A child from Russia is killed in the USA

[wxman]

Mr Roosevelt und Mr Stalin zaw each utter in Yalta during ze big var. Ze say to each utter, ve fight big var together, zen ve vill devide ze vorld up together. One gets ze vest, the utter gets ze east. Mr Churchill say he don't like, and Mr Roosevelt and Mr Stalin say so vhat, ve vill do dat anyway. Zen they have big party.  

[Serebro]

i know about ze paty in yalta
but it vos a litle diferent zan vot u say, u hav to reed mor books

OK, I'm tryin to understand the Russian government here.  Seems the Russian government doesn't dispute the fact that several million Ukrainians died during the calamity commonly referred to as the Holodomor

why is that, the Russian government doesn't deny the fact of holodomor, it just can't understand in what way Ukrainian famine was so different from famine in any other parts of the USSR( as the whole USSR had it)that it should be mentioned in any particular way, for example I live in Povolzhye, any person in Russia knows the phrase "голодающий Поволжья", it means "the starving person of Povolzh'ye", during the WW2 the western part of Russia had violent battles and the eastern part had to work a lot to provide the western part with food and arms, as a result they sent all the food they made to the west and many people producind food died of starvation, my grandmother's sister died, too, she was 12.

My grandmother also told a story about a woman who had 4 children, there was the war and that woman and her children starved, she stole  some food and one man saw that, she was sent to prison for that and 2 of her children died of starvation.

Leningrad(modern St Petersburg) had a blocade-

During World War II, Leningrad was surrounded and besieged by the German Wehrmacht from September 8, 1941 to January 27, 1944. By Hitler's order the Wehrmacht  systematically isolated the city from any supplies, causing death of more than 1 million civilians in 3 years; 1942 alone saw 650,000 people die.[14]

As a result of the Nazi siege, about 1.2 million of 3 million Leningrad civilians lost their lives

The whole USSR suffered, the eastern USSR suffered, the western USSR suffered, all the republics had famine and suffered and only modern Ukraine is so damn sensitive that it still looks for someone to blame for its famine, so it found Russia to be responsible for it.
Yes, we are  so sorry about all people who die and are killed everywhere, but the number doesn't make sense, even if one child was killed in the USA it still makes it worth a separate thread.

If millions of people have been killed during the history it doesn't mean that we shouldn't write about the  child that was tortured and killed.

[krimster]

Oh zey zink zey are so smart wit der Nobel Prizes

see here
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h2007.html

and Russian Nobel winners are so few, se ehere
http://www.kommersant.com/t439303/r_4/n_484/We_Have_So_Few/

Oh ze Americans are zo stupide!

Da!  Look at their stupide inventions here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_inventions

Zey stole the Nobel prizes and inventions all from Russians, da every one I see on Russian TV.
Even TV they steal from Russia

[wxman]

If millions of people have been killed during the history it doesn't mean that we shouldn't write about the  child that was tortured and killed.

Your words are very true. One should never ignore such things. Perhaps if more people would write about such tragedies, it may happen less. We need to open more eyes in this world to such things.

As far as the tragedies that happened in WWII, I can only say, nothing good ever comes from war. Yet people never seem to learn.

[Serebro]

krimster, you are a smart person to understand that the USSR was an enemy of the west and it was imposible for its scientists to go to the west to get the Nobel prize, only people who were sent away from the USSR got it, like Andrey Sakharov, so your statistics doesn't prove anything:)

[wxman]

krimster, you are a smart person to understand that the USSR was an enemy of the west and it was imposible for its scientists to go to the west to get the Nobel prize, only people who were sent away from the USSR got it, like Andrey Sakharov, so your statistics doesn't prove anything:)

Sakharov was never sent away from the USSR unless you meant when he was sent into exile to the city of Gorky in 1980. Didn't he die in Russia? He received the award in 1975 but wasn't allowed to leave the USSR to receive it. His wife read his speech at the ceremony.

