Scam 101 revisted

[acrzybear]

For example I am sure that aczry is good at his work, too, but can we blame him for not receiving tons of Christmas cards from his clients, their wives and their children?!Can we put the same criteria here?!

Actually I am quite good at my job but I don't get my satisfaction from letters and such but when I arrest a person a Judge sentences them to prison and they are not able to hurt others or steal-that's where I get my satisfaction.

  For some reason I don't like bullies, liars or thiefs thieves (couldn't help myself )

[catzenmouse]

Actually I am quite good at my job but I don't get my satisfaction from letters and such but when I arrest a person a Judge sentences them to prison and they are not able to hurt others or steal-that's where I get my satisfaction.

  For some reason I don't like bullies, liars or thiefs thieves (couldn't help myself )

Do you get letters from the wifes of thiefs?

[SANDRO43]

your inner beauty is like a ship setting out to sea with all sails full and a strong wind at your aft.

Makkin, you're waxing lyrical . Though I would have said "a strong wind astern" or, better yet, "a strong wind from your quarter", a sailing ship's best point (broad reach) .

[Christian]

I agree.

And as for Jack's words it's fun to hear that this man who considers himself to be a top specialist in everything concerning the FSU women and FSU men doesn't know about the Russian saying that the real man should be a little more handsome than a monkey, and it's not an offence at all, but it's a really poor taste to say the woman about how often she looks in the mirror....

I agree with you Serebro here.  Mr. Bogart and Princess Grace certainly are not your typical couple by today's standards.  In reality, however, they are every bit the norm.  The Russian saying holds true.  A women will fall for a man who loves her and is faithful and attentive to her over all other suitors.

Those who chide Jazzy are only showing the shallowness of their understanding and I don't mean to highlight Jack at all.

Christian

[mspanky]

    A women will fall for a man who loves her and is faithful and attentive to her over all other suitors.



Christian

  Oh how I wish this were true Christian. But we all know love has no logic and both men and women are illogical with love. as we've all seen men treat RW and other women with love,respect and faithfulness. Yet on her part there was no chemistry.  If this saying were true life and romance would be very simple. But we've all heard many times a woman describing a man who is very good to her, but  for some reason she's not attracted to him or wants something else. We've seen these stories play out in real life and all over these message boards. How many really great guys are going for wife #2 or even 3? Great guys who follwed all the rules, yet the women left for greener pastures anyway.

 

[Makkin]

Hi,

  Yes Sandro...Thank You and twas what I meant..lol

[Jack]

serebro I had discussed with you in my previous e-mail that I did not wish for this dialogue to be a one-way street with me doing all the answering of questions. I mentioned if I was going to answer your questions would you please be good enough to answer mine.  serebro this will be my last e-mail to you in this topic if you do not offer me the same courtesy I am extending to you by answering your questions.

I will answer questions from your last e-mail after I address, again, my previous questions to you.




Question 1.
Please look below at a previous statement you made to me.

I work as a rialtor but I didn't know that I can date all my clients and hug them and post our pictures online saying that there's no need for my boy friend to be jealous as it's only business...

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I will repeat again that I do not know what you are trying to say here and I am asking you for clarification.  We are both in agreement that I do not understand nothing and can't read and write correctly.

With this understanding can you please explain your statement above and how you are relating it to me in this thread?





Question 2.
You made the following comment,..

   I guess it's because you promised all the girls you dated to marry them but you didn't so they still hate you. 

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I wrote you that "You are making a completely unfounded and incorrect statement and as such would like you to please back-up your statement with some facts."

Your reply to this was

  Dare you trying to hurt my "silver" feelings on purpose?!
answering your question-no, it was made as my remark to your
singular form of "wife"

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I am going to repeat this phrase,..WHAT!     Do I understand correctly your answer to my question "You are making a completely unfounded and incorrect statement and as such would like you to please back-up your statement with some facts"  is  " it was made as my remark to your singular form of "wife" ?

If that is not the correct answer to my question can you please tell me what is your answer to question 2. 

Question 2 is please back-up your statement with some facts


Question 3.   Would you give me your definition of the word sex tourist. 

Question 4.  Do you know of Russian men who date Russian women and who are not interested in getting married?

Question 5.  If the answer to question 4 is yes, do you think Russian men who date women, but are not interested in marriage at this time in there life, are bad men?

Question 6. Do you think Russian women, who have no interest in marriage at the time, who date men are bad women?

Question 7. Do you feel there is any difference between an American man and Russian man who date women and these men do not have interest in marriage at the time they are dating?

Question 8. Do you feel there is any difference between an American woman and Russian woman who date men and these women do not have interest in marriage at the time they are dating?

Question 9.  Do you feel a Russian woman telling a man he should take a look in the mirror is in poor taste.

Question 10. Do you feel a Russian man telling a woman she should take a look in the mirror is in poor taste?

Question 11. Do you think an American man telling a Russian women she should take a look in the mirror is in poor taste?


Question 12.  serebro you wrote,...."Does this make you any better than the man who comes to date and doesn't offer one of his clients at the moment when he escapes?!"

Can I ask you, again, could you please explain what you are saying or what you were trying to say with this statement.  You have a very bad problem with just writing things that make absolutely no sense. I hope you will take the time to explain what you mean with this statement?

Question 13. (two part question)   Do you know of Russian women who ask the man to marry her?   Would you ask a man you loved very much to marry you?

Question 14.   serebro if you are married, how many men did you meet/date before you met your husband?






