Together only 3 months, and she wants to go home...

[Zadan]

For those plane tickets to be bought in haste without proper diagnosis, either you or both of you are not valuing the marriage properly or you really felt it was the end. Of course it's all your fault for not giving her enough attention in which you will correct the situation I'm sure but hope the "packed bags" tests come to an end because that game will get old quick.

Billy,
I think Jet's prior comments pretty much fit the situation to a T. I didn't want to fight with her anymore and simply bowed her to wishes. I don't think anyone is to blame, really, nor is it useful to assign any. She didn't understand me, and I didn't understand her. In any case the rollercoaster ride is over and I'm pretty smitten to simply be smoothe sailing now.

[Turboguy]

Zadan,  I can relate to a lot of what you have said here since we are very close to the same time with our women being here.   I also go through a lot of the turn out the lights etc.  Fortunatly my gal has been pretty happy and just been a real trooper but I can see how easy it would be for it to go the way it did for you and I am glad to hear it is working out.  I hope it is smooth sailing from here on.

P/G, thanks!

[Daveman]

...but hope the "packed bags" tests come to an end because that game will get old quick.

I agree there.. it would get old if repeated time and time again... but one thing is fairly certain - If I were in that situation, I doubt very seriously if I would have had sense enough to figure out the "packed bags test" without hearing about it on this board...  If she was emphatic about "everything here sucks, I hate it, I want to go back, blah blah blah", I would have made the classic blunder of putting her persnickety self on the plane and sending her back, and probably thought I had just saved myself years of nagging misery.  Lot's of good stuff here from those who've packed the bags before us.

Of course, now we uninitiated also learn there's the new cheating round about to look forward to as well. Now isn't that special.... logging in memory banks.

[Zadan]

...
I do think that it is part of the nature of some RW to be critical and to make their man into the kind of guy they want him to be.  The comments that Zadan made about  "why do you always leave the lights on? .... I told you to move your shoes, they block the door!! I told you to hang up your coat!!! ...I think you can read books by yourself without needing a wife!!" sound like my life exactly.   The only difference is I laugh about it and turn out the light or put my coat where it belongs.   One of these days she may get me trained but you know what they say about teaching an old dog new tricks.   Once in a while I get silently perturbed by it but mostly I just find it enjoyable and part of her wanting a neat, organized house.    If it does bug me a bit ever I just think about all the sacrifices she is making for me and think how happy I am she is here.
...

I thought I was actually pretty good at remembering to keep things in order. Recently I put some laundry away and I've now been made aware that I don't know how to fold clothes properly (there is such a thing?!). Learn something new every day I guess.

Anyway, none of that is a real issue. As it sometimes happens, someone will start to externalize and project something that's bothering them on something (or someone) else unrelated... The real problem isn't that a light was left a light on--it's something else.  Communication is key of course, but what do you do if they won't tell you what's bothering them? Moreso if they think you should simply just know--because it's natural afterall etc.  

....
Of course, now we uninitiated also learn there's the new cheating round about to look forward to as well. Now isn't that special.... logging in memory banks.

That's disturbing.

[jb]

Of course, now we uninitiated also learn there's the new cheating round about to look forward to as well. Now isn't that special....

I missed that,,, where did origin of that quote come from?

[LiveFromUkraine]

I missed that,,, where did origin of that quote come from?

I think it came from Jet's post in this thread.


Thomas

[Jet]

I think it came from Jet's post in this thread.


Thomas

Alright, before another sh!tstorm erupts, let me clarify my prior statement!
Not all Russian women have had the experience of being cheated on by an ex-husband or having been a mistress, but it is common enough for it to have become a stereotype. This roguish behavior (to have some hot young chick on the side) by married Russian men is prevalent and largely accepted behavior in FSU society. IMHO this is the root of the famous RW jealousy and protectiveness in matters regarding their marriage. The FSU societal standard is "don't ask, don't tell" a scenario that most women deplore but understand as part of the rules of Eastern culture. They don't often drop/erase/disregard those rules immediately after crossing the western boarder.

