PreNups, Trusts, Offshore Accounts & Protecting yourself

[jb]

Yeah,,, but.....

Was that previous pre-nup done with a woman from the FSU?

All the Russian woman has to do is imply that she HAD to sign the paper or the wedding was off, and the court will rule "duress", and throw it all out of court. Even better, that she didn't fully understand what she was signing because it wasn't in her native language and you are up the **** creek without a paddle.   Better get a seperate Russian speaking lawyer for her, hash it out with your lawyer, get it all on videotape, and maybe, just maybe it will hold up....  

But probably not...

Honestly, TigerPaws, I've been sitting here reading all this tripe you've written and it becomes clearer and clearer that you haven't a clue. Pre-nups are for dummies who can't find a woman who loves them for who they are.  You actually expect your new spouse to screw you over in a divorce sooner or later. That's a defeatest attitude.

I feel sorry for you.  I'm sure glad I don't have such an agreement with my wife.

[jb]

Just so everyone knows,,, I don't have much regard for old TigerPaws in any case.  In my humble opinion, anyone who needs a pre-nup hasn't spent enough time with his intended to know if she loves him, or loves his money.  

One week wonder time??

Get your act together and then come and offer advice to the newbies.  Until then, keep your advice to yourself.

[TigerPaws]

Just so everyone knows,,, I don't have much regard for old TigerPaws in any case. In my humble opinion, anyone who needs a pre-nup hasn't spent enough time with his intended to know if she loves him, or loves his money.

One week wonder time??

Get your act together and then come and offer advice to the newbies. Until then, keep your advice to yourself.

jb,

 I normally do not respond to such ill informed people with such closed minds as yourself, there is little use, so if you do not like this thread simply do not read or post to it. It is obvious you did not read my suggestion to Turboguy as I strongly suggested he have the pre marrage contract translated into Russian and have an attorney in Russia explain the contract to his lady. Additionally if you had bothered to read the story of my lady and myself you would have known that we spent a great deal of time together before filing for the K1 but of course you did not otherise you would not have made the one wee wonder comment.

 Pre marrage contracts are an age old tradition as I have said before my father and his father before him had a prenup in place before they were married and both marrages lasted until they passed away. In the case of my first marrage the prenup made what would have been an expensive and difficult divorce a simple matter of fulfilling the terms of the contract at least in California it was simple. Sure she tried to contest the contract but it was well written and the court ruled the contract was valid, end of story.

 You may not like or agree with the premise of this thread and that is fine but please keep you presonal attacks to yourself because you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Turboguy]

I think part of the advantage of a prenuptual agreement is psycological.   There are some women who will believe that  this is what the arrangements are and accept it.  There is where the advantage is.   

It is probably going to take a great deal of care and effort to write one and handle it in such a way that a very good lawyer could not overturn it.   I think if you do exercise some care it is far better to have one than not. 

I am lucky that in Pennsylvania as of the last I knew a divorced wife was entitiled to half the increase in the net worth of the couple that occured during the mariatial period so it can be a lot cheaper here than some places with community property laws.   When I was divorced 15 years ago we did not even have alimony but I volunteered for it.   I belive I have a lot less assets to protect than TigerPaws probably does but there is still a substantial amount of things she could go after and I am better off making an attempt to protect them.

I think Russian gals are wonderful or I wouldn't be chasing after them however I think a lot of them can fall in the catagory of very hard headed, or put more politely determined.    There is also the old and very true "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"  

I had talked in a post a few times about the Ukranian gal I have tried to help and lived with for a month or so last year.   She was getting divorced from a guy and run up a helatious amount of legal fees.   I belive she was somewhere between $ 20,000 and $ 30,000 in fees she was going to have to pay for.   On the hard headed part she had about $ 5,000 in legal fees arguing over a snow shovel.  After all it was her snow shovel and she was not going to give it up no matter how much she had to spend to get it.  This is the girl that is working in a 24 hour photo lab for very low wages.   I was in WalMart tonight, nice snow shovels are on sale for $ 5.00.   No matter how much you do or don't have to loose if you can make a divorce a little easier it is with the time and investment.

I think we all make some posts that someone else is going to think is stupid, but I still think it is better if we attack the ideas and not the person.   One of the things that make forums like this interesting is the different ideas people have and the different ways people view things. 

