The train came off the tracks

[Jazzyclassy]

I will come out of retirement to comment only because DKMM mentioned me by name up thread.  Truthfully, DK, I don't remember cluebatting you too much in previous threads except to warn you of your own lack of certainty about the engagement.  You were the one who was gong to buy a fake diamond ring,,, "just in case", IIRC.  Any time there is a "just in case" wandering around in your head then you aren't ready for a committed relationship with the woman.  She had somehow communicated a red flag to you that you probably perceived, but didn't recognize.   This is kind of a difficult area to describe, but it happens when one half of a romantic partnership is not fully on board with a 100% commitment.  It's the sort of uneasy thing you feel in your bones, not the thing that you deliberately mull over in your mind, some men call it a "gut instinct", you should pay attention to it. 

Personally, I'd say you should count your blessings here.  It's far better for the train to come off the track at this juncture than down the road after marriage and a couple of kids are in the picture.  My vote is for calling off the K-1, I think this relationship is irretrievable broken.  The multi-photo (60) Facebook web page with no mention of her being engaged tells me she has, at least in her subconscious,  put herself back on the market and written you off.   IMHO, if you do the K-1 with this girl you will more than likely end up being just another footnote in her life history, just like her 1st husband.

'Sup to you man, but I think you are playing with fire here.

that is actually what my hubby told as well  I agree with it , DKMM's behaviour is not understandable sometimes as in the other thread about the fake ring and his trips with her, he was exressing so much of doubt and  uncertainity about their relations himself, and then he was sort of telling that it was also her doubts in them , I mean if you know these factors , just move on ,  say goodbye to each other no matter how painful it is for him maybe even for her (which I extremely doubt), but that is a vital decision , as they are both unsure in each other.

[Gator]

I see this somewhat differently.  JB's reminder of the fake ring focused my thinking (JB, you should not disappear for so long as we need you here).

DKMM, you have never been 100% sure about marriage.   Women have intuitive powers, and it is possible that she has sensed your own ambivalence all the time that you have known her.   And that is naturally restraining her commitment.  In a relationship, two people feed emotionally off of each other, whether positive or negative.

At this critical juncture, when you are about to lose her, you do not seem very upset.  That says your love is not very strong either.

Jazzy observed your woman and I recall that Jazzy wrote how she did not emote.  maybe I am wrong, but your woman sounds like a thinking woman and she probably will not feel crazy love.  Nevertheless, even my Moscow Ice Queen is enthusiastic about the steps we are taking.  And for sure she brags about me to her friends, her friends express her happiness to me and tell me to take care of her, she has photos of us together (but not as many as the she and her two kids), etc.

Is this a case of each of you waiting for the other to make the first move?  It is Russian not to celebrate something before it happens, especially if one is unsure. 

Not 100% sure about marriage and not feeling true love - the two of you are just dating.  This would be reasonable if living in America.  However, she is Russian and laws and long distance logistics necessitate a radical and frequently compressed process for becoming married.  So you have rushed to the engagement before either of you were ready.


What to do?  You can delay the embassy interview, thus delaying the issuance of the visa.  This would allow time for the two of you to solidify your relationship, if that is possible.

But why do that if you yourself are unsure and you are not feeling head over heels in love?   At your age your heart should be racing unless you too do not emote.  I gather your heart is not racing. 

So maybe you need to find another woman, AW or RW, who is outwardly passionate and will smother you with affection.  Personally, such women bother me as I am not the clinging type.  However, a passionate woman may just open your vulnerabilities so that you buy a real ring, and a big one.

[vwrw]

I think this situation, where DKMM has been involved in building up a relationship with a woman who is not ready to commit herself to a marriage and not ready to follow him in America, occurs with an unfortunate constancy in DM’s life due to unconsciously avoiding women with visible potential to be wooed by him.  I remember he had found a wonderful woman who by his words could make a great wife and… he left her.

I think DKMM needs a “woman-challenge” who will provide him opportunity to woo her over and over again. IMHO, he would be bored to death with woman thinking of him and showing her appreciation of him 24 hours daily.

Hmmm, interesting, will DKMM be compromising his preferences about women and choose something “more available to be caught” or will he seek for a miracle to occur?   

[Simoni]

Blinded optimism and wishful thinking.

Need I say more?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But I will, since so many guys are blind.

All guys need to know the old adage...if she is "into you, you will know it."

Don't tolerate indifference.