[Jet]

I thought I was actually pretty good at remembering to keep things in order. Recently I put some laundry away and I've now been made aware that I don't know how to fold clothes properly (there is such a thing?!). Learn something new every day I guess.

Men's work <-|-> Women's work
Laundry is not men's work (My wife's words, not mine)

[Daveman]

That's disturbing.

Why, yes it is...     but look on the bright side Zadan,  you have one grand (disturbing) adventure out of the way and one to go... some of us still have two!  But so much better to not be blindsided..

[chivo]

I think I understand your situation, you're doing the right thing in trying to avoid a confrontation and follow your wife's wishes so as not to minimalize the importance of HER wishes - a good solid Western position, backed up by everything you ever learned in western society. Problem is...she hasn't ever been exposed to western society before, she plays by the rules of Eastern society, so your position looks ridiculous to her.

So many people forget this VERY important point when trying to deal with a cross cultural marriage, much less dealing with Russians in general.

Of course you're most likely to try a solve the problem as you're accustomed, which in many cases will be totally misinterpreted. Think of it as normal miscommunication between the sexes squared

Great point Jet, one that I'm sure will get lost in the shuffle of opinions posted here on the how, when, where, and why in dealing with the Slavic culture.

So many times I've seen opinions expressed (wrongly) here that come from a western point of view, or I see someone quick to form an opinion from the same point.

Its easy to see why your relationship is as strong as it seems for as long as its been. Frankly, you get it!!!

chivo

[chivo]

Alright, before another sh!tstorm erupts, let me clarify my prior statement!
Not all Russian women have had the experience of being cheated on by an ex-husband or having been a mistress, but it is common enough for it to have become a stereotype. This roguish behavior (to have some hot young chick on the side) by married Russian men is prevalent and largely accepted behavior in FSU society. IMHO this is the root of the famous RW jealousy and protectiveness in matters regarding their marriage. The FSU societal standard is "don't ask, don't tell" a scenario that most women deplore but understand as part of the rules of Eastern culture. They don't often drop/erase/disregard those rules immediately after crossing the western boarder.

Another spot on observation generally speaking. I can't tell you how often I have to deal, or have dealt with this here. While I've dealt with it on a certain level in America, you have no idea how different it plays out here.

reassure, reassure, and more reassurance.

the mentality will eventually subside with/by actions on your part, but imagine being in a strange land, dependant on a man who's interactions are in direct conflict with what you're accustomed to, and having a vivid RW imagination.

Patience and strength will be tested to the bone. Good luck.

chivo 

[Markus]

Zodan,

I'm really glad that it's working out for you. But, according to William the 3rd, he's sitting back ready to give you advice about the divorce. He doesn't personally know much about RW relationships, but he's an expert on other people's situation. I get weary reading his advice. It's usually about law, and I'm sure he's pretty good at it. But, his advice to you is like grabbing flies in the air. What does it mean?

I can tell you Zodan that her attitude is 99% based upon who you are. Oh really you say?  So far, the responses seem to have come from single men trying to justify you. Not all the opinions are from single guys, but, sir, your wife's behavior yesterday, today, and tomorrow will be based upon YOU!  You should try to learn that fact because it will make your life easier. Do you not know that those same requests that annoy you will not stop? That's who she is. Consider the snow and mud she walks through in her life and try to draw a conclusion why your shoes are dirty to her. If I walk in the house and forget to take off my shoes, I'm reminded quickly to take off my shoes. I don't get offended, I love it. I just take off my shoes. It's not that difficult. How about washing your hands, do you get that? If so, do you know why? There's a good reason but try and figure it out. There are many, many more things that you will learn, because THAT'S WHO SHE IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Learn that dude or else you will need William the third.