[KenC]

I think that any man (or woman) with subtantial wealth that marrys without a prenupt is a fool.  Even though most states have laws set forth as Turbo suggests, a prenupt lays out the terms for valuation to apply such laws.  So much of the time, aggrevation and money spent during a divorce is put toward the two sides agreeing to how to put a value on things is eliminated with a prenupt.  A prenupt can also be a simple way to exclude a family business or inheritence there by perserving it for your children.  It kind of forces people to be rational in a very irrational time.  No $20K expenditures fighting over a $5 snow shovel.

That being said,

I think part of the advantage of a prenuptual agreement is psycological.

Having a prenupt is more of a disadvantage to the psycological well being of the marriage.  It opens up the concept that the marriage could fail.  Even though any logical person should be able to admit that any marriage has an element of risk to it, the pre-marriage time is usually a fairytale time. A prenupt brings that time back to the real world.

I have had two divorces.  One where there was subtantial wealth and children involved (and no prenupt).  Another without children, but with a prenupt.  The first was a hellish procedure that I would not wish on anyone.  In that case, a prenupt would not have been of much value because of the length of the marriage (20+years), the value of the assets at the beginning of the marriage ($0) and the fact that children were involved.

The prenupt I had in place for my second divorce simplified everything.  It limited the areas which could be debated and therefore limited the legal fees to a minimum.  All good things for both sides as I see it.

I didn't see the need for a prenupt in my current marriage of 6 years even though by comparison it is probably the riskiest of all due to the age difference (25 yrs).  Why?  Because of the low level of assets to protect.  I am happy to say that there are now subtantial assets, but these assets were gained during the marriage and therefore my wife would and should participate in the division, should that ever be necessary.  BTW, my second wife (American) and my current wife (Russian) offered to sign a prenupt.  I took my second wife up on her offer, but not my current wife.

KenC[/font][/size][/font]

[jb]

Turbo Guy,

I hope you have enough good sense to not follow the advice to have a Russian lawyer (in Russia) get involved in a pre-nup agreement. The very first thing an American divorce attorney would do is question the Russian lawyer's legal credentials.  This would almost certainly get the pre-nup thrown out.  Russian lawyers are not allowed to practice law in the USA, nothing he put his name to would be a legal instrument in any court on this country.  

Either you love this woman enough to stand up before the preacher and take the vows, or you don't.  If the answer to that qusetion is a qualified "maybe", then you shouldn't even be thinking about getting married.

[TigerPaws]

Turbo Guy,

I hope you have enough good sense to not follow the advice to have a Russian lawyer (in Russia) get involved in a pre-nup agreement. The very first thing an American divorce attorney would do is question the Russian lawyer's legal credentials. This would almost certainly get the pre-nup thrown out. Russian lawyers are not allowed to practice law in the USA, nothing he put his name to would be a legal instrument in any court on this country.

Either you love this woman enough to stand up before the preacher and take the vows, or you don't. If the answer to that qusetion is a qualified "maybe", then you shouldn't even be thinking about getting married.

 Yet once AGAIN jb fails to read (or chooses to ignore the information), 

 Have the agreement written by an attorney who specializes in such things then have the contract translated into Russian and reviewed by a Russian/American attorney here in America (as a side note there are many in NYC who will give you a referal to someone in your home state). If you plan on escorting your lady from her home country to America bring the contract with you so the two of you can have an attorney in her home counrty go over the contract with her, there are several in Moscow who deal with such things.
 As I said before jb if you do not like the thread do not bother to read or post to it.

[Vaughn]

Michael,

  It seems as though the argument boils down to
this: unconditional love vs. conditional love. The former was necessary for me to even begin this pursuit. For some, protection of previously-held assets proves a comfortable foundation; for others, it's a cracked slab on which
little can be built. No argument like "Yes, but..."
can change that.

  If I were taking on a business partner it'd be a different story.

Vaughn

[Turboguy]

Well Vaughn I have to agree with what you said about "It seems as though the argument boils down to this: unconditional love vs. conditional love.    That is an important factor and I don't question your unconditional love for your gal or my unconditional love for mine.  

