Money changes everything

[Lily]

Lily, that is an excellent point. The entitlement is also an entitlement to debts in many cases

Agree. This is the reason why I want to know about the debts. My understanding is that I have to work for, of at least to live with his debts as well, on an equal foot with my man.

Unlike the West, Russia is a cash society, not a debt one. Many Russians scare the very though of being in debt, because they anticipate the situation when they might not be able to pay them out. Speaking about our family tradition, debt would mean a nightmare, a situation when a person would avoid debts at any mean. If occasionally in debt, one could almost loose his or her sleep, so scary and undesirable a debt situation would be.

However, times change, so I changes my attitude to debt completely. Especially given the state of things in the West. Maxxum, no I don't afraid of them any more. Eventually I 'd be very interested in how do I effectively use the debt as an instrument of improving our life. I appreciate it a lot if I could assist my man in debt management, if he introduces me into this and teaches me how to use debts to our advantage. 

[KenC]

WOW, it is really great to get this feedback from RW on this subject.  It is very valuable information for the men going through this now.  I have some additional questions for you ladies if you don't mind:

Years ago there was a poster on a RW forum that laid out a very specific explanation for his Russian fiancee.  (Maybe some of you old timers can recall who and more details)  Any way he explained some points to finances in America that his RW didn't have a good understanding of.  Things like even though a man's salary is X, you need to know that there are taxes withheld in the amount of Y, there fore you really only have Z amount of take home pay.
As I remember he also detailed out his house finances as mortgages were almost unknown at the time in Russia.  If someone "owned" a home (or flat) in Russia, it was automatically assumed that it was free and clear with no mortgage.  The same with American "ownership" of a car as it is usually financed with payments.

Would this type of information be helpful now?  Is it necessary now?  Is there a more clear understanding of such things as a mortgage, property taxes, income taxes and auto financing in the fsu?
KenC

[Misha]

I have seen the change in 10 years. When I first started going to Russia (1995), there were no mortgages, no car loans, no car insurance to really speak of, no consumer loans, etc....

Now, mortgages are common, you can apply for credit in stores to buy everything from cell phones, to furniture, to appliances, etc.... Car loans are pretty ubiquitous and people have insurance on their property and their cars. Simply put, many Russians are as much in debt as Westerners, often are even deeper in debt.

[Curious_George]

Lily,

I agree with MaxxxumUSA that almost all of us have some kind of debts. However, credit cards debts are absolutely horrid and nasty debts to have. Unlike mortgages and student loans, where you have assets of some kind to show for your debt, be that a house or a higher income potential,  a person who has credit card debts typically has nothing to show for them.  And the interest rates are so high that those who are trapped in high cc debt end up paying a lot just to cover their interest rate.

Plus, I personally think that people who find themselves servicing serious cc debt are not the most financially responsible kind.  Maybe some men on this board will disagree with me. But it is my opinion.

I do not include in this category people who sometimes forget to pay their balance off at the end of the month.  I am sure it happens and they, probably, learn their lesson. Also, I do not include in this category people who had to charge up their cards to buy food or pay off medical bills to stay alive.  However, there are very few people who really needed to do this. Also, maybe it makes sense for a small business owner to make a large lumpsome payment using a cc and take advantage of a 0% interest rate. I do not know. I do not do this. Things tend to change and you may find your self out of money to pay off the balance at the end of the 0% period.

However, most people, men and women alike, just get in a cc debt by bying cra stuff that they do not even need or purchasing something that they cannot afford.

How can it affect you? In several ways. If he adds you to his cc account and continues to make debts, you credit history may be negatively affected. I remember reading something about it on the CNN website. If you apply for a loan together, you will have to pay a higher interest rate. If he is up to eyeballs in debt, you might not be able to secure a loan.

To think about it, any woman needs to know about her prospective husband's debts. If his assets are just his property, his debts are certainly not.

[Lily]

Would this type of information be helpful now?  Is it necessary now?  Is there a more clear understanding of such things as a mortgage, property taxes, income taxes and auto financing in the fsu?
KenC

KenC,

It is definitely more understanding of such things in Russian society. Many people take loans to buy things like gabaub listed. Especially if a RW has a financial or accounting background, she should know those things well.

But let me stress it, making loans in the West and making loans in Russia are very different. So far we were talking here about how it is done in the West.

