which recommended agencies are dishonest...  It'd be nice for you to follow up with some facts after dragging existing and trusted members of RWD into your scam thread.

So who is it?

[Gator]

I have some free time today as the weather is mix of snow and rain here in Moscow and Mama will not let me take the kids for a walk. 

So I read this. 

Dale, you are becoming more experienced with UW and their culture.   I agree that most of us are surprised by what we experience in our first trip, yet as we continue to make trips, we are no longer surprised and  in fact begin to understand.  That is the main point of your thread starter.

Having said that, I am still confused by this situation. 

What idiot would send flowers to a woman who became engaged to another man?  Seemingly that would happen only if he and she were continuing to talk while she was dating her future fiancee.  However, there are real idiots out there and perhaps this man was a crazy dreamer who had never communicated with the woman.  Confusing.

Or did this woman pull this stunt upon becoming engaged to the man who sent the roses?

$10 seems such a little reward for  doing this.  Serebro's term of "starving" is perhaps sadly true.  I guess I am accustomed to Moscow prices.  BTW, if these were roses, the agency pocketed more than $10.

Maybe you should elaborate some more now that you started this.

[timothe]

Ok, I totally agree with you on this. But what about the American tradition to return unwanted presents after the Christmas. And how many of us pretended that they are very happy to the present which in the best case scenario will end up somewhere in the deep corner of the garage?
I believe it's almost the same. We try to be polite, girls try to be polite.

I don't justify this Ukranian tradition, just pointing out that there is one very similar here.

In my family, we were not taught to return gifts or to regift. (although some gifts may eventually end up in the annual "garage sale".)  So I'm not sure if this practice is an American Tradition, though many do it.

One of the ideas I tried to impart in my trip report was my lady constantly telling me that Ukrainians always go for the money and cannot be trusted.  (She's half Russian, half Ukrainian but claims she's all Russian  )

People do what they do to survive.  I don't see this situation as a big deal. 

A more comparable situation is Americans who drove around after 9/11 with flags on their cars cheating the IRS for every dollar they can.  It's normal for Americans to take every possible advantage on their taxes.  It has no bearing on their honesty or their patriotism.  Right?

[ScottinCrimea]

RW are sentimental but they are practical as well  to keep a gift they can't use or flowers that will wilt in five days is not practical.  They have to weigh the two and come to a decision that fits with their current situation.  In this case, the woman kept the sentimentality of the gesture of sending flowers by having a picture taken and also was practical in taking the money that she had more use for.  You can agree or disagree, but until you've been in the position where you don't have the luxury of choosing sentimentality over practicality, you can't really judge.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I know my wife would never accept a gift like this from any man.



Thomas

[Misha]

Having said that, I am still confused by this situation. 

What idiot would send flowers to a woman who became engaged to another man?

Or did this woman pull this stunt upon becoming engaged to the man who sent the roses?

$10 seems such a little reward for  doing this.  Serebro's term of "starving" is perhaps sadly true.  I guess I am accustomed to Moscow prices.  BTW, if these were roses, the agency pocketed more than $10.

Maybe you should elaborate some more now that you started this.

I agree with Gator this is confusing. The only reason that I know of as to why a man would send flowers to a woman after her engagement is in the hopes that he will be fall-back guy when she breaks up with her beau.

And, in my experience $10 (250 rubles) won't get you much in terms of flowers in Russia. If you are lucky, a couple of nice roses and certainly not a bouquet of roses. Gator is right, the agency likely pocketed a lot more.

[HiTech]

gabaub: You are correct 11 flowers cost more than $10. They charge about $75 for the photo and delivery. So yes they make more by giving the money.

I also have no desire to name the agency, and get in the middle of a pissing match.

HiTech

[Misha]

gabaub: You are correct 11 flowers cost more than $10. They charge about $75 for the photo and delivery. So yes they make more by giving the money.

I also have no desire to name the agency, and get in the middle of a pissing match.

HiTech

In the original post you write: "Agency offerers her money or the flowers." It seems to me that the agency likely had no interest in offering the flowers: they received $75 and spend $11. That is a pretty sweet profit margin.

[Kuna]

I also have no desire to name the agency, and get in the middle of a pissing match.

HiTech

Strange character...

You either have proof that agencies recommended here are dishonest or not!

