political wives?

[KenC]

Masha is vaguely interested in the primary campaign, but mostly as an exercise in celebrity people-watching. She likes McCain, because he's a war hero and "strong but honest face."

She likes Obama well enough, but expressed some...surprise...that white people would actually vote for a black man. This isn't so much about her own prejudices as it is her preconceived notion about ours.

She doesn't like Hillary. But then, I don't think anyone really does.

She is completely ambivalent about Russian politics (though she loves "Russia" and is very patriotic...an often strange combination). Her take is that presidents -- and even flags -- may change, but Russia never does. The ones in power will look after themselves and the people will get the shaft.

There's probably some truth in that, but it's also a self-fulfilling prophecy. Things won't change unless Russians start demanding better. In some ways, my perception of Russians is that they have a lot in common with our "greatest generation." They're tough as nails and endure hardships that most of us will never have to even contemplate. But whereas our grandparents (and, you know, KenC) were both tough and demanding, the Russians are just tough.

Momus,
It may take a while for your sweetie to settle into her new American enviornment and politics may not be high on her list of priorities.

I find your comment regarding Russians being tough but not too demanding spot on too.  I really do think they have very low expectations from their government whereas we have very high expectations.  Maybe their's is too low and our's is too high?
KenC

[SANDRO43]

I see you have survived culture shock and adapted well to your new environment, Catzenmouse :-)

By going over to the other (mouse) side ? Shameless turn-fur .

[Eduard]

As demonstrated here in this thread, and it is a good case in point for any freshman to take on board, Russians can rarely hold an objective discussion on the shortcomings of Russia. It seems to simply be part of being Russian.

I/O

Now you are throwing all Russians in one bunch...I for one, and many Russian people I know have no problems objectively discussing problems with the country and actually prefer to live in the Western sosciety because of those problems. Not everyone feels the way Serebro does.
My wife has similar outlook as your's by the way. She hates it when someone talks bad about Russia, but in private conversations with me or her family she might say: "well it's Russia after all, what do you expect?"

[I/O]

Eduard: I don't believe, nor did I intend to throw all Russians into one bunch. Perhaps I could have worded it "A rare Russian will........", however the point is the same, some will discuss Russia's shortcomings objectively by the very vast majority seem unwilling to do so.

Interesting, your comments regarding your wife's thinking. Perhaps slightly different in your situation with you a Russian, but I imagine it must be frustrating for these girls who are living where some aspects are better. They can see clearly that it could be the same and perhaps better in Russia but probably never will be.

By the same token, I watch my wife's frustration with some aspects of things here which she can clearly see could and should be better. She is used to better in Russia. At times, I can see she would really like to shake this place on things like some of the basic service medical facilities and such. Clearly, at least in her city, the basic polyclinic providing basic services for children as an example are far easier to access than here. She points out, and rightly so, with all the wealth of this country, why do they make it difficult to actually see a doctor for basic things.

I/O

[KenC]

If anything, this thread gives you an insight of just how volital your relations may be when it comes to discussing the differences between Russia and your home countries.  Emotions, illogical conclusions based on assumptions and home based propaganda from both sides can be an area of conflict in your new relationship.  DKMM astutely pointed this out on page two IIRC,  If you take these ideas and add to them the realm of the unknown (which is no doubt assumed worse than their norm) you have a very very touchy area to be explored and conquered over time.  You can only pray that you and your spouse have a lot thicker skin than what some have displayed here in this thread.  Even with the increased tolerance, the difference in political outlook is an area that will eventually have to be addressed.  And it is a minefield as shown here in this thread!
KenC

[Eduard]

Eduard: I don't believe, nor did I intend to throw all Russians into one bunch. Perhaps I could have worded it "A rare Russian will........", however the point is the same, some will discuss Russia's shortcomings objectively by the very vast majority seem unwilling to do so.

Interesting, your comments regarding your wife's thinking. Perhaps slightly different in your situation with you a Russian, but I imagine it must be frustrating for these girls who are living where some aspects are better. They can see clearly that it could be the same and perhaps better in Russia but probably never will be.

