Black guy heading to Ukraine

[Bob Smith]

Hi,


  Yes hope springs and springs until maybe the educational curve is met to some degree yes?

  If I could change a world I would start in my own backyard and probably not get too much done. What I got done would be for the good of a few metres or so but at least I tried right? If you could change the world maybe you should start in a place like south side Chicago or Detroit and not worry about the people of Ukraine or Russia who at least decide under which politics and feelings they choose. Their feelings are the one's they have and trust and love and thats just fine and normal for me.

Makkin

Makkin

\

I don't want to change the world.  I've never been to Chicago or Detroit.  Actually I've been through O'Hare on my out of the country a couple of times.  I've spent a large chuck of my adult life living abroad and I know a couple of European cities better than most cities in America.  Is there something you think we can do to help whatever situation there is in Chicago and Detroit?

[AnastassiaAsh]

Very astute observation! Yes, that is the guy from the Matrix which replaced the previous photo which was of me. It's one of my favorite movies. Do you miss my old photo?

I am sorry, but I can't really remember your other photo of you, yes, it would be nice to actually see the face of a black/white person we are talking about. 

I hope your marriage succeeds too and is as long as my folks whom just celebrated their 47th anniversary.

Yes, I hope so too. 

First of all I want to state quite clearly for the record I am NOT attacking the legitimacy of a your marriage.

I think you did just that and not once, saying that it would be honest if I say "I was imported for the soul reason of marriage", MOB...

Really, the time I specifically mentioned your relationship was to say that although I would consider it unusual by American standards based upon the anecdotal evidence I acquired it seemed to be a happy marriage. 

What is that supposed to mean? What evidence? It doesn't seem to be a happy marriage, it is a happy marriage.

Bob, you are saying that you didn't attack my marriage or was not talking about me personally while several of your posts addressed me personally, talking about my marriage in particular...  Also, don't please try to make a fool out of me or us, we know better than you do that there are many more people who do not trust this kind of way of finding your spouse. But very rarely do these people come to our board and start proclaiming we are whole bunch of weirdos. They are quietly living their lives and don't interfere. And you, Bob, it seems are lost, because you want to find a RW but at the same time start your messages here with mistrust and insults towards a RW on this board and others. You do not know what you want, it seems like you want to "eat strawberries living on the North Pole", or it is very painful for you to realize that you have to actually go South and get those strawberries. 

[Bob Smith]

Bob,
Your lack of first hand experience is no minor "ticky tack" point. The fact that you had a couple of brushes with fsuw in the states does not qualify you as an expert on ANYTHING really.  Anastassia gave her point of view from the eyes of a RW (and she is well qualified to do so).  I also have to agree with Scott that you should be asking questions and not giving advice with your lack of knowledge and experience on the subject.

I am happy to see you posting here and hope you find whatever it is you seek here at RWD but you might want to tone the arrogance back just a bit.
KenC

I don't have to stand in Red Square to know that WM RW relationships that start via an internet search are not considered mainstream in America.  All I have to do is pick up the phone and call 10 people I know, broach the topic, and gauge the response.  That I am an expert on.  I did it, and I'm reporting the results.  It doesn't mean I agree with the opinions expressed and it certainly doesn't mean I wouldn't contemplate such a union.  And what these ten people said does not constituent a personal attack by me on anyone's marriage including possibly my own future marriage.

The whole point of even bringing up the general acceptability of this erroneously labeled "mail order bride" thing was to illustrate to AnastassiaAsh that she did something most people in MY country would say is unconventional and from all outward appearances it worked for her and her husband.  I'm not saying that "mail order brides" would experience anywhere near the same amount of resistance here in America as a black man would experience in Russia.  I was just trying to prod her to see a bit of the irony in the situation and give us all something more than a couple line sentence saying, "any such relationship is doomed... why don't you find a black girl in America to settle down with."

You're right.  I am not an expert on dating Russian women.  I don't know what all the right answers are.  But with what little knowledge I do have I know there is one answer I was a little skeptical about.

Most of what I've said will probably be ignored by most middle of the road reasonable people.  I expressed myself in an over the top fashion a few times.  People get turned off by that.  But I am happy overall with this discourse because a couple of cooler heads did make a few insightful statements that added balance to the conversation.  And that will hopefully spur more robust conversation on this topic in the future.

[TW1970]

I am sorry, but I can't really remember your other photo of you, yes, it would be nice to actually see the face of a black/white person we are talking about. 