You make an accusation and leave everyone to think who the dishonest ones might be...

Not many agencies are recommended here very often... who is it?  EM's? Richard in Tver? Thor in Kharkov?  Jack?

By making accusations and not providing detail you're potentially defaming all.

Maybe the scam comment was a "joke" like the Ukrainian tradition comment... but I doubt it. 

[Serebro]

RW are sentimental but they are practical as well  to keep a gift they can't use or flowers that will wilt in five days is not practical. 

Scott, how much time have you lived in Russia?! Stop using this lable "RW" when you speak about UW, ok, newbies may misunderstand you and these "practical girls exchanging roses, kisses, love, phone calls,  and whatever else into money"will scare them away.
People can be practical, but chosing the present or changing it into cash isn't a practical thing, it's a mean thing.

I think it may also depend on the situation, but I doubt it was the situation when a young bright healthy girl who could easilt find job suffered from lack of money or needed money for a serious opearation or had no money to feed her children.And for some reason HiTech isn't open for the discussion of this point.

and I repeat-this is the symbol of a flower- a flower gives you a couple of pleasant minutes and thoughts about someone or something and it fades and becomes nothing in a couple of days. there is no any materialistic profit. As its only aim is to give you a couple of pleasant minutes that will stay in your heart forever.

I remember many years ago there was a Russian TV show named "Moya Semya"-"My family" and one programm was devoted to the topic of presents. That programm was called "One million of red roses".
"One million of red roses" was a VERY popular and well-known hit song of a very well-known Russian singer Alla Pugacheva and it is considered to be one of the most romantic songs ever.
It's about  love of one poor artist who sold all his paintings, his house and all he had and bought a million of red roses on that money, he did that to give a couple of pleasant minutes to the acress whom he loved very much, the acress who visited that town for a couple of days and she didn't even know his name. So in the morning when she opened her window she saw a street full of flowers and later that day she left the town without knowing about the person who had made that present to her.
And the last words of the song say that those people had nothing in common and they had no future but they both had one day in their life that impressed them in a great way.


So back to the show.

People discussed that topic concerning flowers and other presents and at the end of the show one rich Russian man came who told his love story when he had met a beautiful girl who he had loved very much and she had told him that she had loved him, too but when he lost lots of money she left him.
So he came to the TV show and told that he had another successful business and he was looking for a new girl through this programm but that his money attracted lot of "plastic girls with fake feelings", so he wasn't going to present expensive things to her, he was going to live an ordinary life but that case with the previous girl had completely changed his opinion on money and everything and that he had thought a lot about that song "one million of red roses". So, he said that his future gf would not suffer from lack of necessary things but she would not have any presents except for flowers which would give her the feelings only, but would not be of any profit to her.And he asked his assistants to bring the flowers to the studio...he bought one million of roses and he told that it was his wedding present to his future wife. The whole huge room was full of flowers and people were sitting there being shocked and I am sure that old women who had discussed the topic of presents and preferred to have some cash to be able to buy a new fur coat were shocked, too...

PS:after the show some people were gathering those flowers from the floor... it looked like they were going to sell them... one rose cost about $1 that time.There was one million of them.

[ScottinCrimea]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all live in the fantasy world of songs...

[Serebro]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all live in the fantasy world of songs...

I do my best
I have a wonderful life, only one thing is missing, but I work at it:)

[HiTech]

Kuna: My goal is not to tarnish any agency. For all I know the flower swap was not done by the agency, but simply the person sent by the agency to purchase the flowers split the money.
 

[Kuna]

Kuna: My goal is not to tarnish any agency. For all I know the flower swap was not done by the agency, but simply the person sent by the agency to purchase the flowers split the money.
 

Have you asked the agency about it???

How about the other agency you accuse of writing letters on behalf of the girls?  That is unquestionably scam behaviour... and you say it is an agency that is regularly recommended here.

By making that statement you're casting a cloud over all trusted agencies that are recommended here...  and that is grossly unfair to the honest ones!

[HiTech]

Kuna: The agency who was writing letters was writing them for my girl. She had never seen a picture or profile or letter of me until about 20 minutes before we met. They did get most of the facts correct about her in the letters.