By the same token, I watch my wife's frustration with some aspects of things here which she can clearly see could and should be better. She is used to better in Russia. At times, I can see she would really like to shake this place on things like some of the basic service medical facilities and such. Clearly, at least in her city, the basic polyclinic providing basic services for children as an example are far easier to access than here. She points out, and rightly so, with all the wealth of this country, why do they make it difficult to actually see a doctor for basic things.

I/O

well, your wife may be right about the very basic service. And also I might add that medical services are much cheaper there. There are some doctors that are very skilled and care about their patients. But there are other sides of the coin and some of them are pretty extreme...For instance 4 years ago I decided to get a procedure done in Russia since I didn't have medical insurance and it would cost me about 6 grand to do it here in the US (compared to a $100 that I spent on the same procedure there. It would cost much more now since everything went up in Russia)
Since my cousin is a well connected surgeon in Moscow she referred me to the best hospital where I was admitted. Obviously I had the best doctors, private room, etc. But there was no toilet paper in the whole hospital!!! No towels!!! I had to endure this very painful procedure with NO anesthesia! In the US they couldn't fathom to go through with this without putting you completely out!
There are other extremes that I've heard of, like a woman going in for an appendectomy, but when she wakes up one of her kidneys is gone...sold for a nice profit. She couldn't get justice because she didn't have a powerful enough "roof"...
Interesting thing happens, when people immigrate to a new country, after a while they seem to forget the bad but their mind retains all the good memories which causes them to miss the motherland and a general nostalgia. I know of a great cure for that though!!!
let them go back to visit, it seems to work wonders! Now that they had gotten used to the US (or Australian lifestyle in your case) their Euphoria once back home lasts only for a couple of days - seeing the family and close friends. After a few short days the reality of life there sets in and now they start missing all the nice things that they started taking for granted so quickly (it is easy to get used to nice things and many conveniences that we enjoy living in the West, particularly in the US. Great service is one of them) By the end of their stay they usually start telling everyone that now they are ready to go "HOME"
When they come back "HOME" to the US, they seem to appreciate our lifestyle here a lot more and in most cases the nostalgia is gone! In short, they really need to go back to the old country in order to appreciate the lifestyle that they are living in the new one...makes perfect sense!

[deccie]

There's no any attempt to pass responsibility

We disagree on this one.

In fact Russians inherited Soviet gains and Soviet faults by accepting Soviet debts.
The USSR owed a lot of money to different countries, after the USSR stopped its existance the 14 Republics refused to pay the debts and to have something in common with the Soviet past.
So officially Russia became the heir of the USSR in both positive and negative ways.

Since the USSR grew out of the Bolshevik's seizing power in Russia and then expanding I don't see that when it devolves that this is unreasonable. While I am sure some of what you say is true i do recall there was some trading of various assets for debt at the time with nuclear and other strategic assets being traded for debt.

This explains why there are so many ex-Soviet countries-republic who are interested in making Russia look bad  making them pay its debts.

Actually I think it is more than this. after speaking to a great number of people from countries with "difficult" relationships with Russia and pressing them as to why they still felt hostile towards russia it almost always came down to "because russia (tried to/did) invaded us and took over. Those events are still far too raw in people's memories.

As for the deccie's post, deccie, do you really think that Russians didn't suffer during the Stalin's regime but they only benefited from making people of other republics/nationalities suffer?!
My ancestors lived here and I can say that it's not so.

Of course not. I'm not saying that at all. But what I am saying is that some Russians also benefited from the regime.

If you take older generation, no, not young people, but old people who are older than 50 for example- and if you ask them if they are angry with Russians or if you ask Russian people who are older than 50 if they are angry with people of other Ex Soviet republics most of them will say no. It may sound strange but people in the 60-ies-80-ies who lived in Stalin's time and suffered a lot will never say bad things about other nationalities as they didn't feel any difference.

I beg to differ based on the interactions noted above.

For some reason the younger generation who doesn't remember either Stalin or even Hrutshev will tell a lot of things about how they ancestors suffered and how bad russians are.But it's even more surprising to see my 85 yo neighbour- a Kazakh man who likes me and my family and Russians and Tatars and Ukrainians and Bashkirs on the whole very much and can tell a lot of stories from his past and his friendship with Russians and people of other nationalities and bad stories that happened to them and evil remarks of the foreign man who has read a couple of books about the USSR shouting about how  his new gf family sufered because of "these bad Russians".

