When is it OK to ask a RW to change her religion for you

[goforit]

A couple of weeks ago I started working with a AM client who is a devout Catholic.
Within a weeks time he started communicating with several RW and he liked one in particular very much. They exchange 3 or 4 letters, basic stuff, nothing too deep or romantic yet and then he decided to tell her that a woman he'd marry will have to convert to catholicism and ask her if she would be willing to do that if they get to that point. He's logic was that he'd rather let her know early on, before they get too deep into relationship, and if she is not open to changing her faith for him, not to waste time persuing a relationship with her.

I think his logic is impeccable. In fact I think waiting for 3 or 4 letters is too long. If he is serious about his faith then he should make that known up front, so that he will attract women who also have the same concern. This should be as much a part of his "profile" as anything else he deems important enough to "filter" for in looking for a bride. That way he only begins to build a relationship with someone who already shares his basic criteria and outlook on life.

Now I think this is a very important and serious issue, so I hope we can have a mature and interesting discussion here.

Now, here is my opinion:

I shared with my client that in my opinion it was way too early to talk about changing her faith in order to marry him.

It might be way to early to be talking to someone about changing their faith, but it isn't to early to be talking about the importance of his faith. That way if he runs into someone for whom this is not acceptable, she will disqualify herself. If he meets someone who is serious about their Christianity, but doesn't want to marry a Catholic, she can dismiss herself as well. If he meets someone who is serious about Christianity, not a Catholic, but is willing to change, he will find that out. And finally he may meet someone who is exactly where he is in regards to Catholicism, and then they can move forward from there and see if there is any promise to the relationship.

I told him "you are just getting to know each other, she doesn't have any feelings for you, you are just a prospect for her, probably one of a number of prospects, just like she is for you. If she is deeply religious and has a strong faith, why in the world would she even consider changing it for you - the person she hasn't even met in real life, somebody she just saw a few pictures of and exchanged a few basic letters? Someone that she does not have a relationship with yet, or feelings for? If her faith is very strong, most likely she will just tell you "NO" and forget about you and move on to other prospects.

And that is precisely why your client should mention it up front. If he wants to marry a Catholic, if that is a non-negotiable for him, he should let that be known right away. In fact, in searching of this nature, I think ALL non-negotiables should be put up front. It might be one, two or five, but why waste the time and effort on someone who in the end it won't work out anyway, even if everything else is okay?

Listen, I'm just not marrying a women who doesn't want to have children. End of story. I don't want to take 3 or 4 letters to find that out or any of the other non-negotiables that I have. A nicely put together intro can get all of this out in an interesting and entertaining way, and yet make very clear what is up for grabs and what isn't.

If her faith is strong but she said "YES"  AT THIS POINT then she probably is not sincere and has ulterior motives to marry you. I think that if a persons faith is sincere it is one of the most powerful emotions/feelings a person could have. People have been killing other people because of faith differences from the beginning of time!!! that's how strong it is!!!

I understand your point but people have been killing since the beginning of time for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with faith.

There is only one thing that can be stronger, and it is LOVE. If a person falls in love with you she might compromise and convert to a different faith to be with the one she loves. The point is that before you talk to someone about changing their faith, love must be there first IMO! So you need to take your chances and develop a relationship, fall in love with each other first, before giving her an ultimatum like that.

Absolutely, unequivocally, no! Before anyone lets "love" cloud the picture they need to be very clear about faith if it is very important to them. The very example you give above illustrates why love cannot go first. You better have your non-negotiable criteria satisfied before you start talking about and falling in love or you are just courting a disaster.

The other scenario is that she might not be very religious and it might not even be a big issue for her when it comes to that point.

Again, which is why it should be brought out up front. If she is not very serious and he is, then it is and/or will be a very big issue at some point in time.

Try to put yourself in her place. You are talking to 5-6 girls right now. You have a very strong faith. If one of these girls told you at this point that the future marriage is not possible unless you, a catholic man convert and become a baptist or Pentecostal or Russian orthodox, doesn't matter which one, what would you do?

