Child in England.

[HiTech]

I apologize JB I did not know you were the great decider of interesting topics. Excuse my lack of knowledge on the internet and search engines I have only just recently started being online 17 years ago. Also please excuse my knowledge of people who like to post on fourms just to hear them self speak. This is the first forum that I have used in the last 5 minutes.

Also please excuse my knowledge of people who like to keep the target moving on an argument when they have been corned. Because the only way they can save face is to have the last word.

Also thank you very much for helping me understand the world of train wrecks, how to use a search engine , why I choose my handle and what constitutes a BS topic, and pointing out I am poor and enjoy writing prenups on my own. With out you JB none of things could have occurred to me.

And thank you very much JB for keeping all the posts on topic, your direction in this thread has greatly added to its value and everyones knowledge of certain types of people to be avoided.

Please JB I do look forward to you next piece of all knowing advise because I stand with baited breath of you knowledge how people should be treated because you obviously are a very gracious gentleman.

And also JB please point out any short comings I have because I am nothing but a dim shadow when I stand in your  light and knowledge about dealing with people and different personality types.



HiTech

[jb]

Actually, I had expected a re joiner with a bit more zip,,, that was pretty lame.

You are, in fact, still a newbie.  Why not admit that you know nothing about FSUW, and go from there?

You might actually get some info to work with in the future that might lead to a successful relationship.  Personally, I think the problem is with you, you are not ready for a long term commitment,,,get some help. 

[HiTech]

Thank you for your critique of my post JB And you are correct all the worlds problems are cause by me. Forgive my great disgrace and once again I appreciate your true wisdom. And thank you for pointing out my limited knowledge of the FSU because I have claimed to be an expert many times on this board.

Please oh please JB can you tell me the meaning of life and point me in the right direction? Because with out your great wisdom and knowledge about all of life I am completely helpless.

HiTech

[jb]

How can any one help you when you are just being stupid?  Grow up,,, and then join us.  You are out of your league now.

[Turboguy]

Let me start of by saying I have read this thread a bit and have been siding with jb that there were some real red flags flying and HiTech was on a road that I would not want to be on.

VWRW had not seen this thread until just a little while ago.  She read most of it and we talked about it a bit and she converted me.  Of course her smile can convince me of anything.

We have all seen stories on TV that show MOB situations in bad light and we all know the media looks for sensational stories of heartbreak and disappointment.   VWRW tells me that there have been a number of programs on FSU TV that have shown how FSU women were basically robbed of their parental rights and their children in failed foreign marriages when the mothers have chosen to come back to their home country.   She fells HiTechs woman is quite justified in having fears about that and HiTech did bring up the possibility of failure in the relationship in asking for a PreNup.   

I think VWRW might have a bright future in sales.   I know she can sell me anything and hopefully this sale was not the Brooklyn Bridge.   I will change my feelings from real feelings of impending disaster to some very mild concern.

[I/O]

Turbo: Check out a "Thumb" sometime. You are in no danger of being sunburned as you are firmly and completely under the thumb.

HiTech: I hadn't looked at this thread at all until today and having read through it, I cannot imagine why you started it. I cannot imagine how such a conversation developed between you and this lady. I cannot imagine how she would be thinking to suggest some method of strengthening her parental rights in the event of failure. I cannot imagine how any conversation would continue between two consenting people once it got to that stage.

What I can observe from this distance is that JB for once is wrong, there is no upcoming train wreck. The train wreck has long since happened and the two of you are merely wondering around blind in the dust created by the smash waiting for something or someone to rescue you. That someone certainly won't be each other.

It's time to give this lady a fair shot at life and cut her loose. It's time to give yourself some semblance of a chance by cutting yourself loose and starting again. Whether or not you ultimately choose to accept advice here is up to you, but regardless you will, whether you proceed with this woman or not, look back to that conversation or what led to it and eventually realise the curtains went down on the show right there. Once the curtains of a woman's heart go down to the point she is not completely trusting you, they are never coming up again. 'Tis as 'tis.

I/O

[ISORW]

Scott & AJ: I agree with both your post. I see the same as you, and believe me when I say my eyes are wide open.

I in no way see this as a done deal. We have some very big hurdles to overcome.

Maybe I misunderstood the situation somewhere along the way but my impression was that you've asked her to marry you...so if not I'm sorry if I'm operating under the wrong assumption...but...if you did indeed ask her to marrry you...why would you ask her to marry you if you still have big hurdles to overcome?  Aren't most of the big hurdles supposed to be overcome *before* you ask her to marry you?

