Why Do You Do It?

[Ade]

It's silly to keep score on who's turn it is to wash dishes. How many equal rights women volunteer to mow the yard or fix the home or do the hard, heavy and dirty work around the house or automobiles? Why can't people agree to do what they do best and in the end, a man and woman in a relationship will compliment each other with their skills?

It has absolutely nothing to do with "keeping score on the dishes" or, strangely enough, who mows the lawn but it has a lot to do with reinforcing negative stereotypes. Take a trip to Norway one day, it has one of the most gender equal societies in the world and yet it's rare to meet the "femnazi" type that seems to be people's nightmare here. Femininity and feminism aren't mutually exclusive terms.

I guess I’m applying modern secular European attitudes to the US which may be like putting a square peg into a round hole. Still, I have a feeling that at least some guys who demand a “traditional relationship” (as described in these forums) do so because of inherent insecurity issues.

[Ade]

Jaded,
reading all your posts made me curious about what you think of those women,who marry the guys from here? I kinda suppose what you think,though would like to hear your opinion

There seems to be a strong urge on this forum to over generalize; "FSUW are like this in bed", "FSUW are outspoken", "FSUW will have sex with you immediately if they like you" and so on. And yes, although I've made some generalizations myself I've tried to be little more open in what I've said, "it seems", "probably", "some", "many" etc.

I'm not going to fall into the trap of tarring all the women with the same brush for various reasons including that everyone is different and has different motivations and trying to lump them all under one umbrella is just silly. I've also never met any of these women.

What I will say is this; I think it's usually very rare that a very young beautiful woman from any country will choose to be with a man out of love when there are extreme differences in age. It happens I'm sure (hey, just look at KenC) but given the high rate of failure of these relationships (this is information I trust is accurate from William3rd) and the environment that these women are in/want to get out of I think there is a high probability that there are other dominating factors that make them choose these relationships.

Now, what do I think of women that will marry for reasons other than love? I can fully understand why they would do it and I have no issues with that given that they are usually striving to escape an environment that isn’t exactly perfect.

Contrary to what you think, I'm not judging and moralizing with you guys, I'm just trying to have a direct and honest discussion about why you are doing this international dating thing.

(whispering: I think ,you re somewhat snobby )

And why is that exactly? Maybe it's my writing style? Maybe you are projecting something into my posts which isn't there? It happens, and it's not always easy to gauge tone from written text.

[I/O]

S/J: I like your style, as I said early perhaps that is on account of that "Morgan" back in my bloodline. However have a look at the two quotes below.................

There seems to be a theme I'm picking up on in a number of guys

There seems to be a strong urge on this forum to over generalize;

..............seems to me you will fit in quite well.

S/J, albeit if some of your observations may seem correct, you've drawn what IMO is a phuct up conclusion. There might be a few wish seekers out there looking for the so called traditional marriage relationship, but honestly, some crackpot like me tracks half way around the world and marries one little more than half his age who didn't speak his language when he met her and ask yourself the question, does that seem anything like traditional?

I know the above wasn't really your point, but I think you can see where I am coming from and further, if anyone who is contemplating this or is in the throws of making it happen thinks a RW is gunna sit at home and wash his socks, he might as well put his head between his knees and hand the vasso jar to the nearest queer he can find, because either way, he is in for a hot ramming you know where.

Take a trip to Norway one day, it has one of the most gender equal societies in the world and yet it's rare to meet the "femnazi" type that seems to be people's nightmare here.

S/J, Norway is a dot on the map and I am sure it has some fine attributes, but honestly speaking, I doubt most people here are the slightest bit interested in what happens there. It could disappear off the map and much of the world wouldn't even notice.

Femininity and feminism aren't mutually exclusive terms.

Terms, no, but for most practical intents and purposes the "Feminist Movement" has moved away from Femininity and IMO to it's own detriment by and large.

I guess I’m applying modern secular European attitudes

Yawn...........I thought this one might come out somewhere. Socially advanced and more sophisticated and rah rah. I'll skip that one for the sake of better discussion, God that line gets boring after a while.

