I'm still not convinced! The official stats just don't make sense!

[Admin]

this sounds so naive...do you realise who the main mafia is in Russia? Democracy in Russia? yeah, that will be the day...do you realise that majority of Russians don't really care about democracy? They mostly just want a little stability and a better standart of living for the working people. Putin and his gang consolidated power, has been racking in billions and occasionally throws a bone to the people to keep them in line. People seem to be happy with that especially in big cities.
The Russian way is "grab as much as possible when you can, and run somewhere abroad to raise you children in a safer environment."
And if a true patriot comes alone and starts talking about democracy, corruption, money dissapearing...they will make him (or her) dissapear quickly. They are professionals. And they are the real mafia in Russia with absolute power, who controls lower level street level gangsters. Most big mafioso types who survived the gang wars of the 90s are now legitimate "businessmen" they own big businesses like insurance companies and banks.
But at the same time Putin and his organization are angels compared to people like Stalin...
as one famous Russian writer said "Umom Rossiyu ne poymesh" Which basically means "you can't understand Russia with a logical mind" They also say, that you can't comprehend Russia, you just have to love it...well, many Russians choose to love it from far away aperently! Seems like anywhere we go now here in the US I hear Russian language!  The numbers of Russians who live here in the States are amazing. No I don't have the exact stats for the A.R. people, but I know that I have to be careful and not to sware in Russian out loud in a store, because most likely there will be a few Russians shopping there.

I see I've made you hyper-sensitive to claims about statistics. No need - really. There is a huge difference between expressing one's opinion in an open forum - and using a claimed statistic as a means to lure in new customers. In this context, you are quite alright even if I did not agree with you - but I generally do.

I *do* recall seeing some stats produced for the Denver metro area, and the numbers of FSU citizens now residing in the Denver metro area is in the tens of thousands. Maybe more now. We hear Russian spoken almost every time we go out.

Back to Billy's point though - what WILL it take to root out corruption and create both stability and a foundation for future growth. Corruption will undermine growth - would you agree? If so, then growth is stifled and people's lives suffer. There must be something better - but what?

- Dan

[Eduard]

I see I've made you hyper-sensitive to claims about statistics. No need - really. There is a huge difference between expressing one's opinion in an open forum - and using a claimed statistic as a means to lure in new customers. In this context, you are quite alright even if I did not agree with you - but I generally do.

I *do* recall seeing some stats produced for the Denver metro area, and the numbers of FSU citizens now residing in the Denver metro area is in the tens of thousands. Maybe more now. We hear Russian spoken almost every time we go out.

Back to Billy's point though - what WILL it take to root out corruption and create both stability and a foundation for future growth. Corruption will undermine growth - would you agree? If so, then growth is stifled and people's lives suffer. There must be something better - but what?

- Dan

Dan!!!! I'm so happy to know that I have your watchful eye on me!!! It's been almost 30 years since I've been watched by "friendly" KGB fellows and you just brought out some warm and fuzzy memories
Did you know that Putin's job was to escort or/and follow foreigners when they were visiting St. Pete? I actually met a guy who was escorted by Putin when visiting St.Pete, Russia. I think he said in the 70s but dont't hold me up to it, can't remember for sure.
In regard to your question about corruption there...that's a million dollar question!
I don't think much will change. It's part of the culture, it's the norm. I personally think it's discusting to have that in a country that produced so many outstanding scientists, phylosophers, writer, poets, the only country who for so many years was the only worthy adversary to the US.
I personally think (no stats on this, Dan) that the history of opression and slavery (Russian landlords owned pesants who lived on their land and could sell or buy them as they pleased untill after the war of 1812) has much to do with this. The mentality and conciousness of the common folk is geard toward survival at the most basic level and historically anyone who raised a voice of discontent in Russia was silenced one way or another.
I read somewhere (can't remember the source, Dan!!! ) That Marx specifically said that socialism/communism should not be tryed in Russia. That it would only work in a country with more mature social conciousness. Obviously Lenin didn't agree with that outlook...

[Eduard]

I wish they would do away with elections all together so that sensible people like myself could ask for political asylum in the civilized world.. because as long as there's an illusion of a democratic state, Russia is never going to be officially recognized as a corrupt dictatorship..

