political wives?

[Eduard]

I think this quote from my client's correspondence with a Russian girl is very descriptive...these are short excerpts that could be gereric so I see no harm in posting them here:

Client: "Why are you on the internet looking for a man? Moscow is a big city with many men. What type of man are looking for? What do you think of American men?
I look forward to hearing from you"
RW: "American men? hmmmm they ... speak English very well  
In Russia there are many stereotypes about American men.I think, it is only prejudice! All people are different, it isn't depent on the ethnicity."

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy, can you provide more information? What do you have to substantiate your claim that Politkovskaya was financed by the United States government. How was she working for the United States? She was a journalist working for Russian newspapers. That is not working for the United States. She published books in Russian, and some were translated in English and published in English. Is this working for the United States? How exactly was she being financed by the United States? It would be interesting to know how you came to your conclusions. Is this the message that is being communicated on Russian television? 

Cos she was hating everything russian and was always spreading her paid american views I guess , she was expressing american point of view

moreover who says she was ever russian ........

Russian person who would be expressing such point of view would probably killhimself or would be considered such a betrayer

[Jazzyclassy]

well what am trying to say  is that if she had trully russian spirit she would never had such a point of view, she probably would pretend to suit american people, but deep in her heart she would always cherrish her patriotic values.

[KenC]

well what am trying to say  is that if she had trully russian spirit she would never had such a point of view, she probably would pretend to suit american people, but deep in her heart she would always cherrish her patriotic values.

Jazzy,
So, your proof of your previous statement:

yes Sure but everybody knows that Anna politkovskaya was working for america who paid her and she was always writing pro american articles

is that her views differed from yours?    How about substantiating your outragous claims with some facts please?
KenC

[mischief]

well what am trying to say  is that if she had trully russian spirit she would never had such a point of view, she probably would pretend to suit american people, but deep in her heart she would always cherrish her patriotic values.

Jazzy, you make an impression of a too young or/and too immature person...

[Misha]

well what am trying to say  is that if she had trully russian spirit she would never had such a point of view, she probably would pretend to suit american people, but deep in her heart she would always cherrish her patriotic values.

So this means that a true Russian should never criticize the Russian state? A true Russian should never criticize Putin or who else is in power?

[KenC]

This is quite true for residents of pretty much any nation on earth. We all tend feel more justified about criticizing our homeland but don't let anyone else do it as they don't have that right since they don't live here (or where ever you are).

The difference I see is that some take this a bit too far in their reactions towards anyone saying anything bad about their country whereas most in the West take it with a grain of salt.

FWIW

Catz,
I think this is where our American freedom to criticize our own government and our willingness to do so, works in our disfavor.  In other countries, such public criticisms are frowned upon and never see the light of day.  Here we hang our dirt laundry out for the world to see.
KenC

[Misha]

Cos she was hating everything russian and was always spreading her paid american views I guess , she was expressing american point of view

moreover who says she was ever russian ........

Russian person who would be expressing such point of view would probably killhimself or would be considered such a betrayer

Who exactly in the United States was paying for her views? Why is she a betrayer? Is it not possible for a Russian to disagree with the policies and practices of the government? Is any critique of the Russian government enough to disqualify a person as not Russian?

[Jazzyclassy]

Who exactly in the United States was paying for her views? Why is she a betrayer? Is it not possible for a Russian to disagree with the policies and practices of the government? Is any critique of the Russian government enough to disqualify a person as not Russian?

It is all possible, I do not know who was paying her , but it was obvious she was getting funds from the West

I am happy that you have your own view on this topic, please stay with this view forever

let me have my point of view

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy, you make an impression of a too young or/and too immature person...

and you make an impression of a very old  or too mature person

with high moral values

I hope you are happy now 

[catzenmouse]

Catz,
I think this is where our American freedom to criticize our own government and our willingness to do so, works in our disfavor.  In other countries, such public criticisms are frowned upon and never see the light of day.  Here we hang our dirt laundry out for the world to see.
KenC

That added to the impression that the US is so shallow minded in that all we talk about is American Idol, Survivor, Britney Paris Spears Hilton, and overpriced steroid using sports stars makes it hardly surprising that much of the world has a bad view of this country.

