Quick question

[Lily]

A girl from a foreign country who wants to marry someone from the west.

And to everyone else, I'm going to call the girl by her name once I know it, OBVIOUSLY.

In my first post here I used the term mail order bride and it seemed to irritate some people. I don't want to spread this term around if it's wrong, so I just want to know a general term for these women for when I'm talking to my friends.

The term mail order bride is derogative because it emphazises that her main intention is to get to the west, and not to make her husband a happy man. As far as I know, in earlier times the mail order brides were women who listed their photos and profiles in catalogs, and were selected by men for marriage. May I point this out - they were selected by men, not vice versa. Her own opinion, her own feelings about who has chosen her to be his wife were unimportant. They may have been unimportant even for herself. He picked her up, paid money, and that was it. When I buy a pajama from Victoria Secret, do I ask the pajama about a consent to be my property?    

By the way, if a girl looks for eligible men on the dating sites, how would you Zeus call those men? Mail order bridegrooms?  

At the same time, the term mail order bride is offensive for men. The reason is that a man who wants to marry a woman whose only intent is to use him as a mule to the west is likely a looser, who is otherwise unable to get any woman at all. His best feature is his citizenship. He 'd agree to have a woman not because they love each other, but due to exchange of things like prospective citizenship and female body. This idea should be humiliating for any decent man.  

IMHO, two things are in play in understanding the term mail order bride: the men only choose, and the intent of woman.

Hope this explains for Zeusophobia.

Now on the proper term.  My suggestion would be Long distance relationship, albeit other terms offered here by Bill look ok. See, the main obstacle here is the distance, in my opinion. You are in love with a person who just happens to live on the other side of earth. She may well be living next door (you still may be able to find her online!) but it happens that it is not the occasion.  

[Lily]

Ok, so I want to find a girl without a degree. Aren't their less of them?

Thanks for the advice anyways, I just don't take kindly to someone telling me I have no common sence.

Well, I think that there are considerably less of girls without degrees, at least on the Internet sites. 

However, if you would consider a girl who is currently studying for a degree, but not having it yet, then eventually you could have some choice.

[acrzybear]

disregard

[Lily]

Get used to it Z.  You will hear that and a lot more when you marry a RW. 

 

Thomas, not necessarily. What if he finds a calm girl who would look at her beloved Zeus with a sort of owe? 

[acrzybear]

Thomas, not necessarily. What if he finds a calm girl who would look at her beloved Zeus with a sort of owe? 

Now that is funny!!!

I know you probably meant awe, but with the posts Zeus has written about all of the poor mail order brides trying to get out of their respective countries and being domesticated housewives-that was a perfect comment Lily.

 

[Zeusophobia]

Thomas, not necessarily. What if he finds a calm girl who would look at her beloved Zeus with a sort of owe? 

Calm is going to be the first thing I'm looking for. All these people describe RW to be a bit high-strung. I'm sure I'll be able to find a particularly easygoing RW.

[Lily]

Now that is funny!!!

I know you probably meant awe, but with the posts Zeus has written about all of the poor mail order brides trying to get out of their respective countries and being domesticated housewives-that was a perfect comment Lily.

 

Oh yes, sure, sorry - I meant awe.

However, awe does not quite has anything to do with submissiveness. Awe is....awe  I think it belongs to love that a woman has for her man. It is just a component.

[Lily]

Calm is going to be the first thing I'm looking for. All these people describe RW to be a bit high-strung. I'm sure I'll be able to find a particularly easygoing RW.

You should not settle for less than you want. You have all the time of your life for it.

My advice for you would be to think carefully what description of her desired qualities you would put in your profile. If you put it just the way you did it now, some may think that you really looks for a submissive person. That should be expressed very carefully inorder not to scare the girls off.

[Zeusophobia]

Now that is funny!!!

I know you probably meant awe, but with the posts Zeus has written about all of the poor mail order brides trying to get out of their respective countries and being domesticated housewives-that was a perfect comment Lily.

 

I defonitly did not write about that. All I did was ask why their are so many more Ukrainian women looking for a Western husband than Russian women. Considering Russia has 3x the population of Ukraine this seems a bit odd.

Coupled with the fact that Ukraine is in a much worse economic state than Russia, it only seems logical that they would be a little more open to leaving their country than the Russians.

If you can come up with a better reason then feel free, but American women are known to marry into money, my grandmother sure as hell did.

Let me explain further if you don't already understand.

I'm not saying that the Ukrainians are leaving their country JUST beceause of money. What I'm saying is that if it's a struggle to make ends meat every day in your homeland, you may be more open to leaving it than someone who'se not having those types of problems.

