Money changes everything

[SANDRO43]

Maxxum, I imagine if you took a poll, 90% of the readers would say the same. 

Count me in that 90%. So repetitive and boring .

[AnastassiaAsh]

Yes, guys, could you please agree to disagree politely and calmly? I have been thinking and worried for both of you all this time...       

[KenC]

Gator, Sandro & Annasstasia,
If we continue to discuss Billy and not get back to the topic at hand, then he will have successfully sidetracked yet another thread.  Please let us talk about "money changes everything.:
KenC

[GalinaF]

... I kind of like it that way. Nobody knows my entire portfolio and probably never will until I'm dead.
... But I am vague in the answers and much more vague in person.

… but your W-2 forms, tax forms (1040), and bank statements  are very concrete. Your fiancée will have to show these papers at her interview to get her K-1. Also, as far as I can remember, you will have to send to her a notarized Affidavit of Support where you have to list your assets.  So, at a certain point in your relationship, your RW will have sufficient information about your financial standing…

[KenC]

… but your W-2 forms, tax forms (1040), and bank statements  are very concrete. Your fiancée will have to show these papers at her interview to get her K-1. Also, as far as I can remember, you will have to send to her a notarized Affidavit of Support where you have to list your assets.  So, at a certain point in your relationship, your RW will have sufficient information about your financial standing…

Good point, Galina,
I have some questions for you an any other RW here.  At what point in the relationship should the man share these documents with the woman?  What would RW want to know about the man's fianances before she would seriously consider him as "husband material"?  Just how much detail is necessary for you to be comfortable?
KenC

[Lily]

I am not sure that I want to know it. What for? It's HIS money, not mine. I have not earned anything of them, and I am not entitled to his money in any way. Why would I need to know the figure? It can be any amount as soon as he is comfortable with it.
 
I wonder at this Affidavit of support where all his assets are supposed to be listed.... Does it not need to show only some SUFFICIENT amount of assets but ALL assets? are you sure?

[Lily]

… but your W-2 forms, tax forms (1040), and bank statements  are very concrete. Your fiancée will have to show these papers at her interview to get her K-1. Also, as far as I can remember, you will have to send to her a notarized Affidavit of Support where you have to list your assets.  So, at a certain point in your relationship, your RW will have sufficient information about your financial standing…

Oops, sorry my mistake, you did not mention to list ALL assets...I suppose it would still be about some sufficient assets only.

[BC]

IMHO it's all about trust.  The AMEX goldcard was worth far more than EU greencard.

[Curious_George]

I am not sure that I want to know it. What for? It's HIS money, not mine. I have not earned anything of them, and I am not entitled to his money in any way. Why would I need to know the figure? It can be any amount as soon as he is comfortable with it.

I have a different opinion. In the beginning, RW needs to have at least a general understanding about a guy’s finances. She simply cannot plan ahead without knowing what his situation is.  If it works out, will she have to look for work immediately after she moves?  Can she be picky about finding a job and not settle for a waitress position at You Name It?  Will she be able to go to college if she needs to? How about a graduate school for those with Russian JD/MD degrees?
Actually, I am kind of surprised that there are hardly any work/school threads on this forum?  Does your RW go to school/work?

This does not imply that a guy should sign his life away when he meets an RW and disclose absolutely everything.  But if you are serious, then it is a good idea to mention what you do for a living and in general terms give her a hint as to what your salary is. Maybe, you can do this in comparative terms without disclosing the actual amount. Ideally, I think, this should take place after you have communicated for several months and feel confident that she is serious and before the "I love you" part.

And if you have decided to get married and file for a visa then, in my opinion, full disclosure is absolutely required. You should inform her not only about your assets, but also about your debts!  Some guys just conveniently forget to inform their wives-to-be about their credit card debts.  The consequences are devastating. Her credit history will be negatively affected due to no fault of her own.

[Voyageur]

I am a latecomer to this thread and haven't invested in reading each post too carefully, but I wanted to add my two cent's worth.

I can't help but remember. that a few years back on RWG, this topic of a monthly stipend was also discussed at length. I remember Donna Pedro (a RW form Moscow who came to live in the US, in Alabama and then Florida) had a field day with how cheap the responses were from western men. She laughed at figures like $ 50.00 a week, saying how greedy we all were. That how could be be so cheap when someone is closing their life in one country to move to another country.She argued pretty well and I seem to remember that most men back then did send something. I could be wrong in some of my thinking but I am sure if I am off too much I'll be corrected pretty quickly in this forum  .

My opinion is that you should be absolutely sure that you have found the right person, that she values your money as much as you do. You should not be too stingy with helping her with expenses that she is going to face closing up her life in the FSU in anticipating moving to your country.