Still, I have a feeling that at least some guys who demand a “traditional relationship” (as described in these forums) do so because of inherent insecurity issues.

Here, I would agree wholeheartedly, many in this pursuit are exactly as you describe, just don't be too quick to peg all the guys around here, you might find some/many are not so insecure, but just plain pig headed, crusty ol' bastards like me who have no intention of changing because we have reached a certain stage in life where we can afford to choose how we want to be.................which links right back to the thrust of my answer to your original question, why do you do it? Because in the end I wanted to, could afford to, was prepared enough to say phucu to the doomsayers and have the balls to live with the consequences, which for the moment are quite cute.

Now I'll pick my knuckles up of the floor and tell "luvvee" to get me another beer, and something to eat while she is at it.............

I/O

[Ade]

S/J: I like your style, as I said early perhaps that is on account of that "Morgan" back in my bloodline. However have a look at the two quotes below.................
..............seems to me you will fit in quite well.

Ironic I know, but it's difficult not to generalize when making sweeping statements But still, I have tried to qualify my statements a little and I realize that not everyone here is the same.

S/J, albeit if some of your observations may seem correct, you've drawn what IMO is a phuct up conclusion. There might be a few wish seekers out there looking for the so called traditional marriage relationship, but honestly, some crackpot like me tracks half way around the world and marries one little more than half his age who didn't speak his language when he met her and ask yourself the question, does that seem anything like traditional?

Well, the difference between you and a bunch of others that I've read seems to be that you're entirely honest with yourself and others as opposed to those that seem to be deluding themselves.

S/J, Norway is a dot on the map and I am sure it has some fine attributes, but honestly speaking, I doubt most people here are the slightest bit interested in what happens there. It could disappear off the map and much of the world wouldn't even notice.

Terms, no, but for most practical intents and purposes the "Feminist Movement" has moved away from Femininity and IMO to it's own detriment by and large.

Possibly, but there are reasons why Norway and other Scandinavian countries are rated very much higher for quality of life than, for instance the US. But whatever, the reason I've mentioned Norway is that it's more than evident here that it's possible to have gender equality and a very feminine population; really, there is no reason for them to be mutually exclusive as people in the US, or at least US people posting here, seem to think.

Yawn...........I thought this one might come out somewhere. Socially advanced and more sophisticated and rah rah. I'll skip that one for the sake of better discussion, God that line gets boring after a while.

Dude, really, give me some credit please. I didn't even imply that Europe was more socially advanced than the US. But different, yes, without a doubt.

Of course it goes without saying that we’re much more advanced than down under. lol

Here, I would agree wholeheartedly, many in this pursuit are exactly as you describe, just don't be too quick to peg all the guys around here, you might find some/many are not so insecure, but just plain pig headed, crusty ol' bastards like me who have no intention of changing because we have reached a certain stage in life where we can afford to choose how we want to be.................which links right back to the thrust of my answer to your original question, why do you do it? Because in the end I wanted to, could afford to, was prepared enough to say phucu to the doomsayers and have the balls to live with the consequences, which for the moment are quite cute.

And like I said, you are honest with yourself; in your opinion, how many others are here?

[IAmZon]

generalities - even gross generalizations - come with the territory.  Most understand from the outset, the over arching CAVEAT that is always at work in the comments we read and write.

SJ, you presumption that most men here are seeking that which could not (or could not "likely") find in there home town. CORRECT.  You also imply that most men on this quest are "sub-standard" for one reason, or multiple reasons (physical appearance, age, socially skilled, etc...)  CORRECT.

And that leaves quite a few well meaning American men, some of whom are on RWD.

For what it is worth, I have met, in person, some members and their wives from RWD. These visits have shown to me the best of possibilities.  So, be jaded.  It is healthy. But there can be an ultimate truth at work here; just as there can be a farce.

I will contribute a thought I have said before here on RWD - most American Men DESERVE American Women.

That which is often noted as being faults of AW are systemic to a larger and true indictment on American Society.  Men who are rough and tumble and / or a little "off" are best for this assignment. 

[MaxxumUSA]

I'm a bit confused.  In a simple sentence or two...

What is your purpose for posting on this forum?