HiTech

[I/O]

The game of love can be an awefully grubby business. I do think the agency should be named or it just remains a story which may well be a figment of someones imagination. :noidea:

I/O

[Mir]

who is it?  EM's? Richard in Tver? Thor in Kharkov?  Jack?

Interesting Kuna that you have decided that Thor runs an agency in Kharkov

Serebro

There are many women/men in Ukraine who call themselves Russian.If there is a family of Mexican immigrants living in US they will be called Mexican although they might have US passports. In UK there are generations of Pakistani and Indian immigrants who's women are called Pakistani/Indian etc though they have British passports etc. it is a cultural thing.

Scott

Perhaps to be politically correct when we want to mention a charaterestic of the women that are discussed on this board when should use the term FSU women, and change the name of the forum to FSU Women Discussion Board.

[Serebro]

Perhaps to be politically correct when we want to mention a charaterestic of the women that are discussed on this board when should use the term FSU women,

Will it mean that people living in FSU countries are the same and have the same laws?!
the laws that exist in Ukraine may not exist in Russia or Uzbekistan....

[Kuna]

Will it mean that people living in FSU countries are the same and have the same laws?!
the laws that exist in Ukraine may not exist in Russia or Uzbekistan....

Serebro,

Your continued argument about Russians and Ukrainians being so different (and therefore people shouldn't label UW as RW) is correct in the literal sense...  but if you look at your argument practically you must acknowledge that you're just being antagonistic.

You claim RW and UW are so different so surely you must acknowledge Moscow women are different to a girl from a village out in whoop whoop?

You know very well that we group FSUW together for the sake of convenience just like we group AM for the sake of convenience.  Do you think a man from NYC is the same as a man from the deep south?  How about Australian men from Sydney and Dirrinbandi being different?  An Ebnglishman from London compared to a man from Birmingham?

Come on... give us a break!!  You're better than your recent behaviour would indicate because I know you have much more value to add than the arguments and complaints you're recycling at the moment.




mir,

I'm surprised you didn't realise???  He may not have a catalogue of women he can let a man peruse but agencies do more than just sell womens profiles.  In my mind an agency can be anyone making money from the promotion of international dating to western men.

What I'm disappointed in is that a shadow has been cast over all members of RWD that promote International Marriage - but a PM from the OP has explained his situation to me.

I think it would have been best not to make the original accusations if they couldn't be supported in the same forum they were made... but then again we all do things for our own reasons.

I should hope thor and all of our other members are NOT in fact guilty of any wrongdoing... I believe all of our members making money from the business are doing it for the right reasons!

Kuna

[BillyB]

Hitech,

I think you'd do a great service to newbies to mention the names of the agencies that did the flowers scam and writing letters on behalf of the women. Kuna took a hit when he complained about a well like translator but I can tell you now that the translator is not well like because of his own fault of giving Kuna crappy service.

Also I must say do not ignore the red flags of your RW. When I was married to my Ukrainian wife, she told me she once worked as a cashier in Ukraine and that almost all girls stole from the cash register. I found out how important money is to her in divorce. If your RW ever divorces you, especially jumping ship for another man that has more money, she will still get an attorney that will find out all what is in your name, play the poor immigrant card, get sympathy from the judge and you will be cleaned out. And better hope you aren't falsely accused of DV which will get you a label for the rest of your life.

I've seen enough guys on this forum who admitted they ignored the red flags and payed heavily financially and emotionally from a long and drawn out divorce. It's not too late to search for another woman who displays no red flags. I'm not trying to be hard on you, I'm just trying to help you from making a mistake me and others have made by ignoring red flags. You know better than all of us about your relationship. Just don't force yourself into a less than desirable situation.

[HiTech]

Thanks for the concern billy. The lady I was with this past spring was much more like how you describe with materialism. It took me a while to spot the selfishness in her.

Every day I look for the type of flags you speak of with my new lady. And to give you an Idea a normal week end for me is spent 12 hours both Saterday and Sunday speaking via skype video conference.  All other days are between 2 and 4 hours. I am also amazed at the difference between video phone vs text chatting or phone.

We are just at the beginning. A lot of face time and learning about each other to come before getting married.

Dale



 

[BillyB]

Good luck to you Dale. You seem like a good guy and deserve a nice woman. You have lots of time to evaluate your RW before walking down the aisle. Don't let love blind you, this is a good time to truly get to know your RW and figure out if her motives are sincere or insincere.