[Gator]

I have read enough.  sheeeesh. 

No one is this stupid, first to say it and then to expect anyone to believe it. 

She must be sitting at her computer with a big grin as she watches gullible Americans react to her nonsense.

[catzenmouse]

No one is this stupid, first to say it and then to expect anyone to believe it.

I've got two words to prove that some people ARE that stupid:

     Britney     Spears

 

But I agree with your synopsis. Reading this constant stream of verbal diarrhea is a waste of cyber ink.  (add my best imitation of kingly entrance music) Click --> Ignore

Ahhh.. doesn't that feel better now... 

[KenC]

It is all possible, I do not know who was paying her , but it was obvious she was getting funds from the West

I am happy that you have your own view on this topic, please stay with this view forever

let me have my point of view

Jazzy,
Assumptions and hypothetical opinions are not factual representations as you present them.  You really just do not know any facts about the situation at all.  At best you are perpetuating an unsubstantiated rumor.
KenC

[BC]

Cos she was hating everything russian and was always spreading her paid american views I guess , she was expressing american point of view

moreover who says she was ever russian ........

Russian person who would be expressing such point of view would probably killhimself or would be considered such a betrayer

From the wiki link posted one page back..

Early life

Politkovskaya was born Anna Mazepa in New York City in 1958 to Soviet Ukrainian parents, both of whom served as diplomats to the United Nations. She grew up in Moscow and graduated from the Moscow State University Department of Journalism in 1980. She defended a thesis about the poetry of Marina Tsvetaeva. Politkovskaya was a citizen of both the United States of America and the Russian Federation.[3]

I don't know how long she was in the US, or if even she was a citizen as most children born of parents with diplomatic passports do not acquire citizenship.  Maybe her stay / country of birth did leave impressions? 

[Lit_1nce]

Three possibilities.. True belief, Devils advocate, or Troll.

Someone who believes something, usually has a reason for their beliefs.. and would explain them. Their facts may be right or wrong, but there is a reason they believe them... words like "maybe" or "possibly" to explain.. are not beliefs.

A devils advocate doesn't believe it, but takes a position with plausible explanations and facts to state their case.. It can make for some interesting exploration of an issue.

I see no problem with someone playing the Devils advocate.. but there comes a point where the line is crossed and you start thinking Troll...

A Troll makes outrageous statements with no explanation or facts.. merely to get a response.. nothing is gained, waste of time.




 

[BC]

One official of the Federal Security Bureau, the contemporary version of the former Soviet KGB, told MediaGuardian.co.uk on condition of anonymity that the most likely version is that Politkovskaya was killed for working on an article harmful to someone's economic interests in Chechnya, probably in connection with the arms trade.

He said: "If you are dealing with a crime in modern Russia, don't look for ideological motives, but rather for financial interests."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/oct/11/pressandpublishing.russia

I keep remembering that phrase... 'Follow the money'...

Of course, here we can only speculate.. and it is getting a bit weary watching folks argue so much over so little..

I find Jazzy's posts interesting and they prompted me to dig a bit deeper into the subject.  Although I may not agree 100 percent, or even 50, Troll she is not.

[KenC]

I don't know how long she was in the US, or if even she was a citizen as most children born of parents with diplomatic passports do not acquire citizenship.  Maybe her stay / country of birth did leave impressions? 

BC,
That still is a long way from:

yes Sure but everybody knows that Anna politkovskaya was working for america who paid her and she was always writing pro american articles

  Kind of reminds me of the "facts" presented here a few months ago regarding Garth robbing banks!.
KenC

[Ranetka]

Ranetka,
You have made many good and valid points in this thread, but this is not one of them.  You think that this is the "best" way to measure only because it is the only way to possibly discredit American generousity.  Our dirty money sure spends as well as anyone's.
KenC

KenC,

I am not trying to difcredit American generousity, honestly. I am trying to provide a different point of view, that's all. I think any amount of aid is always welcome.

Could you answer, who would you consider more generous, a millionaire who gave $100 or a guy on $50 000 a year who gave $ 10?