[Ranetka]

First a few numbers. (I wonder whree SOME people here are getting their figures from?)

According to Russian State Statistics Committee to the beginning of 2006 there were 725000 children left without parents. Amongst them 190 000 are under state guardianship, the rest of 545000 are living in families: 375 000 – under (private) guardianship, 11 000 – under foster or patronage care, 159000 were adopted.

this is the sourse

http://www.usynovite.ru/experience/efficiency/

Sorry for mistakes - translation is mine.

I do not think these figures are so aufull as some people here are saying.

The reason Russians prefer guardianship to adoption is a parentless child (meaning - not adopted) will receive a free property from state when s/he is 18 years old. Makes sence not to adopt, legal guardianship is equal to adoption in all respects otherwise. (I am not mentioning actually "taking the child back" also it might be a reason for some too, still it is better for someone to return the child then try get rid of him otherwise....)

We may be not a rich country, but we try to look after our kids.

[krimster]

"...but we try to look after our kids"

Good job
http://www.gerdludwig.com/html/stories_soviet_06.html

Looks like the disarmament plan is working.

[Ranetka]

"...but we try to look after our kids"

Good job
http://www.gerdludwig.com/html/stories_soviet_06.html

Looks like the disarmament plan is working.

I am glad you do not have children with disablilities in America. 

[wxman]

"...but we try to look after our kids"

Good job
http://www.gerdludwig.com/html/stories_soviet_06.html

Looks like the disarmament plan is working.

I don't understand the reasoning behind this post. There are disabled and handicapped children in every country caused by pollutants, drugs,  bad water, vaccinations,  and so on. It is not a problem unique to Russia.  Using handicapped children to make a claim about Russia is stooping pretty low. 

[Jet]

"...but we try to look after our kids"

Good job
http://www.gerdludwig.com/html/stories_soviet_06.html

Looks like the disarmament plan is working.

And your point krimster? how about this: http://www.sprol.com/?p=373 or going back a couple years, this: http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/lovecanal/01.htm

You'd have done far better to argue that defense attorneys said Irma Pavlis (mentioned on the first page of this thread) disciplined the boy but argued that his brain injuries -- and his bizarre behavior -- were caused by fetal alcohol syndrome, a result of his birth mother's excessive drinking during her pregnancy.

But that still leaves *zero* possible justification in the Peggy Sue Hilt case where she beat her adopted daughter Nina to death because she felt like she couldn't "bond". No birth defects, mental imbalances, or diseases were cited in any of the reports of the tragedy or courtroom proceedings.

[Ronnie]

why is that, the Russian government doesn't deny the fact of holodomor, it just can't understand in what way Ukrainian famine was so different from famine in any other parts of the USSR( as the whole USSR had it)that it should be mentioned in any particular way, for example I live in Povolzhye, any person in Russia knows the phrase "голодающий Поволжья", it means "the starving person of Povolzh'ye", during the WW2 the western part of Russia had violent battles and the eastern part had to work a lot to provide the western part with food and arms, as a result they sent all the food they made to the west and many people producind food died of starvation, my grandmother's sister died, too, she was 12.

My grandmother also told a story about a woman who had 4 children, there was the war and that woman and her children starved, she stole  some food and one man saw that, she was sent to prison for that and 2 of her children died of starvation.

Leningrad(modern St Petersburg) had a blocade-
The whole USSR suffered, the eastern USSR suffered, the western USSR suffered, all the republics had famine and suffered and only modern Ukraine is so damn sensitive that it still looks for someone to blame for its famine, so it found Russia to be responsible for it.

I guess I need to read more books.  Here I always thought Russia was in the same WW2 we were in (1939-45).  Now Serebro informs me that Holodomor famine (1932-33) was only because of the WW2.