Be careful what you say about Russia!!! When I said almost the same thing when I first joined this forum - that I hate the corruption in Russia and can't quite understand why would a person choose to live in Russia (other than beautiful RW) if they can live in a western, more civilised society I was attacked like a heretic during the inquisition time!
Some people here believe that bribes are a form of taxation! and that it's OK!

[Admin]

Dan!!!! I'm so happy to know that I have your watchful eye on me!!! It's been almost 30 years since I've been watched by "friendly" KGB fellows and you just brought out some warm and fuzzy memories
Did you know that Putin's job was to escort or/and follow foreigners when they were visiting St. Pete? I actually met a guy who was escorted by Putin when visiting St.Pete, Russia. I think he said in the 70s but dont't hold me up to it, can't remember for sure.
In regard to your question about corruption there...that's a million dollar question!
I don't think much will change. It's part of the culture, it's the norm. I personally think it's discusting to have that in a country that produced so many outstanding scientists, phylosophers, writer, poets, the only country who for so many years was the only worthy adversary to the US.
I personally think (no stats on this, Dan) that the history of opression and slavery (Russian landlords owned pesants who lived on their land and could sell or buy them as they pleased untill after the war of 1812) has much to do with this. The mentality and conciousness of the common folk is geard toward survival at the most basic level and historically anyone who raised a voice of discontent in Russia was silenced one way or another.
I read somewhere (can't remember the source, Dan!!! ) That Marx specifically said that socialism/communism should not be tryed in Russia. That it would only work in a country with more mature social conciousness. Obviously Lenin didn't agree with that outlook...

Be careful what you say about Russia!!! When I said almost the same thing when I first joined this forum - that I hate the corruption in Russia and can't quite understand why would a person choose to live in Russia (other than beautiful RW) if they can live in a western, more civilised society I was attacked like a heretic during the inquisition time!
Some people here believe that bribes are a form of taxation! and that it's OK!

Eduard,

I debated on whether or not to respond - and then, obviously, decided to reply.

First, you whine about being "watched" like the KGB here at RWD. In point of fact, your experience at RWD has been MUCH more an indoctrination into capitalism than any kind of communist manner. My initial posts to you in another topic were to inquire about a LIE you posted (no more mincing words) on your commercial site designed to lure unsuspecting, and desperate, customers into paying you for services. It was nothing more than that - and the fact that you spent day after day arguing your case simply served to; (a) make you look worse, and (b) embittered you. Too bad. Capitalism creates opportunities, and also calls for protection against liars who would misrepresent their product/service. Like it or not, you clearly and unequivocally misrepresented your service.

In this post of mine that you initially reference, I made a point of trying to put you at ease - and your response is to adopt a victim mentality of persecution - played out again in a subsequent post.

You have had, time and time again, the opportunity to constructively participate in a manner which would demonstrate your knowledge and heritage and generosity. Yet, you consistently piss those opportunities away in playing the victim, acting hard-headed, and whining about perceived slights.

And yes, I *am* still waiting for you to clarify your comment about RWD being an "agency driven forum." An allegation having no basis in fact and is borne of your warped perspective of what has transpired here.

Eduard, you seem to display a bizarre mix of Eastern influence in that you seem to need others to create a way for you to 'save face.' Unfortunately, in this instance, you left no-one that opportunity, and you continue to dig the hole deeper and deeper and deeper. No-one can do anything to help you - except you. You are clearly demonstrating the Russian penchant for stubbornness - your victim mentality and whining comes from ... I am not sure, but it certainly is evident - AND - you have clearly learned the principle of Western shameless self-promotion. With the addition of a little humility and some significant introspection - neither of which are on display at RWD - you would potentially be a real asset. Time will tell.

All, IMO, of course.

- Dan

[Eduard]

Eduard,

I debated on whether or not to respond - and then, obviously, decided to reply.

First, you whine about being "watched" like the KGB here at RWD. In point of fact, your experience at RWD has been MUCH more an indoctrination into capitalism than any kind of communist manner. My initial posts to you in another topic were to inquire about a LIE you posted (no more mincing words) on your commercial site designed to lure unsuspecting, and desperate, customers into paying you for services. It was nothing more than that - and the fact that you spent day after day arguing your case simply served to; (a) make you look worse, and (b) embittered you. Too bad. Capitalism creates opportunities, and also calls for protection against liars who would misrepresent their product/service. Like it or not, you clearly and unequivocally misrepresented your service.