Answer's and comments to your last post.

What had you done before you started your RU-UA-USA business, Jack?! 

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serebro I am doing the same thing today that I was doing before I started helping men to meet "some" of the most wonderful Russian/Ukraine women in the world, and that would be the telecommunications industry.  I own a telephone company in Dallas which serves much of North Texas. 

You tried to mention the number of Christmas cards you receive from your clients as a mark of your being loved by them,

[/size]



Again, more prevaricated statements by you serebro.  NO WHERE did I ever say anything to the effect that the receiving of Christmas cards was a form of love being shown.  Just more of your bs.

To get involved emotionally with most of my clients only means I care for them and for the good results they are hoping for in there pursuit for a Russian bride. 

it is the mark of your business, of any business connected with relationships,that's all, not the mark of love.

[/size]



HEYYYY WHO said anything about it being the mark of love?   It was YOU, not me.  You made this up.  I did not say that the receiving of Christmas cards was my clients indicating they love me, or was the mark of love, these were MORE of YOUR obtuse statements that you make.

serebro in America, and other places of the world, many people send Christmas cards to family members and friends. Many of the clients I have helped to get married consider me a friend, a friend of the family. It just so happens I am lucky enough to make there Christmas list. 

My business sent out 400 Christmas cards. None of these were to family members, or friends **, these were sent to people who do business with us. Our company also received some 300 to 325 Christmas cards this year and NONE of those companies were sending cards as a mark of love but mostly as a sign of appreciation for a job well done during the preceding year. 

(** There are a few people who we do business with that I do consider as friends)

For example I am sure that aczry is good at his work, too, but can we blame him for not receiving tons of Christmas cards from his clients, their wives and their children?!Can we put the same criteria here?! 

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serebro WHO is trying to "put the same criteria here".  I think it is only you.

Between acrzybear  (NOT aczry as you have indicated, you have changed and shortened his nickname and Mod3 warned everyone against this. I guess your just lucky you were not warned)  and I it has been mentioned that we have a distinct difference in our business's.  No one, other than you serebro, has mentioned anything about trying to apply the same criteria between our business's.


I think this would be a good Question number 15, a two part question.   15a. Who blamed acrzybear for not receiving tons of Christmas Cards as you are eluding to?    15b.  Who mentioned anything about trying to indicate our two business's have the same criteria.

I am beginning to wonder serebro where some of your statements come from and how they are part of any of the previous discussions/questions.   

as for rialtor-I have seen that word mentioned by you and your 1000+messages-friends on RWD, so I tried to make it easier for you to understand as you seem to write the words down as you hear them

[/size]



wow, this is un-believable.   Ok serebro,  Question number 16.   Please show me ONE time I have ever mentioned the word rialtor as you are indicating.   

serebro how much thought do you put into what you write?  Just curious.

Jazzy's remark was quite logical from the RW point of view..

[/size]



serebro you are of course entitled to your opinions and no one can take those away from you. My opinion as to jazzy's remarks are that most of her expressed opinions and statements are nothing like most RW I know. Thank God for that!

And yes, I know you are a Russian woman and I do not know Russian women nearly as well as you.

What I will say serebro is I have been lucky enough to have personally meet a few thousand Russian and Ukraine ladies.

I read your comments about Russian women and the Russian women you know.  All I can say serebro is of the majority of good and sincere Russian women I know, I only know of one other Russian woman who has a lot of your same views, and that Russian woman is jazzy.

  As you date girls in the FSU and not in the USA this makes me think that the women you date belong to one of the categories mentioned above, and as you date them for the process of dating( and you HONESTLY tell them about it) your women must belong either to the second category(of prostitutes sleeping with men for money) or to the third category(women who like going out with model-looking boys)....

[/size]




ahhh, the serebro typical statement.   serebro I date good Russian women. I do not date whores, I do not go to Russia or Ukraine to seek prostitutes.  And if I ever run across any man who indicates such to me I tell him there are two other tour agencies he can sign-up for where he can get this, but not my tour company.  I also say to this man why not save himself $5000 and just find a local whore in his own city, we don't need his type in the FSU.  Men do not need to travel half way across the world just to have sex with some whores, they can do this in the cities they live and save thousands of dollars.

By many of your statements serebro you seem to have a real enamor with prostitutes and bad women.  I do not know where you live in Russia but if I were to guess I would think maybe you live in Moscow where prostitution and escorts run wild, where it is as much a part of the cities culture as a tour to Red Square. Your experience of all the Russian women you know, which is substantially different from what I see and have experienced, I feel with all the feelings you have about bad Russian women, all the statements you make about whores and bad girls, I feel you must come from Moscow where this is the everyday way of life.

I have seen a lot of Russia and Ukraine and there is NO other city that even comes close to the amount of whores, the number of escorts, working Moscow. It is really un-believable.  If you think what you see in Moscow is typical throughout western Russia or Ukraine I can assure you it is not.  if you are from Moscow you see foreigner after foreigner coming to Moscow for sex, or to find bad girls.  Yea, I think if I were a good Russia woman this stigma being attached to Moscow would have me concerned as well.   

I am so happy that most all the bad I see in Moscow regarding all the prostitutes and escorts is mostly in Moscow. No other city can even come close.  You know serebro there is a good reason why I do not bring men to Moscow for tours or to meet Moscow women. I'll let you figure out the reason on your own.