In my case, I went back in my records and saw that I did put into an account some less than half the amount of money Ms. Pedro cited. I remember that my wife used this money to take driving lessons, to get her international drivers license, to get the apostille stamp and paperwork from her ex-husband.  There was also fees for health exam in Moscow, travel expenses to and from authorized clinic. There were immunizations and other things that I came up. I increased the amount I sent to her by four fold a month before she made the trip to Moscow for her interview.

Of course, all of this worked out well for me. There are expenses that - as a real man - you should be ready to cover. Don't expect a detailed accounting on the amount of money spent from this account. Trust but verify. I don't advocate just sending money over to someone that you are not sure about, especially if red flags are raised.  I wasn't always so smart. The first time I applied for a K1 visa I also sent money and was a big sucker. I did not observe the red flags that were so obvious in hindsight. 

[KenC]

Voyageur,
Thanks for participating here. I remember Donna as an excellent debater.  I have to agree with you about covering all the related expenses and not being too overly concerned about the minor details.  I remember a guy back on IIRC Planet Love that was obsessed with his girl accounting for an unexplained $20 spent.  WOW.  That was idiotic IMO.  His relationship finally fell apart (go figure!)

Here is what I would say to Donna today in regard to this:

That how could be be so cheap when someone is closing their life in one country to move to another country.

  When the "life in Russia is shut down" then I would take on the full financial responsibilities, but not before.

I wonder how she is doing?  Anyone know?
KenC

[Gator]

Curious George,

I think, this should take place after you have communicated for several months and feel confident that she is serious and before the "I love you" part.

After communicating for several months but before "I love you"?  This is about Western men dating RW in a long-distance relationship. 

Not even the great procrastinor, namely me, waited several months to use the L-word. 

George, you make a valid point.  It is not about the exact dollars (as such figures are almost meaningless to a woman who has never lived in the West), but about the economic stability and freedom she will have.  That is easily measured by explaining whether she needs to work almost immediately, she could go to school to enhance her skills, she will never need to work and can stay home with the babies and be a soccer mom, or she can live the life of leisure while deciding what she wants to do.

[KenC]

Gator,
You are just a Lovable OLD FART!
 
KenC

[Curious_George]

Curious George,
After communicating for several months but before "I love you"?  This is about Western men dating RW in a long-distance relationship. 

Not even the great procrastinor, namely me, waited several months to use the L-word. 

Well, how soon does the L-word come up? 

[Gator]

George,

Your question would make for an interesting and harmless poll.  Hint, hint!  We need something light around here.

[MaxxumUSA]

Voyageur,
I have to agree with you about covering all the related expenses and not being too overly concerned about the minor details.  I remember a guy back on IIRC Planet Love that was obsessed with his girl accounting for an unexplained $20 spent.  WOW.  That was idiotic IMO.  His relationship finally fell apart (go figure!)
KenC

One thing I must say...  WHEN the time was right and my wife (fiancee at that time) had access to more (actually all) money for things - Exact accounting was not and will not ever be required.  Crap - It is impossible for me to keep track of my own cash - let alone trying to keep track of the money I gave her for spending money.  It would drive me insane even to worry about it.

In addition to bill money and necessities money - We both get "crazy" money to do with what we please.  I usually spend mine on booze and gambling.  I NEVER have asked my wife how she spends her "crazy" money.  That's her business.

For the record - if she ever asked me how I spent this money or that money I would quite simply laugh so hard that I think I would pee my pants.

Having said all that - If and when resupply of cash is required too often or too much things are slowed down a bit.  I mean - there IS a bottom to the well.

[Faux Pas]

… but your W-2 forms, tax forms (1040), and bank statements  are very concrete. Your fiancée will have to show these papers at her interview to get her K-1. Also, as far as I can remember, you will have to send to her a notarized Affidavit of Support where you have to list your assets.  So, at a certain point in your relationship, your RW will have sufficient information about your financial standing…

Yes thats true they are concrete for wages for the particular year but, depending the individual there is likely assets or investments that aren't listed. It's not very difficult to do. One might only wish to list enough assets to full fill the requirements.

[Faux Pas]

I am not sure that I want to know it. What for? It's HIS money, not mine. I have not earned anything of them, and I am not entitled to his money in any way. Why would I need to know the figure? It can be any amount as soon as he is comfortable with it.
 
I wonder at this Affidavit of support where all his assets are supposed to be listed.... Does it not need to show only some SUFFICIENT amount of assets but ALL assets? are you sure?

Lily,

Thats an admirable attitude and one I think is shared by many men and women. Especially someone that has been through bad marriages in the past. In the US marriage in and of itself opens the doors of entitlement for both men and women. Of course it depends on the state they reside as to the ramifications. There's as many horror stories as success stories. The subject of money doesn't change everything for everybody but it certainly changes plenty of peoples minds on all sides of the spectrum.