 So while one girl in Russia may consider marrying a westerner and decide against it beceause she doesn't want to leave her homeland. Someone from Ukraine will decide for it beceause they don't view their homeland as being so great.

Also I'de like to add that in Ukraine most of the politicians are corrupt, and their has been a study that showed Ukraine as one of the least healthy countries to live in. Considering people from FSU are so educated they probably know both of those facts. More incentive to leave.

Now if the Ukrainian had a choice, stay in Ukraine with the westerner or move to his country, she would probably choose to stay in Ukraine. But considering the state Ukraine is in at the present time, leaving the country would not be as big of an issue for the women.

Not that I've spelled it out for you, please don't twist my words anymore.

[Mir]

Lily

You are right that men were supposed to chose girls from other countries by flipping through a catalogue with photos and profiles. The term Mail Order Bride came from the concept that once a bride was chosen and ordered she will be shipped to the man's home address. So one fine day the door bell will ring and there she is in her fur coat with a suitcase of her belongings.
The term mail order bridegrooms does not fit since the men are not ordered and delivered to the lady's home.Perhaps the term for such men can be Males Who Order Brides by Mail

[Lily]

The term mail order bridegrooms does not fit since the men are not ordered and delivered to the lady's home.

Why not, I wonder?

[Mir]

Also I'de like to add that in Ukraine most of the politicians are corrupt, and their has been a study that showed Ukraine as one of the least healthy countries to live in

Corruption is rampant in both Ukraine and Russia, the latest figures from transparency international puts Ukraine at 118 in the rankings and Russia is even lower in the ranking at 143.
I don't know what study you have seen, life expectency at birth in Ukraine is 67.8 and in Russia it is 65.8.
Infant mortality in Ukraine is 9.5/1000 and for Russia it is 11.06/1000.
So little to chose between the two and in fact Ukraine is doing marginally better the Russia.
Also keep in mind that democracy and democratic institutes are doing better in Ukraine c/w Russia. No doubt Ukrainian democracy is struggling but it is very unlikely for Ukraine to become a totalitarian state again while for Russia this is become more and more likely.
While regional tensions exist in all countries Ukraine is not entangled in a never ending war like Chechnya.
Yes Russia has oil and gas to sell but windfall is short term and how the money is used is uncertain.
It is not true that Ukrainian women are more inclined to look for a husband so that they can emigrate to the West. Ukraine is much more accessable the Russia. There is no visa and the distances are no where as compared to Russia. But that means it is easier for others as well. So if you want to find a place where you have a better chance then I would suggest you go to Siberia or Russian Far East.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=up&v=29
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=up&v=29

[I/O]

Zeus:

Right from your opening post, I have noticed an ability to think it all through logically. Although you are up the creek on a few issues and without standing guard for you, which you are well capable of doing for yourself, I have to say that some of your harsher critics here are a tad off base IMO.

You have drawn very logical and sensible conclusions based on the information you have, but the problem is the infomation you obviously have had access to up till now is very flawed. For those of us who have been or are in this process up to our necks, we can see you have been fed some of the info we were fed months or years back and had to find out the hard way it was BS.

So for the sake of this exercise, I'll put a few points out which I beleive are basic truths. From that, take what you will from them and compute your ideas. I suspect with your ability, you will draw very different conclusions from those you were tending to in the first instance.

Russia is not a poor country.
There is poor people in Russia but it is not a poor country.
Ukraine is not a poor country.
Maybe slightly worse off than Russia, but there is many very wealthy people in Ukraine.
The vast majority of Eastern women have never considered meeting a foreigner, much less are seriously following this path.
Many FSU people have quite a nice life, even in the outlying areas.
MOB's are a thing of the past.
The majority of women who really want to leave Russia or Ukraine should be avoided like the plague. (Generally speaking)
A small handful of the female population of the FSU will actually seriously consider marrying a foreigner and usually they fall into one of two catagories, 1) Second class users 2) Very well (Some highly) educated, articualte and fine women who think a little beyond the square.
Both Russia and Ukraine have corruption up to their eyeballs.
The toughest stunt you will ever pull is marrying a foreign partner.
One has absolutely no idea of what to expect in reality until they have seen Russia or Ukraine first hand.
Most western men (If they ever make it to the east) looking for a partner find themselves a lot poorer and still single after quite some time.
Most FSU women know about as much and are less interested about (In this example) USA than you are/do about the FSU.
The difference between a cash based street level economy (Russia) and a credit based street level economy (Much of the west) filters into far more matters than money. This difference effects almost every part of ones life and thinking. The differences are huge.
Russian women are not stay at home baby factories.
Russian women are looking for a real romance in a very traditional sense therefore the distance relationship is extremely difficult.