The ladies I date serebro, the ladies our clients meet serebro, are good women.  Of course Russia and Ukraine have scammers but I am not talking about the scammers as the women are guys are seeing. Most scammers are identified long before a meeting is attempted to be arranged and as such the man does not meet the scammer.  And yes, even with what we think is a good net, some of our guys do meet scammers as well and we don't know this until after the first meeting where she is expecting to be taken shopping. This is not the type wife our guys are looking for.

I am really getting a bit feed up with your statements you are making that have absolutely no foundations.  Your statement about the type ladies you think I date,... " your women must belong either to the second category(of prostitutes sleeping with men for money) or to the third category (women who like going out with model-looking boys)"....    is a perfect example of the BS that I see you spewing out.  Absolutely no basis for so much of what you write.  You are completely clueless and I think it's becoming apparent to many.



serebro you wrote this about me,...."You date women and when they ask to marry them you say them you are a bad man and you are poor and you offer them a "better variant"-one of your clients."....

I responded this was an outright lie on your part. Your reply to me was the following,

I am not writing anything extraodinary, my questions can be explained logically.

[/size]



serebro you ARE writing things extraordinary when you write,......



You date women and when they ask to marry them you say them you are a bad man and you are poor and you offer them a "better variant"-one of your clients.

your women must belong either to the second category(of prostitutes sleeping with men for money) or to the third category(women who like going out with model-looking boys)

If I were you I would consider marrying your gf before you can understand something

you mean you are a sexual tourist?!

You tried to mention the number of Christmas cards you receive from your clients as a mark of your being loved by them

Jack, it looks like you understand nothing

I guess it's because you promised all the girls you dated to marry them but you didn't so they still hate you.

I work as a rialtor but I didn't know that I can date all my clients

but it looks like men like you don't want to marry them




Yes, serebro, please explain how your questions (statements) can be explained logically?

No, those were the variants of what you could say to your ex gfs at the moment when you explain them that you aren't going to marry them.It doesn't mean it's so, but what excuses do you make?! 

[/size]




ahhhhh, I see (I think) . So when you wrote      ",...."You date women and when they ask to to marry them you say them you are a bad man and you are poor and you offer them a "better variant"-one of your clients."....  this was a mistake on your part. 

What you are now saying, if I am correct, and please correct me if I am in-correct, is that when you made the statement ",...."You date women and when they ask to to marry them you say them you are a bad man and you are poor and you offer them a "better variant"-one of your clients."....   what you meant to say was this was really a variant as to what I could say, not that I did say, but what I could say at the moment a girlfriend ask me to marry her.    Well serebro, hate to bust your fantasy world bubble it looks like you live or dream in, but unlike the Russian women that you know,  of the Russian women I have met and know, very few will ask a man to marry them. This is something the man is expected to do, not the Russian women.
 
serebro, I don't have to make any excuses to the women I date.  When you are a man and dating ladies, these ladies are also dating other men.  I know, I know, you do not see that in ANY of the Russian women you know.   Of the women I date, and the women that Russian men date, I (they) know at any time a lady can find a man she really likes and she will stop dating other men to show this man how much she cares for him, that she is serious about him.  I see this everyday so the BS your writing, although someone else might believe you, I ain't buying it.  If all goes well this woman might get married to this man.   It is WHY most men I have worked with date, see, meet, more than one woman, they are looking for someone special.   It is WHY Russian/Ukraine women date, meet, see, more than one man, they are trying to find that one special man.  For most these men and women serebro the perfect man or woman does not simply appear on the first meeting.  It does happen with a few men and women but this is the exception, not the norm.

I know serebro from writing you over the last two days that you know of NO good Russian women who are dating.  I know of many, many good Ukraine and Russian women who are dating and most, not all, but most are dating many men in hopes of finding a good man, a man who they would like to marry.  Do you understand that serebro, dating in hopes of finding a good man serebro.

  Since the beginning of the New Year's celebration I have seen at least 15 "panical" threads like "I am 19/22/24, he is 20/24/30, we have been dating for 3months/6 months/1 year/5 years and we have 2 children, I had hoped that he would propose during the NY celebration but he presented a bag/computer game/perfume/bracelet instead.What is he waiting for?!"....What a pity you couldn't come and explain them that the men just think that these women enjoy the process of dating.

[/size]




serebro my questions would be why is the 19 year old looking to get married?  Most Russian and Ukraine 19 year old girls I know are not serious about getting married. Most are going to school and enjoying life, enjoying be young and all that goes with that.  I guess she must not be going to a University, or maybe she is a village girl.  In this case maybe the Russian man she is dating is just using her. She is un-educated, he does not see his future as living in the village all his life, maybe this 20 year old boy is just using the 19 year old girl.

As far as the 22 year old who has been dating for six months to a year and her boyfriend presented her with a computer game, I think this man is probably not quite ready for marriage. One of those Russian guys I told you about earlier who was just dating because he wasn't ready to accept the responsibility of supporting a family.

For the 24 year old dating the 30 year old for 5 years and they have two kid's and he still has not married her I would say "Lady, get wise. Two children, been together five years and he has not asked you to marry him?"   I think it's time she try to find a man who will marry her.  At 24 she is still young and maybe still quite attractive.  Having two children is really going to hurt her chances as very few Russian men are willing to accept such a responsibility of supporting two children that are not his.  She will probably have better luck with a foreign man although most foreign men, the over whelming majority, will not even consider a woman with two children although many men will consider a woman with one child.  To date I do know four foreign men who have accepted a woman with two children and each of those marriages have worked out very well.


ok serebro, I have taken the time to address your last questions and statements. 