I feel like a dum Amurcun

[Misha]

The Moscow Times ran today a good piece by a Russian commentator. The points he makes mirror much of what many posters and I have been saying. I have copied the piece for your interest. The column:

The Politics of Adoption

By Georgy Bovt

Whenever something bad happens to a Russian child who was adopted by parents from the United States, Russian television is bound to show it as the leading story. These media reports, however, rarely dig below the surface to find out what motivated foreigners to adopt these children in the first place and to explain why these adoptions ended so tragically.

In place of objective reporting, the Russian media are quick to pass judgment on the adoptive parents, leading viewers to conclude that Americans adopt Russian children to abuse them -- and, in extreme cases, to kill them. After each incident, lawmakers toughen procedures for foreign adoptions and sometimes call for their outright prohibition.

The recent story of the Emelyantsev family from Utah is a typical example. The mother, Kimberly, is from the United States, and the father, Fyodor, is a Russian citizen. Their 14-month-old adopted Russian boy died on March 7. An autopsy determined that the child had died from a skull fracture that doctors said was the result of blunt-force trauma. Both parents were arrested, and Kimberly Emelyantsev was charged with first-degree murder.

The boy was one of three Russian children the family had adopted in addition to the two children they already had. Two of the adopted children suffered from serious illnesses, and the Emelyantsevs knowingly took them in. The boy who died had suffered from Down syndrome. The medical aspect of the Emelyantsev case is important, because it is nearly impossible for foreigners to adopt healthy Russian orphans. Instead, they adopt mostly handicapped children or those with serious hereditary illnesses.

After the Emelyantsev case was widely publicized, the public received another dose of anti-Americanism. In reality, such incidents in the United States occur in only one of every 15,000 adoption cases. U.S. and Canadian parents adopted around 15,000 Russian children in recent years, and there were 14 to 16 known deaths among all adopted children over the last 10 years. Two years ago, following a similar tragedy involving a Russian child adopted by American parents, U.S. authorities tried to organize a media tour to show how adopted children from Russia were faring in their new country and how the system for monitoring their living conditions was functioning. They invited a few members of the State Duma and the Federation Council, but there were no takers.

Russian laws governing adoptions by foreigners have gotten stricter in recent years. Even accredited adoption agencies are finding it difficult to manage -- primarily because of the pervasive corruption among bureaucrats. Only in the last two years has the number of Russians adopting children -- 7,000 -- exceeded that of foreigners adopting Russian children -- 6,000.

The Education and Science Ministry is now demanding tougher rules for overseas adoptive parents, suggesting that they be obligated to register with the state's orphan database, undergo psychological testing and take a preparatory course for bringing adopted children into the home.

Such measures are worthwhile, but if we are so concerned about the fate of Russian children adopted by foreigners, why do we remain silent about the children adopted by Russians? There are no statistics available on domestic abuse cases of adopted children. We know only that 2,500 Russian children die at their parents' hands every year, according to Interior Ministry statistics. We don't know how many of those children were adopted because the country has no system for monitoring the progress of adopted children. But we do know that 1 million adoptive parents were deprived of their adoption rights because of child abuse. Another 2,500 families changed their minds and sent the children they had adopted back to the orphanages.

Unfortunately, you rarely see these stories on Russian television. Is it really more important for us to show that Americans are worse than Russians?

Georgy Bovt is a political analyst and hosts a radio program on City-FM.

Source: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2008/03/27/007.html

[BC]

Russian laws governing adoptions by foreigners have gotten stricter in recent years. Even accredited adoption agencies are finding it difficult to manage -- primarily because of the pervasive corruption among bureaucrats. Only in the last two years has the number of Russians adopting children -- 7,000 -- exceeded that of foreigners adopting Russian children -- 6,000.

Source: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2008/03/27/007.html

Would be nice to see this trend continue.

I can imagine this could support the thesis that better economics allow more willing parents to adopt, or that maybe increased government support (financial) is being afforded.

on a per capita basis 'only' 1000 more is quite significant IMHO.