You cannot change her. What will happen is you will change. You will move your shoes and you will do what she says. Some people think that FSUW are pushovers, but FSUW, although very feminine, will change you to the good. Just give in to it. It's much easier, and, in my opinioin, is a requirement for a successful marriage. If you know the saying, "He's pussy whooped", you have to be that way. But, men who use that saying are either divorced or can't find a women. Just ask the married men.

Culture Shock: What is it? I think it's a result of the man not giving his wife the attention she needs. When your wife says "move your shoes" and you do it, your'e doing the right thing. Now, a man, even though he has to work, should give up himself, give up what he wants to do, and his total time and desires should be directed to her. It's all about HER. Everything is HER. Your free time is about HER! HER! HER! After all, you did take the time and effort to go through this process, now prove it. IT'S ALL ABOUT HER! My wife never experienced this fallacy called "Culture Shock" because I realized my life is all about HER! I made a big effort to make sure my wife had all my attention. 

Now later, you can begin to gradually change things. But, when I come home from work, I still take off my shoes, change my clothes, and wash my hands. This process works wonders for me.

Mark

[William3rd]

Zodan,

I'm really glad that it's working out for you. But, according to William the 3rd, he's sitting back ready to give you advice about the divorce. He doesn't personally know much about RW relationships, but he's an expert on other people's situation. I get weary reading his advice. It's usually about law, and I'm sure he's pretty good at it. But, his advice to you is like grabbing flies in the air. What does it mean?

I can tell you Zodan that her attitude is 99% based upon who you are. Oh really you say?  So far, the responses seem to have come from single men trying to justify you. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Learn that dude or else you will need William the third.

Mark

I had you off ignore and find that you continue to follow me around posting insults and innuendos.

I have handled over 3000 fiancee visas in 15 years, had several Russian/Ukrainian gf (and even sent one home in 10 years) , made 85 trips to 6 former FSU countries working with agencies and you have the nerve to post like you just did? Mr Hop on a Plane and Get ONE Without Any English, Then Pray.

I watched the vast majority of these relationships explode and conducted a hell of a lot of postmortems. Handled a lot of disso cases for old clients including VAWA claims.

FYI, Mr One Weak Blunder- Attorneys can only practice divorce law in states that they are licensed in and 50 states for immigration.

You are not worth my time any further. . . . other than coming on line when your wife is AWOL and talking smack, what exactly do you have to offer?

[LiveFromUkraine]

I had you off ignore and find that you continue to follow me around posting insults and innuendos.

I have handled over 3000 fiancee visas in 15 years, had several Russian/Ukrainian gf (and even sent one home in 10 years) , made 85 trips to 6 former FSU countries working with agencies and you have the nerve to post like you just did? Mr Hop on a Plane and Get ONE Without Any English, Then Pray.

I watched the vast majority of these relationships explode and conducted a hell of a lot of postmortems. Handled a lot of disso cases for old clients including VAWA claims.

FYI, Mr One Weak Blunder- Attorneys can only practice divorce law in states that they are licensed in and 50 states for immigration.

You are not worth my time any further. . . . other than coming on line when your wife is AWOL and talking smack, what exactly do you have to offer?

The only thing he had to offer was saying it is "Ok" to being a yes man err.. I mean yes woman. Most of his post was complete garbage imo.  It is ok to accept who she is but it is up to us to change?  WTF!!!. 

Everyone changes to make a marriage work otherwise there will be nothing but bad feelings and seperation.


BTW, I am married and it didn't happen in one week which could be OWW's problem.  He might not have to be a yes woman kind of guy if he spent more time with his wife BEFORE marrying her.  Of course I am making this statement based on his username.



Thomas

[Jet]

Zodan,

I'm really glad that it's working out for you. But, according to William the 3rd, he's sitting back ready to give you advice about the divorce. He doesn't personally know much about RW relationships, but he's an expert on other people's situation.

I think you'd do well to check your facts before suggesting someone else "doesn't personally know much about RW relationships". From the evidence I've seen, he knows quite a bit more than you do.