I think at last count I had 16 questions for you and will watch for your reply to these 16 questions.

[Gator]

Gosh Jack,

Little "silver" (serebro) really got under your skin.

You wrote:

...maybe you live in Moscow where prostitution and escorts run wild, where it is as much a part of the cities [ed. city's] culture as a tour to Red Square.

This statement is absurd, almost ludicrous.  I have spent about 3-4 months in Moscow.  The only prostitutes I saw were a few cheaply dressed hookers working outside the train station.  Then again, I only went to museums, theater, ballet, Red Square, Kremlin, churches, family venues, restaurants, cafes, banyas, courthouses, police stations, shops, malls, metro, and Russian flats and dachas.  All I saw in Moscow were Russian people scurrying around making a living or otherwise enjoying themselves.  What is this about rampant prostitution?

The few bars I went to (e. g., Pancho Villa) were filled with dating couples and groups of friends, not escorts.  I suppose if one is the type of man who hangs around Night Flight and Chesterfields, one encounters working girls from the provinces.  And who are these women soliciting?  Foreign men.  Sounds like your kind of place.

[Serebro]

 question 1 isn't a question.
Question 2 is please back-up your statement with some facts
-

Question 3.   Would you give me your definition of the word sex tourist. 
this is the man who travels and has relationships with many women without having any intention to marry them.

Question 4.  Do you know of Russian men who date Russian women and who are not interested in getting married?
not now, I did, but those men were 19 and I was 19 at that time, too.

Question 5.  If the answer to question 4 is yes, do you think Russian men who date women, but are not interested in marriage at this time in there life, are bad men?
-

Question 6. Do you think Russian women, who have no interest in marriage at the time, who date men are bad women?
no, but I don't know them.

Question 7. Do you feel there is any difference between an American man and Russian man who date women and these men do not have interest in marriage at the time they are dating?
yes.

Question 8. Do you feel there is any difference between an American woman and Russian woman who date men and these women do not have interest in marriage at the time they are dating?
yes.

Question 9.  Do you feel a Russian woman telling a man he should take a look in the mirror is in poor taste.
nobeing attractive isn't cinsidered to be the man's quality in Russia.
Question 10. Do you feel a Russian man telling a woman she should take a look in the mirror is in poor taste?
YES.

Question 11. Do you think an American man telling a Russian women she should take a look in the mirror is in poor taste?
YES.


Question 12.  serebro you wrote,...."Does this make you any better than the man who comes to date and doesn't offer one of his clients at the moment when he escapes?!"

Can I ask you, again, could you please explain what you are saying or what you were trying to say with this statement.  You have a very bad problem with just writing things that make absolutely no sense. I hope you will take the time to explain what you mean with this statement?
I wrote that you use your status of the agency owner to hide your being a mere ///well, the man who travels, have relationships with women without having any intention to marry them, plus makes money by offering his ex gf to his clients and using advantages of your job in your sexual purposes which is very unprofessional.A professional will never mix his work with his personal life and he doesn't have sex with his clients.

Question 13. (two part question)   Do you know of Russian women who ask the man to marry her?   Would you ask a man you loved very much to marry you?
No, never, because this is the man who proposes.I am to proud for that
Question 14.   serebro if you are married, how many men did you meet/date before you met your husband?
LOL, in fact my husband was the first man I dated.








Answer's and comments to your last post.

so I answered your questions.
As for the rest of the post I can't see any purpose in having any other discussions with you as I don't think that at your age you will be able to change and learn  and you are definitely not the type of the person one should learn from.
You make your business which is dirty at times, you use the girls for your purposes as in the USA you have no chance to date girls like these ones, so enjoy your life.
But
don't try to persuade the others that the things you describe and do are ordinary and quite normal, because they are not.
And your attitude and lack of respect towards women remind me of the attitude of ex.prisoners in Russia towards women.

[SANDRO43]

Phil, about 90% of the 30,000 profiles on the 175 professional sites in my not-very-up-to-date personal collection (http://www.floriani.it/sitirussi/sitirussipro-eng.htm) do state that their girls are Moscow-based. Of these:

- About 35% operate both at home and outside
- About 65% operate at home only

Maybe you did not patronise the right places, but from the look of the above figures, one gets the impression that prostitution in Moscow, if not rampant, is a thriving business indeed .

[Serebro]

Phil, about 90% of the 30,000 profiles on the 175 professional sites in my not-very-up-to-date personal collection (http://www.floriani.it/sitirussi/sitirussipro-eng.htm) do state that their girls are Moscow-based. Of these:

- About 35% operate both at home and outside
- About 65% operate at home only

Maybe you did not patronise the right places, but from the look of the above figures, one gets the impression that prostitution in Moscow, if not rampant, is a thriving business indeed .

lol, btw, it's a well-known dact that most of them are from Ukraine, Moldova and very small Russian towns.
I am sure that they will agree with Jack that it's normal to have "dates" and not to wish for marriage
BTW, Sandro, how did you know all those %%

[SANDRO43]

lol, btw, it's a well-known dact that most of them are from Ukraine, Moldova and very small Russian towns.

Serebro, I didn't know you were an expert on the subject   .

BTW, Sandro, how did you know all those %%

Only virtually .

[Serebro]

Serebro, I didn't know you were an expert on the subject   .

I like watching criminal news.
It's always interesting(if not terrible) to hear interviews with these girls when they are sitting in their panties on beds and answer phylosophical questions why they are doing this and what they want from life..