That's too bad; I had my pic up here for awhile. I'd love to see everyone's photo on here who is responding to this thread too but alas, that's prbably not going to happen.

[TW1970]

I'm not saying that "mail order brides" would experience anywhere near the same amount of resistance here in America as a black man would experience in Russia.  I was just trying to prod her to see a bit of the irony in the situation and give us all something more than a couple line sentence saying, "any such relationship is doomed... why don't you find a black girl in America to settle down with."

Her statement about me finding a Black girl is like me saying she should of stayed in Russia and married a Russian man. (If that was a joke AnastassiaAsh sorry I missed it)

Anyway, she may have experience assisting hundreds of clients with meeting FSU women but I'm still curious how many of these were "Black/interracial" men? 

[KenC]

I don't have to stand in Red Square to know that WM RW relationships that start via an internet search are not considered mainstream in America. 

Ahh, but that was not the question asked here.  TW1970 requested information on how RW felt about black men when he wrote:

never been to Ukraine before and I do not know the local population’s attitudes towards Mixed race/Black people. So any insight/advice folks can provide here would be greatly appreciated!

  Sorry, but to know and understand the mind set of a woman in Ukraine, you might actually have to go there.  While your stories regarding fsuw already in America might be interesting, it is hardly relevant to what TW1970 will find in Ukraine.

You're right.  I am not an expert on dating Russian women.  I don't know what all the right answers are.  But with what little knowledge I do have I know there is one answer I was a little skeptical about.

Most of what I've said will probably be ignored by most middle of the road reasonable people.  I expressed myself in an over the top fashion a few times.  People get turned off by that.  But I am happy overall with this discourse because a couple of cooler heads did make a few insightful statements that added balance to the conversation.  And that will hopefully spur more robust conversation on this topic in the future.

"Robust conversations" are welcomed here, it is just that they are much more respected when the participants actually kow what it is they are conversing about.
KenC

[KenC]

Her statement about me finding a Black girl is like me saying she should of stayed in Russia and married a Russian man. (If that was a joke AnastassiaAsh sorry I missed it)

Anyway, she may have experience assisting hundreds of clients with meeting FSU women but I'm still curious how many of these were "Black/interracial" men? 

TW1970,
I can understand you being offended by Anastassia's words but you must forgive her because she is a RW.  Most Russians are very direct and usually do not sugar coat their words.  But I also have a clue for you.  If you find her words offensive, do yourself a huge favor and abandon your quest for a RW now.  Most of the fsu is very prejudiced against black people and they are not PC in their comments.  Are there exceptions?  Sure there are, but why swim up stream?  It seems to me it is only common sense not to look for love where you are not accepted by the general population.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

Actually another thought came to my mind, what if you try to find a black or half black half white woman in Russia or Ukraine? Are you looking for a Russian character and family values or are you specifically looking only for a white girl there?  Your comparison isn't valid. I just said that it probably would be best to stay within your race. I did, I married a white Christian man. I didn't marry a Chinese or a Mexican American man.
And it is me on my avatar, I am not hiding, others do.  And very few interracial men turn to me. That's true. That just means that there are very few interracial men in this comparing to just white. That's all.

[Bob Smith]

What is that supposed to mean? What evidence? It doesn't seem to be a happy marriage, it is a happy marriage.

Sorry I do that a lot.  Look at my past posts.  Its nothing personal.  When I describe other people's relationships I use the word "seem" a lot because I'm not in their specific relationship.  I don't feel comfortable making an absolute definitive statement regarding their specific internal dynamic.  If I'm really concentrating I usually use the word "seem" or some other qualifying remark.  Of course you are going to say you ARE happy.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I'm not doubting the veracity of that statement.  Its just when I post about your relationship I'm posting about it as an outsider reallying on what you have said.   Its seems to be working... that's all I can say about any relationship I hear about solely on the internet.  You have my highest internet seal of approval.  Really for anyone with a sense of discretion that's all they can give... IMHO.

Maybe that's why we have disagreed.  When you said, "any kind of relationship like that is doomed."  I thought it was too absolute and definitive.

When I used "seemed" to describe a relationship you thought it was too wishy-washy.

Maybe its a cultural thing, or maybe I'm just weird.

Check out the second paragraph where I was describing Interracial relationships with Eastern European women.  You'll notice when I was offering up evidence to support my case I said "everyone SEEMED happy."