The problem you face Serebro is that no one has been called to account for those actions. Until that happens Russians will be blamed for those events on a general basis. Who has been held account in Russia for the Katyn Wood Massacre? Even if Stalin ordered it, who carried it out?
 This event for one is still an open wood for many poles. The Russian "tradition" has been one of hiding and denial. It's a hard cycle to break. Even if Stalin ordered it, who carried it out?

if we all are so terrible and irresposible why do you all come here

Speaking for myself I try to speak about these issues precisely because I see how great Russia could be if only Russians chose to address some internal issues. Russia is a great country and generally a great place, however you have a history and baggage that weighs you down that few other countries have to contend with.

[deccie]

Perhaps the problem that some Russians with separating attacks on their government versus an attack on their country itself is because of the lack of a viable opposition.

Even though people who live outside the FSU on this forum tend to be of one political stance or another the governments of their countries do change on a periodic basis. Perhaps that enables most of us to separate an attack on a political party to being different from an attack on a country per se. I mean look at the Italians! they change governments mor efrequently than just about anyone else!

It seems to be a fundamental strength, indeed a requirement, that a good government requires a good opposition. (Up to a point)

Government performance seems to fall when Opposition performance seems to fall below a certain threshold.. I/O may be able to confirm this since he still resides in my state but my experience is that the my State government of several years ago (the party concerned is still in power though the leader has changed) performed VERY badly with scandal after scandal and several people in ministries who should never have been there. When we went to an election the government was re-elected. It seemed that the government only got back because the Opposition was perceived as being MORE disorganised.

This seems to be the fundamental area russia is lacking - that it does not have viable alternatives to the current group in power.

[BC]

BC,

I glanced through this to see who is still being played.  Shocking!  Did a friend bring you some wacky weed to smoke?  You are on one heck of a philosophical trip.  Let me hold up a mirror, please, to your words.

Olof Palme Prize....Amnesty ....UNESCO

Do you seriously implicate them as possible fronts for American political sabotage in Russia?  I find it incredulous and no defence for JC's mentality.  For the Olof Palme Prize to serve that purpose would be very ironical considering Palme was one of the world’s leading opponents against American involvement in Vietnam.  His assassination affected the West, particularly Sweden, and Anna is similarly gunned down two years later. 

Should we now investigate other winners of these awards as possible agents? 

If anything, Putin would not have the slightest need to make a 'statement' me thinks.

Maybe it is a statement of a different kind, yet what he did to Mikhail Khodorkovsky is definitely a statement to any other oligarch who may consider departing from the Putin path.

One atrocity or a hundred, it makes little difference.

I am confused whether you are being an antiwar liberal or rationalizing collateral damage.    My Lai was deplorable, left a permanent stain, and hastened American withdrawal from RVN, yet it would take 10,000 My Lai's to equal Pol Pot.  I have seen mild-mannered VN citizens get pushed around and roughed up, an act I found atrocious, but it is more than a little difference from My Lai.

Gator,

One thing that may be useful, is when quoting someone use the quotation feature - especially when quoting only a few words of the post or within long threads or the OP on another page.  This allows other members to click on the provided link so that they can see the entire post, and assess context and any previous posts.  I'll be the first to admit I am not flawless with proper quoting, even in this thread, but I will try better.

My posts I believe you refer to are here:

55,

war is hell, it brings out the worst in us.  One atrocity or a hundred, it makes little difference.

No army is immune, with or without orders.

and here:

Kind of reminds me of the "facts" presented here a few months ago regarding Garth robbing banks!.
KenC


Ken,

Yes there is great distance between opinions expressed here, but I believe even you can accept that the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, if we ever get to know it, with great probability lies somewhere between the extremes presented in this thread.

If you take a look at the wiki article, at the bottom you will find:

Such prizes and awards usually include financial rewards.  Many of these organizations are NGO's supported by western countries of which many may be US based.

Thus, I can maybe not fully agree, but do understand a bit more about Jazzy's opin..

Not pointing at you Ken, but I do note a good bit of contempt prior to investigation in many politically oriented threads.  I do enjoy them immensely though because they make me think in ways I would normally not - and that I find is quite healthy.