[timothe]

Serebro,

Your continued argument about Russians and Ukrainians being so different (and therefore people shouldn't label UW as RW) is correct in the literal sense...  but if you look at your argument practically you must acknowledge that you're just being antagonistic.

You claim RW and UW are so different so surely you must acknowledge Moscow women are different to a girl from a village out in whoop whoop?

I think I'd just give it a rest, Kuna.  Even if it is not obvious to the men, there are obviously big differences between RW and UW. 

Here was a sample conversation I had with my Olga in Yalta:

Her:  Ukrainian people are bad...I don't like them. 
Me:  But dear, you're father is Ukrainian.  So you are half Russian and half Ukrainian, right?
Her:  Yes.
Me: (waiting)
Her:  But I'm Russian Woman, not Ukrainian woman.  I live in Rostov as a child. 

Now at this point, I could take a number of wrong turns in the conversation.  I could ask her if her father was a bad man...I could tease her for being half Ukrainian...I could try to explain again, as I had done countless times before, that not all people from one country could be bad.  However, experience has taught me that there is a fight at the end of all roads. 

Me: Yes dear.  You are a beautiful Russian woman!!
Her:  Thanks, my darling!!  (kiss)

This was not my first lesson in "yes dear" but I'm sure it won't be my last, either.    

[Mir]

Will it mean that people living in FSU countries are the same and have the same laws?!
the laws that exist in Ukraine may not exist in Russia or Uzbekistan....

Laws, governments etc have nothing to do with this issue

[Serebro]

I think I'd just give it a rest, Kuna.  Even if it is not obvious to the men, there are obviously big differences between RW and UW. 

Here was a sample conversation I had with my Olga in Yalta:

Her:  Ukrainian people are bad...I don't like them. 
Me:  But dear, you're father is Ukrainian.  So you are half Russian and half Ukrainian, right?
Her:  Yes.
Me: (waiting)
Her:  But I'm Russian Woman, not Ukrainian woman.  I live in Rostov as a child. 

Now at this point, I could take a number of wrong turns in the conversation.  I could ask her if her father was a bad man...I could tease her for being half Ukrainian...I could try to explain again, as I had done countless times before, that not all people from one country could be bad.  However, experience has taught me that there is a fight at the end of all roads. 

Me: Yes dear.  You are a beautiful Russian woman!!
Her:  Thanks, my darling!!  (kiss)

This was not my first lesson in "yes dear" but I'm sure it won't be my last, either.    

I am not speaking about ancestors and background or what was with ukrainians 100 years ago and what they were like. It's not important here.
It's not about their blood or genetics or their roots. It's about their opinions, their views, their ideas and values NOW.
So I am sure that was what your gf meant when she meant she was Russian though you told her about her ancestors...she told you about their present day actions and behavior and you told her about having a little amount of ukrainian blood.
I don't hate their country, their nationality, their look on the whole because of this name, I have already told you about that many many times before in many other threads.
These are  their ACTIONS, the way they act and values they have. When I speak about them I know not all people are the same, there are exceptions, I mean majority of them.

I am sure it's the same with Jazzy who celebrated her wedding in the Ukrainian restaurant and at the same time she says that she doesn't like ukrainian women and find them rude.

For me it's not about their flag colors, , their cuisine, their accent and other things that I "hate", it's about the philosophy of life of most of them...and their philosophy (ok, not all, but of most of them) is too much about material posessions, clothes, short skirts, cosmetics and clinging to someone who pays.And loving him of course. As soon as he pays.It also affect the government politics, who clings to the USA and to the West who is ready to pay to Ukraine for using its territory for their political(partly military) purposes...
that's what most people mean when they don't like Ukrainians...

Mir

Quote
Will it mean that people living in FSU countries are the same and have the same laws?!
the laws that exist in Ukraine may not exist in Russia or Uzbekistan....


Laws, governments etc have nothing to do with this issue

Really?! So if you are going to use the term FSU women you will put all women into one cultural/behavioral pot. And it's not the same.

Well, maybe sometimes it's hard to distinguish a RW and a UW but UzW are very different and their upbringing is very much like it's in the east.If you are going to give the same advice to the guy who is going to meet an UW and an UzW it may easily break their relationship.