[Daveman]

I like watching criminal news.
It's always interesting(if not terrible) to hear interviews with these girls when they are sitting in their panties on beds and answer phylosophical questions why they are doing this and what they want from life..

Er... uhhh... I don't understand what you mean... I better watch this to get a better idea of the situation... what channel is this??   

[Jack]

Oh Gator, you must be blind!

I also have spent time in Moscow, well over a year. If you did not see all the prostitutes, the page after page after page of escorts in the daily newspapers, then it's something that you just do not want to see.

There is no city in the world with as many beautiful bad girls as Moscow.  No city in the FSU even comes close to the number of whores, escorts and a well known sex trade.

I suggest you open your eyes Gator. If you have the balls you might want to read something you don't evidently know nothing about but the rest of the world does.

And serebro, according to many of the people who made reports below on the growing prostitution business in Moscow, they are offering different information than what you are passing out.  They are reporting that most of Moscow whores are home grown, from Russia.   

Just curious Serebro, where do you live?





http://www.storruss.com/artic30012.html

Prostitution in Russia really exists and is developing very quickly. There are no laws forbidding prostitution and there are no laws of its legalization. Even last year the range of such kind of activity was not so great as it is today.

Shortage of jobs in Russia forced Russian women to seek jobs in streets of Moscow and other large cities of Russia despite danger of illness and cruelty of whoremasters

Now you can find prostitutes in many Moscow streets: Tverskaya Street, Lininsky Prospect, Leningradskoye Shosse (highway) and Sadovoe Koltso (Garden Ring) too. You also find them in hotels, clubs, casinos, in all central squares. This phenomenon has become global and not only in Moscow. Some people say the prostitution is practically legalized and there is nothing for it but to legalize it officially.

Neadless to say, one of the prerequisites for increasing sex-business is the economical situation in the country. The majority of sex-girls are from the Russia provinces and from former Soviet republics



http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/3395.html

Moscow struggles to face up to rampant street prostitution

Moscow is struggling to cope with pervasive street prostitution -- perhaps the worst in eastern Europe -- and officials acknowledge the problem is probably here to stay.

Lured by the prospect of higher earnings, tens of thousands of women converge on Moscow where living standards continue to far outrank those of Russians in the regions.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/background_briefings/aids/383555.stm

Figures released by the Russian Health Ministry suggest that the country could be on the verge of an epidemic of HIV, the virus that causes Aids.

By the end of June, more than 4,000 cases had been registered in Moscow alone.

Many of those infected are women, who are driven to the big cities, especially Moscow, by severe poverty in the provinces.

They see prostitution as a way of making money, but often get dragged into drug abuse, too.

This turns into a vicious circle, as prostitution then becomes a means for fuelling the drug habit. And ignorance of Aids, especially in the provinces, makes the whole scenario a breeding ground for the HIV virus.

There are now nearly 16,000 reported cases of HIV infection in Russia, and 70% of them are in Moscow.



http://www.nationalreview.com/

Women are also trafficked into Russia, particularly to Moscow and St. Petersburg. Traffickers recruit them in rural areas of Russia and the former Soviet Republics, such as Ukraine, Moldova, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan. According to an official source, there are 130,000 to 150,000 women and children in prostitution in Moscow. Pimps working for organized-crime groups control them.

During the last year, the city of Moscow has also begun to address the escalating problem of prostitution, particularly the sexual abuse and exploitation of children in Moscow, and the associated health-care costs of sexually transmitted diseases and AIDS. Last year, some high-ranking officials were favoring the legalization of prostitution as a way to get control of the problem. They were also probably eyeing the large revenue legalization would make for the city. Fortunately, along with the Federal Duma, the city officials are rethinking the impact that would have on the welfare of women and children.



"Tochka" (точка) is a popular euphemism for an outdoor market for prostitutes in Moscow

The Moscow city government has made no noticeable efforts to eliminate these markets, other than to eliminate some of the more obvious points along Tverskaya, Moscow's main avenue. Tochkas are controlled by organized criminal gangs that bribe local police departments in order to remain in business. Instead, the city police randomly check the documents of women travelling alone after dark. For this reason, prostitutes often carry a hundred rubles with which to bribe the police.

A 2006 report by World Vision Middle East/Eastern Europe funded by the Canadian government and supported by six United Nations agencies and the International Organization for Migration reported that the sexual exploitation of children, child trafficking and sexual violence towards minors is increasing and that Russia is becoming a new destination for child sex tourism. The report adds that some studies claim approximately 20 per cent to 25 per cent of Moscow's sex workers are minors.[





Moscow's prostitutes — there are more than 100,000 working in the Russian capital — often come from provincial towns and experience very harsh and violent working conditions.




http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/russia.htm

A recent study showed that prostitution is high on the list of "professions" that modern Russian schoolgirls dream of pursuing.

Approximately 500 prostitutes, called "night-time butterflies, were are on Tverskaya Street, in Moscow each night. (Interior Minister Anatoly Kulikov, Maura Reynolds, "Moscow Plans Prostitute Zone," Associated Press,

Pimps are doubling as doormen at hotels in Moscow to keep control of their business and the women.



http://www.american.edu/TED/russsex.htm

The interdevochka or international girls are what prostitutes are often called in Russia, due to their preference for wealthy foreign men.

