What's wrong with this picture?

[groovlstk]

groov, are you trying to hurt my best feelings?! :PI have my own apartment and live alone.I have travelled to the US

Hmm, that puts you somewhere between red and orange flag territory 

Guys who make decisions about their relationships based on silly details (or who come here seeking the opinions of other people about such nonsense) are not worth a moment of your time.

[Serebro]

Hmm, that puts you somewhere between red and orange flag territory 

Guys who make decisions about their relationships based on silly details (or who come here seeking the opinions of other people about such nonsense) are not worth a moment of your time.

lol:)
groov, why can't successful and hard working girls have serious intentions to find their love abroad?!
Thousands of Russian students go to Europe or to the USA every year and they have to learn some English or any other language, after graduation many of them leave their parents' home, so shall we put them to the scammers' category just because they don't want to marry RM but look for their future partners abroad?!

[KenC]

lol:)
groov, why can't successful and hard working girls have serious intentions to find their love abroad?!

Serebro,
The answer is because the flag says so!  Do not try to use logic here as Groov is just making a joke about the ridiculous quasi rules some come up with.
KenC

[Gator]

I also thought Groov was making a joke with most of his flags, yet a couple of his flags are correct (to me).  Maybe it is just Groov's whimsy moment for the week.

[groovlstk]

lol:)
groov, why can't successful and hard working girls have serious intentions to find their love abroad?!
Thousands of Russian students go to Europe or to the USA every year and they have to learn some English or any other language, after graduation many of them leave their parents' home, so shall we put them to the scammers' category just because they don't want to marry RM but look for their future partners abroad?!

Of course not, otherwise I'd have never married my wife

My post was 100% jest, as I can't help but shake my head when I see a guy asking people in a public forum whether or not he's being scammed.

I also find it strange that a guy will go to any length to convince others that his girl has a 'good, stable life' and isn't the least bit desperate. But her ambition and 'good life' must have very finite limits - if she's successful enough to travel abroad or she's as fluent in English as Blues Fairy, suddenly her good life is a little too good and she must have achieved such success in some immoral fashion. It just doesn't make much sense, and I suspect it's another case of guys painting women with a black brush simply because if he can't play the role of a savior in her life, she has no use for him.

[Gator]

Anyway, it was improper to have posted her private letter and private photos anywhere in a public forum.  It is good that Phantom removed them.

Phantom, just write her some more and then call her.  Communication between the two of you will reveal far more than idle chatter from the Peanuts Gallery.

As far as the sex angle, I think she is saying don't count on having sex until she likes you and she knows that you like her.  Nothing wrong with that.  If she did mention past problems that indicate a sex tourist took advantage of her, I would find her candor very refreshing.  A pro dater would attempt to attract you with the promise of sex.

[KenC]

Of course not, otherwise I'd have never married my wife

My post was 100% jest, as I can't help but shake my head when I see a guy asking people in a public forum whether or not he's being scammed.

I also find it strange that a guy will go to any length to convince others that his girl has a 'good, stable life' and isn't the least bit desperate. But her ambition and 'good life' must have very finite limits - if she's successful enough to travel abroad or she's as fluent in English as Blues Fairy, suddenly her good life is a little too good and she must have achieved such success in some immoral fashion. It just doesn't make much sense, and I suspect it's another case of guys painting women with a black brush simply because if he can't play the role of a savior in her life, she has no use for him.

Groov,
To me the "best" one is when a guy lists the RW on every scammer list known to man right after she dumped his dead azz!  She was OK as long as he still had a shot at her.
KenC

[Ronnie]

As far as the sex angle, I think she is saying don't count on having sex until she likes you and she knows that you like her.  Nothing wrong with that.  If she did mention past problems that indicate a sex tourist took advantage of her, I would find her candor very refreshing.  A pro dater would attempt to attract you with the promise of sex.

Well Gator, I really don't mean to be contrarian to your point...but. 
I did have one lady tell me that due to her going to Germany to meet a man and staying in his home for two weeks and having sex in the process, she came to the conclusion that it would be better not to do that again.  I had no problem with her premise.

However, it became apparent that she using this kinda reverse psychology to get a marriage proposal.  When one didn't come, she made the proposal herself in a backwards way by telling me that if I proposed she would accept.  I decide she was playing the sex card, albeit in an unorthodox way, to achieve her goal.