In this post of mine that you initially reference, I made a point of trying to put you at ease - and your response is to adopt a victim mentality of persecution - played out again in a subsequent post.

You have had, time and time again, the opportunity to constructively participate in a manner which would demonstrate your knowledge and heritage and generosity. Yet, you consistently piss those opportunities away in playing the victim, acting hard-headed, and whining about perceived slights.

And yes, I *am* still waiting for you to clarify your comment about RWD being an "agency driven forum." An allegation having no basis in fact and is borne of your warped perspective of what has transpired here.

Eduard, you seem to display a bizarre mix of Eastern influence in that you seem to need others to create a way for you to 'save face.' Unfortunately, in this instance, you left no-one that opportunity, and you continue to dig the hole deeper and deeper and deeper. No-one can do anything to help you - except you. You are clearly demonstrating the Russian penchant for stubbornness - your victim mentality and whining comes from ... I am not sure, but it certainly is evident - AND - you have clearly learned the principle of Western shameless self-promotion. With the addition of a little humility and some significant introspection - neither of which are on display at RWD - you would potentially be a real asset. Time will tell.

All, IMO, of course.

- Dan

I think that you totally missrepresent the situation and also are being a complete hypocrite!
In regard to "the LIE" that WAS on my site and that I CHANGED by the way once I was presented with the fact that contradicted my BELIEF that there are more single, marriage minded women than men in Russia based on personal experience and observations.
From the first time you asked me about that statistic I told you that I read it somewhere a couple of years back and couldn't remember the source. But from my own experience spending so much time in Russia and seeing with my own eyes that there are a lot more women there than men it made total sense to me therefore I had no problem posting it on my site. Once you showed me the statistical data from the reliable source that contradicted what I believed was the truth I changed the information on my site. There was never any intent on my part to deceive anyone. But there is an obvious intent on your part to make it look like I intentionally lied which is completely untrue!
Now the reason I called you a hypocrite is because you found one glitch on my site which was fixed, but you are still continuing your  attack.
Yet the website that you are promoting right here on this forum - elenasmodels.com states this on their home page:
Why Russian girls seek husbands abroad?
The reason why so many Russian girls seek husbands abroad is simple: they cannot find them in their homeland. There are less men than women in Russia (10 million less men than women of marriageable age, according to the latest census), so some women are destined to stay single.
According to you this is a bogus statistic and a lie, you insisted that it was 1:1 so why aren't you going after them, calling them liars and making them change it before you continue running their ads on your forum and referring people to them from your site?

[Admin]

I think that you totally missrepresent the situation and also are being a complete hypocrite!
In regard to "the LIE" that WAS on my site and that I CHANGED by the way once I was presented with the fact that contradicted my BELIEF that there are more single, marriage minded women than men in Russia based on personal experience and observations.
From the first time you asked me about that statistic I told you that I read it somewhere a couple of years back and couldn't remember the source. But from my own experience spending so much time in Russia and seeing with my own eyes that there are a lot more women there than men it made total sense to me therefore I had no problem posting it on my site. Once you showed me the statistical data from the reliable source that contradicted what I believed was the truth I changed the information on my site. There was never any intent on my part to deceive anyone. But there is an obvious intent on your part to make it look like I intentionally lied which is completely untrue!
Now the reason I called you a hypocrite is because you found one glitch on my site which was fixed, but you are still continuing your  attack.
Yet the website that you are promoting right here on this forum - elenasmodels.com states this on their home page:
Why Russian girls seek husbands abroad?
The reason why so many Russian girls seek husbands abroad is simple: they cannot find them in their homeland. There are less men than women in Russia (10 million less men than women of marriageable age, according to the latest census), so some women are destined to stay single.
According to you this is a bogus statistic and a lie, you insisted that it was 1:1 so why aren't you going after them, calling them liars and making them change it before you continue running their ads on your forum and referring people to them from your site?