[Misha]

I am really confused. Wasn't the reason HiTech's woman got the flowers was to congratulate her for her engagement? (I.e. the other thread where she got $10 to pose with a bouquet of flowers and the agency pocketed the difference). And wasn't there another threat where HiTech was asking about wedding dresses?

[catzenmouse]

This thread reminds me of another one a few months ago about if someone could get away with a fake engagement ring for awhile to see if she would be worth upgrading the ring at some future time. Think it was all decided when Mommie gave her blessing on the future bride.

Question: If a person gives limited details about themselves and their situation why do they usually cry foul later on with posts like "You don't know me" when they get their chain yanked?  :noidea:

Ken

[vwrw]

Turbo: Check out a "Thumb" sometime. You are in no danger of being sunburned as you are firmly and completely under the thumb.
I/O

I/O, Only the stupid and died people never change their mind.   If you have never changed your opinion after communicating with a woman, who had opposite opinion, you can decide yourself which of those categories you are in.

OR instead you may prefer to think women are disabled to think logically and they never bring to the light a convincing argument but only able to control by using a part of their body.  This point of view is popular among primitive men considering women to be inferior to male gender.

[docetae]

I am really confused. Wasn't the reason HiTech's woman got the flowers was to congratulate her for her engagement? (I.e. the other thread where she got $10 to pose with a bouquet of flowers and the agency pocketed the difference). And wasn't there another threat where HiTech was asking about wedding dresses?

And something I don't understand...if you are almost engaged, why does she has still contact with agency (thead about flowers) ?

This is not clear. Even the woman from CC with who I have been during a little more than one year before realizing she was not the right one, removed her profile from the agency one month after our first meeting...

But regarding child, you can tell her to choose Canada... more close to US and good advantages too.

[Simoni]

 VWRW tells me that there have been a number of programs on FSU TV that have shown how FSU women were basically robbed of their parental rights and their children in failed foreign marriages when the mothers have chosen to come back to their home country.   

Absolutely correct.  Those shows are rampant in Ukraine, too....and provide insights into this issue.

This was a major concern Marina had, and something we had to work out BEFORE she would commit to me.  She wanted to be sure she would not lose a future child.

Russian women believe what they see on TV.

[Turboguy]

I think one thing that we tend to forget is that the history of the FSU gives our ladies much less trust and confidence in fairness of the government and life and they tend to naturally have more suspicions and concerns and feel a need to look out for their own interests.

This thread reminds me of another one a few months ago about if someone could get away with a fake engagement ring for awhile to see if she would be worth upgrading the ring at some future time. Think it was all decided when Mommie gave her blessing on the future bride.

Question: If a person gives limited details about themselves and their situation why do they usually cry foul later on with posts like "You don't know me" when they get their chain yanked?  :noidea:

Ken

It seems to me it is not so much that we have not been given information but that some of the information we have been given is a little contradictory.    One post seems to have them close to engaged and another has them not making any firm decisions for a year.   I wish I had more time.  I would like to reread all the threads about the relationship to see if I can understand better exactly where things are.

[William3rd]

The child issue cuts both ways. . . .

There are many many many cases where the woman leaves the US and withholds visitation from the father.

So the first thing to do in a foreign marriage case is to seek orders that limit travel, seize passports and restrict passport applications-at least until the child is old enough to communicate on his own or becomes a teenager.

And it isnt settled until a court issues orders- not on the day of the marriage, not on the day of birth, only on the day of separation.

If the parents are wealthy then no problem, the child just travels a lot. But for us lesser mortals, who loses the frequent contact with the child?

[ScottinCrimea]

Maybe it's just the short term memory fading in a few of our members here, but I don't seem to have any probloem understanding how this relationship has progressed and where it stands now.  Maybe some need to do some review before they start blasting someone based on mixed up information.

Maybe I misunderstood the situation somewhere along the way but my impression was that you've asked her to marry you...so if not I'm sorry if I'm operating under the wrong assumption...but...if you did indeed ask her to marrry you...why would you ask her to marry you if you still have big hurdles to overcome?  Aren't most of the big hurdles supposed to be overcome *before* you ask her to marry you?

This has to be one of the most misinformed statements I have read yet.  Anyone who has been on this board for any amount of time has heard many many people talk about how the easy part is getting engaged and how then the real work begins - things such as the visa process, her adjusting to a new live, etc.  These are the real big hurdles in the whole process and I think this was what HiTech was referrring to.

I found it interesting to read Turbo's post about vwrw's comments because my wife said basically the same thing.  So it appears that two RW who are already married are basically agreeing that it would make sense for HiTech's fiance to at least think about these things.  Go ahead and say I'm under my wife's thumb same as Turbo.  You might want to try it sometime.  It's not such a bad place.