[Gator]

Seriously Jaded,

You are new to the RW journey and your initial posts in another thread suggested that your head was on straight.  Then you started this thread.  It raised my eyebrows, yet I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed your objective was to study the responses for the the purpose of personally deliberating and resolving your own reasons. 

If that is the case, you have a strange way of doing it.

The pragmatic Maxxum said the same in asking "What is your purpose for posting on this forum?"

Please point out where I said, "the majority". Oh, that's right, I didn't did I?

OK, your opening post to start this thread:

Of course I have a few ideas that probably fit some (maybe the majority?) of the guys here that do this

You then list three questions suggesting we are socially inept, can not find an attractive woman in our own country, and lust for youth.

I can only infer that you were thinking something close to a majority, and your weak qualifiers since then have not changed my mind.

Still, I have a feeling that at least some guys who demand a “traditional relationship” (as described in these forums) do so because of inherent insecurity issues.

Do you not consider that connecting “traditional” with “insecurity” as a tremendous leap?  Maybe you automatically and erroneously equate the term "traditional relationship"  to a hierarchical one. Such would never happen with any of the many RW I got to know - they do not have a compliant nature.

What I will say is this; I think it's usually very rare that a very young beautiful woman from any country will choose to be with a man out of love when there are extreme differences in age.

Your thread began with three loaded, condescending characterizations including this contentious issue.  The archives are replete with endless discussion of age disparity, so there is no need to revisit this issue involving personal decisions.

Contrary to what you think, I'm not judging and moralizing with you guys, I'm just trying to have a direct and honest discussion about why you are doing this international dating thing.

IMO you are indeed judging men with a broad brush, and by that implicitly moralizing.

(whispering: I think ,you re somewhat snobby)

Maybe you are projecting something into my posts which isn't there? It happens, and it's not always easy to gauge tone from written text.

A RW speaks and you do not like it.   Although tone is easily misjudged, I can comprehend content.  You impress me as arrogant, moreso than an Eton friend from years ago.

I have tried to qualify my statements a little and I realize that not everyone here is the same.

Would it not have been more accurate to say that we are all different.  I infer from your expression "not everyone" that you think few of us are indeed different.  Again, nothing to make me think that you do not imply majority.

Well, the difference between you and a bunch of others that I've read seems to be that you're entirely honest with yourself and others as opposed to those that seem to be deluding themselves.

The term "bunch" is defined as "a considerable number" unless you are talking about grapes or a gathering. [I have to be careful with quoting you or God forbid I would be chastised again.]  Who are these men comprising this “bunch”?  I did not see them among respondents to your thread.  So I assume you read many other threads, and if you are talking about Chernobyl, JJ, Tim7 and a few others I will agree with you.  Did not the collective RWD board tell such men that they are deluding themselves? 

...it's possible to have gender equality and a very feminine population;

I agree.

there is no reason for them [gender equality and very feminine population] to be mutually exclusive as people in the US, or at least US people posting here, seem to think.

I am from the US, so how could it be that I just agreed with you and do not think they are mutually exclusive?

And like I said, you are honest with yourself; in your opinion, how many others are here?

You would not have made the statement unless your opinion is that a significant number of us are not honest with ourselves.
[/quote]

An answer to Maxxum's question would be helpful.

[Misha]

There seems to be a strong urge on this forum to over generalize; "FSUW are like this in bed", "FSUW are outspoken", "FSUW will have sex with you immediately if they like you" and so on. And yes, although I've made some generalizations myself I've tried to be little more open in what I've said, "it seems", "probably", "some", "many" etc.

You are right about the generalizations. I have always remarked that the men who will argue most vehemently that Russian women are truly "traditional" are the men that have never been to the FSU and have yet to actually marry and live with a woman from the FSU.

Also, it is fascinating to read simultaneously the English-language sites such as these and the Russian-language sites dominated by women who are living overseas with foreign husbands. Here, on sites such as RWD, the men often praise the "traditional" Russian woman who wants to stay home and take care of them, and in the Russian-language sites the women often complain about boredom, how they hate being stuck at home and how their husbands don't really understand them.