>>I think that you totally missrepresent the situation and also are being a complete hypocrite!<<

What is to "misrepresent"? Anyone who wishes is free to review the written record for themselves.

1. I asked you a simple question.
2. You could not provide the information I requested.
3. You challenged me to provide a counter-citation - which I did.
4. You spent the better part of a week refusing to accept the REAL statistics.
5. Only after being hammered by numerous members, did you FINALLY relent and make a modest change.
6. You resort to making baseless allegations about RWD, and then lack the courage to provide any substantiation.

ALL the above are FACTS in the written record.

As for Elena's, if she were here at RWD, I would (as would others) indeed ask about the claims she makes. Elena has not made an appearance here - but if you feel that through your own independent research and study, you can prove her claim wrong (as YOUR claim was proved wrong), then by all means, post that on the forum.

Eduard, when I challenged your claims on your site, it was because I had already seen credible statistics which disproved your claims. I genuinely expected you to say something like; "Oops, you are right - I need to make a change." And that would have been the end of it.

In this thread, I seek to put you at ease - and you demonstrate a lack of capacity to be gracious and move on to a more productive outcome. That is sad.

That you call me a "hypocrite" is laughable. There was nothing hypocritical in anything I did. I merely asked a question, and the rest is history.

- Dan

[Eduard]

Dan,
I actually don't know that Elena's numbers are wrong. According to my own experience in Russia and the small numbers of marriage-minded men among the younger 24-30 population I still believe that the ratio is very different from 1:1 that you insist on.
I find that just about everything you accuse me of, you, yourself are guilty of.
You say I'm stubborn - I think you are stubborn. At least I did have the courage to admit that my numbers were wrong and I changed them on my site.
You on the other hand never even aknowledged that your 1:1 number is out of wack as well, unless you don't understand that we are not talking about a body count, rather of the ratio of MARRIAGE MINDED men to women. But I think you understand perfectly exactly what I'm talking about, don't you?
You accuse me of not dropping the subject, yet you yourself are the one who brought this argument over to this thread. I wasn't even thinking of all this anymore tlaking about Russian Government and here you come back in this thread with your accusations.
It is very convinient for you to say that since Elena from elenasmodels.com isn't taking part of the discussion you will not question her numbers and hold her to the same standart, but I find it hypocritical since you are accepting her advertising and therefore accepting and condoning her policies, numbers and business model.

Said all that I actually do not totally disagree with Elena and even though I don't think that her numbers are supported by any government census, the number of marriage minded young women in Russia is far greater than the number of men, making it possible for WM like Bruno, Ken and myself find and marry much younger and prettier women than we would be able to find in the cities that we live in.

Dan, maybe it's time to drop this subject and move on? I find it a grand waste of time since it seems like both you and I are repeating the same thing over and over again?

[Admin]

Dan,
I actually don't know that Elena's numbers are wrong. According to my own experience in Russia and the small numbers of marriage-minded men among the younger 24-30 population I still believe that the ratio is very different from 1:1 that you insist on.
I find that just about everything you accuse me of, you, yourself are guilty of.
You say I'm stubborn - I think you are stubborn. At least I did have the courage to admit that my numbers were wrong and I changed them on my site.
You on the other hand never even aknowledged that your 1:1 number is out of wack as well, unless you don't understand that we are not talking about a body count, rather of the ratio of MARRIAGE MINDED men to women. But I think you understand perfectly exactly what I'm talking about, don't you?
You accuse me of not dropping the subject, yet you yourself are the one who brought this argument over to this thread. I wasn't even thinking of all this anymore tlaking about Russian Government and here you come back in this thread with your accusations.
It is very convinient for you to say that since Elena from elenasmodels.com isn't taking part of the discussion you will not question her numbers and hold her to the same standart, but I find it hypocritical since you are accepting her advertising and therefore accepting and condoning her policies, numbers and business model.

Said all that I actually do not totally disagree with Elena and even though I don't think that her numbers are supported by any government census, the number of marriage minded young women in Russia is far greater than the number of men, making it possible for WM like Bruno, Ken and myself find and marry much younger and prettier women than we would be able to find in the cities that we live in.

Dan, maybe it's time to drop this subject and move on? I find it a grand waste of time since it seems like both you and I are repeating the same thing over and over again?