[catzenmouse]

TG,

 I wasn't even addressing any inconsistencies. Enough other's are following that path. Just something I've noticed over the years when I see a "you don't know me" or "you don't understand my situation" type of statement.

 I always get the thought: "Well Duh! How can anyone understand or know when we are only fed highly selective bits of information?"

Oh well, on with the show!
 

[Misha]

VWRW tells me that there have been a number of programs on FSU TV that have shown how FSU women were basically robbed of their parental rights and their children in failed foreign marriages when the mothers have chosen to come back to their home country.

But, their parental rights have not been "robbed." Their "rights" to return to live in Ukraine or Russia may have been hampered, but if they want to live in their adopted country with their children they will have no problem getting this approved by a judge. I have an easy solution for any woman from Ukraine or Russia who wants to have a child and want to be guaranteed that she can stay in Ukraine or Russia with that child: marry a Ukrainian man or a Russian man and stay in your home country. Problem solved. Otherwise, as William has pointed out, it will be the father who will be robbed of his parental rights as his children will grow up in another country thousands of miles away. A woman who chooses to immigrate makes a choice and that choice has consequences.

[Turboguy]

Ken,  I miss having the time to keep up on RWD but since VRWR arrived I am busy leading a real life which is a nice change.   I get a little time here and there.   I hate to say things I am not sure of and my memories of HiTech's situation are in bits and pieces and not complete.

VWRW and the other comments have changed my feelings to be that I don't see HiTech's woman in a bad light at all from the "England" comment.   Maybe I would give her actions a few yellow flags but no red ones at this stage. 

I have to agree with you that when they get to the "You don't know me" stage they are not usually looking at their situation objectively.   Still he was getting a lot of flack and his question that he asked for an answer on was technical not ethical. 

Gabaub, moving to a foreign country, giving up your friends and family and not knowing much about how the law works would be a scary thing for any woman.   If she is not concerned about the possible pitfalls then I think I would question her mental state.    I don't think her idea is that valid but I can understand her logic in considering it.

[Misha]

Gabaub, moving to a foreign country, giving up your friends and family and not knowing much about how the law works would be a scary thing for any woman.   If she is not concerned about the possible pitfalls then I think I would question her mental state.    I don't think her idea is that valid but I can understand her logic in considering it.

What you disregard Turbo is what she is often saying:

1. She wants the right to get married and have a child;
2. She wants the right to choose whether she will stay in her adopted country after marriage or return home and not respect the wishes of the father;
3. If she returns back to her home country, she wants the right to collect child support.

Simply put, she wants to have her cake and eat it too. Before having a child, a man and woman should sort out a few things. And, if a woman wants the right to return to her country with their children (knowing that she will be able to deny  his parental rights), then I would run.

[ScottinCrimea]

Actually, it's the man who wants to have his cake and eat it too.  It seems it would be her preference to live in Ukraine, not the US.  She is willing to move to be with the man she loves.  So if there is a break-up, it seems to me that there are two choices:  One, that she stays in a country she doesn't prefer and where it would be difficult to earn a living so that the father can sit comfortably in his own country and have his parental rights, or, Two, that he moves to Ukraine so that she can live in HER country of preference and he can still have his parental rights.  Why should it be the woman who must be the one to sacrifice for the child?  Isn't there an equal obligation and shouldn't the expectations be the same?  Maybe it should be the woman who should run if a man isn't willing to do the same that you seem to expect the woman to do.

Where was it mentioned that she wants the right to collect child support?

[Misha]

Actually, it's the man who wants to have his cake and eat it too.  It seems it would be her preference to live in Ukraine, not the US.  She is willing to move to be with the man she loves.  So if there is a break-up, it seems to me that there are two choices:  One, that she stays in a country she doesn't prefer and where it would be difficult to earn a living so that the father can sit comfortably in his own country and have his parental rights, or, Two, that he moves to Ukraine so that she can live in HER country of preference and he can still have his parental rights.  Why should it be the woman who must be the one to sacrifice for the child?  Isn't there an equal obligation and shouldn't the expectations be the same?  Maybe it should be the woman who should run if a man isn't willing to do the same that you seem to expect the woman to do.

Where was it mentioned that she wants the right to collect child support?

Scott, if you have a child and have to pay child support, you have to pay even if she was living on the moon. Do you really think that a RW who is getting divorced won't ask for child support? If the man wants to marry a woman who will divorce him in a few years and then return with their children to Russia or Ukraine, while he pays her child support, then I would tell him to go for it. If he is, however, a good father and a committed father and wants to play a real role in his children's life, then he should make sure that his future wife agrees that the children will stay in his country.