In one discussion thread I was reading in a Russian-language forum, a woman posting was up in arms because her husband did not want her to immediately go to university and study. She was also complaining that her husband spent all his money on himself and did not give her any spending money. The other women were advising her to get a job and explain to her what she had to do in terms of paperwork. These are hardly the actions of a "traditional" woman happy who wants nothing more than to stay at home and nurture a family. 

[Gator]

Gaubaub,

Excellent points.  You have a special capability to read what RW say about us in their own language.

I do not need to read a Russian language forum to understand your point because a certain RW has been telling me the same in English for 6 years. She raised this issue long before we met.

RW do hear stories of bad marriages in which the Western husband is controlling and greedy - two traits they abhor.  And we get the odd story here as well in which we can infer such from the man's posts.  Yet, these stories here seem to be more the exception than the standard IMO.

[Ade]

I'm a bit confused.  In a simple sentence or two...

What is your purpose for posting on this forum?

As I said in my intro post, I'm interested in the finer points of FSUW culture. Given the number of married guys and FSUW participating here I thought it would be a good bet that some usual information would be available.

That's not to say that I'm not also interested in spirited debate on other topics and who knows, maybe I can contribute a little to the common pool of knowledge too.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation posted on FSUW though. I mean really, "FSUW just lay there after the 3rd time you sleep with them?" lol Seriously funny stuff.  

[MaxxumUSA]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation posted on FSUW though. I mean really, "FSUW just lay there after the 3rd time you sleep with them?" lol Seriously funny stuff.  

Not sure who posted that but I'm sure there are many other posts that might say the contrary.  You of course need to take each individual post as part of the bigger picture, process what you consider good and bad, and overall a grain of salt helps a lot here.

Thanks for your answer.

- Maxxum

[Ade]

You are new to the RW journey

Let me start by saying that I’m not hell bent on marrying a FSUW like most people seem to be here. I happen to have met a Russian woman that I like a lot. If it leads that way then so be it, but I wouldn't be so pretentious as to call it a journey.

Gator, wrt the "majority" issue; you can choose to obfuscate like this if you wish but the post you replied to said, "bunch" which means “a number of people” not “the majority” which was in another post in another context; I also see you chose another definition for bunch than mine that suited your argument better.

Were you ever a politician by any chance?

You then list three questions suggesting we are socially inept, can not find an attractive woman in our own country, and lust for youth.

You say “we” as if I point to all of you, unless you’re using it in the royal sense. Go read it again, I said some and asked the question, “the majority?” See that question mark there after the majority? It means it’s a question not a statement.

I can only infer that you were thinking something close to a majority, and your weak qualifiers since then have not changed my mind.

Admittedly I was thinking some, with a good possibly that it was most but after the responses to this thread I now think “some”. 

Do you not consider that connecting “traditional” with “insecurity” as a tremendous leap?  Maybe you automatically and erroneously equate the term "traditional relationship"  to a hierarchical one. Such would never happen with any of the many RW I got to know - they do not have a compliant nature.

Well, “traditional” as far as I understand the term and as far as I can tell by some of the descriptions here, implies that the man is the dominant one in the relationship, working and earning the money while the woman is submissive, stays at home and raises the family.
Whether that is the reality of an AM/RW marriage is another thing but some here seem to want it that way and are under the impression that a RW will be the way to get it.

You would not have made the statement unless your opinion is that a significant number of us are not honest with ourselves.

Possibly, but I’m still thinking about it.

[BillyB]

Still, I have a feeling that at least some guys who demand a “traditional relationship” (as described in these forums) do so because of inherent insecurity issues.

Well, “traditional” as far as I understand the term and as far as I can tell by some of the descriptions here, implies that the man is the dominant one in the relationship, working and earning the money while the woman is submissive, stays at home and raises the family.

AJ, you imply you've got people here figured out based on what you've read. Who are the ones demanding "traditional" relationships as you've defined it? Pure BS. I can't even remember the last guy who used the word "traditional" when searching for a RW let alone demand a woman like that. If anything, men who are too soft will easily get ran over by most RW.

I know how those people who say they want "equal" really are. They want the upper hand or if they really want "equal" it's a different "equal" than what I come to know it is.