Eduard,

No, you are making a direct accusation of bias by RWD. You veiled your accusation previously, but now seem to be slightly more forthcoming. You wrote:

>>I find it hypocritical since you are accepting her advertising and therefore accepting and condoning her policies, numbers and business model.<<

Eduard, do you bother to read, or research, ANYTHING before spouting off about it?

If you bothered to read the RWD Terms of Service - which required your explicit agreement when you registered here - AND which is prominently displayed in the left frame - AND which is stickied in the Announcements forum - you would have found this language:

External Links

This site may contain links or advertisements to external websites or systems not owned or controlled by International Relations. Nothing contained in this site, or in any of the links, should be construed to be an endorsement, recommendation, or preference for a commercial product, process, or service. When you link to an external site, you are subject to the policies of the new site, including the new site's use and privacy policies.

Moreover, there are numerous instances of agencies who run advertising here - who do NOT enjoy the best reputation when it comes to the posts in the open forum.

Moreover, when you mentioned that you challenged claims made at Elena's Models, I encouraged you to post your challenge in the open forum.

And finally on this point, I myself, did not use an agency. I have never personally promoted any agency interest.

Once again - all of this is commemorated in the written record. Read it FOR UNDERSTANDING Eduard, you might be surprised at what you learn.

Back to your harping about statistics. I have stated that all the legitimate statistics I have seen to date indicate quite conclusively that no significant gender split exists between men and women from the ages of 20 to 40. For all intents and purposes, the ratio of men to women in the FSU is 1 : 1.

You, OTOH, seem to want to distort the legitimate statistics with YOUR spin on them. You once claimed you had seen statistics which claimed a ratio of 8 women for every man. You believed it because it was good for business. Eduard, any person with a shred of an analytical (and rational) mind, would instantly recognize that kind of "statistic" as utter horsesh!t. That you posted it on your site - and then defended it vigorously in the face of compelling presentation of legitimate statistics is ..... either very odd, or indicative of an agenda.

Now - have you bothered to try to check or confirm the referenced census values cited on Elena's Models site? Do you have reason to believe they are inaccurate?

If Elena were here, I would ask - but since she is not, and since I have NOT taken the time to try to rationalize her claims, I do not feel compelled to challenge it. In the case where YOU were citing bogus "statistics", I had, in fact, seen compelling studies and I knew you were in error.

Eduard, as I have tried to tell you many times - you could have (and still could) come out of this looking really sharp - as an open-minded businessman who is fallible just like the rest of us, and willing to admit and correct a mistake. Most people resonate with that.

As it is - you do not look like that at all.

You appear, to me at least, to be petty, stubborn, intractible, accusatory and insulting.

What if .... one of your clients decides they do not want to do things YOUR way mid-stream? What if .... they come to RWD and write about their choice to depart from your "system"? Would you react in the manner you have here? Defend your "system" and accuse the other party of "crucifying", "hypocrisy" and other pejorative allegations - as you have done here?

Those are the sorts of things everyone should think about before engaging someone's services - yours or Elena's Models or anyone else.

- Dan

[Eduard]

Dan,
I'm still not clear why you keep saying all that. I thought that I explicetly conceded that my numbers were wrong according to statistical body count. You challenged me to change that on my website if presented with proof and I did change that on my web site. I honestly think that that should have been the end of it. Yet you keep accusing me of lieing for the benefit of my business. I don't think that weather it's 1:8 or 1:3 makes much difference. I think Elena is right that there are many more marriage minded women in Russia than men, and I'm not the one challenging her stats, YOU ARE! with your 1:1 stats.
As I said many times I conceded that the official number of men and women born there are almost the same, but I will still say that the number of marriage minded females age 25-26 is a LOT larger than a number of marriage minded males age 25-26
Will you not agree with that?
And by the way, the future of Russian government is wonderful!!! The government officials will be rich beyond belief, live happily and prosper! And the males in the Russian government have a girl for every day of the week and 2 girls for saturdays which brings it back to 1:8

[Admin]