Just a curious question:  How were adoptions handled in USSR days?  Any data available from that relatively stable era?  Pre/post USSR would be quite different I assume, possibly leading to a recovery noted above.


 

[Ronnie]

The big question then is why on earth would anyone choose to use adoptions of children, especially handicapped children, by families who are so overwhelmingly loving and nurturing, as a political football?

The logic escapes me.  I can only speculate that it has something to do that old soviet mentality that every act of kindness must be selfishly and deviously motivated.

[Misha]

And, the article states that more than 1/3 of parents send their adopted children back. Keep in mind that Russian citizens in Russia can adopt the healthiest children! I pity the children. Imagine the poor child who is adopted and then a few weeks or months later is sent back.

[BC]

And, the article states that more than 1/3 of parents send their adopted children back. Keep in mind that Russian citizens in Russia can adopt the healthiest children! I pity the children. Imagine the poor child who is adopted and then a few weeks or months later is sent back.

Gebaub,

Do you fail to see even a 'hint' of positive in all this?  I do not know what types of pre/post adoption care is given by the authorities in FSU.  On the surface it seems that such care and even the process of approving parents for adoption is much is more extensive in the west.  I could hypothesize that these differences could well clarify this 1/3 return figure mentioned in the article.

Without an external support structure for parents, adoption and even those marrying FSU women with children can quickly run into major difficulties.

[Misha]

Gebaub,

Do you fail to see even a 'hint' of positive in all this?  I do not know what types of pre/post adoption care is given by the authorities in FSU.  On the surface it seems that such care and even the process of approving parents for adoption is much is more extensive in the west.  I could hypothesize that these differences could well clarify this 1/3 return figure mentioned in the article.

Without an external support structure for parents, adoption and even those marrying FSU women with children can quickly run into major difficulties.

Why should I look for the positive? Okay, here is a positive thought: the children in the orphanages are much better off than the abandoned children and runaways sleeping in the basements across Russia. The children returned at least had a chance at a normal life, unlike the dirty and malnourished children that I used to see wandering around the streets of Russia at night. Children that appeared to be no older than 8 or 9. There, a hint of positive.

[KenC]

http://www.sonyclassics.com/theitalian/

"The Italian" is a very good Russian movie (with English sub titles) based on the plight of an orphan boy up for adoption to an Italian couple.  A real tear jerker.  Interestingly enough, it was available on our movies on demand on HBO under a new foreign film category.
KenC

[Bluebell]

Oh zey zink zey are so smart wit der Nobel Prizes

see here
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h2007.html

and Russian Nobel winners are so few, se ehere
http://www.kommersant.com/t439303/r_4/n_484/We_Have_So_Few/

Oh ze Americans are zo stupide!

Da!  Look at their stupide inventions here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_inventions

Zey stole the Nobel prizes and inventions all from Russians, da every one I see on Russian TV.
Even TV they steal from Russia

 

Boys and girls, don't fight too much over who's smarter because it is a well-known fact that Hungarians  are 

http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/famous.htm

There are 18 Nobel prize winners of Hungarian origin, and this for a nation just of 15 million from all over the world!

BTW, interesting thread.

[Serebro]

gabaub, I am glad that you posted that article here, it proves that Russians newspapers/media give different points of view. In the other thread there was a big discussion about propaganda, like Russians only have one point of view:what their government says them.Now we can see that it isn't  so.


At the same time the article has the same idea-look at Russia and compare the digits....

The digits don't solve the problem.

and the problem still exists-there is a TENDENCY to kill adopted children from Russia.


Gabaub:

And, the article states that more than 1/3 of parents send their adopted children back.  I pity the children. Imagine the poor child who is adopted and then a few weeks or months later is sent back.

there can be many reasons for giving the child back-he doesn't like his parents, parents have serious difficulties with him, etc.When people get married and have children not all of them stay together to overcome difficulties, they just get divorced, because they had problems with communication, why can't they do the same with the child if they all feel like it's a very huge problem they can't solve.