If I was a serious Catholic man I would say this, "Thanks, sweetie for that information. I don't think you and I are on the same page so its probably best that we not cultivate something that won't work in the long run."

Probably just say "next" and forget her.

Exactly.

I don't think that there is a huge issue here, you both are Christians and just happen to belong to 2 different schools of thought on Christianity, but you still believe in the same God and if you two fall in love with each other it shouldn't be a huge obstacle to your happiness together. I've seen a Jew marrying a Muslim and a Catholic marrying a Jew and they live happily.

But see what you think is not really at issue here. And I'm not trying to be confrontational but only pointing out that they are not marrying you Among serious adherents of those two "schools of thought" they do think there is a huge issue, big enough to go to great lengths to make sure you raise any children in their faith, should the Church even allow the marriage in the first place.

And make no mistake about it, a serious adherent of traditional Judaism, Islam, or Roman Catholicism will have to do one of two things in marrying someone of a different faith, convert them, or abandon her own faith or greatly compromise his faith in some way.

The bottom line is: let love come first, then talk religion."
This is just my opinion, it would be interesting to see what other people think on this subject.

I think if anyone follows that advice they are headed for a heap of trouble.

[SANDRO43]

As far as I know both believe in the sanctity of 3 - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

However,

While the original Nicene Creed read "We believe in the Holy Spirit ... who proceeds from the Father", the amended, Roman Catholic version reads "We believe in the Holy Spirit ... who proceeds from the Father and the Son".

The filioque clause, added in 589, was one of the many theological points on which Rome and Constantinople argued for centuries over a number of Ecumenical Councils. A matter of precedence, as well as that involving the Bishops of the two major Christian cities, Rome initially considered 1st but later Constantinople attaining equal rank, since it had become politically more important. The two churches finally split in 1054, excommunicating each other and going their separate ways theologically.

See http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/michael_theschism.htm for the "Eastern" viewpoint on the story. I would also refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church, were it not for a VERY curious incipit of the article:

The Eastern Orthodox Church is the second largest dickhead in the nasty Christian communion in the world.

Wikipedia's editors must have been sound asleep .

P.S.: MOST curious, the offending words are no longer there, 20 minutes later .

The Eastern Orthodox Church is the second largest single Christian communion in the world.

A blitz by atheist hackers ?

[goforit]

I think you all make great points and I appreciate your input!
There is a place on a profile where a person put their religion. My client's profile states "Chrisitian" and I only contact women who's profile says "Christian" and skip the ones who put Atheist or Muslim for instance. But I've never seen anyone mention which denomination of the Christian faith they belong to. Is there a profound difference between Catholicism and Russian orthodox? This is an honest question if someone has an answer I'd love to learn. I've been to Russian orthodox church wedding ceremonies, and a few Catholic ones. As far as I know both believe in the sanctity of 3 - the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. The rituals were slightly different and the icons in Russian churches look different (uniquely Greek&Russian style). Other than that what are the differences?

Eduard,

On one level you can see some similarities, but on a deeper level the differences can be profound. I could easily list a number of the major differences but that would take us well outside the scope of this list.

[goforit]

It doesn't really matter what the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy are, your client wants to marry a Catholic.  That's gotta be explained in some way beyond choosing a category from a drop down menu.  Even if there's a box for "Catholic", he needs to add something like "My faith is very important to me" in the description.  And tell the ladies now.  Do it nicely, but tell them!

It would indeed be odd to meet someone in say, a grocery store, and start discussing religious beliefs right away.  Frankly, I think that is a huge advantage to online dating - you get to know these things up front.   Take advantage of that.

Couldn't agree more.

[Eduard]

I think if anyone follows that advice they are headed for a heap of trouble.

Before you guys jump on my ars about this let me give you a little background on what actually transpired. When my client decided to retain me to help him find a suitible life partner, he told me that he was a Christian and it was important for him that a woman would also be Christian. There was no mention of what denomination he is or she must be. The "convert to Catholicism" subject only came up the day before yesterday when he discussed with me telling this one girl that it would be important for him to have a Catholic ceremony, because his family wouldn't have it any other way. I outlined my opinion on the subject, but I also explained that I'm not a 100% sure and would actually like to get other people's opinions, listen, learn and maybe even be convinced that I was wrong in my way of thinking about this.
Although you make some good points, I don't neccessarily agree with your:

I think if anyone follows that advice they are headed for a heap of trouble.