Dan,
I'm still not clear why you keep saying all that. I thought that I explicetly conceded that my numbers were wrong according to statistical body count. You challenged me to change that on my website if presented with proof and I did change that on my web site. I honestly think that that should have been the end of it. Yet you keep accusing me of lieing for the benefit of my business. I don't think that weather it's 1:8 or 1:3 makes much difference. I think Elena is right that there are many more marriage minded women in Russia than men, and I'm not the one challenging her stats, YOU ARE! with your 1:1 stats.
As I said many times I conceded that the official number of men and women born there are almost the same, but I will still say that the number of marriage minded females age 25-26 is a LOT larger than a number of marriage minded males age 25-26
Will you not agree with that?
And by the way, the future of Russian government is wonderful!!! The government officials will be rich beyond belief, live happily and prosper! And the males in the Russian government have a girl for every day of the week and 2 girls for saturdays which brings it back to 1:8

Hmmmm ....

I see logic and reading for comprehension is NOT your strong suit.

You wrote:
>>As I said many times I conceded that the official number of men and women born there are almost the same, but I will still say that the number of marriage minded females age 25-26 is a LOT larger than a number of marriage minded males age 25-26
Will you not agree with that?<<

No Eduard, I do NOT agree with that because it is ambiguous (how much is a "LOT"?!?) and self-serving (for you, that is). I have not seen any evidence to support it - though I have welcomed your development of the statistics to support your belief. Over in the other topic, I provided you a recipe for developing the requisite statistics that you so obviously seek. Check here for the details -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6401.msg123636#msg123636

Did you somehow miss that post? If not, have you conducted the research? If so, what were the results you gathered?

You wrote:
>>I think Elena is right that there are many more marriage minded women in Russia than men, and I'm not the one challenging her stats, YOU ARE! with your 1:1 stats.<<

Eduard, what you obviously fail to see is that you are comparing apples with oranges. You now want to put your 'spin' on it and lay claim to a gender disparity based on your modifier to the statistics looking ONLY at "marriage minded women". Have you done anything to base your conclusion on?

- Dan

[Eduard]

And by the way, the future of Russian government is wonderful!!! The government officials will be rich beyond belief, live happily and prosper! And the males in the Russian government have a girl for every day of the week and 2 girls for saturdays which brings it back to 1:8

In case someone is wondering what the heck this is about and thinking "blin, u nego krisha poehala" - Dan moved it from the Future of Russian Government thread, and rather than continuing the argument comparing apples and oranges I decided to bring it back to the subject of the thread...and as soon as I did it was moved to this new thread...

[Admin]

In case someone is wondering what the heck this is about and thinking "blin, u nego krisha poehala" - Dan moved it from the Future of Russian Government thread, and rather than continuing the argument comparing apples and oranges I decided to bring it back to the subject of the thread...and as soon as I did it was moved to this new thread...

Indeed, I did move it.

The other topic did not benefit by this pollution.

- Dan

[Jet]

... and rather than continuing the argument comparing apples and oranges...

Sounds like you are comparing apples to marriage minded apples.
How do you determine the exact number of marriage minded apples per bushel basket?  ???
Are ALL the marriage minded apples actually interested in life long relationships, or do some of the apples use that as an excuse to transport themselves to a nicer orchard?

[William3rd]

RWDs carbon footprint could be drastically reduced and we could help control global warming with but one simple act, Dan. . . . .

[I/O]

I've long considered Elena's to be one of the better website's around, (Although I never met my wife there) however, I have also long thought Elena was one of the best at putting an attractive spin on the simplicity of finding a Russian woman of quality.

Her 88-100 claim would indicate roughly 10 million excess women in Russia. Obviously her figures are at very least way out of date, if they were ever accurate during the lifetime of her website, which I doubt. "Latest census"? Which census? Conducted by whom? Most of her notes skirt around this quite neatly. Thus I have always seen it as sales talk. One should not forget Elena's academic qualifications.........marketing. Nevertheless, any thinking person involved in this pursuit should be savvy enough to discard most of that and simply use the site for what it is worth.

No statistical or evidential data supports the huge excess of women in Russia today. Anecdotally, I can't even come close to seeing it, not only in Russia, but much of central and Eastern Europe also. Marriage minded? Man minded? One can play with suspect unsubstantiated evidence for ever and make water look like oil if they waste enough time on it.