I cut off the relationship mainly because I observed the way she used her mother as her personal servant.

[Gator]

Ronnie,

Sorry, I got lost somewhere around the time you were playing strip poker with her mother. 

Women are complicated, for sure.  Just when you think you understand them, they change.  It is best not to try to figure out what is happening in that capsule which sits atop their shoulders.

[phantom]

Gator,
That was wrong you're right to post her personal letter and picture here.  I wrote her back, asking her questions and answering the ones that she asked me.  Then told her, I wasn't looking for a toy, but a wife.  So, afera few letters, I'll give her a call.  That was the first letter I got written like tat, outsid of an agency,where one of the ladies I correpond ith for awhile now, writes me from.  That's why I was a little perplexed and cautious about it, plus the guy taking the picture.

All good advice here, I don't throw up red flags for girls that have traveled. 

[SANDRO43]

Elena's Anti-Scam book makes some excellent points and I recommend it.

Anything that might be worth including in our Scam Card (Scam Avoidance menu at left) ?

[myrddin]

Anything that might be worth including in our Scam Card (Scam Avoidance menu at left) ?

Not sure about that, most red flags are covered.  One thing that makes newbies feel foolish is how these are all common knowledge to the initiated  . 

She mentions some simple ways to take money out of the early relationship (you still have to pay for things, but not directly to her).

An interesting point: if of 100 women there are 99 sincere ladies and 1 scammer, figure a sincere lady can handle at most 10 correspondents.  That's 990 letters.  The scammer can pump out 3,000 form letters.  Tough odds, but the fact is there are a lot of sincere ladies.  Which is a good reason to not get paranoid (aside from the fact that living so suspiciously is very draining).

Of course any woman wants to know about your ability to provide, but a sincere woman is highly unlikely to ask you for money even if she really needs it.  If things go well, eventually you gladly give her everything anyway 

[Lily]

Hmm, that puts you somewhere between red and orange flag territory 

Guys who make decisions about their relationships based on silly details (or who come here seeking the opinions of other people about such nonsense) are not worth a moment of your time.

Groovlstk, by your classification Lily is a mayday scarlett red flag  ???
You know I am not.

On your flag one  - yes my colleagues thourough years of my life used to be the hghly educated Western men. I used to communicate to them every day, most of my working time. I have no idea how much they make. However I like their personalities, their mentality and way of perceiving things. They also contributed to my wish to find a man like themselves for me, and to make him happy 

On your flag two - I rent a flat in Moscow for myself. Bedtime 10 pm.Where are my lovers to entertain, if I may to ask you? I think they are somewhere on dating sites, and are unknown to me so far. Having a flat for yourself does not mean a woman has lovers    even if I'd be a 20 y.o. student, having lovers to entertain depends totally on the personality. One would have them all time, even if living with parents or husband  Another would hardly have lovers even if she lives alone and visits social events about once a week.

On your flag three - why on earth a high end domestic income and an international career are the rer flags?? By the way, where on your scale of suspiciosness does a U.S. diploma stands? a scarlett red flag with big fringes?

I hope I will not meet a lot of men with similar views.

[groovlstk]

Groovlstk, by your classification Lily is a mayday scarlett red flag  ???
You know I am not.

On your flag one  - yes my colleagues thourough years of my life used to be the hghly educated Western men. I used to communicate to them every day, most of my working time. I have no idea how much they make. However I like their personalities, their mentality and way of perceiving things. They also contributed to my wish to find a man like themselves for me, and to make him happy 

On your flag two - I rent a flat in Moscow for myself. Bedtime 10 pm.Where are my lovers to entertain, if I may to ask you? I think they are somewhere on dating sites, and are unknown to me so far. Having a flat for yourself does not mean a woman has lovers    even if I'd be a 20 y.o. student, having lovers to entertain depends totally on the personality. One would have them all time, even if living with parents or husband  Another would hardly have lovers even if she lives alone and visits social events about once a week.

On your flag three - why on earth a high end domestic income and an international career are the rer flags?? By the way, where on your scale of suspiciosness does a U.S. diploma stands? a scarlett red flag with big fringes?