[Lily]

Lily,

Thats an admirable attitude and one I think is shared by many men and women. Especially someone that has been through bad marriages in the past. In the US marriage in and of itself opens the doors of entitlement for both men and women. Of course it depends on the state they reside as to the ramifications. There's as many horror stories as success stories. The subject of money doesn't change everything for everybody but it certainly changes plenty of peoples minds on all sides of the spectrum.

FP, I did not have any bad marriages in the past, but this is an attitude that has been usual in a few generations of our family. Yes I know that by law marriage opens the doors of entitlement, but in this case I am just sharing my personal opinion, nothing more.

Curious George mentioned one very valid point about the debts. This is the thing I would like to know for sure. How many debt he has, for what objects and for how long, what are the conditions for repayment, etc.

[GalinaF]

... At what point in the relationship should the man share these documents with the woman?  What would RW want to know about the man's fianances before she would seriously consider him as "husband material"?  Just how much detail is necessary for you to be comfortable?
KenC

I didn’t need much information about Michael’s finances to consider him “husband material”. Or let’s put it the other way – I didn’t make my decision about Michael based on his finances. There were other much more important factors like his smile, well-written letters, and his willingness to discuss every topic/issue that bothered me.

Once, when we talked about our future life together, Michael came up with a ridiculous idea that he would give me a certain amount of money per month for my personal expenses. I strongly objected. I told Michael that I would never agree with a role of a schoolgirl who has a monthly allowance. To be comfortable, I need to know the whole picture. I explained that I should know exactly how much money is in our bank account to plan accordingly. Although the idea of shared finances was rather foreign to Michael, he promised the full disclosure and dropped the idea of any allowance… I saw his financial documents just before my interview, and although I had some questions, I kept my mouth shut because I thought that it would be more appropriate to see how the man lives, and only then ask some rather unpleasant questions…

[Lily]

  I saw his financial documents just before my interview, and although I had some questions, I kept my mouth shut because I thought that it would be more appropriate to see how the man lives, and only then ask some rather unpleasant questions…

Galina, in those papers, did you discovered some debts?

[GalinaF]

I am not sure that I want to know it. What for? It's HIS money, not mine. I have not earned anything of them, and I am not entitled to his money in any way. Why would I need to know the figure? It can be any amount as soon as he is comfortable with it.
 
I wonder at this Affidavit of support where all his assets are supposed to be listed.... Does it not need to show only some SUFFICIENT amount of assets but ALL assets? are you sure?

Well, while at the very beginning of the relationship it is sufficient to know that the man in question has a job and a medical insurance, owns a house, doesn’t complain about paying bills in every email, etc. etc. to understand that his is in a decent financial standing, but when you are actually going to relocate… Well, then you should know some numbers. Does he have money in his bank account to pay for your and your children’s AOS? Does he have money to buy a car for you? What if you have a family emergency and have to go to Russia? Does he have money to buy a plane ticket for you? Because if there is no money in his account, it will be your responsibility to pay for all of the above… and it should not come as a nasty surprise.

As far as I remember, a man is supposed to list ALL of his assets in his Affidavit of Support. The consulate can see how much a man makes from his tax forms; his form 1040 shows whether he is above the poverty level or not…

[MaxxumUSA]

Curious George mentioned one very valid point about the debts. This is the thing I would like to know for sure. How many debt he has, for what objects and for how long, what are the conditions for repayment, etc.

Lily,

Just thinking about the complicated issue of finances hurts my brain.  There are SO MANY things to consider.  I think it would be fantastic to not even know about many of these things.  It would be even better to not care.

So...  my advice to you is simple - make sure your basics are met - and then just relax and enjoy life.  If luxuries come - thank goodness.  If not - oh well.

Just an opinion.

-


And lily...  We ALL have debts of one sort or another.  This I will guarantee.  If you don't like debt then America is not the place you should find a man.  We ALL have it.  We might have MORE assets than debts - but guaranteed we have debts.

[Faux Pas]

FP, I did not have any bad marriages in the past, but this is an attitude that has been usual in a few generations of our family. Yes I know that by law marriage opens the doors of entitlement, but in this case I am just sharing my personal opinion, nothing more.

Curious George mentioned one very valid point about the debts. This is the thing I would like to know for sure. How many debt he has, for what objects and for how long, what are the conditions for repayment, etc.

Lily, that is an excellent point. The entitlement is also an entitlement to debts in many cases

[GalinaF]

Galina, in those papers, did you discovered some debts?

Indirectly. The financial documents of your American fiancé do not provide any information about his financial liabilities: house loans, parental/student loans, car loans, credit card debt, etc. BUT if you compare the numbers in different forms, you could see some discrepancies or/and inconsistencies. In my case, it was a discrepancy between his decent (quite high) annual income and the amount of money in his bank account (rather low). Yes, it was a sign of debts for me, and I was correct.