Again, if she wants to be guaranteed the right to stay  in her country and raise any future children in her country, then I would encourage her to marry a local man. Nobody is forcing her to get married to a foreigner, nobody is forcing her to leave to go live to another country.

[Turboguy]

1. She wants the right to get married and have a child;

Good for her.  I think I just saw one of our members raked over the coals for suggesting a different way of doing it.   I am a little old fashioned myself.   I always thought it was nice if a child could have two parents, preferably one of each kind, hopefully married to each other and living together.

2. She wants the right to choose whether she will stay in her adopted country after marriage or return home and not respect the wishes of the father;

Moving to a foreign country where you have never visited is a scary thing.  I would want the option of choosing too if I were here.   I think a lot of women are not sure about living in America when they come but once they get used to things here most would not want to move back.  She is planning to enter into a marriage not be a slave.

3. If she returns back to her home country, she wants the right to collect child support.

Simply put, she wants to have her cake and eat it too. Before having a child, a man and woman should sort out a few things. And, if a woman wants the right to return to her country with their children (knowing that she will be able to deny  his parental rights), then I would run.

Scott questions if she really said that and I have already said I have not had the time to be totally up on everything but if a man fathers a child is he not usually expected to pay child support?   An AM-RW relationship is always a gamble.   He seems to be ready for that gamble.  

I can't see that denying his parental rights is much worse than denying hers.  Now if it were my rights vs someone else's then of course my rights are the important ones and everyone else's rights are trivial!!!!   We all tend to look at things based on our own interests and expectations but you need to be able to take a balanced view of things.

[Misha]

I can't see that denying his parental rights is much worse than denying hers.  Now if it were my rights vs someone else's then of course my rights are the important ones and everyone else's rights are trivial!!!!   We all tend to look at things based on our own interests and expectations but you need to be able to take a balanced view of things.

Again, her rights will not being denied. HER FULL PARENTAL RIGHTS WILL BE RESPECTED AND SHE WILL MORE THAN LIKELY GAIN CUSTODY OF THE CHILD IN THE UNITED STATES! The only right that is denied is her "right" to leave the country without the father's permission. I will repeat once again: if she wants to have the right to raise a child in Ukraine or Russia, she has the right to marry a Ukrainian or Russian citizen and have as many children as her heart desires there.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott, if you have a child and have to pay child support, you have to pay even if she was living on the moon. Do you really think that a RW who is getting divorced won't ask for child support? If the man wants to marry a woman who will divorce him in a few years and then return with their children to Russia or Ukraine, while he pays her child support, then I would tell him to go for it. If he is, however, a good father and a committed father and wants to play a real role in his children's life, then he should make sure that his future wife agrees that the children will stay in his country.

Again, if she wants to be guaranteed the right to stay  in her country and raise any future children in her country, then I would encourage her to marry a local man. Nobody is forcing her to get married to a foreigner, nobody is forcing her to leave to go live to another country.

gabaub, Of course child support would be expected.  You totally missed my point.  You said this "she wants the right to collect child support".  There is nothing in what it was reported that she said that this was on her mind at all.  You imply that her wants are financial when to my mind she seems more concerned about being with her child.

Now let's turn your other argument around:  If a man wants to be guaranteed to stay in HIS own country and to raise any future children in HIS country, maybe you should encourage him to marry a local woman.  Nobody is forcing HIM to get married to a foreigner.  You are expecting the woman to give up HER desire to live in her native country and raise HER child in her native country.  Why don't you expect the same from the man?  Why must the woman be forced to live in HIS country for the good of the child?  Why shouldn't the man be expected to live in HER country?

Let's rephrase one of your quotes:  <If he is, however, a good father and a committed father and wants to play a real role in his children's life, then he should [be willing to move to HER country to make this happen]>

LIke I mentioned before, one of the reasons that I moved to Ukraine was that it was better for her/our daughter to stay there.  sure it required some sacrifices on my part, but if I wanted to be a good father and do what was best for her, this was the right thing to do.  I'm no expecting anything of anyone here that I wasn't willing to do.

[catzenmouse]

The only right that is denied is her "right" to leave the country without the father's permission.

Isn't the opposite generally expected by many men here? The father in the FSU is expected to give up his rights to see the child so that the man here can get his way and have his lady w/child come to him?

Sure, in some (even many) cases the FSU father does not care one way or the other but in some (maybe also many) cases this is not true. Who's to say the father here would be any better or worse than the stereotype we are fed about FSU men?

Where would a woman feel that she could survive with a child? In a strange country with limited resources, limited language, and limited friends/family or with her family who would be her support system, care for the child while she works and shops, and be there for and with her in an environment that she is comfortable with?

No sides taken here just throwing things out for thought.

Ken