According to your theory, there shouldn't exist any mixed faith couples. yet we all know that there are plenty of them and the ones that I knew personally have great marriages and were very happy. I still think that when there is love envolved any issues can be dealt with.
You should also know, that I'm not making any decisions for my client. He is the one who decides how we procede. He and I had a discussion about this and agreed that it might be good to get feed back of the RWD community, therefore I created this thread. He just read through the entire thread and emailed me with what I think is a great idea:
Why don't we have an Orthodox ceremony in Russia for her family, and then a Catholic ceremony for my family in the US?

[UTRO]

So his potential Bride's conversion to Catholicism really isn't necessary? He will forego this 'demand'?

[Simoni]

I do not think that there is profound difference... they use the same Bible afterall just interpret it the way it works for them... so there are some doctrinal differences... traditions and the way of celebrating holidays slightly different...

There is actually more differences between protestant churches here in this city than the differences I found in my faith and some FSU women.

But the answer to the original question will depend on the faith of the guy and his belief system.  Many Christian men will say it's all in God's hands, and trust in Him to bring the couple together and to worship God as a family in the future.

[Simoni]

Now, here is my opinion:
I shared with my client that in my opinion it was way too early to talk about changing her faith in order to marry him. I told him "you are just getting to know each other, she doesn't have any feelings for you, you are just a prospect for her, probably one of a number of prospects, just like she is for you.

Excellent advice.

[Jazzyclassy]

You know the whole idea is really really strange

of course a person might have such desire to once change his belief just cos his wife /her hubby has  different belief and he wants sort of be in the same religious format.

But from the philosopical point of view it is such a silly thing to do , how can you totally change yourself, your faith just in order to suit somebody , let it be the most close person to you, but first of all we are here in this life in order to change ourselves to be much more better than we are, but not trying to suit somebody's beliefs which can be even wrong for example

If a person trully loves you and is ready to accept you for who you are and for what you believe , these things do not matter, plus as we say orthodox and protestants or catholics are christians so there is not much of a change, if that person is muslim and his partner is christian  it also can work out ok, well only if that muslim is not practicing his religion, well  if he does, then he would not have met his christian partner and then they would not have  been together! Cos usually they choose partners from their own religion usually, if they are strictly muslim.

Life is too short to be able to change your religion like gloves , it is not playing games, I understand for some people religion means nothing and they can be whatever they want , but that sais a lot about those people then......

[Eduard]

So his potential Bride's conversion to Catholicism really isn't necessary? He will forego this 'demand'?

I will try to keep you posted on what he decides to do, but from what I understand since he wrote to me that he wouldn't mind having an Orthodox wedding in Russia for her, I tend to think that having a Catholic ceremony and raise children Catholic is not so much for him, but maybe mostly to appease his family (especially the ceremony part)
It is his decision though.
I thank everyone for your input and opinions!

[goforit]

Before you guys jump on my ars about this let me give you a little background on what actually transpired. When my client decided to retain me to help him find a suitible life partner, he told me that he was a Christian and it was important for him that a woman would also be Christian. There was no mention of what denomination he is or she must be. The "convert to Catholicism" subject only came up the day before yesterday when he discussed with me telling this one girl that it would be important for him to have a Catholic ceremony, because his family wouldn't have it any other way.

My bad. When you said "devout Catholic" I had a certain idea in mind. Generally speaking devout Catholics wouldn't be concerned about a Catholic ceremony just because there family wants it that way, they would be concerned because they want it that way. Anyway, this suggests that Catholicism is not the deal breaker that it first came off to be.

According to your theory, there shouldn't exist any mixed faith couples. yet we all know that there are plenty of them and the ones that I knew personally have great marriages and were very happy. I still think that when there is love envolved any issues can be dealt with.