I can tell you Zodan that her attitude is 99% based upon who you are. Oh really you say?

Oh really? I say  I'll concede that her reactions will usually be based on your actions/inactions, but that's about as far as it goes.

Do you not know that those same requests that annoy you will not stop? That's who she is.

WTF? Maybe that's who your wife is.

You cannot change her. What will happen is you will change. You will move your shoes and you will do what she says. Some people think that FSUW are pushovers, but FSUW, although very feminine, will change you to the good. Just give in to it. It's much easier, and, in my opinioin, is a requirement for a successful marriage.

If you know the saying, "He's pussy whooped", you have to be that way. But, men who use that saying are either divorced or can't find a women. Just ask the married men.

Allow me to reiterate,  WTF? Maybe that's who your wife is.

Culture Shock: What is it? I think it's a result of the man not giving his wife the attention she needs. When your wife says "move your shoes" and you do it, your'e doing the right thing. Now, a man, even though he has to work, should give up himself, give up what he wants to do, and his total time and desires should be directed to her. It's all about HER. Everything is HER. Your free time is about HER! HER! HER! After all, you did take the time and effort to go through this process, now prove it. IT'S ALL ABOUT HER! My wife never experienced this fallacy called "Culture Shock" because I realized my life is all about HER! I made a big effort to make sure my wife had all my attention. 

Boolsh!t pure and simple! Culture shock has absolutely *zero* to do with you (or me) moving the shoes. Directing ALL your attention to her, to the detriment of your other pre-existing commitments, is to do so at your own peril. As in all areas of life, one must learn to strike a balance. Maybe you should go read the postings of AJ, ScottInCrimea, Chivo and a host of others (male and female) regarding their own personal experiences with Culture Shock when they moved abroad, before dismissing it as a "fallacy".

[LiveFromUkraine]

Boolsh!t pure and simple! Culture shock has absolutely *zero* to do with you (or me) moving the shoes. Directing ALL your attention to her, to the detriment of your other pre-existing commitments, is to do so at your own peril. As in all areas of life, one must learn to strike a balance. Maybe you should go read the postings of AJ, ScottInCrimea, Chivo and a host of others (male and female) regarding their own personal experiences with Culture Shock when they moved abroad, before dismissing it as a "fallacy".

After living in Ukraine for nearly one year now, culture shock is very real.  Jet, he is probably not taking his own advice and commenting on things he doesn't know anything about.



Thomas

[William3rd]

This is like the third time I see him posting smack.

Live and let live, Blunder.

Post as you will but don't bother posting my name or casting aspersions based on your minimal knowledge.

Its a big sand box-go play at your end. And BTW- I believe that my last post to him is that he needs to work on that relationship more because it is NOT business as usual when you marry a foreign national.

As to the culture shock issue- it is the same as going there. LFU- can you list a few small things for an example of culture shock.

[LiveFromUkraine]

As to the culture shock issue- it is the same as going there. LFU- can you list a few small things for an example of culture shock.

I can comment a little on the culture shock William.

I am very glad I had the experiences here.  It has been very tough and gives me a great appreciation for people that have done this type of migration.  This is not the first country I lived in beside America.  I lived and visited several countries and plan on a lot more.  This has been the hardest time in any country.  I used to think it was more of a language problem that made it more difficult but then realized that there was a big cultural difference besides the language barriers.

During the first couple of months things were not too bad at all.   I was just happy to finally be having a real relationship with my now wife instead of talking on the phone or msn.  After about the third month it started to hit me a little more strongly that I was not as independent as I had always been.  For example, I never had to worry about ordering food at a restaurant, asking for help at a grocery store, or even answering the front door to my flat like here.  Living here it was extremely hard since I didn’t speak Russian.  I lost my whole independence the way I saw it.