I really must thank all members that participated here regardless of orientation.  I have learned a good bit over the last days and that is what keeps me coming back.

and here:

I'm impressed. 

Ronnie,

More unsubstantiated conjecture.  If anything, Putin would not have the slightest need to make a 'statement' me thinks.  The 'calling cards' look more and more like a setup if anything.

Anyhow carry on but do bring a fresh deck of cards to the table - this deck is worn out.

Regarding the list of awards I stated:

Such prizes and awards usually include financial rewards.  Many of these organizations are NGO's supported by western countries of which many may be US based.

Thus, I can maybe not fully agree, but do understand a bit more about Jazzy's opin..

Note my use of 'may'.  No I did not investigate each and every one but I believe I stated the point I wanted to get across quite clearly in the sentence that followed.  The question posed to Jazzy was more or less 'what money?' and I provided only a possible source of foreign funds. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regarding Putin, note use of 'me thinks'..  Here we are talking about tens and maybe hundreds of reporters supposedly being 'offed' by Putin with very little substantiation.  I'm sure if he wants someone 'offed' he can have it done without much ado, just like many other political leaders.  Political assassination was only recently 'banned' in the US, but I believe they call it something like 'decapitation strike' nowdays.  I did not mention Mikhail Khodorkovsky, but maybe another thread might be more appropriate as this one seems to be mucked up enough.

Regarding my 'war is hell' post, please do take it in it's entirety.  If you remain confused let me know and I'll try to explain better.

ohh.. and no thanks, I gave up 'wacky weed' decades ago so will just pass it back. 

[I/O]

Eduard: I hear what you are saying. Note my use of the word "basic" medical services. The comparison I see is this. (My country vs Russia) The basic services are far more accessable in Russia and maybe better, probably better I suspect. I have only needed minor medical assistance once in Russia and was treated very well AND quickly. However, at the more complex end of the system it is perhaps another story. Lack of funds and corruption seems to take it's toll on supply, service and to an extent dedication. However, IMO a GOOD doctor is a good doctor because of their personal ethos. I think the really good ones shine anywhere.

You comments regarding nostalgia for the motherland etc have been discussed here several times and I think it is fair to say, most would agree entirely with your remarks. Believe me, I planned my wife's arrival and early activities rather carefully, so far she has progressed well. Six months has gone by and I am carefully planning the timing of her first trip back home to Russia. It is a ways off yet and it will be very interesting to watch the results. Very intersting indeed.

Nevertheless, isn't that a bit the same for all of us in many situations. I recently visited my childhood home and as I walked into my old bedroom, I couldn't help but notice how it was half the size I remember it. Memory is greater than reality.

If anything, this thread gives you an insight of just how volital your relations may be when it comes to discussing the differences between Russia and your home countries..........................................Even with the increased tolerance, the difference in political outlook is an area that will eventually have to be addressed.  And it is a minefield as shown here in this thread!
KenC

Yes, those differences DO HAVE to be addressed. It is utter foolishness to simply avoid them during the relationship establishment stage. Either the relationship is well enough grounded to withstand the debates that WILL come or it is not. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay better to find that out earlier than later. The debates ARE gunna come sooner or later.

I/O

[Gator]

Has anyone noticed that we now have what I believe to be a journalist as a new RWD member?   “Mendeleyev”  sure knows Russia, has followed it since the 1970s, and was stationed there.

He joined RWD this week, so he is now flying under the radar.  He has written very informative posts in the Train Travel Primer and the RU Elections threads.  This one reveals that he knows Russia thoroughly, perhaps better than most RU citizens who can not see the forest for the trees.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7155.msg128111#msg128111

It would be splendid if he commented here to add some clarity.  However, this thread seems like a collection of short articles that failed to meet the standards of the National Enquirer (and I include my own posts), so maybe he is trying to avoid any association.

Over my life I have spent a lot of time with journalists.  The ratio of their IQ to income is perhaps the highest of any profession.  So give them a break, even if most are liberal, because they are out there trying to report the truth, many venturing into areas no one else will attempt.

[Gator]

BC,

My method of quoting perhaps did give the wrong impression.  This thread is so disjointed that perhaps few noticed.