I hope I will not meet a lot of men with similar views.

Lily, my post was 100% in jest, poking fun at the way some guys analyze details in a woman's correspondence and then come here looking for advice. I would consider none of the things I listed as red flags - I simply find it amusing how some guys try to apply what they think is logic when deciding on which women to continue writing and which seem too risky, all based on some silly aspect like her level of English or career prospects. 

[I/O]

This whole red flag thing reminds me of a kid I once saw trying to force a (Several as it turned out) peeled, boiled eggs into an empty beer bottle. Kinda like Casanova....every way he touched it a 'effed it and went through several eggs in the process without success.

When the then science teacher arrived and dropped a little water into the bottle, heated it to steaming then sat the egg on top and advised us to wait and watch, I remember, even as a young kid, thinking to myself, this guy has a life clue or two if he can suck an egg into a bottle without damaging it.

I/O

[myrddin]

It's useful to know about some basic red flags, but sometimes we need to step back a bit and borrow a cluebat.  Just imagine some poor sap obsessed with rating scam signals who'd miss out on some of the ladies here.   

I'm not really excited about counting spaces or running numbers.  As an aside, I happen to think English ability is debatable as a red flag - I've heard from scammers with widely varying English writing skills.  I think it gets ever easier to spot the classic scams.

The easiest and best way of determining motive is by the *content* of the correspondence (not just one message).  Someone mentioned in another context (in another thread), the idea of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.  Think about what someone sincere would say and would want to know.  Does she (or he!) pay attention to you as an individual? Does she only talk about details of her own life?  Are her dreams for the future generic?  Does she ever talk about doing things specifically related to your (hopefully) mutual interests (for example, types of music, literature, hobbies)? 

These are questions even I managed to ask myself in my pre-newbie days, long before I discovered RWD.  I admit that it was largely luck that saved my bank account, but I wasn't upset when they disappeared (presumably it was just too much effort to get money out of me).

[KenC]

It's useful to know about some basic red flags, but sometimes we need to step back a bit and borrow a cluebat.  Just imagine some poor sap obsessed with rating scam signals who'd miss out on some of the ladies here.   

I'm not really excited about counting spaces or running numbers.  As an aside, I happen to think English ability is debatable as a red flag - I've heard from scammers with widely varying English writing skills.  I think it gets ever easier to spot the classic scams.

The easiest and best way of determining motive is by the *content* of the correspondence (not just one message).  Someone mentioned in another context (in another thread), the idea of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.  Think about what someone sincere would say and would want to know.  Does she (or he!) pay attention to you as an individual? Does she only talk about details of her own life?  Are her dreams for the future generic?  Does she ever talk about doing things specifically related to your (hopefully) mutual interests (for example, types of music, literature, hobbies)? 

These are questions even I managed to ask myself in my pre-newbie days, long before I discovered RWD.  I admit that it was largely luck that saved my bank account, but I wasn't upset when they disappeared (presumably it was just too much effort to get money out of me).

Myrddin,
Sometimes I think the newbies get almost too much information and we make them all paranoid.    It is a fine line you guys need to walk, not too naive and yet not too cynical either.  Yes, there are RW who have scammed men in the past, but there is a plethora a good women in the fsu too.  You just cannot hang on every word spoken or written by a RW.  If there is something communicated that just doesn't smell right, don't run for cover, but make a mental note for later.  If the red flags continue along a predictable path, then cut bait and move on.  But keep in mind two things:  English is not the woman's native language and she may miscommunicate things and never pass off bad behavior as a cultural difference.
KenC

[Gator]

I agree with KenC, and this has been my philosophy from Day One.  In fact, I may have been too carefree and just got lucky because I treated each encounter the same as dating an AW. 

Basically , my goal was to have fun with an interesting woman.  If the fun ended, or never started, I moved on. 

I avoided the brief meetings of power dating or interviewing.  No one likes to be interrogated and perhaps they are not the same as in normal life.  Almost all of my dates were prearranged for at least an afternoon, sometimes a week. 

One can learn a lot by just observing,  how she shows her city to me, pages through books at a book store, smells the roses literally and figuratively, selects something to eat from a menu,  volunteers something interesting, reacts with strangers (e. g., sales staff or someone giving directions), enjoys music, savors her ice cream, smiles and relaxes, nurses a drink, etc.