Igor Kon, perhaps the premier sexologist ever to come out of Russia, published a book on sexuality in Russian society. In his works he shows some of the ever changing statistics for Russian society and prostitution. Prostitution in Moscow tends to fit the following profile: 87% are under the age of 25 while half of those are under the age of 18, 9.1% became prostitutes before 14 years of age and 12% of these started their career after being raped. When interviewed 9.1% said they had a university education and more than 2/3 of the prostitutes had no other income outside prostitution. One in 4 were married and 1 in five have children, but perhaps most alarming was that 1 in 7 suffered from some form of venereal disease.(Kon 224)

Hard-currency prostitutes are easy to find in Russia today. One simply has to look in newspapers such as the Moscow Times and Moscow Tribune in the classified sections under "Massage" or "Introduction." These are usually prostitution rings who run their operation like any other business. One simply calls the number, describes what they are looking for and she is sent to the desired meeting place, from there she conducts the business transaction herself. Many, if not most, of the ads have one stipulation No Russians Please. Russian men were considered too poor for high-price prostitutes, foreigners were considered a better business deal. Prices can range from $150(US) an hour and upwards.(World Sex Guide) The economy does not allow many new businesses to flourish in Russia, except for the business of sex. There is a large influx of foreigners coming into Russia for business transactions. These men can and do pay for the company of young Russian women. What they do not realize is that these beautiful young women may be harboring deadly diseases that are transmitted through sexual contact. Many of these diseases can be contracted even when a condom is used. After these men leave Russia the business of the Russian prostitute becomes an international disaster.





http://query.nytimes.com/

Friday, January 18, 2008

The prostitution problem has escalated since several Moscow hotels, in an economy move, did away with the traditional floor attendants who dispense room keys, deliver tea, and snoop on the guests. Police say they counted on the tattling attendants as the first line of defense.

 



http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2000/09/08/005.html

You’ve seen them. The hundreds of women that gather nightly on Moscow’s busiest thoroughfares, in courtyards, alleyways and even the quietest nooks of the city’s more peaceful neighborhoods. Cars skim past, headlights shining, and deals are quickly brokered. Like Chechen arrest quotas and random document checks, prostitution has become such an intrinsic element of the Moscow city tableau that it’s easy to forget what a miserable business it is.

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7069-6.cfm

In Moscow there are about 120 brothels. The elite sex business is concentrated at about ten high-class hotels and massage salons. The market is controlled by about thirty groups. Street prostitution in the city center is controlled by Chechen and Daghestani groups.

Although criminal groups are involved in prostitution, it is not (as it is in the West) one of the main sources of criminal income. Other "roofs" include the security departments of hotels, individual pimps, and (especially in the case of street prostitution) the local police.



http://www.greenleft.org.au/1992/77/2173

It has been some years since the media here broke the news that prostitution, supposed not to have existed in the Soviet Union, was in fact widespread.

For the people who control Russia's prostitution, one of the most profitable directions of expansion is to the West -- with the added enticement of earning hard currency.





http://wwmr.org/notes1.htm

Or this evening. I was having dinner at my home with Natasha -- a young, beautiful, educated, witty, blue-eyed Russian who speaks very limited English. In my poor Russian, I was telling her a joke I'd heard: "A man goes into a market and asks the keeper if he has a scale. The keeper says, 'Yes ... do you have any food?'"

I didn't know the Russian word for "scale," so I pantomimed it.

She grinned, paused, and then asked to see my dollars. My face twisted in surprise. I repeated it to make sure I understood what she was asking. "Yes, please let me see your dollars." (Prostitution is rampant in Moscow. A recent survey revealed 70% of high school girls would consider prostitution for hard currency.) She knew my thoughts, "How could have I been so mistaken about this sweet, lovely lady?" and she laughed.





http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/
In contrast, our work with AIDS service organizations in Moscow, Russia has taken place in a markedly different context. The majority of women we encountered were adults when entering sex work, and over 80% indicated willingly entering into sex work and even coming to Moscow seeking such work. High rates of unemployment among women in the former Soviet Union, due to economic depression and gender discrimination, have brought these women to the Moscow sex trade seeking income. These economic factors are compounded by the fact that the majority of women in our sample were financially assisting or fully supporting family members. The fact that people besides themselves were dependent on the income of many of the sex workers must be taken into consideration in programs aimed at cessation of sex work. But none of the women interviewed were Moscow residents before entering the Moscow sex industry. Lack of legal status is perhaps the largest barrier preventing sex workers from receiving many important services and social benefits such as free and anonymous medical treatment, a steady job (outside of sex work), protection from the police, lodging, and psychological assistance. This is not a function of the legality of prostitution (sex work is not illegal in the Russian Federation), but of not having legal residency.



http://www.moscow-life.com/news/news/85-Lonely_Planet_gives_Moscow_a_bad_name

The Moscow Lonely Planet also has some fairly harsh words about prostitution, which it claims is widespread with prostitutes making rounds of the city's nightclubs, hotels and also the streets.




http://www.pop.org/main.cfm?id=218&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=95.00&r4=7.00&level=4&eid=529



On October 8, the Moscow duma sent a letter of protest and appeal to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert. The letter expresses concern over the way U.S.-funded HIV/AIDS-prevention programs are being conducted in Russia, primarily because they have not been effective in combating the HIV/AIDS epidemic

All world health organizations are warning that Russia is poised on the brink of an AIDS epidemic. One of the high-risk groups for contracting and spreading HIV is prostitutes.