In Russia however, most people resort to loans where there is absolutely no other way out to get the desired. For smaller things like a fridge, a TV set, furniture, etc, many prefer to save some salary money for a few months. In other words, people would still avoid loans if they can. If it comes about a car or especially an apartmnent where you probably cannot make savings, or the price is so high that it makes personal savings not a reasonable way to finance the purchase, then a Russian would apply with a bank.

Credit history..yes, many Russians understand it, but again, credits generally are a last resort in Russia.

[Lily]

The income tax is relatively simple in Russia. If a Russian derives her only income from employment, she gets an amount of her monthly salary deducted 13 percent of personal income tax. This is done by enployer that sends her every month a report, what she has earned this month, what are the mandatory deductions like income tax, pension fund payment, and may be some other deductions that are often very insignificant in amount. Everything else is her disposable income that she takes home.

This is how an ordinary RW would probably seen the income tax issue. Of course, some education to the local standard would be needed.

[ircha]

Money changes everything... I agree. But I would not let money change ME. Be the master of your money and it will serve you like a faithful servant!  

I respect men who are masters of their money. You can see it in the way they treat money. They never look cheap or too generous; they never waste or spend irrationally. I know a few people of this kind. It's great to watch how they do business. 

In Russia, making big money is often associated with being rude, blunt and aggressive - a very Russian way of being business-like. But those who really do a serious business, are different. I think those people follow some universal standards, and Russian national habits are no longer important to them. 

[Jet]

The income tax is relatively simple in Russia. If a Russian derives her only income from employment, she gets an amount of her monthly salary deducted 13 percent of personal income tax. This is done by enployer that sends her every month a report, what she has earned this month, what are the mandatory deductions like income tax, pension fund payment, and may be some other deductions that are often very insignificant in amount. Everything else is her disposable income that she takes home.

This is how an ordinary RW would probably see the income tax issue. Of course, some education to the local standard would be needed.

This is effectively the same idea as the US for people who are employees of a company, the only difference being that you fill out a form at the end of the year which exactly calculates the tax and whether you have had too much (they give back the extra paid in) or not enough (you have to pay a little more in) deducted over the previous year.

It gets complex when a person is self employed because there are a lot more calculations involved, and showing how much money you made during the year is a delicate balancing act for most. If you show that you made a lot of money, you owe a lot of tax. If you show you didn't make much, your tax bill is small, but it's harder to qualify for credit to keep your business going, because you can't prove to the bank that you are able to pay a loan back 

[Lily]

In Russia the employed people usually don't have to fill out the annual income declaration unless they claim some tax advantages for next year in case they made some expenses like education, medical treatment, etc., so in very particular cases only.

[Gator]

Lily and other RW,

Debt is the American way of life.  Many Americans care less about what something costs vs. how much they have to pay. 

When working I was always in debt up to my eyeballs.  I borrowed as much money as the bank would lend me because I could derive a higher return on the borrowed amount than what the bank charged in interest.

A man's NET WORTH is an important measure.  It is determined by:

-  Adding all of his assets (what he owns)
         House
         Brokerage accounts (stocks, bonds, mutual funds)
         Pension plan
         Bank account
         Automobile, etc.

-  and subtracting all of his liabilities (what he owes)

         House mortgage
         Car loan
         Credit card debt
         Medical bills
         Back taxes (due but unpaid)
         Legal judgments against him (alimony, child support), etc.

Young men usually have low net worth, but may be earning a large income or have excellent prospects for such.

If the man has a private business, it becomes muddy.  For example, my partnership was growing rapidly.  We were cash positive, but we had to take most of that and put it back into the company as working capital to fuel the company's continued growth. 

We also had to borrow more from the bank.  The bank required collateral to back the loan.  So I had to assign my house to the bank (meaning that if my company failed, the bank would foreclose on my house and take it from my family). 

Our wives as co-owners of the houses had to sign documents giving the house to the bank if the business failed.  Of course this concerned the wives, but they realized that the husbands had always taken care of them in the past and would continue to do so. 

So I looked rich on paper but it could fall like a house of cards.   Can a RW tolerate such risks of a man owning a business?  Or would she prefer a man to make less money working for a large company as an employee and her house not be used for collateral.
         