I did not look for hidden meanings or devious plots.  If something really confused me, I asked a question, and the ensuing discussion was usually light.

Perhaps I was just lucky.  Yet, the RW I met seemed just as at ease as AW from home.  For sure there is more "fuzzy background static" than with an AW, yet it makes sense given enough time together.

[phantom]

Hey,

I also put in the letter, I didn't want someone that was playing games or just interested in money and I haven't heard back fom he yet. 

[myrddin]

I wouldn't worry about a few days, people can be busy and tired.  If it goes another few days, send a reminder.  If not, maybe try one more later or move on.

Could also be a communication/language problem depending how money comes up - she might take that as being cheap (or "greedy").  I understand that direct questioning about scam issues will be seen as an accusation by a sincere RW, who will bolt.

KenC's got a point about paranoia.  I try to approach this all with "cautious optimism", but if I absolutely had to choose one or the other, go with optimism!  And Gator, there's no doubt in my mind there's luck involved, but I respect that you guys put yourself in a place where it could happen.

[catzenmouse]

And Gator, there's no doubt in my mind there's luck involved, but I respect that you guys put yourself in a place where it could happen.

No amount of luck/opportunities in the world will help a man if he does not get up off of it and actually put himself out there.

In many ways we make our own luck by doing just that. The searching part of this is not rocket science or beyond what any reasonably intelligent person can accomplish. Heck, what could be better than visiting a very cool place and meeting/dating some beautiful women? Enjoy the hunt, use the upper head to find your way around, and pay attention to the clues that are floating all around you.

Ken

[Ronnie]

The best was to inoculate yourself against scammers is to not write at all until after you've met and formed a healthy relationship.   Save your money, pick a city (throw a dart blindfolded at a map if you must), arrange for accomodations and a local agency to pick you up and arranage dates and then just go.

Meet the ladies at the agency for a few minutes of one-on-one conversation.  Don't look at her body or her smile.  Look at her eyes, they will reveal how she feels about you.

The only thing left is to evaluate your own feelings and determine if the match will be a good one.

[Shadow]

The best was to inoculate yourself against scammers is to not write at all until after you've met and formed a healthy relationship.   Save your money, pick a city (throw a dart blindfolded at a map if you must), arrange for accomodations and a local agency to pick you up and arranage dates and then just go.

Meet the ladies at the agency for a few minutes of one-on-one conversation.  Don't look at her body or her smile.  Look at her eyes, they will reveal how she feels about you.

The only thing left is to evaluate your own feelings and determine if the match will be a good one.

Yep. Waste trip money to go on a blind date in a strange country where you do not know the language, have no idea who you will meet or if anyone will be remotely interested in you.
The first pro-dater in the agency will have a ball with you, but at least you will never have written to a scammer, as a guy who reads the letters and follows some basic principle will never understand that the money requests come from a person that is not sincere. 

[phantom]

Well, she wrote me back today.  No pictures, which I usually get with every letter when dealing with a scammer.  She answered all my questions, told me little of her past relations, which were not many men and said maybe it was her, instead of blaming the men.  That was refreshing.  Same flawless English and divided paragraphs.  Even offered as we got to know each other better, to tell me about her ex-relations, if I cared to know.  Then asked me a few questions and added some more about herself.  So, I'll proceed with caution and get to know her and then see about calling her.  Then, she asked about my childhood.  I'm rethinking this, jumping the gun on calling her a scammer.  Usually the letters from cammers are short and choppy.  No questions answered.  So, we shall see.

[Ronnie]

While not many will admit to it, most guys spend a ton of money before they even take their first trip.  I spent money on phone calls to Krasnoyarsk with interpreter, flowers, money for internet, money to Russian investigator who told me she was a scammer because her phone number was not in her name, etc., etc.  In the end, I could have just flown there and met her and maybe others if it didn't pan out  -which is the usual result of writing, then meeting.

I'm not sure why Shadow thinks a reputable agency is going to first hook you up with a pro dater.  Maybe he had a bad experience.  I found them - the good agencies - to be very good and steering me away from those where I might have otherwise been tempted.  Believe it or not, many agencies really want to make a good match.