There are an estimated 70,000 to 100,000 women and children in prostitution in Moscow alone. They are controlled by organized crime groups and corrupt police and officials who make millions of dollars from them each year.

The pimps in Moscow are vicious members of organized-crime rings; they are not generous, socially conscious employers. Yet, the idea that criminal penalties against pimps, traffickers, and brothel keepers will interfere with effective HIV prevention is the common position among most HIV-prevention programs, which leads them to oppose strong anti-trafficking laws.

Maybe they heard the interview that Robin Montgomery,  researcher for AIDS Infoshare, gave. She said, "If you want to put food on the table, if you want to pay for your studies, if you want to buy nice clothes, it comes down to sex work is the most lucrative, it has a future and most romanticized job there is for women in Russia today.





List of links to escort resources removed. If anyone is interested, contact Jack by PM.

[Gator]

Jack,

Oh Gator, you must be blind!

You certainly are an authority on prostitution.  You can add that to your cv.

Frankly, I do not not leer over the ads and other methods to find sex for pay.  I don't care to look.  And I do not care to read your links about them. 

The main point is that walking all around Moscow for 3-4 months, I never saw the activity except for some really blatant hookers working the train station.  Moscow is not sleazy Bangkok.

Perhaps I subconsciously averted my eyes from cheaply dressed women because I was with a classy woman who makes me forget about all other women.  Also, Survey Says:  Men pay prostitutes not for sex, but to leave after sex.  I prefer to snuggle.

[Serebro]

Jack,

You certainly are an authority on prostitution.  You can add that to your cv.

Frankly, I do not not leer over the ads and other methods to find sex for pay.  I don't care to look.  And I do not care to read your links about them. 

The main point is that walking all around Moscow for 3-4 months, I never saw the activity except for some really blatant hookers working the train station.  Moscow is not sleazy Bangkok.

Perhaps I subconsciously averted my eyes from cheaply dressed women because I was with a classy woman who makes me forget about all other women.  Also, Survey Says:  Men pay prostitutes not for sex, but to leave after sex.  I prefer to snuggle.

Gator, people often see what they WANT to see...you remember that Jack is not looking for marriage

[Serebro]

Oh Gator, you must be blind!

I also have spent time in Moscow, well over a year. If you did not see all the prostitutes, the page after page after page of escorts in the daily newspapers, then it's something that you just do not want to see.

There is no city in the world with as many beautiful bad girls as Moscow.  No city in the FSU even comes close to the number of whores, escorts and a well known sex trade.

And serebro, according to many of the people who made reports below on the growing prostitution business in Moscow, they are offering different information than what you are passing out.  They are reporting that most of Moscow whores are home grown, from Russia.   

 

Jack, I belive, I believe, you seem to be the leading prostitution expert, I believe the accent they have is made on purpose, they have specially trained  people on television to change their voice....I believe!!!!!!

[Jack]

serebro congratulations are in order for your mostly successful attempt to answer my questions as I was able to do to yours. You did miss a few questions though and I would hope you would try to answer them.


A few follow-ups if I may.



Regarding question 1.

You made a very absurd and delirious statement with the following

I work as a rialtor but I didn't know that I can date all my clients and hug them and post our pictures online saying that there's no need for my boy friend to be jealous as it's only business...

You have dodged answering my question to this statement now three times and now you are not answering question 1 because you say it isn't a question.

I have gone back and looked and I think it is a question.  AGAIN the question is, "Can you explain your statement AND how it relates to me in this thread".   serebro, that is a question.   

I can see how you probably don't want to answer it, don't blame you, if I wrote such a parable statement I would have a hard time defending it as well, but it is in the form of a question.




You know of no Russian men who date Russian women?    wow!

Ok, a follow-up to this question.  Although you personally do not know even one Russian man who dates Russian women,  you probably will agree that somewhere in Russia there is probably one or two Russian men who do date Russian women, even though you do not know them. 

These Russian men who are dating Russian women, would you consider them to be bad men?



Question number 7.

I asked you if there was any difference between an American man who dates women, but is not ready to marry, and a Russian man who dates women but is not ready to marry and you say yes, there is a difference.

Could you tell me what the difference is between the American man who dates and the Russian man who dates?



Question 8.

I asked you if there was any difference between an American woman who dates men, but is not ready to marry, and a Russian woman who dates men but is not ready to marry and you say yes, there is a difference.

Could you tell me what the difference is between the American woman who dates and the Russian woman who dates?



Question 9.
As I read your response to question 9, you think it is not in poor taste for a Russian woman to tell a man to look in the mirror BUT it is in poor taste for a Russian man to tell a woman to look in the mirror.     

Seems like your applying a double standard here.  Why is it not in poor taste for a woman to tell a man this?  There are many men who do value there appearance.



Question 12.


serebro I think for you to make untrue statements about anyone is a terrible thing to do.  Being untruthful, telling lie's, it is a bad thing to do.  But it is apparent with you that you have NO morals, you think nothing about telling lie's. 

You have written that I make money by offering my ex-girlfriends to my clients.  THIS IS A LIE YOU ARE TELLING serebro.    This has never happened serebro but it seems you are so DESPERATE to try to get your point across as being the correct point EVEN if you have to lie to do it.   

You have also written that I have sex with my clients. ANOTHER LIE serebro!!!     

serebro you have made two statements about me that are complete lie's.   serebro I think you must be able to back up your statements.