Well then you misread my theory. I know of plenty of professing mixed faith marriages, but that is not the same as actually being a mixed faith marriage. And I know a number of those marriages that are doing quite well. By that isn't what I was talking about.

If a person is devout, meaning they follow their faith strictly, then that will by definition put them in conflict with someone who has a different faith which they follow strictly. There are lots of people who claim to be this and that but in their every day walk it makes no practical difference. They tone down their faith in such a way that is quite compatible and really indistinguishable from anyone else who carries the name Christian.

But a serious and devout United Pentecostal (for example) is going to struggle mightily with the theology and every day practical differences of Russian Orthodox Christian. That fact is plain as day for strict and serious adherents of either faith, if not to those outside who think such things shouldn't matter and it can all be worked out.

I had one impression of your client from what you wrote earlier, now I have a different impression and think indeed he can probably work it out.

You should also know, that I'm not making any decisions for my client. He is the one who decides how we procede. He and I had a discussion about this and agreed that it might be good to get feed back of the RWD community, therefore I created this thread.

I didn't think you were. I was just making a general comment. Nor was I trying to jump on your arse and be combative.

He just read through the entire thread and emailed me with what I think is a great idea:
Why don't we have an Orthodox ceremony in Russia for her family, and then a Catholic ceremony for my family in the US?

If he can pull it off more power to him. However I don't know of any Orthodox Church in America that would agree to that plan. Maybe it is different in Russia. I wonder are they planning on having children?

[Shadow]

As the client is reading the topic, just let me express my amazement that in three pages e went from demanding her to convert to a double ceremony. Perhaps if we let Simoni explain the Orthodox religion he will be the one that converts.

[Sort]

"When is it OK to ask a RW to change her religion for you?"
What stupid question is that?
why is she the one that needs to change her religion??

If this is so imprtant for him about his religion can't he ask himself that question??
Would he change his religion for her??

I am a ateist and don't believe in that crap, yes i call it crap and that is my opinion...OK
Everyone is free to either belive or not.

[Simoni]

My bad. When you said "devout Catholic" I had a certain idea in mind. Generally speaking devout Catholics wouldn't be concerned about a Catholic ceremony just because there family wants it that way, they would be concerned because they want it that way. Anyway, this suggests that Catholicism is not the deal breaker that it first came off to be.

Yeah, it's all in the meaning of devout, which different people have different meanings for.   I read it as "serious."    And even that word has degrees of meaning.  That is why I suggested that one should not be overly concerned about the girl's faith too soon.

We have to be careful here.  Politics and Religion are dangerous topics to discuss :-)  LOL

I have found that when people look to God and not to religion, it all works out.  And when a couple both look at God, they grow closer together.

Perhaps if we let Simoni explain the Orthodox religion he will be the one that converts.

Marina and I both "converted" and attend a non-denominational church.  She likes it a lot.
Readers can check out my blog here for more info.

[Simoni]

You know the whole idea is really really strange

Life is too short to be able to change your religion like gloves , it is not playing games, I understand for some people religion means nothing and they can be whatever they want , but that sais a lot about those people then......

What happens is that when the couple has children, that want to worship together as a family.  That is why many couples change churches.  And for many religious people in the US, church is not just a beautiful building on a corner, but an important aspect that permeates their lives.

[Misha]

I will try to keep you posted on what he decides to do, but from what I understand since he wrote to me that he wouldn't mind having an Orthodox wedding in Russia for her, I tend to think that having a Catholic ceremony and raise children Catholic is not so much for him, but maybe mostly to appease his family (especially the ceremony part)
It is his decision though.
I thank everyone for your input and opinions!

Unless he finds a woman who is extremely devout in her faith, having a wedding ceremony in a Catholic Church should not be a problem. She doesn't have to convert, but she should have a baptismal certificate. If they get married in North America in a Catholic Church, they will likely have to attend some form of marriage preparation course. The priest who is going to marry them (Catholic or Orthodox) will likely be interested in knowing whether the children will be raised Catholic or Orthodox.