[Lily]

So I looked rich on paper but it could fall like a house of cards.   Can a RW tolerate such risks of a man owning a business?  Or would she prefer a man to make less money working for a large company as an employee and her house not be used for collateral.
         

It depends from woman to woman, but personally I would not only tolerate sich risks, but even stimulate my man to take them provided the risks are informed, to some extent predictable and well calculated. Of course I am going to work together with him in order to make this investments work.

The thing for me is how do I let my prospect know that in my person he is going to acquire an earning asset, not a depreciating one? ...

[Gator]

Lilly,

The thing for me is how do I let my prospect know that in my person he is going to acquire an earning asset, not a depreciating one? ...

Do not worry, a natural filter will make it happen.   Namely, intelligent men will recognize your value as an earner (among your other values).  Unintelligent men will not; however, it does not matter because I know that you do not want an unintelligent man.

Usually early in correspondence men and women discuss their life goals other than find someone who makes their heart go pitter-patter.  You can truthfully state that you have accomplished much in your life and that you wish to continue to advance your professional career.  You said it earlier - you do not want to live off your man's money but wish to accomplish more with your life, to add money to your family.  You need his help just during the transition period.

I dated only RW who did not want more children  (I'm too old for changing diapers again).   Among the many RW I dated, all expressed a desire to continue to work in some way.   RW are not lazy.  Point them in the right direction and stand back.

[SANDRO43]

In Russia the employed people usually don't have to fill out the annual income declaration unless they claim some tax advantages for next year in case they made some expenses like education, medical treatment, etc., so in very particular cases only.

Lily, that's an almost universal procedure, at least in Europe:

- Taxes, health/pension contributions deducted at source (from monthly paycheck)
- Annual reconciliation with 12th/13th (Italy) paycheck*
- Fill out an annual tax return for any unrecovered deductibles

*Yes, we get 13 paychecks per year (double salary in December), a long-standing institution to finance our Xmas presents .

[KenC]

I find it rather ironic that this venture attracts "risk takers" from the men's side of things and matches them with the usually very conservative non risk taking RW.

It has been a wild ride for my dear Lena with being married to me.  I purchased my first business when I was 27 but had always had side businesses even prior to that time.  Through the 80's and 90's I developed a national marketing company that was very very successful.  Through the wonders of divorce, the stock that once was mine was split with my ex and the balance of power in this particular company was thrown out of balance and I found myself starting over again.  The model for my new company was changed slightly in the fact that it was built on the foundation of a few very large customers.  Unfortunately, one of those key accounts was Kmart.  When Kmart filed for bankruptcy, I incurred mammoth losses and my business was sunk.

Chronologically speaking, I met Lena in 98, she arrived here in 99 and Kmart filed in 02, but really tanked the end of 00 or the beginning of 01.  Some great welcoming to America, a new marriage and the life of peaches and creme for a young woman, huh?  Needless to say there were some very dismal and scary financial times for us.  All this obsession for money and cash flow was a very foreign concept to Lena.  She stuck right by my side and never batted an eye.  She had the confidence in me that I would be able to turn this disaster around and get our collective financial feet back on firm ground. 

At one particularly low point, I later found out, Lena had taken a pair of diamond earrings she had been gifted before, and shopped them around to some jewelry stores in an effort to help "the family."  You have to understand that the earrings were only diamond chips and of very little value (other than sentimental)  Believe me, it still brings a tear to my eye to retell this story now.  That is why I can only shake my head when there are accusations made here and on other forums that Lena is with me for my money.  They just do not understand the depth and character of this woman.

Not to end on such a sad note, Lena has been able to witness a new birth of my current very successful business venture.  And she now has a pair of whopping diamond earrings (should we ever need them! )  The girl certainly deserves them!
She took the "richer or poorer" part very seriously.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, it is kind of strange how it worked out in my case.