Some of these gals are good at keeping thier feelings in.    I am sure if she says she loves me she means it, maybe.    Actually when we first got serious I was dead set against a PreNup.   I felt so sure that what we had was so perfect that it would last forever.   That if I lost her I had lost everything important to me.  As I made trips and got to know her better, I can see a more of an impetuous nature, a stubborness, a lot of charactoristics that make her interesting and special and a definate individual but I can see ways she is going to be challenging.  I am content to take on that challence but the truth of it is that I am not looking at this relationship with rose colored glasses.   I think it can be the most wonderful relationship of my life.  I can see that it is going to take a lot of effort and committments on both our parts.   I am content with that.   My gal is very private but I hope she is too.  

As far as it boiling down to something it may boil down more to what we have to protect.    I think most people persuing this course for their life are not operating on a shoe string.   Some may have more than others, some perhaps lots more.   Tiger Paws for one my have a lot to protect.    Someone living in an rented apartment, driving a leased car, who has not had time to accumulate a lot of retirement or investment worth may not have the need of a PreNup.  

For me I have a businss that would be my main concern.  Both my kids work in it and at least for some extent I think with the efforts they have put forth they are entitled to some kind of future with it.   If I am correct on how I see things going with that business I can see a lot of increase in value over the time the marriage could be in effect even if it did not work out well.   She could easily stay married 3 years and walk away with 7 figures.   That is why I have some interest in a PreNup.   

[Leslie]

In the 5+ years I have been around the RW boards I have NEVER seen this topic discussed sensibly. The discussion always breaks up into the usual factions:-

The Romantics
 
These people are emotionally opposed to ANY premarital contract.  This faction is impervious to logical argument.  This is to be expected as their decision is made from the heart not the head…

FSU Women
 
If you read RWA "just us girls" forum you will see where this faction is coming from.  A lot of weird, damaged guys get involved in this process.  A pre nuptial agreement for these guys is an essential part of their control strategy.  "Divorce me and you won't get a dime! You will be on the streets"  I am sure you can imagine this situation.  Fortunately for the women involved this type of "cheap" pre marital agreement will never stand up to legal scrutiny.  I use the term "cheap" in two senses.  First the pre nuptial agreement itself  was written for little money and second it offers little or nothing to the woman in the event of a divorce.  In many European countries such a blatantly unfair contract could be judged to be "coercive"  - a criminal offence.  (felony)…..

Regular Western Men
 
Most guys don't have lots of assets to protect. Depends on where you live but the protection given by the local divorce laws will suffice.  In most of Europe and some states of the USA you basically retain possession of the assts you bring to a marriage (Community Property etc.)  You will have to pay for your kids in any event.

Of course in this situation you may wish to draw up a premarital agreement but for a lot of guys half of not very much is not worth worrying about.  Better to spend the time and money finding a good woman who loves you……

Rich Western Men
 
If you are rich then you won't be listening to any of the blather you read on any internet bulletin board.  You will consult with your accountants and lawyers.  They will INSIST you have a premarital contract.  It matters not where your prospective wife comes from or how much you love her.  Money is money.  They will also tell you to be relatively generous in the terms of the agreement.  Generous agreements are much harder to contest.   A gift of $50K on marriage and a further accrual of $50K per year would be quite normal.  Of course these figures depend on the extent of your fortune and where you reside.  The actual detail of these contracts is often complex as provision must be made for children etc. The legal fees for writing such a contract can be substantial but once written these contracts are binding.  Sarah Ferguson got less than a million $ from Prince Andrew.  Jane Fonda only got 1 million $ from Ted Turner.

Simple fact is that if you present an FSU woman with a contract like this in a sensitive way she will almost certainly sign it.  After all in terms of her current situation she instantly becomes  rich!.  On divorce she would have enough money to either set herself up in her  adoptive country or she could return home a rich woman.

From the man's viewpoint settling a divorce for less than $250K when you are worth several million dollars plus is a way better option than being sued - particularly if you have to pay ALL the legal costs….

These factions will never agree. 

There is no basis for agreement as each group has it's own very different  judgement criteria.

 

 

 

 

 

[TigerPaws]

Very well put Leslie, Thank You

[Erwin]

My woman asked me if I was going to have her sign a prenuptial agreement.  I told her heck yes.  She said what will it say.  I said if she even looks at other men she is to pay me US $5 million; if I look at other women, she will forgive me and love me even more.  She laughs so hard that tears were coming out of her eyes...

[TigerPaws]

Erwin,

 She sounds like a good woman.  