In my relationship, my fiancee wants a family and wants to work. She doesn't like sitting at home but she has her priorities straight and consider family before work if it can't be balanced. She likes me because I have more life experience than her and she can learn from me instead of having to babysit a man-child. She also doesn't want to marry a woman in a man's body.

I don't want equal. I want a woman to compliment the things/skills I lack and I shall compliment her life too. I've got plenty of determination to succeed at work and skills to fix my own house and cars compared to most guys out there who used their alloted brain power and determination to become equally talented in playing the male AND female role in marriage.

[Gator]

Seriously Jaded,

Reasonable responses.  Thanks.

[IAmZon]

SJ, the term journey as it is often used here already largely applies to you:  you are living in a different culture and dating women from a different culture.  That is a large part of the "journey" for your garden variety AM just lurking here, or in their initial fantasies.

Also, it takes a little time for members of RWD to et a sense of each other.  I did not think your initial tones were offensive (some did).  I have found that the membership of this board is comprised of unusually high quality individuals (educated, experienced, successful, etc..)

PS. Gator is universally well respected.

[Zmejka]

What I will say is this; I think it's usually very rare that a very young beautiful woman from any country will choose to be with a man out of love when there are extreme differences in age. It happens I'm sure (hey, just look at KenC) but given the high rate of failure of these relationships (this is information I trust is accurate from William3rd) and the environment that these women are in/want to get out of I think there is a high probability that there are other dominating factors that make them choose these relationships.

Now, what do I think of women that will marry for reasons other than love? I can fully understand why they would do it and I have no issues with that given that they are usually striving to escape an environment that isn’t exactly perfect.

Reading forums of russian women married to foreigners for 3 years i can say that is really 200% true. I take into account that those happily married may not write often - and so they're out of focus for the most - and still a failure rate due to many reasons - lack of common language, closing eyes on waving red glads still in the process of correspondence and dating, hopes and thoughts "i can live with that or i can change it", age difference that brings different interests and activity etc. - is abnormal high

[catzenmouse]

I take into account that those happily married may not write often

Zmejka hit on something here (bright lady that she is) that is hard to quantify for those who have not the longevity here. I know of several very happily married couples who only pop in from time to time to say "Hi" or comment then disappear for months again.

Most of what you see here on a daily basis (IMO) is a fairly small group of OMB's who generally know how to do this and are here to offer assistance, a very small group of guys who have the ability to catch a clue who ask and listen, and quite a few (sadly enough) of the total idiots (like our recent JJ (or should I just say Tim7 (HI Tim, you're still too transparent for words!)) who could not find their @ss with a map, a GPS sytem, and 3 helpers, and finally of those who really want to get it right but just are so socially inept and/or incompetent in personal relationships that they fight tooth and nail against the good advice given here because it does not fit into their particular version of reality/fantasy.

Occasionally one of that last category turns it around and get their $hit together. It is for those folks that we (and I am speaking out of turn for the OMB's at large) get the greatest satisfaction out of helping.

All this, of course, is only my opinion,
 Ken

[Serebro]

I take into account that those happily married may not write often - and so they're out of focus for the most -

oh, when I am happy  and my love is close to me I don't have time for the internet!!!!

[Gator]

oh, when I am happy  and my love is close to me I don't have time for the internet!!!!

Aha!  Now we know how to shut you up!  If you already have a love, we will pass the hat among ourselves and collect money to pay for him to fly quickly to Russia.

If you are still looking, we need to form a search committee so that we can get some peace around here.   

[BillyB]

oh, when I am happy  and my love is close to me I don't have time for the internet!!!!

But when he's away, you have time to flirt with all the men here making them fall in love with you!

[I/O]

I realize that not everyone here is the same.

That's important if you are to get the best out of this place.

Well, the difference between you and a bunch of others that I've read seems to be that you're entirely honest with yourself and others as opposed to those that seem to be deluding themselves.