This is a very touchy and controversial topic.  Frankly I wouldn't have said a lot of the things I've said in the way I've said them had I not bought into the whole Russian woman are not PC and like the blunt truth.  I've since revised my thinking on that topic.

[TW1970]

TW1970,
I can understand you being offended by Anastassia's words but you must forgive her because she is a RW.  Most Russians are very direct and usually do not sugar coat their words.  But I also have a clue for you.  If you find her words offensive, do yourself a huge favor and abandon your quest for a RW now.  Most of the fsu is very prejudiced against black people and they are not PC in their comments.  Are there exceptions?  Sure there are, but why swim up stream?  It seems to me it is only common sense not to look for love where you are not accepted by the general population.
KenC

Thanks for the input Ken. True, many Russians and Ukrainians I've communicated with have been very direct. That is a good thing. Being a racist is not. There are plenty of good people in every country and so far I've connected with a few decent ladies. When I get there, we will see how things go. Just taking it one day at a time..

[KenC]

Thanks for the input Ken. True, many Russians and Ukrainians I've communicated with have been very direct. That is a good thing. Being a racist is not. There are plenty of good people in every country and so far I've connected with a few decent ladies. When I get there, we will see how things go. Just taking it one day at a time..

TW1970,
I sincerely wish you all the best in your search.  I may have missed it, but what are your motivations for seeking a RW?  I mean, "why a RW?"
KenC

[UTRO]

I was told that a black man showed up in Vladivostok last summer to work. After his working day he frequented the clubs. Apparently he was Very Popular with the Ladies. He was an amazing dancer and.... er... you know the other Stereotype. Or is it?  
True story..... but I don't believe That is the relationship you seek.
Don't fool yourself into believing that the FSU mentality is contemporary in it's view on visible minorities. Even with it's own. It's more like mid 1960s America evolving into the 1970s. Lots of Archie Bunker types. That being said, if you have thick skin who cares? Enjoy!

[UTRO]

Interesting.................

http://current.com/items/76373502_racism_in_russia

[TW1970]

Actually another thought came to my mind, what if you try to find a black or half black half white woman in Russia or Ukraine? Are you looking for a Russian character and family values or are you specifically looking only for a white girl there? 

That is a good suggestion. Unfortunately, so far I have not met anyone who meets that criteria although I am sure there must be a few in Kiev. Relationships are a challenge no matter which country you are in, but my family and experiences have shown me that two people of different races/culture can succeed together.

Your comparison isn't valid. I just said that it probably would be best to stay within your race. I did, I married a white Christian man. I didn't marry a Chinese or a Mexican American man.

But with all the "differences" between Russian and American men, you could have chosen to marry a Russian man.

And it is me on my avatar, I am not hiding, others do.  And very few interracial men turn to me. That's true. That just means that there are very few interracial men in this comparing to just white. That's all.

As I said earlier, my photo was posted on here and folks did see it; it is a pity you missed it and were not paying attention. So if I understand correctly now, very few interracial men out of the hundreds of your clients have asked you for assistance. Interesting... 

[UTRO]

I have seen Racist attitudes first hand in Russia. Moscow Sheremetyevo-2 has become a very popular Transit Airport for people flying to and from the Mideast to New York, Toronto and LA. I kid you not, those people are treated very differently than I am by Security, Customs and Aeroflot staff. I have been to restaurants where blacks were virtually ignored by Servers and they got up and left. When I worked in Moscow co-workers who were visible minorities and were with me at restaurants were served last. Managers at my Moscow plant would come to me for questions knowing full well I'd have to turn to ask my minority co-workers beside me for the answer. These situations were absolutely blatant and embarrassing.

[WmGO]

Bob, As someone who has no experience, who doesn't even know that Belarus is part of the FSU, and who is interested in perhaps finding a RW, perhaps you would be better served by this forum if you began by asking questions rather than offering uninformed opinions based on a few articles and internet searches.

In addition I would add that he sounds like a juvenile troll........

[WmGO]

To the original poster, although very odd that a black man
would want to venture into the FSU to pursue white women
(decent honorable educated and solid middle class black men
can have the pick of the litter of black women in America),
the truth has been told that the vast majority of FSU people
have racial attitudes towards black people similar to the attitudes
of white people in the Old South - like 50 years ago and going
back in time.

Hence, your odds are even more diminished than the small odds
that the white WM has in succesfully finding and marrying an
FSUW. Just proceed with this in mind. That's all.