The important point is that if you and I were sitting down and enjoying a bottle of fine wine, we probably would find that our opinions would not be far apart, and for sure we would have a good time without wacky weed.

[timothe]

If anything, this thread gives you an insight of just how volital your relations may be when it comes to discussing the differences between Russia and your home countries.  Emotions, illogical conclusions based on assumptions and home based propaganda from both sides can be an area of conflict in your new relationship.  DKMM astutely pointed this out on page two IIRC,  If you take these ideas and add to them the realm of the unknown (which is no doubt assumed worse than their norm) you have a very very touchy area to be explored and conquered over time.  You can only pray that you and your spouse have a lot thicker skin than what some have displayed here in this thread.  Even with the increased tolerance, the difference in political outlook is an area that will eventually have to be addressed.  And it is a minefield as shown here in this thread!
KenC

Very true.  For now, my Olechka and I have agreed to disagree and left it at that.

[BC]

The important point is that if you and I were sitting down and enjoying a bottle of fine wine, we probably would find that our opinions would not be far apart, and for sure we would have a good time without wacky weed.

We sure could will one of these days.. ! 

[WmGO]

bTW, why do you all write bad things about Karl Marks, he was a genius, Russian communists didn't use his work in the right way but the whole work is great.

If I have heard this crock of bull once I have heard it a thousand times.........          


Obviously, you have never studied Marx......or Lenin............everything they ever said is in direct opposition to:

1. common sense
2. basic human nature
3. fundamental principles of economics
4. basic morality
5. fundamental justice and fairness

Not to mention such strange to the Russian mind concepts as personal responsibility, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedoms of speech, press, assembly and association, freedom of travel, freedom of conscience, freedom of contract, rule of law, private property............not to mention Biblical principles.............

Sad that monuments to these devils still exist in large number throughout the
FSU. Even sadder that so many FSU people despite really being an intelligent people cannot figure out the reality between cause and effect, i.e., sowing and reaping..........  

Bad crops always start with bad seeds.
And bad seeds begin with words/thoughts/ideas/propositions!

[WmGO]

3. As someone who had lived in the Soviet Union, then in capitalist Russia then in well established western democracy my vote goes for the Soviet Union. 

Wow, a vote for totalitarianism and the gulag!!!!!!!!!!   

[BC]

If I have heard this crock of bull once I have heard it a thousand times.........          

Obviously, you have never studied Marx......or Lenin............everything they ever said is in direct opposition to:

I guess you have studied, so mind telling us a little about it? Maybe a few notable passages you studied and found interesting?

A few folks I know in FSU remember USSR times quite fondly, may be a 'rearview mirror' kinda thing but I did note it.

[Ronnie]

I have to agree with the great thinking ability of Marx.  I'm not sure if "genius" is the correct description for him however.  His views were misguided and wrong as history has displayed.
But we have to realize Karl Marx did not have a solid grounding in life.  One could argue he never worked a day in his life or had to worry about where his next meal was coming from, nor did he have to worry about meeting a payroll.  He was always supported by others..his wealthy parents, wealthy wife...and Engels, his wealthy friend.

Further, the ideas of the Communist Manifesto, were not uniquely his.  They were a distillation of those of the communists with whom he associated while living in Paris.  Marx wrongfully predicted that the conditions of the workers of Europe and the United States would continually worsen to the point that the workers would revolt.  This didn't happen, the conditions instead improved.

[Serebro]

If I have heard this crock of bull once I have heard it a thousand times.........          


Obviously, you have never studied Marx......or Lenin............everything they ever said is in direct opposition to:

1. common sense
2. basic human nature
3. fundamental principles of economics
4. basic morality
5. fundamental justice and fairness

Not to mention such strange to the Russian mind concepts as personal responsibility, freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedoms of speech, press, assembly and association, freedom of travel, freedom of conscience, freedom of contract, rule of law, private property............not to mention Biblical principles.............

Sad that monuments to these devils still exist in large number throughout the
FSU. Even sadder that so many FSU people despite really being an intelligent people cannot figure out the reality between cause and effect, i.e., sowing and reaping..........  