The reality (Disclaimer) AS I SEE IT, is the numbers of marriageable women doesn't greatly exceed men, if at all, therefore, practicalities are such that generally speaking, those seeking marriage to a foreign man are doing it for other reasons than local availability.

What are those reasons? I suggest the vast majority who are aggressively seeking have "Trade Up" (Lifestyle, opportunity, financial, security etc) in at least part, if not most of their equation. Among those who are only passively seeking, where I believe the majority of the real quality is, one can expect to find a good degree of reservation regarding either foreign men and or leaving their homeland.

The point being, to chisel a good woman out of Russia in today's climate is no turkey shoot. One can have all the fancy systems and or programs they like, the bottom line is that in her private moments, a decent woman WILL consider all the implications and on balance, in most cases, the chips fall on the side of staying in her homeland. Now, if the guy happens to be smart, lucky, articulate, romantic, spectacular or whatever enough in her eyes to win her to the point of falling in love with him, then all the statistics and logic go right out the window. She is then his to keep and he is hers to keep. A very different picture from the 88-100 / 10 million excess, rah rah, you can do it, 8-1 bullschit.

Eduard, IMO you are backing the wrong horse here. It's your business, it's your future, it's your story, however the line you persist in pushing is only going to be accepted by the naive and or socially inept. Albeit perhaps the majority of the market, but ultimately that end of any market is suspect financially. If I was in your boots, I'd be looking to the top end of the market, cut the BS and charge for accurate information and quality service. I suspect you'd find your cash flow and clientele being a lot more reliable.

I/O

[Jet]

The reality (Disclaimer) AS I SEE IT, is the numbers of marriageable women doesn't greatly exceed men, if at all, therefore, practicalities are such that generally speaking, those seeking marriage to a foreign man are doing it for other reasons than local availability.

What are those reasons? I suggest the vast majority who are aggressively seeking have "Trade Up" (Lifestyle, opportunity, financial, security etc) in at least part, if not most of their equation. Among those who are only passively seeking, where I believe the majority of the real quality is, one can expect to find a good degree of reservation regarding either foreign men and or leaving their homeland.

The point being, to chisel a good woman out of Russia in today's climate is no turkey shoot. One can have all the fancy systems and or programs they like, the bottom line is that in her private moments, a decent woman WILL consider all the implications and on balance, in most cases, the chips fall on the side of staying in her homeland. Now, if they guy happens to be smart, lucky, articulate, romantic, spectacular or whatever enough in her eyes to win her to the point of falling in love with him, then all the statistics and logic go right out the window.

Very insightful, and it meshes perfectly with what my wife has mentioned in our conversations on the subject. In her little town there was no shortage of men that wanted to get married (even to a woman pushing 30 with a youngster in tow). She was not aggressively seeking a mate from abroad, merely trying to practice English with a native speaker - never listed with any agency and couldn't imagine herself signing up at any point in the future. She had serious reservations about leaving her family behind and strenuously weighed the benefits for her son against the drawbacks of leaving the rest of her family to move half way across the globe. As wonderful as our life together has been, even now nearly 5 yrs. later, she can get nostalgic from time to time and struggles with the question of whether she did what was in everyone's best interest, or merely in her own. Had she not thrown logic out the window and followed her heart, I've got little doubt that she'd still be living in her same apartment, in her same home town right now. She wasn't really marriage minded when we met, but I must have made some sort of favorable impression, because she's sitting here beside me now 

[Misha]

That is not my wife's experience. She was not desperate, but she definitely felt that there was a shortage of good men interested in marriage. There was no shortage of married men hitting on her, and no shortage of less than ideal men who drank too much or did not work, but she clearly felt there was a shortage of decent men who were looking to get married. 

[Jet]

 but she clearly felt there was a shortage of decent men who were looking to get married.
 