 

[Gtex]

Hey WmGo;
Thanks for bringing up the troll comment, been waiting for that...  Also, remember that some people are just nit wits, difficult to tell sometimes just who fits into which group (opinions to be formed by the participants as appropriate!).
TW; the other thing to realize is that no good Russian (outside the skinheads and Zhirinovsky) will claim (or admit) to being racist.   I presume Ms. Ash does not think of herself that way yet some (you?) might perceive her comments to be.  To her (and most Russians) there are not racist thoughts, just the truth.  Like the others, I wish you luck, but still, gird your loins...

[Blues Fairy]

Whoa, whoa.  Just because someone is challenging the generalizing statements of the "experienced" members, he is a troll?

What's the deal with "experience" anyway?  Some esteemed RWD members here attribute too much importance to it, for self-validation no doubt.  However, even clear statistical tendencies can be overthrown by ONE counter-example; it takes one black swan to disprove the statement "All swans are white" (see Karl Popper on falsifiability).
Here we don't even have statistics; just an assortment of very diverse personal experiences and a lot of inductive reasoning.

I don't see why a successful marriage between black AM and RW should not be possible.  The trick is to find the right RW.  Out of a given number there'll always be a few who will definitely consider a reasonable prospect without any racial bias.  And yes, I speak from experience. 

[Andrew]

TW, this seems to be turning into a touchy one and normally I would shut up but hey, I'm South African, need I say more?
Forget about AM and RW or black and white.
Go! Take the chance, in my opinion if its meant to be it will happen regardless of colour and creed and all that other fickle crap. Love knows no colour so good luck, I hope you find what you're searching for.

(I've lived a lifetime of this creed and colour crap and at the end of it all, it really makes little difference. Don't argue with me about it, I have lived it and seen it first hand)

[catzenmouse]

Just shaking my head at this one.

Someone comes here that has some things to say and opinions that don't fit into the perceptions of the "accepted" thoughts and is now a troll because of that.

Guess I have another good example of why it is said by some that RWD is a clique site.

[tim 360]

TW, You asked a question and you received answers and opinions from some knowledgeable people.  And some not so.  Most are telling you the truth as they know it to be I am sure.

Some may disagree with me but since you find yourself so attracted to RW's you should probably go there and see what happens.  Then you will know.  And maybe you can report back on your progress.  Pretty simple. 

[KenC]

Whoa, whoa.  Just because someone is challenging the generalizing statements of the "experienced" members, he is a troll?

What's the deal with "experience" anyway?  Some esteemed RWD members here attribute too much importance to it, for self-validation no doubt.  However, even clear statistical tendencies can be overthrown by ONE counter-example; it takes one black swan to disprove the statement "All swans are white" (see Karl Popper on falsifiability).
Here we don't even have statistics; just an assortment of very diverse personal experiences and a lot of inductive reasoning.

I don't see why a successful marriage between black AM and RW should not be possible.  The trick is to find the right RW.  Out of a given number there'll always be a few who will definitely consider a reasonable prospect without any racial bias.  And yes, I speak from experience. 

Blues Fairy,
I am not going to address the troll issue as I think that card was played too quickly in this case, but to offer an opinion in a area where the poster has zero experience and zero first hand knowledge is foolish at best IMO.  This is the same old argument as I see it.  Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, just some opinions are much more valid than others.  The big "deal" with experience is that is what we should offer our opinions on, not areas where we have none.

Please note, the OP didn't ask if it were possible or if a Black AM ever married a RW, but what is the general attitude of white RW toward Black AM.
KenC

[Blues Fairy]

The big "deal" with experience is that is what we should offer our opinions on, not areas where we have none.

Please note, the OP didn't ask if it were possible or if a Black AM ever married a RW, but what is the general attitude of white RW toward Black AM.

In this case, the correct answer to the OP's question would be that there's no such thing as a "general attitude of white RW toward Black AM".  The more first-hand experience one has, the more apparent the above becomes.  To infer general conclusions from one's limited personal observations in a subject as complex as interracial relationships does seem a little... ummm... limited.

[KenC]

In this case, the correct answer to the OP's question would be that there's no such thing as a "general attitude of white RW toward Black AM".  The more first-hand experience one has, the more apparent the above becomes.  To infer general conclusions from one's limited personal observations in a subject as complex as interracial relationships does seem a little... ummm... limited.

Blues Fairy,
How much more limited can one's experience be if it is nonexistant?
KenC