At the same time most people who adopt Russian children have to adopt "healthier" children, but not babies like most Americans do, these children have their points of view and they have habits/friends so it's harder to find a common language with a 8 yo child than with a 1 yo child.

It looks like some Americans solve this problem in a  more radical way: they just kill the "naughty" child as it's less expensive than sending the child back or having an appointment with a phychologyst.

[Misha]

gabaub, I am glad that you posted that article here, it proves that Russians newspapers/media give different points of view. In the other thread there was a big discussion about propaganda, like Russians only have one point of view:what their government says them.Now we can see that it isn't  so.

Well, if you read the article carefully, the author is highlighting that the Russian media is not objective and is quickly demonizing foreigners without paying any attention to the fate of children in Russia. The passages that do this in the text:

"In place of objective reporting, the Russian media are quick to pass judgment on the adoptive parents, leading viewers to conclude that Americans adopt Russian children to abuse them -- and, in extreme cases, to kill them." - This means that the reporting in Russian media is subjective and that the Russian media jumps on one case to make the unwarranted conclusion that Americans adopt Russian children to abuse and kill them.

"After the Emelyantsev case was widely publicized, the public received another dose of anti-Americanism. In reality, such incidents in the United States occur in only one of every 15,000 adoption cases." Again, the author is talking about the politics of adoption. He is a Russian who is pointing out that the Russian media jump on the rare cases of children being killed by adoptive parents in the United States as it gives them an opportunity to bash the United States.

"Such measures are worthwhile, but if we are so concerned about the fate of Russian children adopted by foreigners, why do we remain silent about the children adopted by Russians?" Finally, the author is pointing out the hypocrisy of Russian media that become morally indignant about the death of one Russian child in the United States and ignore the suffering of children in Russia. He concludes by saying that: "Unfortunately, you rarely see these stories  [problems faced by adopted children and children waiting for adoption in Russia] on Russian television. Is it really more important for us to show that Americans are worse than Russians?"

P.S. One final comment. This article was published in English in a newspaper for the most part read by foreigners in Moscow. It can be much more critical of Russia and its politics. I doubt that this article would have been published in a mainstream Russian-language newspaper or the ideas expressed on Russian-language television.

[KenC]

and the problem still exists-there is a TENDENCY to kill adopted children from Russia.

14 deaths out of 50,000+ adoptions is hardly a tendency.
KenC

[Faux Pas]

a TENDENCY to kill adopted children from Russia.

It looks like some Americans solve this problem in a  more radical way: they just kill the "naughty" child as it's less expensive than sending the child back or having an appointment with a phychologyst.

Serebro,

You really have gone over the top on this one. Your hatred for Americans and all things American is evident. Nobody on this board has advocated that the parents of the murdered child is innocent or right. In fact, all I have read is that all wish the adoptive parents should receive everything such a crime derserves.

But for you to insinuate that such an act of adopting then murdering a Russian child is a fad or trendy "American" thing to do is pretty damn sick. Children are murdered everyday all across the world in every nation by their parents as well as others. Nobody as made an excuse for that. I believe everyone here abhhors this, including you. In the past I have enjoyed reading many of your posts. It really is a shame you have such a pessimistic view on life and a need to spew this vitrol and vile. It is blatantly obvious to me you couldn't careless and weep for the child. You had rather take the opportunity to bash America. Thats pretty sad.

[wxman]

Why does Russia still allow Americans to adopt Russian children, if they are going to be murdered? The Russian government is an accessory to murder since they know it is occurring and still allowing Americans to adopt. Since the Russian govenment hasn't stopped adoption, they must want these children exterminated, but done so outside of their borders. Seems like they are acting like Pilate, and washing their hands of the crime.

Pretty absurd isn't it, but one could easily argue that point.