With Lance we didn't even discuss finances, I don't remember talking about it really, other than he told me he was renting at that time and then he bought a condo that they were just starting to build, i remember he brought lots of plans of it and showed them to me, at that time I just looked, understood hardly anything and said ok, honey. I was on the seventh sky being in love, everything else didn't matter. At the same time during our courtship I saw how he treated money, I liked it and in my mind that matter was closed. When I came to his place in Bellevue, WA, it was one bedroom apartment and I was just happy. When we moved to our condo I couldn't understand why we would need a bathroom in each bedroom, that was funny and ridiculous to me (at that time  ). Lance turned out to be on a frugal side and saved a lot. I have never been a spender and Lance taught me even more of that. I am really glad about it, allthough comparing to others it looked like a nightmare because I had a hair cut only once within those three years. I used to take care of it myself before...In any way I was blessed to not really care about it that much but at the same time to get into a really good financial situation, as it can be for a 27 y.o and very promising Microsoft employee. Every year I remember his salary went 10K up...

Second marriage with Tim was absolutely the opposite in terms of finances. What I mean is this. By that time I knew exactly how to take care of all the things and what they actually meant. I lived by myself for 3 years. I knew what i wanted and needed and thank God for salary brackets in match.com search and profile system.  Of course there is no guarantee people will say the truth about how much they make, that's the risk. But again I was blessed because Tim listed everything absolutely honestly. By the time we were engaged both him and me knew absolutely everything about our financial situation, how much we would be able to afford for our new common house and so on.... I actually started sharing about my things first with him and then asked him some questions about his situation. Our future was/is promising. Tim is kind of the opposite of Lance, he doesn't squander money at all, but he doesn't save it as desperately as Lance did either. Tim told me he was fine with me taking care of all the bills and accounts, he didn't want to have this headache (I understand him), he would just make money and it is all mine, that's it.  I was very glad about that because I have to know what is going on and kind of have good controle over it and know that we are doing good or how good. Also, you all know I work as a translator/interpreter and am trying my best to contribute to the family funds too. It is very important to me and helps us a lot. It gives me big satisfaction in many ways. 

I think the first way is immature and less responsable than the second. God blessed me nevertheless because he already knew my heart and how devoted I was and that I would take care of my sick husband from day one till his last breath without thinking about money even for second.

At the same time, still, I would advise all women to find out as much as they could about their man's situation. There should be no secrets and no uncomfortable feelings about asking money questions between two people who want to be successful both in their marriage and finances. If you can't trust each other with your money, disclosing your situation, how could you trust each other in your relationship? It is important to know the salary, monthly expenses/bills and what is left over for tithing, savings and entertainment... Every man must have some savings, 401K or brokerage account or something. If he is over 40 even more so. A man who makes 100K when he is 55 differs from the man who makes 100K and who is 35. Every woman should know what is enough or ok for her, what style of life she is worth, of course she is priceless, but you know what i mean. It becomes tricky when a man has a good salary but no savings, or lots of savings and not high salary. The best is of course if he has both, let it be even medium size. The one thing is clear too - marrying and bringing RW over here costs a lot of money in a long run, those who make less than 50K I would say don't have a sunny future with their RW ahead. Of course there are exceptions....

[AnastassiaAsh]

KenC, of course only long time could tell you who your RW really is, and your Lena turned out to be a 'diamond' herself.   

In any business one should be ready to be as high up as low down, taking risks...Happy for your growing business. Hope there will never be down times...

Diamond earrings...I am kind of waiting for those too, maybe in 5-10 years...hehehe...but i am blessed, can't say anything...

[Jet]

She took the "richer or poorer" part very seriously.

I've mentioned this before but I think it bears repeating because it is such a fascinating dynamic. Of all the "old timers", the guys that have been around for a long time and have what I would consider to be successful long term marriages, it seems like the ONE THING they have in common, is that they weathered some sort of catastrophic financial "event". Although there are similarities (Darden's moratorium on spending -  post 9/11 coupled with my next largest customer being thrown off NASDAQ in the same month, sounds a whole lot like KenC's Kmart crisis) each story has had it's own unique situation, and each time the wives showed their true faith in the husbands and did whatever it took for the family to pull through. It doesn't mean they were thrilled about it, but rather than cutting their losses and heading for the door, they threw their full support behind their men and toughed it out. One of the really fantastic side effects coming out of this for us, was that Lil came to understand why so many people think America is so great, she was absolutely amazed at how quickly we were able to turn our misfortune around and get back to where we wanted to be, financially. She once remarked that if we were faced with similar troubles in her town it would likely take more than a decade to dig ourselves back out, if ever. I'm really very humbled by the courage my wife showed during the rough spell, and I believe it did have a very positive impact on our relationship overall (not that I'd want to relive it  ).