I am a very social person by nature.  I love meeting new people and just having conversations with anyone.  That was taken away from me when I moved here.  I can see others having the same problem even if they speak the same language.  When I returned from home, after living in Australia for close to 4 years, I found I didn’t have much in common with my friends and family.  It took awhile to work my way back into life at home.  This is another aspect that people will need to take notice of.  When the woman goes back they will find their friends have moved on or they won’t be as close as they once were.  Life experiences changes people and sometimes it makes the common things that bind two people disappear.

I can understand better what some of these women have been through.  I can understand the anger, depression, the so-called nagging, the mood swings.  There is no support group.  The only person you can rely on is your spouse.  I had traveled quite a bit and would think it was even harder for people that haven’t.   This has been one hell of an experience and I think I am a better man for it.  I appreciate a lot of things now that I may not have noticed.  I would also say that my wife and I are even closer because of the things we have been through together.  I am glad I went through it to be able to help my wife when the time comes for her to move.

Just imagine starting a new life, not knowing anyone, everything you know is completely backwards and the only person you have is your spouse.  Your wife isn’t nagging at you because of shoes, she wants to feel love and comfort from the only person she has. She wants to know she made the right decision and quite possibly to stop you from leaving your dirty shoes in the middle of the floor.   




Thomas

[catzenmouse]

When I returned from home, after living in Australia for close to 4 years, I found I didn’t have much in common with my friends and family.  It took awhile to work my way back into life at home.  This is another aspect that people will need to take notice of.  When the woman goes back they will find their friends have moved on or they won’t be as close as they once were.  Life experiences changes people and sometimes it makes the common things that bind two people disappear.

Excellent Post Thomas!

 Last Summer when Elena went back to visit family she experienced this first hand. Before we had been together and this was her first time going back without me and she found that almost everyone treated her differently than they had before. It was a real shocker to her and she could really tell who were her friends for life and who were just convenience friends in her past life.

Ken

[LiveFromUkraine]

Excellent Post Thomas!

 Last Summer when Elena went back to visit family she experienced this first hand. Before we had been together and this was her first time going back without me and she found that almost everyone treated her differently than they had before. It was a real shocker to her and she could really tell who were her friends for life and who were just convenience friends in her past life.

Ken

Thanks Ken.

It is unfortunate that Elena had to go through that.  I do think it is common, even more so in FSU.  I see a lot of jealousy from Sveta's so called friends when she talks about our plans.  They tend to put her down and hope for the worst. 

I also know I am growing apart from several friends that I have known since high school.  Those friendships will never end fully but our lives have gone down different paths.



Thomas

[Misha]

I posted this link on another thread, and I am posting it again as it provided an excellent description of the various stages of culture shock and the problems you may face when going back "home" after an extended period living in another country: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2848359.

[Simoni]

I see a lot of jealousy from Sveta's so called friends when she talks about our plans.  They tend to put her down and hope for the worst. 
Thomas

Marina is experiencing the same thing from her former "friends."  They put her down. They put me down (and have never met me).  She sees these friends as self-centered.  In fact, she now calls them "my bitches."

After the bus accident, one "friend" came over at 9 p.m. and complained about her personal life and boy friend problems for three hours.  Even though Marina was hurting and wanted to go to sleep.  Some friend.

Having said that, Marina does have a couple of really nice and wonderful friends.  They have spent time together with the two of us and are happy for her.

The truth is that fsu girls get double culture shock. 

Here, and then there, when they return home.

[Photo Guy]

How is her recovery going?

[Simoni]

She is doing well; thanks for asking.  See thread

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6481.0

[groovlstk]

It is unfortunate that Elena had to go through that.  I do think it is common, even more so in FSU.  I see a lot of jealousy from Sveta's so called friends when she talks about our plans.  They tend to put her down and hope for the worst. 

My wife and I have also had to deal with this. One thing I've noticed about many Russian and Ukrainian people is that they are among the most supportive, sympathetic people when you experience a tragedy or when things are not going well in your life. Yet these same people will turn on you in shocking suddenness should you experience good fortune.