Consider the above as a small sample of things which you won't be told on introduction sites or by the majority of agencies. Draw your own conclusions and it might start to paint a very 'nother picture.

When I buy a pajama from Victoria Secret,

Aha............................................that'd be worth being a fly on the wall to witness. No meetings in Belgium coming up anytime soon?

I/O

[acrzybear]

I definitely did not write about that. All I did was ask why their are so many more Ukrainian women looking for a Western husband than Russian women. Considering Russia has 3x the population of Ukraine this seems a bit odd.

Coupled with the fact that Ukraine is in a much worse economic state than Russia, it only seems logical that they would be a little more open to leaving their country than the Russians.And just what do you base this on? I've been to both countries and I have seen both ends of the financial spectrum.  If you are used to living a certain way and you can see and talk to all of your friends and family everyday, why would you take a chance on moving 4000+ miles on the slight chance things might be better?

If you can come up with a better reason then feel free, but American women are known to marry into money, my grandmother sure as hell did.It doesn't matter what country you look at, there are women (and men) that marry only for money

Let me explain further if you don't already understand. I am sooooo sorry, please write in mono syllable words so I can understand :selfharm:

I'm not saying that the Ukrainians are leaving their country JUST because of money. What I'm saying is that if it's a struggle to make ends meat every day in your homeland, you may be more open to leaving it than someone who's not having those types of problems. Perhaps, but each person is different

 So while one girl in Russia may consider marrying a westerner and decide against it because she doesn't want to leave her homeland. Someone from Ukraine will decide for it because they don't view their homeland as being so great. Your ignorance is showing here, Ukraine is doing better then it was 5 years ago.  If you think a lady wants to leave her country because "they don't view their homeland as being so great" you have got a lot to learn. Soviet women (I use this term for all Russian and FSU women) are very proud of who they are and where they come from.

Also I'd like to add that in Ukraine most of the politicians are corrupt, and their has been a study that showed Ukraine as one of the least healthy countries to live in. Considering people from FSU are so educated they probably know both of those facts. More incentive to leave.You are correct in that Ukraine has corrupt politicians, but so does the United States, Russia, Italy, Poland, South America, Japan etc...

Now if the Ukrainian had a choice, stay in Ukraine with the westerner or move to his country, she would probably choose to stay in Ukraine. This is the first statement you have written in this post that is close to being correct, but doesn't it contradict what you wrote above ("they don't view their homeland as being so great")But considering the state Ukraine is in at the present time, leaving the country would not be as big of an issue for the women. So leaving your family, friends, job and possibly an apartment you own is no big deal??

Not that I've spelled it out for you, please don't twist my words anymore. No need to, you're doing just fine by yourself

  I would challenge you to live for 6 months under the same conditions with the same amount of income these folks do- I seriously doubt you could.  I have been to Russia and Ukraine and I will tell you-the average Russian/Ukrainian citizen is a lot more resourceful/heartier then the average American.  If you had spent any time with a Russian family you would know how close they can be and that it is not as simple as packing your bags and getting on an airplane.

[Makkin]

  Your in the right place Zeus and for the record "Welcome"

Makkin

[Zeusophobia]

 I would challenge you to live for 6 months under the same conditions with the same amount of income these folks do- I seriously doubt you could.  I have been to Russia and Ukraine and I will tell you-the average Russian/Ukrainian citizen is a lot more resourceful/heartier then the average American.  If you had spent any time with a Russian family you would know how close they can be and that it is not as simple as packing your bags and getting on an airplane.

It's like everything you CAN manage to twist, you do. I didn't say "All Ukrainians hate their country" I said that they "may not see it as being so great"

In the US, we see our country as being great, meaning that very few of us are leaving for any reason, unlike Ukrainians who are leaving in droves, even if it's to find a better job outside of the country to send money to their family.

When I said they may not view their country as being so great, I didn't mean they hate everything about it. I meant aside from their family and friends who live close, and the fact that Ukrainian life is what they've become acustomed to, they probably realize that the country doesn't have alot to offer them and once weighing the pluses and minuses against eachother.

I did my best to write that statement in a way that you couldn't twist it around. I'm sure you'll find something to pick at though.

And I did find alot of information about Ukraine being in a moderately worse state than Russia, it may be misinformation.

The health problem with Ukraine, I'm sure they take great care of themselves, but I read an article about how the materials they are using in Ukraine are causing health problems. Such as pipelines and things of that nature.

Also, it seems the current Russian leader seems to care more about the country than himself whereas Ukraines leaders are buying themselves mercedes with tax dollars.

Some of this may be misinformation, I havn't found more than one source to support the health issue, but I have found alot of sources stating that Ukraine is in worse financial state than Russia.

[Lily]

Aha............................................that'd be worth being a fly on the wall to witness. No meetings in Belgium coming up anytime soon?

I/O

Where do you see any connection between those things? It is not me, please exclude me from your guesses.

[acrzybear]

Zeus

I am not twisting your words, you are making broad statements of certain areas you have no first hand knowledge of, would suggest doing alot of reading on this board (starting with http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=21) and asking questions.  

  There are certain things that I know- however I could not tell you the first thing about working on a piece of heavy equipment.

  I have traveled to several countries and I am far from knowing a fraction of what I need to know, I am continuously learning from fellow board members and first hand experience.  When you graduated from your MOS school, did you know everything? Or did you learn a lot by getting out and doing things yourself and busting a few of your knuckles?  

  You need to treat this the same way-listen to the veterans and read, read, read and ask questions then get your butt over there asap.  You can gain more from 2 weeks in the "field" then you can posting for a year on this board.  

[I/O]

It is not me, please exclude me from your guesses.

Very good. I doubted it would be you, thus I threw the opportunity to publically eliminate yourself from the riddle.


I/O

[Mir]

The health problem with Ukraine, I'm sure they take great care of themselves, but I read an article about how the materials they are using in Ukraine are causing health problems. Such as pipelines and things of that nature.

Both countries have the same Soviet infrastructure and health risks will be the same.

Also, it seems the current Russian leader seems to care more about the country than himself whereas Ukraines leaders are buying themselves mercedes with tax dollars

And how did you come to this conclusion about comrade Vladimir? And do you think Russian leaders buy their luxuries with their own money?

And I did find alot of information about Ukraine being in a moderately worse state than Russia, it may be misinformation.


 but I have found alot of sources stating that Ukraine is in worse financial state than Russia.
 

Yes Russia has oil and gas, by selling these they have liquid cash and huge current account surplus.Still the GDP growth rate in both countries is similar.
The Per capita income of Russia is higher then that of Ukraine, however although both countries have a gross inequality in division of wealth, such differences are more pronounced in Russia and the gulf is widening.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Very good. I doubted it would be you, thus I threw the opportunity to publically eliminate yourself from the riddle.


I/O

Is that how you win those "debates" at home IO? 


Thomas

[I/O]

Is that how you win those "debates" at home IO? 


Thomas

Throw a woman a rope and she will either use it to tie up the loose ends or she will hang herself, in this case the lady (Lily) was smart enough to use it to tie up the loose ends and hang someone else in the process. Not a bad effort when you think about it.

I/O

[Lily]

Throw a woman a rope and she will either use it to tie up the loose ends or she will hang herself, in this case the lady (Lily) was smart enough to use it to tie up the loose ends and hang someone else in the process. 

I hope no living creature was harmed at this..

[Gator]

Zeus,

Also, it seems the current Russian leader seems to care more about the country than himself whereas Ukraines leaders are buying themselves mercedes with tax dollars.

Now that is a good one.  Many would argue that Putin is a megalomaniac, distancing his country from the West (your culture).  In contrast, Ukraine is gravitating towards the West.

Zeus, throughout your many posts you show a propensity to jump to conclusions.  Also, you seem

sensitive

to anything that counters your quick conclusions.  This is not good if you ever take a trip to the FSU.  

In the FSU you will interact with someone from a different culture with a different native language.  This will create "noise".   You need to relax, have a good time, observe what is happening, and think about what you are feeling.  It can be very difficult to draw correct conclusions, especially if you jump without thinking.  

I have two sons, age 23 and 27. You are in the middle of them and so far show about the same level of deductive reasoning.  A key difference is that they recognize this fact and they are improving.  It is important for you to recognize your shortcomings and compensate for them.

You are blessed with youth.  Enjoy it, but do take your time because your quick decisions so far do not impress me.  BTW, did you ever disclose elsewhere at RWD why you feel that RW may be better than your current dating pool?  In other words, what motivates you to spend a lot of money on this endeavor?

[Gator]

Back to your original question.  I like Lily's "long distance relationship".  You could modify that as "cross-cultural long distance relationship." 

Or you could use the same term I use with my friends and family, "Russian women".