[OhioGuyRob]

Your's is a standard knee-jerk reaction to those who do not understand pre-nups.  Dave, what if you have children from a previous marriage?  You have a MORAL OBLIGATION to protect the interests of your bloodline.  Are you aware that without a prenup or any additional legal documentation, if you marry  another person and die during that marriage that without a will that spells out the dispotiontin of your assest your new wife gets EVERYTHING which in effect cuts your children out of everything they should have inherited.  No amount of legal wrangling is going to get them ANYTHING either.

Your view is overly simplistic and naive.  If you've never been married and you dont have much at risk, then you dont need to even consider a prenup.  If you have children from a previous marriage that you love YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION to protect there inheritance.

[jb]

Have you guys ever thought of moving to a State which observes "Community Property" law?

It would render your pre-nups moot.

[TigerPaws]

Have you guys ever thought of moving to a State which observes "Community Property" law?

It would render your pre-nups moot.

 Pernups are not a moot point in states which observe community property, in fact a well written prenup will save a great deal of problems should the marrage go wrong. Case in point my divorce in California a number of years ago, the prenup clearly spelled out what would happen should a divorce be necessary. The division of assets was not by any measure equal but that is not what the marrage contract spelled out, she got what the agreement stated and nothing more.

 

 

[Turboguy]

I mentioned this on the visa topic but since this is the spot we are discussing pre-nups I will talk about it some more.    I had made up my mind thanks to Tiger Paws and some of the discussions here that I wanted a pre-nup.   I was hoping my gal would not consider it a lack of trust or something.

Well, today she sorta asked me for a pre-nup.   What she said was she was really concerned that if things didn't work out for us that she would end up back there and have a hard time getting her life going again.   I, being the gentleman that I am, said I would be willing for us both to sign a very binding agreement that would guarantee her that if we got married and it did not work out and she went back to Russia she would be guaranteed enough money that she would be able to re-establish her life. 

This seemed to ease her mind a lot.   I think most of us approach the subject of a pre-nup with our future brides with concept of protecting what we have worked hard for all our lives.   I think we might find it an easier sell if we talk about it from the standpoint of assuring they have some assets to rebuild their life with.   My gal was making $ 200.00 a month.    It won't take a lot to make her happy and it sure would be an easier sell with me talking about how it protects her which it does.   Just thought that was worth throwing out. 

[TigerPaws]

I realize some people may not want to hear this but for those that thought I was a bit over caucoutious.

Read this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10454584/ 

[TigerPaws]

 I find it interesting that SO many people have read this thread and the link I posted, maybe there is hope for those who feel they have nothing to loose or to protect. 

[Casanova]

A consult with a good attorney well versed with the laws in your local area/state/region would be in order, as well as a good strategy for changing circumstances.  Better yet, and IN ADDITION to this, obtain and study well the W.G. Hill books, now on C.D. for $100, as well as the new BBBB or "Bye Bye Big Brother" from Expat World Newsletter, in their products section.  Although expensive, this volumous collection of asset protection is perhaps the most intelligent, little known, yet cunning, and helpful information on the planet for one TRULY serious about hiding their wealth, and protecting their "assETS" from both wives, ex-wives, and various government agencies, etc. etc.  It's SUPER good information, and VERY hard to find - the concept originally is known at "PT" - (most lawyers and accountants have no knowledge of these strategies):

Index

[Warren]

Frank:  Yea, I married an Ukraine gal that used "sex, lies" and dumped me after 4 months and $80,000 short.  I will have a good "pre-nup" the next time I marry a RW gal !

        Warren 

[BC]

Warren,

PreNups are not insurance policies.

Where did the 80K go?

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]BC,

 I have always maintained that a prenup is but one arrow in a man quiver to protect himself should things go terribly wrong in a relationship. The level of protection a man may need is entirely dependent on his situation and his exposure comfort level, if he has a lot to loose then he may need to resort to more drastic measures in order to protect himself.

[/size][/color]

[Warren]

Hello BC:  In clothes, jewlery, etc.

        Warren

[Warren]

Casanove :  I have read H.G. Hills books on "banking" and "Second Passport". They are out of date !  Try the internet newsletter "Q" from Quester Press or PT Shamrock's newsletter.  If you really want to know about how our (U.S.) privacy is eroding, see the mid-January Shmrock newsletter.  It is truly "1984".

       Warren