Eduard seems to like playing semantics when trying to quantify his arguments 
His theory is rooted in "marriage minded" not quality. If you look at the bottom of my prior post I wrote
"I've got little doubt that she'd still be living in her same apartment, in her same home town right now."
The reason for that is that the "marriage minded" men in her area did not meet her criteria for what she wanted in a life partner. She once told me that before we met in London, she fully expected to remain single for the rest of her life after the divorce with her Ex was finalized. That didn't stop the marriage minded local guys from chasing after her 

[Misha]

Eduard seems to like playing semantics when trying to quantify his arguments 

That didn't stop the marriage minded local guys from chasing after her 

It was my post that you replied to and I am not Eduard. From my wife's experience there were a lot of men chasing her, and trust me they had something other than marriage on their mind 

[Eduard]

Very insightful, and it meshes perfectly with what my wife has mentioned in our conversations on the subject. In her little town there was no shortage of men that wanted to get married (even to a woman pushing 30 with a youngster in tow). She was not aggressively seeking a mate from abroad, merely trying to practice English with a native speaker - never listed with any agency and couldn't imagine herself signing up at any point in the future. She had serious reservations about leaving her family behind and strenuously weighed the benefits for her son against the drawbacks of leaving the rest of her family to move half way across the globe. As wonderful as our life together has been, even now nearly 5 yrs. later, she can get nostalgic from time to time and struggles with the question of whether she did what was in everyone's best interest, or merely in her own. Had she not thrown logic out the window and followed her heart, I've got little doubt that she'd still be living in her same apartment, in her same home town right now. She wasn't really marriage minded when we met, but I must have made some sort of favorable impression, because she's sitting here beside me now 

Jet,
your wife sounds like a winner! She is exactly the type of woman that I look for for my clients - who is not interested in moving anywhere, selfsufficient, family oriented, for whom it would be a difficult decision to leave her family, friends and culture behind. Yet if a woman like that falls in love with you, she will follow you anywhere, even if you happen to live in N. Korea. My wife is very similar, except she didn't have a child untill she met me. She does like it here where we live, near the Gulf of Mexico, but she also misses her family terribly. She also wishes that she had a couple of her close friends and a coupe of collegues from the clinic where she used to work here so that we can all hang out together. I personally know everyone who is so dear to her and i can perfectly understand why she feels that way. They are awesome people!

[Eduard]

That is not my wife's experience. She was not desperate, but she definitely felt that there was a shortage of good men interested in marriage. There was no shortage of married men hitting on her, and no shortage of less than ideal men who drank too much or did not work, but she clearly felt there was a shortage of decent men who were looking to get married. 

This has been my wive's experience as well, and the experience of most RW that I personally know. They all say that it is very hard (some say impossible) to find "dostoynogo muzhchinu dlya sozdaniya semyi" (disclaimer: personal experience, no statistical data available)

[Shadow]

Combining the experiences of the spouses on board here we can say that there seems to be no shortage of men pursuing the women. However the women that became interested in a foreign partner did have a problem finding someone that met their standards for quality.

I think that this is the true issue of why women are ready to accept a foreign partner. Not because local men are not interested in them, or because there are no local men. But because they have some qualities or achievements that make it hard for them to trust that local men are after their soul and not after other things.

[I/O]

Not because local men are not interested in them, or because there are no local men. But because they have some qualities or achievements that make it hard for them to trust that local men are after their soul and not after other things.

We can dress it up as nicely as we like, IMO the number one motivator for a Russian woman to marry a foreign man is possible "Trade up". Therein lies the trick of finding out what she actually sees as a "Trade up" before you find out the hard way it isn't your heart.

That "Trade up" might be the best man she can find or it might just be the best location or best wallet or best whatever. Splashing fanciful numbers and get hitched quick schemes around is not, IMO, the way to encourage guys to spend the time sorting right through the available pool.

I/O

[Shadow]

We can dress it up as nicely as we like, IMO the number one motivator for a Russian woman to marry a foreign man is possible "Trade up". Therein lies the trick of finding out what she actually sees as a "Trade up" before you find out the hard way it isn't your heart.

That "Trade up" might be the best man she can find or it might just be the best location or best wallet or best whatever. Splashing fanciful numbers and get hitched quick schemes around is not, IMO, the way to encourage guys to spend the time sorting right through the available pool.

I/O

If we follow those words, the men who go looking for a foreign wife are looking for a "Trade up" as well.

[Jet]

Shadow,
I don't think that was ever in question! If mmen could find what they were looking for locally, why would they have any iniative to subject themselves to all the BS associated with the immigration regulations, and take the extrodinary gambles associated with searching abroad?