[Jazzyclassy]

What happens is that when the couple has children, that want to worship together as a family.  That is why many couples change churches.  And for many religious people in the US, church is not just a beautiful building on a corner, but an important aspect that permeates their lives.

but that does not mean your wife has to change her relgion go to any church you want ,God is the one,  you measure things with something really superficial , believe me if there is no belief in heart, no church will help this person. Finally there are so many kids who know both religions and that makes them more opened and more tolerant to people, they try understand both traditions and customs of church of their parents.

Let the child choose in what he will believe, you can only advise but you can not just ask him or her

[Sort]

Life is too short to be able to change your religion like gloves , it is not playing games, I understand for some people religion means nothing and they can be whatever they want , but that sais a lot about those people then......

OK
And wtf is this suppose to mean?
since i am NOT a believer of any religion but i do respect people that have believes as long as they respect me for not joining the flock.
Or do you have a special "gift" that can tell what kind of person we all ateists are???
I do respect and have meny friends that believe in god and all that but your words just pisses me of.
Are you in somehow better then other just because you believe in a OLD book???

[AnastassiaAsh]

"When is it OK to ask a RW to change her religion for you?"
What stupid question is that?
why is she the one that needs to change her religion??

If this is so imprtant for him about his religion can't he ask himself that question??
Would he change his religion for her??

I am a ateist and don't believe in that crap, yes i call it crap and that is my opinion...OK
Everyone is free to either belive or not.

Hey Sort, your signature line actually has much more meaning than your words above.  It is funny how zealously unbelievers start shouting Jesus' name and praying to Him when for example it seems their airplane starts going down or there is lots of nasty turbulence.   

[Sort]

Hey Anastassia.

No i do not shout for Jesus and i am not a jealous unbeliever.

I only wonder why should "she" change her religion and not him?
And since they are both christian but a little different meaning then why change at all?
I don't know or care about the religion you have or anyone else.
I do not look and ask what kind of religion someone have, every one is totaly free to have any religion as long as they respect that there are people that don't share there opinion.

P.S
My Plane is going UP......you know what i mean...

[Shadow]

Lets not get too much in debating religion, no matter which standpoint you have on it.
True religion is in your heart and not in any scripture or place.

If you find comfort in sharing your religion with those of similar beliefs, that will only be a good thing.

And Sort, Atheism is a religion as 0 is a number. 

[Simoni]

but that does not mean your wife has to change her relgion go to any church you want ,God is the one,  you measure things with something really superficial , believe me if there is no belief in heart, no church will help this person.

You quoted me, but you missed my point.  I did not say she had to convert to my church. I wrote...

Marina and I both "converted" and attend a non-denominational church.  She likes it a lot.
Readers can check out my blog here for more info.

We actually visited  four churches when we moved here.  One was Orthodox.  One was Methodist.  The one we both like is non-denominational, which is great becasue we are both moving to something new. Same God though :-)

[myrddin]

Life is too short to be able to change your religion like gloves , it is not playing games, I understand for some people religion means nothing and they can be whatever they want , but that sais a lot about those people then......

I interpreted this as concerning people who only mouth beliefs, whatever they are, people who will say something like "sure, I'll change my religion!" because it doesn't mean anything to them.  My own philosophy is atheist, but I do think compatibility of belief (or non-belief) is important, which is why I would never expect someone to change a religious belief without deep reflection.  In fact, I'd be suspicious of a person who had a flippant attitude about it.  

Doesn't matter if *I* think two branches of Christianity are similar enough, what matters is if the difference *to him* is important enough to call things off.  I think too many people try to downplay these differences, these are  questions.

And btw, when I fly, I trust in the skill of the pilot and the mechanics, not in prayer .  Sure, it makes me a little nervous, but I have more confidence in them than the crazy drivers on the highway!

[Simoni]

Lets not get too much in debating religion, no matter which standpoint you have on it.
True religion is in your heart and not in any scripture or place.

And Sort, Atheism is a religion as 0 is a number. 

Excellent post, Shadow.  On all points.

[myrddin]

Yeah, let's not debate religion or atheism here

The point is that fundamental beliefs are a very important issue two people need to settle between themselves.  It shouldn't be ignored, lessened, or left to be discussed at a later date, whatever the specific views involved are.