I must confess, when I read Maxuum's posts a while back talking about unloading the Mustang, I had a little smirk on my face. Lil asked what I was smiling about, and I simply stated "They're going to make it just fine" 

[KenC]

Jet,
You certainly are right when you say that people can rebound here in America like no other country in the world. If you're smart and work hard the opportunities are out there.

I do not agree that all the long term successful marriages endured a financial melt down though.  But it sure is a wonderful feeling have a good strong RW by your side in a crisis.
KenC

[Jet]

You're right probably not *all* but a surprisingly large majority. The only one I can recall NOT pulling through it was Bean.

[KenC]

You're right probably not *all* but a surprisingly large majority. The only one I can recall NOT pulling through it was Bean.

Well, you know what they say:
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
enC

[MaxxumUSA]

The one thing is clear too - marrying and bringing RW over here costs a lot of money in a long run, those who make less than 50K I would say don't have a sunny future with their RW ahead. Of course there are exceptions....

Annastasia,

I don't fall in this category...  HOWEVER...  A man that makes 50K/ year could easily pull all this off and provide a good home for a RW.  She would probably need to work if they wanted a few more luxuries, but it is possible to have a nice life with this income.

There are many small rural areas where you can purchase a nice home in the 50K-75K range.  This makes a mortgage with taxes and everything only about $500-$700 monthly. Drive a car a couple years old and pay cash = no car payment.  I think most people that work a "Job" have some means to make additional money on the side like selling stuff on ebay or manual labor stuff.

I think the biggest hurdle for the 50K guys is finding a reasonable amount of time to get over to Russia and get to know their woman.  The other hurdle would be to save about 15-30K before venturing in the RW direction.  I forget his name - but there was a 50k man from texas that did well to bring his wife here.  As far as I know she is extremely happy with him.

I just don't want to discourage people that have an income less than $100k.  For me - I know when I made 50K there is no way I could accomplish what I did by getting my wife here.  But that's me.  I know others could with proper money management and time management.

My wife mentioned to me the other day - She never dreamed in her life that she would live in a foreign land and drive a nice car and have nice things.  You just don't need six figures to supply this.  Yes - it helps.  But not needed IMO.

- Maxxum

[mischief]

Jet,  I think this dynamic is a "nature's" way to sort things out and show who we really are and what we are looking for in that relationship... and I believe that any decent woman, no matter what nationality she is, would "show her true faith in the husbands and do whatever it takes for the family to pull through"...
What I don't understand is why most of the guys are so paranoid about the money part... Money matters! To me it would be irresponsible to marry a man who can not provide and take care of me and my children... Most of the woman who are/were looking for a foreign husband have "living in a stable country which can provide financial security and equal opportunity for her and/or her children" on the back of the minds...    If a woman respects and appreciates you and makes an effort to make the relationship work it does NOT matter what her initial motivation was ...
Marriages with a big age difference work not because of money though nobody can deny they help ... but they work because someone makes an effort and tries harder.  My husband always says: " I never assume and take anything for granted.  I don't count for you to stick around.  I work hard on our relationship, do the best I possibly can and hope it will be enough for you to stay with me as long as possible."

[Curious_George]

those who make less than 50K I would say don't have a sunny future with their RW ahead. Of course there are exceptions....

I second that.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Maxxum, I totally agree with everything you said. Of course it is possible and USCIS thinks it is possible too with their minimum range. But I just think it really won't be fair to her. We do want to have a better life too. But If she is from a little town or country I guess it will be fine for her. But again you see you are saying he should have lots of savings to actually do it. I agree. It is tough. It is just it is so much better to be able to actually afford it and not have to live in a 75K house and drive a very old car....Very beautiful women (whole packages, as I am sure your wife is), no matter how unmaterialistic they might be, still they want and do deserve men who earn 100k or more. And that is good and right and just in my book. The fact that she stuck with you when your business went down already means she totally deserves a really good life, and it just a beginning of your blessings...

[KenC]

It is not a coincidence that rich guys get the prettiest women.  The real trick is for the guy to make sure it isn't just the money that makes the woman attracted to him.  And the other side of the coin is that it is not just the woman's looks that makes the man attracted.  While money and beauty may be the initial attractions, there has to be much more involved to reach a successful relationship.
KenC