Bad crops always start with bad seeds.
And bad seeds begin with words/thoughts/ideas/propositions!

Boring.
Very boring, predictable and not new.

Wmgo, the point of view you expressed doesn't sound like something extraodinary, do not try to impress me with your remarks of how bad Lenin's or Marks's works were...your point of view became fashionable at the beginning of the 90-ies so I am not surprised to see it.

My parents studied Lenin's and Marks' works at University and made some notes but I was upbrought in quite a democratic way, they never tried to teach me how good this or that person was...probably I was lucky to have parents like them.Modern generation knows nothing of them and they only know thay all those works "are bad" just because "everybody says that they are bad because it didn't work out".

When I was 20 I became a big fan of Zen buddism which theory is that you can't judge things that you know nothing of.

So I read the Capital myself to be able to judge it.I don't think that it was bad and I still think that it has a point.

As soon as you read the book but not just watch a bad capitalist movie about communists and their leaders let me know and we will discuss it.

[Blues Fairy]

Serebro, I notice you use the word "bad" quite a lot as a common denominator for all descriptive terms and ideas offered by your opponents that are not directly supportive of Russia and Russia-related things.  Smells like teen spirit to me.  We are all sensitive to negativity in regards to our country of origin, but to complain that these folks are telling us Russia is "bad" or Marx is "bad" etc. would be a sign of childlike hysteria.  Excessive emotion is no friend of yours in a debate like this (which, however, is the kind of debate almost wholly based on emotional perceptions).

[Serebro]

Serebro, I notice you use the word "bad" quite a lot as a common denominator for all descriptive terms and ideas offered by your opponents that are not directly supportive of Russia and Russia-related things.  Smells like teen spirit to me.  We are all sensitive to negativity in regards to our country of origin, but to complain that these folks are telling us Russia is "bad" or Marx is "bad" etc. would be a sign of childlike hysteria. 

Blues Fairy, I appreciate your point of view, and your high opinion of my "teenage" "childish" "hysteria", but what shall I do in cases when a 40+yo acts the same way as me, as soon as he is too old and "mature" to be accused of "teenage hysteria shall I call him/her behavior  climax hysteria?!
As soon as me and Jazzy and a lot of 20+30-yo members are always accused of something like "being childish"what word can we use as the right description of behavior of our mature "oldies""?

[Blues Fairy]

As soon as me and Jazzy and a lot of 20+30-yo members are always accused of something like "being childish"what word can we use as the right description of behavior of our mature "oldies""?

Hmm... maybe patronizing, sometimes? But notice that the more defensive you act, the more they'll patronize. 

[Serebro]

Hmm... maybe patronizing, sometimes? But notice that the more defensive you act, the more they'll patronize. 

"patronizing opinion" doesn't sound like the  equivalent of "immature and childish opinion". 

As soon as the "oldies" use the age factor and age peculiarities I think that the "youngies" should do the same. for some reason mentioning someone's age  as the reason of the tone of his posts when the person is old is considered to be rude and when the same thing is used in case with the "youngie" it's just cute and nice.

I remember when someone(I remember who, but I am not going to mention names) told that Jazzy was writing that way because she had just got married and she was evidently pregnant.... I think that would be logical if Jazzy said that someone has just turned 60-70, so he is losing his mind and this affects his posts.
What do you think of it?

PS:btw, BF, stop  changing the topic of the thread again.
If you hate young people and their opinion go and start another thread and iggy people whose opinion you don't like..

[turniptruck]

Roo pie!    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080314/od_afp/australiaanimalkangaroooffbeat_080314020551;_ylt=AgIUdc4NqRP6wNGjPkWnAlis0NUE

I've always wanted to try Drop bears but Roos sound enticing as well!

Get into the Habit!  ROFL

http://www.smh.com.au/news/diet/thumbs-up-for-kangaroo-pie/2008/03/13/1205126165622.html

[mischief]

No, catzen, you don't have to read a book to express your opinion, but the more books you read the less ignorant your opinion will look like.

My favourite line by J. Carey: “ Literature does not make you a better person, though it may help you to criticize what you are.   But it enlarges your mind, and it gives you thoughts, words and rhythms that will last you for life.”
 I guess he failed to mention about criticizing others..  :noidea: