FSU Realities: How does it Affect East-West Relations

[mischief]

Mischief,

You may be Polish, yet you have some RW characteristics.

I hope you mean my "incredible beauty" LOL

Again, the label we give Russian society does not matter.  What is remarkable is the fact that many good hearted RW can be found there given that society's recognized shortcomings.

I believe family values have much to do with it, as there is not much else.

I would love to hear you saying :" Honey, you came from a very rotten society... but i like you anyway!"...

[krimster]

There are real boundaries in the world.
Take a look at a map of Europa
Color the Catholic countries red and the Protestant ones green
a-a-and the Orthodox ones will be umm purple, yeah purple.
These borders represent real cultural boundaries as well.

In the west we have been the lucky recipients of a culture
that beginning with the renaissance and reformation jumped to the declaration
of independence and bill of rights, to Quakers putting price tags in their stores
and Henry Ford and Unions and the G.I. Bill and credit cards.

Meanwhile, Russians had to hide in the forest from the Mongols and most were sold as slaves, and continued in serfdom until the time of the American civil war.  America has George Washington rowing across the Delaware.  Russia has not one but two rulers, Ivan Grozny and Peter the Great who bash their own sons to death.  So the colors of cruelty and famine and war and despots have blended into the autumn reds and golds to color the Russian landscape and create it's own unique "Seasonally Adjusted Disorder", which really is SAD.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it, maybe it will give you pretty dreams and soft illusions.  Like the dreams of homeless children beneath the steam pipes in Sevastopol.  You can dream of answers to questions and then when you awake you will only forget these dreams.

[Blues Fairy]

One of the typical hard-to-eradicate "Soviet" traits would probably be the lack of self-sufficiency and the sense of entitlement, e.g. to financial support in retirement, without having to earn it.  Lots of my friends in their 30-ies haven't yet given a thought to how they're going to support themselves in their old age.  Lots of people in my parents' generation are still dead sure that after their career is over, the State and/or their adult children will support them. 

However, such carelessness and irresponsibility are characteristic of any generation that grew up in a welfare society. I understand the US baby-boomers are now going through similar crisis of disenchantment.  In Russia, it will take at least one generation of young people absolutely stripped of all security (that would be us, I suppose ) to instill Western standards of self-reliance, self-management, and strategic thinking in a sizeable portion of population.  Unfortunately, without a proper government and financial system in place, many will "vote with their feet", and many already have.   

[dneid]

Good Evening, All,
Well, I have completely enjoyed this thread.  Many wonderful, philosophical points being raised here.  I do not know enough about Russian culture or history to be comfortable having a solid opinion.  I would love to find a great book about Russian history that was not measured in volumes!  Do any of you have any recommendations?  Especially from our native Russian members.  I would appreciate anything you could point me to.  I have had a few chats with a few ladies who are old enough to remember the Soviet system.  We have discussed this topic several times.  What is most fascinating to me is the fact that these ladies say many folks are now wishing for the old Soviet system back.  I found that to be very illuminating.  Now, I realize that my "sample size" is very very small and not statistically valid.  I made no attempt to sell the finer points of freedom.  I guess it is hard to see forest because of the trees.
Now, I am going to throw out an idea that will, if others choose to respond/comment, take this thread in a different direction.  We need to look at the US and see if we can figure out if we are on the right track as well.  One simple statistic is our high divorce rate.  I saw one statistic that claimed that 54% of all first marriages fail followed by 66% of second marriages being terminated, and it continues to climb when each successive marriage.  There are stats I can throw out that lead me to question the direction we have taken the last 50 years.  I now believe that the 60s and 70s were very destructive decades to moral fabric of the country.  Now, don't get me wrong, we have had many wonderful advances on the social front that needed to happen.  But, have we lost sight of the more important things in life here in the US?  It seems that we all are scrambling to get the latest and greatest in our homes.  We have far too many kids being left alone.  We have far too many kids having kids.  So, let's look inward some (like my grandpappy said, "Be real careful when you point that finger.  There are three more pointing right back at you.")  And, no, I am not looking for a June Cleaver.  I am just looking for someone who has the gumption to take the wedding vows seriously.  Who will stick it out and work hard to build a wonderful marriage.  Not a good marriage, but a  great marriage.  Love is complicated and ever changing.  I think the Greeks had a better handle on the many facets of love.  Just my 2 cents.
Now, let me get out my asbestos underwear and make sure the fire extinguisher is freshly charged.
Looking forward to the replies.

[I/O]

I would love to find a great book about Russian history that was not measured in volumes!  Do any of you have any recommendations? 

"Roots of revolution" is a worthy read. It delves into Russian philosophical thinking over the last couple of hundred years.

I/O

[DKMM]

Greetings, I haven't poked my head around RWD in a while. 

Having grew up with Russian friends, travelled to Russia, dated several Russians including a fiancee, plus having a degree in Russian studies I can really say the first few threads spoke more truth than many would want to admit, although it seems that is not a secret to some around here.  The conclusion of my studies in university was that the Soviet Union was basically born out of the chaos of a dysfunctional society.  It wasn't just a band of Communists bent on conquest.

I was warned of all this in a long conversation I had with a Russian man (friend of a friend) who moved to the states a few years ago.  He flatly told me that they grow up learning not to trust anybody they aren't related to, not have compassion for strangers and use your advantage in any situation you can (and it gets worse from there).  I was rather shocked to hear after all the great talk of their education system, 90% of the students cheat right on their final exams (although they deny its cheating but rather the only way to compete).  In fact, you can get a decent grade without hardly attending class (and that's without getting into corruption/bribery).  That isn't some cultural difference, its a symptom.

Dysfunctional is the best word I would use as well.  Any man who brings a lady into his life will see this unless he is completely blind.  I'd like to see what else Doug had to say.

And yes, despite all that, I still find the women to be superior in most ways to AW.  I believe that most RW looking abroad also recognize the way things are with their inner compass as Gator and BF alluded to. 

I have certainly looked at my search in another way by jumping straight in with details on her family.  Because in the end, its the family environment that matters most especially if you find a lady still living at home with both parents(which is the only situation I accept).

[Lily]

Abstracting from the term 'rotten society', I'd tell Russian society is rather mentally damaging. That term IMHO would be more specifically related to the person than to the society in general. Assume we are interested in the person and in her personal mentality, not in the whole country.

Unlike previous posters, DKMM tried to point out a few things that are often exhibited by particular person. Distrust to others, lack of compassion, dog-eats-dog mentality are the things that Russians developed as a result of living under the given conditions. I'd add a few more, like antagonism to the law and order, when they consider it a matter of honour not to pay taxes, not to cooperate with authorities, not to comply with requirements when they know that no punishment likely comes. This is the way to live in an oppressive state, when people know that the state is your enemy, not your protector.

However, if you folks will let you be guided by those scary things like you are going to bring home a mentally damaded woman, you my finish empty handed and single
I have some good news for you, in particular:

- living in damaging circumstances does not necessarily mean being in fact damaged! It depends on the personality. For instance, if two people would be put on a cold city street for a whole night, the next day one of the survivors may became severely ill, while the other one may get out just caughing for a couple of days. The point is that those two have different levels of resistance and immunity. Same with the human mentality under damaging conditions.

therefore my next suggestion would be

- try to look for a person who is willing to change herself. Think how to distinguish people with this feature! That's a challenge. Unfortunately there are some women who believe that the world should change for them, not vice versa. Sad thing is that such women are often beautiful..

[Lit_1nce]

We have 3000 some odd members, with how many actually happily married ?

Not sure if there is a stat on it somewhere, but it would be interesting to know the percentage of these 3000 that have actually gotten on a plane...

This topic is an interesting read... It kind of reminds me of a friend who had to go to Mexico for a month on business.. he was so worried.. What would he eat ?  what would he drink ? .. It's like Mexicans must be dieing by the thousands daily because there can't be anything that isn't dangerous to eat and drink... I think the perception is that American standards are higher (and they probably are), but that doesn't mean that things don't function that are not up to our standards (otherwise Mexico would have an extremely low population)

Our own standards developed over time.. and I am sure that those in FSU countries will too. Some FSU countries in order to join the EU have had to combat things like corruption.. and they are.. It may take awhile for Russia to combat the problem they have with it. especially if ingrained into the government.. but it is doable. Once it becomes beneficial to those in power to fight it (which it should be) then they will.. Perhaps when oil plummets and it is desired to do more foreign trade with companies that want to do business but won't because of the corruption, it will suddenly become something to work harder at.

[Jazzyclassy]

decided not to post my opinion as some very sensitive members will scream and shout

[Lit_1nce]

Removed because Jazzy decided to remove her post.

[BC]

decided not to post my opinion as some very sensitive members will scream and shout

I thought it was quite good.. why so shy?

[I/O]

Jazz: To make statements like someone has "never lived in poverty" is foolish because you haven't a clue whether or not they have. You are making assumptions. Unfounded assumptions are never a good basis to build a legitimate argument from.

This thread is not really designed, so far as I can see to compare one with another, although by default it will do that to some extent. What I have tried to do is explore some of the less desirable things in Russia without trying to measure them off against another, but rather measure them by reasonable humanitarian expectations. Russia falls way short of acceptable on a humanitarian basis in some areas. That is simply sad and it does and will continue to effect how people think and act.

Maybe we can turn this "FSU Realities" thing around for a moment and look at another side without being too glassy eyed. Maybe we can examine some things Russia/Russians does/do that exceeds standards of decency and will effect ones relationship in a positive way.

Some of the things I have noticed which condition some ladies to adapt well internationally include..................

1) Equal expectations of performance.
2) An ability to not only survive, but thrive adversity.
3) Well grounded basic educational skill sets.
4) An instinctive desire to rise above the normal.
5) A serious and intelligent curiosity regarding other countries/cultures.
6) A sense of self worth.
7) Loyalty to their own which is almost without peer.

Out of this, the standout thing for me regarding my wife, having been here permanently for near 6 months now is she is an information sponge. She just drinks anything new in at an almost frightening rate. Is this her or is it Russian? I think a little of both but mostly Russian because Russian people have been conditioned for so long that education/infomation is almost their only hope of survival/success.

How does this effect our relationship? It contributes to no boredom. Unless of course one finds 150 "Why is this so's" per hour boring.

I/O

[Lily]

Russian people have been conditioned for so long that education/infomation is almost their only hope of survival/success.
 

I am curious, do the Westerner think it differently?

[I/O]

I am curious, do the Westerner think it differently?

This one does. In my country, education is an advantage, no question, but it is not the be all and end all. One can carve out a very decent life for themselves without much education if one has a few basic "smarts" about them.

An example is my two nephews (brothers). The older is a well qualified engineer working in high level motor sport, the other is a deisel fitter with a few smarts about him and gets almost twice the income the other does and BTW the MS engineer is not living on a small salary.

I/O

[Jazzyclassy]

Well imagine if someone would call American or Australian society rotten and so on.
your reaction please?
You are very fast to comment on somebody's opinion when you fully have no understanding of what this or that person means in his/her speech

It is a very scandalicious topic and you deliberately post it in order to provoke people

[I/O]

Well imagine if someone would call American or Australian society rotten and so on.
your reaction please?

My reaction? Some aspects of Australian and for that matter American society are rotten to the very core.

This is not a subject designed to provoke negativity, but rather one to objectively discuss one subject. The failing of some will be to constantly try to compare one with another.

I/O

[Lit_1nce]

Russian people have been conditioned for so long that education/infomation is almost their only hope of survival/success.

I am curious, do the Westerner think it differently?

I think this has been discussed before, but higher education is definitely not thought of as a requirement for survival.. and there are many routes to success without it.. I am sure everyone will agree higher education is a good thing, and has it's advantages though.

[myrddin]

I am curious, do the Westerner think it differently?

This one too.  I'd bet that's a pretty common view among Westerners, especially Americans.  Though I will add the caveat about something very important to me: education and schooling are not the same thing.  In a good system there is a pretty high correlation.  

No society is monolithic in its beliefs.  Unfortunately, I have to say that I see a lot of "debate" in the US degenerating into emotional diatribes and verbal violence.  Also, there is a lot of information available about everything, and nothing to sort the good from the bad.  Unless you pick up some of that "education", in the sense of critical thinking ability.  It is hard to imagine any society enduring long-term without an educated, informed populace able to hold its leaders accountable.

In one's personal life, in America, I'd say that drive is the single most important quality (might call it "desire" or "ambition", but I am referring to the same quality).  Everything else can be acquired (education, information, skills, capital), but drive is what keeps someone going until they succeed at whatever they are trying to do.  My own view is that this also applies to a society's survival/success.

[Lit_1nce]

Well imagine if someone would call American or Australian society rotten and so on.
your reaction please?
You are very fast to comment on somebody's opinion when you fully have no understanding of what this or that person means in his/her speech

It is a very scandalicious topic and you deliberately post it in order to provoke people

I would ask them to tell me what they thought was rotten.. and then agree or disagree with them... in fact I might have some things I think are rotten they didn't think of !

I think the original intent of this thread was to say that women from the FSU have had some harsh realities to deal with, and that these women who have dealt with things like everyday corruption are in some way more "street wise" (can't think of a nicer way to put it), and that this is something to think about when they come to live here.

I think the whole "rotten" thing got blown out of proportion.. and that it was to show.. look it's rough there, but look there are good people that overcome all that.

[BC]

Some of the things I have noticed which condition some ladies to adapt well internationally include..................

1) Equal expectations of performance.
2) An ability to not only survive, but thrive adversity.
3) Well grounded basic educational skill sets.
4) An instinctive desire to rise above the normal.
5) A serious and intelligent curiosity regarding other countries/cultures.
6) A sense of self worth.
7) Loyalty to their own which is almost without peer.

Out of this, the standout thing for me regarding my wife, having been here permanently for near 6 months now is she is an information sponge. She just drinks anything new in at an almost frightening rate. Is this her or is it Russian? I think a little of both but mostly Russian because Russian people have been conditioned for so long that education/infomation is almost their only hope of survival/success.

How does this effect our relationship? It contributes to no boredom. Unless of course one finds 150 "Why is this so's" per hour boring.

I/O

Live with adversity, add knowledge and you end up with a very creative mind.

One example:

Almost 10 years ago I started working with a crew of programmers in Ukraine developing b2b internet applications.  For many years they had a very slow internet connection 64kb/s type.  Compared to other developers their product worked faster with less and much more efficient code.

One of our business customer today is in an area where broadband is not available and is working over a slow ISDN line (one channel 64kb) He is very appreciative that our platform works even under these circumstances.

Having the same programs written by western programmers (tried before) were not able to match in terms of performance.  Why? they have the luxury of multi megabit connections to the internet and write their code in a bulky manner.

My wife may take me to task when doing projects around the house.  At first I balked 'my way'.. but in the end many times ended up adopting her solution.

FIL chopped down about 10 huge trees on our property primarily with a small hand axe and hand saw.. limb for limb.  I bought a power saw that he quickly learned to use for the 4 foot wide trunks, but even without it I am sure he would have somehow managed to cut even those into kindling.. just would have taken more time and maybe a bigger hand saw.

Take a look at many of their technological accomplishments.. they did send up the first sputnik, first man in space, first spacewalk and even the first woman in space (I think the first tourist too).  They sent round balls into orbit back in 61 and guess what, those round balls are still going up today.  May not be pretty or have the latest buzzers and whistles but they sure do get the job done with unparalleled safety.

Luxury creates waste.. I hope their creativity remains with increasing wealth.

[KenC]

Abstracting from the term 'rotten society', I'd tell Russian society is rather mentally damaging. That term IMHO would be more specifically related to the person than to the society in general. Assume we are interested in the person and in her personal mentality, not in the whole country.

Unlike previous posters, DKMM tried to point out a few things that are often exhibited by particular person. Distrust to others, lack of compassion, dog-eats-dog mentality are the things that Russians developed as a result of living under the given conditions. I'd add a few more, like antagonism to the law and order, when they consider it a matter of honour not to pay taxes, not to cooperate with authorities, not to comply with requirements when they know that no punishment likely comes. This is the way to live in an oppressive state, when people know that the state is your enemy, not your protector.

However, if you folks will let you be guided by those scary things like you are going to bring home a mentally damaded woman, you my finish empty handed and single
I have some good news for you, in particular:

- living in damaging circumstances does not necessarily mean being in fact damaged! It depends on the personality. For instance, if two people would be put on a cold city street for a whole night, the next day one of the survivors may became severely ill, while the other one may get out just caughing for a couple of days. The point is that those two have different levels of resistance and immunity. Same with the human mentality under damaging conditions.

therefore my next suggestion would be

- try to look for a person who is willing to change herself. Think how to distinguish people with this feature! That's a challenge. Unfortunately there are some women who believe that the world should change for them, not vice versa. Sad thing is that such women are often beautiful..

Lily,
Your post caught my eye, especially the highlighted part.  But I have to disagree with your concluson that it is a result of oppression or at least not always so.  I do not think that moral character knows any nationality.  I think it is a learned trait passed on from one generation of family to another.  While the root source of the behavior you describe may be born from a family being in desperate circumstances, the questionable moral character is passed on long after the desperate enviornment is improved.  Case on point is my American family vs. Lena's Russian family.

My American family displays all the negative traits that have been used here to describe Russians.  Sure, in the beginning they were desperate immigrants trying to establish themselves in a new society and I am sure that the harshness of living in an industrialized area of Detroit had some influence too, but the lack of moral character continued on long after the desperate situations disappeared.  Moral character is taught at the dinner table and by example of day to day living, not by society.  Can the string be broken?  Of course it can, but not without much difficulty.  I would like to think that I did just that and passed on some lofty ethics and high moral character to my children.

When I logically examine Lena's family, it is a whole different story.  Like night and day with my own.  Her's being the one with the high morality and lofty ethics.  I found no convienent truths or white lies coming from her address, EVER.  No twisting and abusing of honesty or deceptions to authority in any way.  A further irony is that my MIL holds a government position.  It is almost an accepted fact here that all government officials can be bribed or bought for a price.  I can tell you from first hand experience that that is indeed not true.  My MIL has walked a long and difficult road of integrety and honesty well above being enfluenced by any possible short term inducement to bend the rules for a price.  For her actions and reputation, she has been a most feared woman in the city governement.  Feared by those who would like to use a bribe and also feared by those who took the bribes.

Maybe Lena and her family are the exceptions to the rule.  And maybe my family is too.  Maybe there is some relativity to the social backgrounds of the women most common to seek a foreign man?  But just because some of the low moral character traits are accepted by many in Russia, does not mean every Russian is of low moral character either.
KenC

[krimster]

So I gives youse like da bestest bits of knowledge bout dem in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republiks.

Dey drinks tea and not coffee, callin it chai.  Chai only be havin 1/3 the caffeine as coffee, 1/4 if it's Jamaican coffee, coz of that Soviet peoples don move as fast as people say like in New York City.

Da people dere is well poor.  Dere be no shops in de USSR fer clothes fer pets like in the USA.  Dey cannot afford threads fa their aminal dere, so the dogs is all like naked, fer real!

If youse lives in South Amerika or where da Kangaroos be, and youse comes to the USSR fer like a visit and you flushes da toilette, da water goes da opposite direction, it's like a rule invented by some geezer called Stalin, so da nice lady sweepin da street told me .  Also be noted toilettes in USSR different from like those elsewhere.  Soviet toilettes put excrements on top for youse to better judge if youse have a contest to see whose is bigga, other countries put at the bottom fer youse to cheat, Soviet toilettes stop cheatin!  Me thinks this Stalin geezer was da one who come up wid dis as well.

Dere be not many bruvers in the USSR.  Wot over dere de call "Caucasians" don mean the same as it mean to youse.

Over dere is many Muslins who have like a different Bog, and deys all sing on top of minuets.  Sometimes dey don eat on a holiday dey call Ramadamadingdong.


So, I's keepin it real, Ya gots to respect







 

[KenC]

Live with adversity, add knowledge and you end up with a very creative mind.

One example:

Almost 10 years ago I started working with a crew of programmers in Ukraine developing b2b internet applications.  For many years they had a very slow internet connection 64kb/s type.  Compared to other developers their product worked faster with less and much more efficient code.

One of our business customer today is in an area where broadband is not available and is working over a slow ISDN line (one channel 64kb) He is very appreciative that our platform works even under these circumstances.

Having the same programs written by western programmers (tried before) were not able to match in terms of performance.  Why? they have the luxury of multi megabit connections to the internet and write their code in a bulky manner.

My wife may take me to task when doing projects around the house.  At first I balked 'my way'.. but in the end many times ended up adopting her solution.

FIL chopped down about 10 huge trees on our property primarily with a small hand axe and hand saw.. limb for limb.  I bought a power saw that he quickly learned to use for the 4 foot wide trunks, but even without it I am sure he would have somehow managed to cut even those into kindling.. just would have taken more time and maybe a bigger hand saw.

Take a look at many of their technological accomplishments.. they did send up the first sputnik, first man in space, first spacewalk and even the first woman in space (I think the first tourist too).  They sent round balls into orbit back in 61 and guess what, those round balls are still going up today.  May not be pretty or have the latest buzzers and whistles but they sure do get the job done with unparalleled safety.

Luxury creates waste.. I hope their creativity remains with increasing wealth.

BC,
Your post reminded me of the story about how NASA spent millions of dollars to develop a pen that could be used in outer sace.  It had to be able to write upside down and without the benifit of gravity.  The Russians simply used a pencil.
KenC

[Lily]

  But just because some of the low moral character traits are accepted by many in Russia, does not mean every Russian is of low moral character either.
 

Of course not every Russian is. I should have added to my post the word 'SOME Russians'.

[BC]

BC,
Your post reminded me of the story about how NASA spent millions of dollars to develop a pen that could be used in outer sace.  It had to be able to write upside down and without the benifit of gravity.  The Russians simply used a pencil.
KenC

Yeah, had one of those.. worked pretty crappy on earth and IIRC ruined a couple shirts.. my handwriting did not improve at all.

Think of Darwinism without adversity (current status of many western countries) and FSU.. who will produce the better man of the future?

I intentionally left out woman in my statement above.. seems that is already in favor of FSU.

Considering their new economic might, pretty scary huh?