It has served me well in becoming about the most disliked person around here. Albeit if the majority of the detractors remain hopeful they may someday achieve what many of us already have. I wouldn't go so far as to say "a bunch" as it tends to imply many/most, and I don't believe that to be correct as applied to RWD, however, I would say that it is correct when applied to the pursuit of RW as a whole. I think I said something like "a pursuit riddled with scumbags and losers". Sadly that is true.

there are reasons why Norway and other Scandinavian countries are rated very much higher for quality of life than, for instance the US. But whatever, the reason I've mentioned Norway is that it's more than evident here that it's possible to have gender equality and a very feminine population; really, there is no reason for them to be mutually exclusive as people in the US, or at least US people posting here, seem to think.

FWIW, avoid the nationalistic references, they are boring and achieve nothing. Read a couple of other threads to see where they go............................to the schithouse pretty quickly.

Dude, really, give me some credit please. I didn't even imply that Europe was more socially advanced than the US. But different, yes, without a doubt.

Ah but you did, albeit by the default projections of too many predecessors here. Just trying to give you clue as to how to fit into this community which will be of immense benefit to you if you proceed further in this ridiculous pursuit.

Of course it goes without saying that we’re much more advanced than down under. lol

But you did say it, so that in and of itself suggests quite the opposite.........as most of the more enlightened of the human species already know anyway.

And like I said, you are honest with yourself;

Maybe brutally so.

in your opinion, how many others are here?

You would need to split that into at least two groups to give some sort of answer. Among the OMB's I would suggest more than half. Among the hopers, I would suggest less than half.

Who are the ones demanding "traditional" relationships as you've defined it? Pure BS. I can't even remember the last guy who used the word "traditional" when searching for a RW let alone demand a woman like that. If anything, men who are too soft will easily get ran over by most RW.

Is it just me, or does the question answer itself in the above?

There seems to be a lot of misinformation posted on FSUW though. I mean really, "FSUW just lay there after the 3rd time you sleep with them?" lol Seriously funny stuff.

Ah........you read that article also.........it first surfaced on my radar a couple of years or more ago. Did you notice the author had more than one go at being married to a Russian Woman? He still remains a relatively clueless git, although he does actually make some accurate points in the article if you can sift through the hatred which is driven by his own social ineptness.

(Knuckles back on the ground mode) Now I must depart this exemplary exchange and sort this bloody woman out, gawwwwd I dunno if she has even washed my clothes today or thought about what she should be cooking for my lunch, much less gotten some beer from the pub. Maybe a good bashing will do the trick. Ah well, she does still put out though, so I guess that's something of a saving grace while it lasts.

BTW, Gator is a pretty cluey guy when it comes to the pursuit of RW and has gained a deal of respect around these parts over time, he just needs to play more golf sometimes.

I/O

[Eduard]

Reading forums of russian women married to foreigners for 3 years i can say that is really 200% true. I take into account that those happily married may not write often - and so they're out of focus for the most - and still a failure rate due to many reasons - lack of common language, closing eyes on waving red glads still in the process of correspondence and dating, hopes and thoughts "i can live with that or i can change it", age difference that brings different interests and activity etc. - is abnormal high

Zmejka, what you said here makes sense, what I don't understand is why the heck would you put my site on Anti-date??? I think that's a nasty thing to do

[Gator]

Zmejka, what you said here makes sense, what I don't understand is why the heck would you put my site on Anti-date??? I think that's a nasty thing to do

Wow Eduard, you are going through the anti-date wringer?!  What upset them?  You do not help clients seeking a sex tour, and you do know and respect the Russian culture.  Sometimes life ain't fair.  You have my sympathy. 

At least you speak Russian and can participate in your own inquiry before you are tar'd and feather'd.

[Ade]

Thanks guys (and gals), cool replies. I've learned a lot about the better side of RWD I think.

My apologies for stepping on toes. In a way my overly antagonistic approach was intentional; I've found that it can help in provoking more open responses. Maybe some have been more offended than I intended though. C’est la vie.

[Turboguy]

Getting back to the traditional woman thingy, I think there are some in the persuit who read the ad's of the agencies where that fantasy is promoted and believe RW are traditional and they like that idea.   I think you won't find those guys on RWD and we all know RW are far from the stay at home raising a family type of women.