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, the chronology of interventions you pasted from your favorite Marxist website (Ben Frank?) simply shows what everyone already knows - no government has a sqeaky clean history. Even pacifist Sweden has been an agressor in the past!  But most of what you listed was counter-intervention and you know it.

As a Marxist you are frustrated by the success of free-market capitalism over communism and undertandably struggling to justify your view.  And, as any Marxist, you can only do so by taking jabs at America.  In today's world there is simply no way to justify holding on to a Marxist/Leninist ideology on it's merits.  It's been a grand experiment that didn't work.  But you can see the world differently if you like...  Again, it's in the nature of things for one man to see things the opposite of another.

While we can agree that all people should share of their bounty, talents and time, it can only happen out of goodwill and generosity; not by government fiat and not at the point of a bayonet.  When the world is perfected in her goodwill, only then can each person work for the common good.  Until then, the next best thing is each person to have the freedom and opportunity to build his own "house" for himself and his family and doing so within the bounds of limited social norms we call laws.

[America's] defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.   - Abraham Lincoln

Ronnie,

1. The facts are not the web-site you mention, I do not even know about this web-site. How is it relevant what source are they from, they are only facts, they are true.

2. I am not a Marxist, I would like you not to assume what I like, what I think and what I am frustrated with. (If you ask I might tell :-)).

3. If these military actions I mentioned were counter-inventions could you provide me with details please. Just give me the FACTS, will you please?

[Misha]

From the wiki link posted one page back..

I don't know how long she was in the US, or if even she was a citizen as most children born of parents with diplomatic passports do not acquire citizenship.  Maybe her stay / country of birth did leave impressions? 

Does dual citizenship mean that she can't be critical of her country? If anything, I believe it is a much more positive statement that she had dual citizenship yet chose to stay in Russia in spite of the dangers. I would say it makes her that much more of a patriot: even though she had an easy out (dual citizenship), she chose to stay and risk her life to make Russia a better country. If she had simply said "scr*w Russia" and moved to the United States, she would likely be alive today.

[Ronnie]

The first I heard of Britney Spears was from an RW's teenage daughter in 2002. I really didn't have a  

JC, I give you some credit...(but not much).
Politkovskaya's books were published in the West.  I don't believe Putin's Russia have been yet translated into Russian.  She could have lived and worked anywhere she wanted.  She chose Russia I believe because she saw an opportunity to stop or impede the backsliding to the Russia back to the dreaded Soviet times.  Like so many of us on this board, who see great opportunity for Russia to emerge from the dark shadows of history and take her rightful place as a great nation, Politkovskaya was distressed that Russia was moving in reverse with the coming to power of Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.  

Politkovskaya worked for the Новая Газета (New Gazette).  A newspaper financed by Berezovsky and a naturalized American citizen George Soros who grew up in Nazi, then Soviet-dominated Hungary.  Soros, as some may know, is no friend to the Bush administration.  
So yes, her money did come from the West (book sales) which is quite a different matter that to imply that she was a propaganda puppet of America or her views were bought with American dollars.

Her views were hers and her convictions deeply held.  After two previous attempts on her life, she knew she was living on borrowed time but persisted nonetheless.  Who sacrifices their life for money?  You have to survive in order for money to mean anything to you. She was indeed a Russian patriot more so than any of those whose statues still stand in Russian parks.

As to following the money...The prime suspect is an FSB agent.  The execution took place on Putin's birthday.  She was not killed to silence her only.  She was killed to send an unmistakeable message to anyone else who might dare speak the truth about Putin and his gang of chekist thugs. There was no attempt to make it look like a robbery or random violence.  The Makarov pistol was left by her body..as a calling card.  Putin wanted Russia and the world to know you can't mess with him, just as with his killing of Litvinenko and others.  He is, after all, untouchable and in some perverse way the Russian people see him as a macho strong man - despite his 5ft 7in height and specially made heel-lift shoes.


Yes, JC, Politkovskaya did draw some modest income from the west through book sales.  Is that worse than Putin's plundering the treasury of Russia (a skill he learned as a city official in St Petersburg)?
Anna Stepanovna was stronger, smarter and more courageous in defense of her country than Putin could ever dream of being.  Russian women, if they are true women of Russia, should and one day will recognize that and embrace her as a national hero.