[AnastassiaAsh]

When a woman thinks much more about 'moving' and how she will survive there than the man himself who she will marry - that's a Red Flag! (in my opinion). What is there to worry about, so much that it turns into a torture, so much that she wants you to remind her every day and encourage her that it will be ok...Why would a woman worry about her life in the US when it is clear even to a monkey that life in the US is much better than in Russia... Of course she doesn't know, but there is no need to know exactly how, and there is no need to 'come to the US and first check it out'. What a bs. This is such an excuse but very common unfortunately.

If she truly loves you, it won't really matter how she will live here. The main thing in her mind should be that she will be with YOU, and BOTH of you will live together and overcome all the difficulties that you will face. But this is like what? English? (she is supposed to know it by then) New environment? (it is more beautiful and cleaner than she has ever seen) Married life? (that's supposed to be desired and to be crazy about) --- So what is there to worry? Especially when there is your HUSBAND by your side! 

Don't take me wrong, please, either. It is ok to talk about where they will live and what she would want to do and things like that, but this should take about 10% of it all, the rest is How blessed they are to have found each other! and How they love each other!

[AnastassiaAsh]

DKMM, the k-1 isn't a trial period. Know your woman before proposing next time.

These are words of gold, as we say.

K1 is a fiancee visa, but shouldn't be really taken as such. Both people involved should be 100% sure about each other and ready to marry. Some get married right there for her family to be able to participate (not legal). But in the mind of two it should already be forever, should already be done. Visa at this point should become a formality that kind of dictates the legal marriage date, but not your promise to each other and God. That should happen BEFORE her arrival here. As a matter of fact I THINK engagement is actually that very promise. That's when in your heart you should know that it is forever. That's when in your heart there should be no turning back...

Also, you have to write a letter of Intention to marry for the visa. How can you say - We are planning to marry within 90 days of her arrival - while in your heart you are not even sure, she is not sure, she says We will see.... I won't understand those who delay legal marriage till 85th day either.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Yeah I know I have options, there is a girl here that are literally calling me as I write this.  Word got out quick.  But I want nothing to do with them, I'm totally sold on the RW if not this girl then another.

Yeah, just stay on course! Very wise decision. 

Personally, I'd say you should count your blessings here.  It's far better for the train to come off the track at this juncture than down the road after marriage and a couple of kids are in the picture.  My vote is for calling off the K-1, I think this relationship is irretrievable broken.  The multi-photo (60) Facebook web page with no mention of her being engaged tells me she has, at least in her subconscious,  put herself back on the market and written you off.   IMHO, if you do the K-1 with this girl you will more than likely end up being just another footnote in her life history, just like her 1st husband.

I agree.

[AnastassiaAsh]

I think getting married in RU helped our relationship, not to mention a quick pregnancy on top of it all.

Wow, BC, you didn't waste your time there!  I am so glad you were married then because there are some Romeos who come, get her pregnant, leave and then start K1 or do not start anything.... it is all upside down in their world. 

[HiTech]

1st I found her facebook site (by her invitation) and she listed herself as single and also had about 60 pictures up, none of which included me.  She even took the pictures from our trips together and left me out.  She made all sorts of excuses for this, first being she didn't want people gossiping and people (male friends) have said really mean things to her about being engaged to me.  Then she came up with other excuses as I pressed her on it, all of which were baloney.  It was clear she did not want to hold herself out to the world as being my future wife.

Does this sound to you like she is completely in love with you. Do you tell all your friends about her?

I believe everything else is irrelevant. Do you believe she is completely in love with you. Go for the K-1. If you believe she is only thinking I care for him, and may grown to love him because we have common goals. How do you think things will end up.

HiTech

[BillyB]

IMHO, he would be bored to death with woman thinking of him and showing her appreciation of him 24 hours daily.

A woman can still love you 24 hrs a day and think about you all the time without being clingy jumping all over you. People that's all over each other like teenagers doesn't necessarily mean they are in love but they could be infatuated and sooner or later they may become bored or irritated with each other. Of course being ice cold could be a bad sign too.

 My fiancee rarely says "I love you" but I can tell she's totally mine based on her tone of voice on the phone and when I'm with her. She's not all over me but she always sits or stands close to me. She doesn't reject me when I grab her had or put my arms around her waist. She's there for me and keeps me happy mentally and physically and through her actions I know she loves me.

DKMM has taken many trips to see his fiancee. Although he jumped the gun on the k-1, he and his fiancee has adequate time compared to most people in this endeavor to make a decision if they're right for each other and one or both of their actions prove they are not... one being the facebook incident. DKMM's fiancee has basically advertised to the World that she is single and there is no man in her life. By DKMM pursuing her further by getting her here on the current K-1 will be nothing more than an act of desperation than an act of love. If DKMM loves this woman any and she doesn't want to live in America, then he should do what's right and let her go instead of convincing her to come to an environment against her will.

[KenC]

DKMM,
I don't think this girl has been square with you from the start.  "Forgetting" about her first marriage was a HUGE RED FLAG.  It showed her propensity to lie to you.  (And yes, it was a lie by omission of the truth)  As others have said, at least it all got shook out now rather than later.  And thank God one of you had the guts to call this farce off now.  I don't think either of you is really ready for marriage any way.  You two have been playing an adult game in a very childish manner.  You may be all "grown up" in a physical sense but you have a long way to go to be a man IMO.

Your original indecisiveness as to whether to buy a real ring or pass off a CZ (and upgrade later if she passes your tests) proves your lack of seriousness from the start.  Regardless, you went to get engaged to her on your first trip and you "succeeded."  Pretty hollow success now, isn't it?  I think that secretively, you are probably relieved that it is over.  Now you will not have to face the consequences of your foolish actions.

DKMM, from all that you have posted here, you are not ready for marriage to anyone.  The "ring thing" is only one example of your immaturity or your lack of ability to be your own man.  The need to have your Momma and brother go to Russia and "OK" things is another example of you not being ready to take charge of your own life.  The fact that you are strongly tied to the family business just shows that you are not ready to leave the comfort of the family nest and gives an indication that you are still your Momma's little boy.

In your post here you indicated that because of this bogus engagement you missed out on other opportunities with other women.  Son, if you were truly in love with this girl, that would be the last thing on your mind right now.  Just because you have access to the funds necessary to make multiple trips to the fsu, doesn't mean you have the maturity to make such an important decision.

When two people are truly in love, nothing else matters.  Not the location of where they have to live.  Not Momma's or big brother's opinion.  A marriage between two people of different cultures takes so much more patience and understanding than a "regular" marriage that I question the ability of many (much older and more mature than you) to have the ability to pull it off.  But two kids with just a silly sense of infatuation will never have a chance.

Date some local girls and if you are so enamoured with RW, look for some RW in your home town.
KenC

[BC]

Wow, BC, you didn't waste your time there!  I am so glad you were married then because there are some Romeos who come, get her pregnant, leave and then start K1 or do not start anything.... it is all upside down in their world. 

Actually we did spend a bit of time together.. Four visits, two of which were extended - about a month each before we married.  Having another child was important for us both.  As much as we tried in RU and elsewhere  , it took only a couple weeks once I carried her over the threshold.

I guess as it relates to this thread we had a common goal and were both quite driven to be together.

Yeah, we were quite 'into' each other.. 'hit n run' was a non-issue.

[vwrw]

Why it is considered to be wise when a man meets and spends sufficient amount of time with family and friends of would-be wife, when he has lived in HER daily routine before he gets committed to her and marriage with her?  Why nobody tells man to become 100% sure he will marry woman before he visits her hometown?

Why then must the woman be 100% sure to marry man without living in HIS daily routine, in HIS environment?

She wants to experience the life with you in America before she makes her mind up. It seems to me you are also curious what it will be like to live with her in your environment. What constitutes a life with a  woman completely dependent on you? Maybe you will not like it?  I think this experience would challenge you and give you new knowledge about yourself. 

[KenC]

Why it is considered to be wise when a man meets and spends sufficient amount of time with family and friends of would-be wife, when he has lived in HER daily routine before he gets committed to her and marriage with her?  Why nobody tells man to become 100% sure he will marry woman before he visits her hometown?

Why then must the woman be 100% sure to marry man without living in HIS daily routine, in HIS environment?

She wants to experience the life with you in America before she makes her mind up. It seems to me you are also curious what it will be like to live with her in your environment. What constitutes a life with a  woman completely dependent on you? Maybe you will not like it?  I think this experience would challenge you and give you new knowledge about yourself. 

VWRW,
That is the deficiency of our visa system.  Unfortunately, it is the one we have to deal with.
KenC

[BC]

She wants to experience the life with you in America before she makes her mind up. It seems to me you are also curious what it will be like to live with her in your environment. What constitutes a life with a  woman completely dependent on you? Maybe you will not like it?  I think this experience would challenge you and give you new knowledge about yourself. 

VW,

In my experience the true tests lie somewhere between 6 months and 2 years living together and has MUCH more to do with the relationship rather than surroundings.  Shorter periods just don't hack it IMHO and can likely end up being quite deceiving.

My wife abhorred pasta for a good 6 months..  today she loves it.

Ever heard of 'geographical cure'?  -works well, but only for a limited time.

[Misha]

Two problems:

• Close to impossible to get a tourist visa for a young, unmarried woman who wants to go visit her male friend;
• Even if she does get the visa, will she really see him in his "environment"? Sadly, the only way that you will know for sure what someone will be like when you marry them is to marry them. The best you can do before marriage is to try to make the best choice possible and to get to know the woman/man enough so you will have a good idea what she/he will be life after marriage. However, there are never any guarantees.

Marriage is hard enough when you are deeply in love with each other. Why risk a bad marriage when clearly neither is truly in love with the other? I guarantee failure whether it is in 2 years, 10 years or 20.

[Simoni]

In my experience the true tests lie somewhere between 6 months and 2 years living together and has MUCH more to do with the relationship rather than surroundings. 

Better be careful with this one.  Certainly say it without the ALLCAPS.

It could get into the chicken and the egg argument, I realize....that a strong relationship overcomes adversity of cultural surroundings changing and that the relationship is the key.  It is....BUT

Yes, it is true that the test comes during the first two years living together in the new country.  BUT the test is definitely mostly about cultural shock, rather than simply developing and continuing the relationship.  That is where 98% of our issues were.  Everything else was fine.

[BC]

Better be careful with this one.  Certainly say it without the ALLCAPS.

It could get into the chicken and the egg argument, I realize....that a strong relationship overcomes adversity of cultural surroundings changing and that the relationship is the key.  It is....BUT

Yes, it is true that the test comes during the first two years living together in the new country.  BUT the test is definitely mostly about cultural shock, rather than simply developing and continuing the relationship.  That is where 98% of our issues were.  Everything else was fine.

I'll disagree.. but love you anyway! 

I've been a wanderer all my life, 7 countries before I graduated HS, not counting the USA.  We lived in some pretty difficult places but it was always our family that kept going..  Home is where you hang your hat, being happy in your home a completely different venture.

Maybe the transition to Europe was easier, making aspects within our relationship more evidenced.. who knows..  Now 5 years into this venture we seem to have hit a 'balance' point.. sorta like that comfortable dent in your couch..

She just walked in my home office with a new variation of stuffed mushrooms.. gotta go make that dent bigger!

Cheers!

[I/O]

Why it is considered to be wise when a man meets and spends sufficient amount of time with family and friends of would-be wife, when he has lived in HER daily routine before he gets committed to her and marriage with her? 

VWRW: If he has lived with her daily routine, IMO it would be somewhat less important to see her among family etc, but then of course he would not have lived in her daily routine would he?

Why nobody tells man to become 100% sure he will marry woman before he visits her hometown?

Because in this caper, at the getting to know stage, men need to travel and it is plain dumb not to give yourself the advantage of every opportunity that exists. Why leave a stone unturned when it is sitting there in front of you waiting to be turned? Laziness might be one explanation.

Why then must the woman be 100% sure to marry man without living in HIS daily routine, in HIS environment?

By and large in a USA situation (Visas as KenC pointed out) there is, as I understand it, a legal paper trail which states that both parties are committed to marriage before she gets that chance. To do otherwise (Simply use a K-1 as a trial marriage) leaves not only a moral deception, but a paper trail of lies. Fiance' visas are not designed as a trial marriage. There is a documented commitment to marriage. When you sign one, it is lie or truth, no halfway.

She wants to experience the life with you in America before she makes her mind up.

If she wants this, then she has gotta find another way unless she is comfortable with lying to the authorities. Damm sure I wouldn't want such a woman.

It seems to me you are also curious what it will be like to live with her in your environment.

Yep...!! In most cases we get to find out at or about the point of marriage. Thats the law. My case, we got lucky, we were able to pressure "The system" enough to get visitor visas. One reason why we succeeded in that might be that we had no history of false paper trails. Everything was done by the book.

What constitutes a life with a  woman completely dependent on you?

Not much sleep and a lot of frustrations for both parties in the early stages. That is why planning is important. Couples need a plan to deal with this IMO because the toll this can take on both should not be underestimated. It's fun but hard work.

Maybe you will not like it?

Believe me, there has been times when I don't like it. Does that mean it makes the marriage any less wonderful? Not in the slightest IME.

I think this experience would challenge you and give you new knowledge about yourself.

Yep, knowledge would be right, the knowledge he had every opportunity to avoid a disaster and continued to not only walk, but run right into it. Great points to add to one's life resume'.

I/O

[Simoni]

I'll disagree.. but love you anyway! 

I've been a wanderer all my life, 7 countries before I graduated HS, not counting the USA.  We lived in some pretty difficult places but it was always our family that kept going..  Home is where you hang your hat, being happy in your home a completely different venture.

Maybe the transition to Europe was easier, making aspects within our relationship more evidenced.. who knows..  Now 5 years into this venture we seem to have hit a 'balance' point.. sorta like that comfortable dent in your couch..

She just walked in my home office with a new variation of stuffed mushrooms.. gotta go make that dent bigger!

Cheers!

And I love you too, BC...
and your beautiful new country!

I suppose it can be different for every couple.  Our relationship was deeply established before she came to the US-- eight long meetings in Ukraine and other countries, and a summer together, plus a one year period of text messages every few minutes, totaling 20,000.

So the adjustment was not to each other, but to the shocking new place called the United States and strange people that call themselves Americans!

And it continues, in this our second year.

[vwrw]

By and large in a USA situation (Visas as KenC pointed out) there is, as I understand it, a legal paper trail which states that both parties are committed to marriage before she gets that chance. To do otherwise (Simply use a K-1 as a trial marriage) leaves not only a moral deception, but a paper trail of lies. Fiance' visas are not designed as a trial marriage. There is a documented commitment to marriage. When you sign one, it is lie or truth, no halfway.

Maybe I am wrong but I think you complicate situation. I think the K-1 visa implies that a woman has an intention to marry her fiancée but she has right to change her decision AND to turn back to FSU. They even ask women in the American embassy – If you change your mind to marry your fiancée what will you do then? 

They do not require or take the letters of intention now.

[Gator]

Letters stating the intention of both the man and woman are required as part of the K-1 petition submission on Day One.

[Gator]

Some of you think a RW should be Decembrist wife and follow her man to Siberia.   Splendid, I admire your commitment.  Yet, everyone is different.

I moved to Florida when my sons were 11 and 7.  The 7-yo woke up the next morning, completely contented with his brand new life.  The most important point is that he had his family around him.  The 11-yo went into a long state of depression and talked of moving back to Pennsylvania and living with friends if we did not return.  This lasted for a long time amid tears, weight gain and loss, bad marks at school, etc. 

Some people are not wired to pull up stakes easily, even if with their love.  The only fault I see is that those women should know this about themselves before signing up with a marriage agency.

While I am a world traveler, if the tables were reversed and to be with my woman I had to live in Moscow … well, you would not find me there a year later.

[vwrw]

Letters stating the intention of both the man and woman are required as part of the K-1 petition submission on Day One.

I am sorry , I expressed my thought incorrectly. I wanted to say - if memory does not fail me there is no “letters of intentions” in the list of document that woman is required to have for her interview. For the first interview I had no letters of intention at all. For the second interview I had them but I was not asked to present them.

[Gator]

KenC,

you indicated that because of this bogus engagement you missed out on other opportunities with other women.  Son, if you were truly in love with this girl, that would be the last thing on your mind right now.

Agree 100%.  When in love, true love, a man does not think about other women.  And one does not write “I'm totally sold on the RW if not this girl then another” on the eve of parting with one’s fiancée.

 

The "ring thing" is only one example of your immaturity or your lack of ability to be your own man.

To me it reflects more that he did not trust the woman or trust her love.  He had to be sending other signals of mistrust that a woman can perceive.

Now that I have agreed with you KenC, let us take some examples where you went too far IMO.  We do not know the story to make such conclusions.

The need to have your Momma and brother go to Russia and "OK" things is another example of you not being ready to take charge of your own life.

This helped to build the relationship IMO.  A long time ago, I took my younger son to Moscow to live with his future family.  He liked them and they were fond of him – the kids still ask about him.   My older son never had the experience and he still harbors some doubts.

There is nothing wrong with having a close family.  I think it is glorious.  Consulting with your family is very wise because no matter how smart one head is, two heads are smarter than one. 

The fact that you are strongly tied to the family business just shows that you are not ready to leave the comfort of the family nest and gives an indication that you are still your Momma's little boy.

Perhaps he likes the business.  Many successful businesses have been turned over to the children when they are ready, and frequently the children have made the business even more successful.  Family farms were passed on that way for generations.