Please tell everyone here how you know I make money by offering clients ex-girlfriends?    Who were these clients, there names, who were the ex-girlfriends?    YOU serebro are telling a lie.

serebro, please tell everyone the clients I have who I have had sex with?   It must be true, you have said this, who are they?   And the truth is you AGAIN are caught in a lie. 

As are most of the statements I think you have made, they are lies.  You know of not a single man who is dating a Russian woman.  Hard to believe and after reading your ability to tell untrue stories, I wonder if you really don't know any Russian men who are dating. 

And you know no Russian women who date Russian men?   I think it's obvious serebro you will not hesitate a second to tell a lie in trying to get your point across as being the correct point of view.



With question 13.   
You say you do not know if a single Russian woman who would ever ask a man to marry them, but with regards to me you write    "You date women and when they ask to marry them you say them you are a bad man and you are poor and you offer them a "better variant"-one of your clients."

So why is it serebro that although you do not know of a single Russian women who would ever ask a man to marry him, with me you write that Russian women ask me to marry them, I tell them no and then offer them to a client.   I hope all the other men reading this so how crazy you are and how you are willing to stretch the truth to the point of making false and misleading statements.   



With question 14  I see that you only dated one man in your life and you married him.  Maybe this is why you think that no other Russian men and Russian women date other than the one person they are going to marry.   Again I hate to tell you this serebro, but there are a LOT of Russian men who date many Russian women and LOT's of Russian women who date Russian and foreign men.


I see you did not answer questions 15 and 16.  And I was really hoping to see how you were going to wiggle out of question 16.  I see now, just don't answer it.

[Jack]

Jack, You certainly are an authority on prostitution. 

Well Gator, I wouldn't call it being an authority, I have never been involved with Russian whores.  Like you, I prefer to be involved with a beautiful looking good Russian girl.    But I do read what is going on in the world Gator and as I read your statements when I talked about the prostitution epidemic in Moscow I said WHAT!     And this from a guy who has spent 3-4 months in Moscow!

  This statement is absurd, almost ludicrous.  I have spent about 3-4 months in Moscow. What is this about rampant prostitution?

You mentioned all these fine streets you were on in Moscow Gator, and you never went to Tverskaya?   What Khershatyk is to Kiev, what Deribaska is to Odessa, what Nevesky Prospect is to St. Pete, Tverskaya is to Moscow and you were never on this street, the center of the center?  Well, that could explain why you didn't see a good many of the working girls.

  Moscow is not sleazy Bangkok.

It's getting real close Gator.   Bangkok cannot hold a candle to the great number of beautiful prostitutes that Moscow has.

   And I do not care to read your links about them. 

Of course you don't want to read them Gator. If you don't read them, if you just keep your head in the sand, you can always say you just didn't know, after all, you didn't see them.   If you don't read what is being published to the world then any comments to do with Moscow having a prostitute problem would be absurd, would be a ludicrous statement.

[BillyB]

Wow! If this information is Scam 101, I wonder what kind information Scam 201 is going to provide?

One thing is for sure, when 100,000 prostitutes retire because they are replaced by younger models, or because their bodies are wore out or ravaged by disease and they have no further skills to get employment, they will search for a rich/foreign husband for support. It could be you. Get to know your woman before proposing. If she has plenty of talent in bed but don't know how to slice a tomato, beware!

[Jack]

hey BillyB,

yea, look at where scam 101 is.  Seem to begin to go of course when Gator refers to scammer Helena as my Helena, and acrzybear thought I was giving serebro a hard time after  I begin to challenge her desultory statements.

And I do have a scam 102 I was wanting to share. Photos of the two women, e-mail address's and the way they work.  For the first time I saw first hand an organized scam ran by two girls who were responding to ads run in newspapers.  In the past newspapers ads seem to be almost scam proof. In December I saw my first organized scam going after guys who were running personal newspaper ads.

[Serebro]

Wow! If this information is Scam 101, I wonder what kind information Scam 201 is going to provide?

One thing is for sure, when 100,000 prostitutes retire because they are replaced by younger models, or because their bodies are wore out or ravaged by disease and they have no further skills to get employment, they will search for a rich/foreign husband for support. It could be you. Get to know your woman before proposing. If she has plenty of talent in bed but don't know how to slice a tomato, beware!

Yes, Billy, it looks like it's even worse that I expected.
I didn't know that Jack would use ANY opportunity to find women for his business.
I am sorry, guys.

[BC]

Wow! If this information is Scam 101, I wonder what kind information Scam 201 is going to provide?

One thing is for sure, when 100,000 prostitutes retire because they are replaced by younger models, or because their bodies are wore out or ravaged by disease and they have no further skills to get employment, they will search for a rich/foreign husband for support. It could be you. Get to know your woman before proposing. If she has plenty of talent in bed but don't know how to slice a tomato, beware!

Billy,

Do you think there is any reasonable way to tell the difference?  Once she passes all the scam tests with flying colors what's next?

[jb]

Billy,

One thing is for sure, when 100,000 prostitutes retire because they are replaced by younger models, or because their bodies are wore out or ravaged by disease and they have no further skills to get employment, they will search for a rich/foreign husband for support. It could be you. Get to know your woman before proposing. If she has plenty of talent in bed but don't know how to slice a tomato, beware!

You should be careful with such statements.  I have been flamed mercilessly for saying the exact same thing. 

We, in fact, do have an irregular poster right here on the RWD who has a failed marriage with a stunningly beautiful woman, who had a somewhat dubious past.    I'm rather sure it happens more frequently than we would like to think.