JC, it is apparent you are young..perhaps very young.  Most learning about life and the world lies ahead of you.  I think you'll eventually figure things out for yourself.  Opinions should be strongly held but only if they are formed after gather facts and not before.

[Ranetka]

Jazzy,

unfortunately I do not have more time for this discussion tonight.

If you do have time and the desire to argue with gentlemen about Politkovskaya, you could look up the text of oath everyone has to take when granting American sitizenship (sasys something about NOT ANYMORE being loyal to any other countries). I think you can find on compromat.ru the list of grants she was receiving and translate. Also you can find there about her connections with chechen terrorists.


I do not have a time now to provide facts but as far as I remember the woman lived on american money mostly. Nothing wrong with this as such, but she never had russian interests at heart. Disclaimer - I can not prove anything, but I had a good look at this when she was killed. she was dealing with thugs who taking children as hostages, no surprise to me how she ended.

[Misha]

If you do have time and the desire to argue with gentlemen about Politkovskaya, you could look up the text of oath everyone has to take when granting American sitizenship (sasys something about NOT ANYMORE being loyal to any other countries). I think you can find on compromat.ru the list of grants she was receiving and translate. Also you can find there about her connections with chechen terrorists.

I do not have a time now to provide facts but as far as I remember the woman lived on american money mostly. Nothing wrong with this as such, but she never had russian interests at heart. Disclaimer - I can not prove anything, but I had a good look at this when she was killed. she was dealing with thugs who taking children as hostages, no surprise to me how she ended.

Well, some of the gentlemen here can read compromat.ru on their own. What do you find: for the most part unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo.

The question I still have is who gets to decide what are "Russian interests." Are the interests of the President the "Russian interests"? Is it not possible for a citizen of Russia to criticize the state and its actions in Chechnya? It was a brutal war and various atrocities were carried out by both sides. Is it going against "Russian interests" to be critical of the state and the injustices that it might be carrying out? Or is it necessary to return to Soviet ideals and once the Party has made a decision then all must obediently follow out its directives without dissent or critique?

[BC]

BC,
That still is a long way from: 

yes Sure but everybody knows  that Anna politkovskaya was working for america who spaid her  and she was always writing pro american article

Kind of reminds me of the "facts" presented here a few months ago regarding Garth robbing banks!.
KenC

Ken,

Yes there is great distance between opinions expressed here, but I believe even you can accept that the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, if we ever get to know it, with great probability lies somewhere between the extremes presented in this thread.

If you take a look at the wiki article, at the bottom you will find:

Awards

    * 2001: Prize of the Russian Union of Journalists
    * 2001: Amnesty International Global Award for Human Rights Journalism
    * 2002: PEN American Center Freedom to Write Award
    * 2002: International Women's Media Foundation Courage in Journalism Award
    * 2003: Lettre Ulysses Award for the Art of Reportage [4]
    * 2003: Hermann Kesten Medal
    * 2004: Olof Palme Prize (shared with Lyudmila Alekseyeva and Sergei Kovalev)
    * 2005: Prize for the Freedom and Future of the Media
    * 2006: International Journalism Award named after Tiziano Terzani
    * 2007: UNESCO/Guillermo Cano World Press Freedom Prize (awarded posthumously for the first time)[62]
    * 2007: National Press Club/John Aubuchon Freedom of the Press Award (posthumous)
    * 2007 Democracy Award to Spotlight Press Freedom by the National Endowment for Democracy, [5]

Such prizes and awards usually include financial rewards.  Many of these organizations are NGO's supported by western countries of which many may be US based.

Thus, I can maybe not fully agree, but do understand a bit more about Jazzy's opin..

Not pointing at you Ken, but I do note a good bit of contempt prior to investigation in many politically oriented threads.  I do enjoy them immensely though because they make me think in ways I would normally not - and that I find is quite healthy.

I really must thank all members that participated here regardless of orientation.  I have learned a good bit over the last days and that is what keeps me coming back.