Run for your lives....The propaganda war

[Shadow]

I have traveled extensively in Russia and the majority of the people were TOTALLY ignorant of ANYTHING outside of Russia, what little information they had was based on the Government's propaganda machine which the people accept without question.

Soviet Facts (designed to help educate the masses of uninformed Americans)

Did you know that until 1969 all children born on a Soviet collective farm were forced by law to work there as adults unless they were specifically given permission to leave?

Of course people that accept government propaganda (of any government) without question are wrong. After all not any government will tell the truth on all matters.

Soviet Questions to Facts

Do you know in how many cases such permission was refused ?

[krimster]

What does it matter?
Some people in the Soviet Union were no different from serfs, legally tied to the land, needed legal permission to leave EXACTLY like serfs.  Just because USSR Government Decree #667 was put into effect in 1974 doesn't mean that the culture INSTANTLY reacted to their new found freedom, old thinking persisted.  So children on collectives were NOT as well educated as in cities, why bother educating those who will end up being manual laborers, this persists TODAY.
Why does everyone in Russia TODAY still have a propiska?  Don't people understand it's original purpose?

[Shadow]

What does it matter?
Some people in the Soviet Union were no different from serfs, legally tied to the land, needed legal permission to leave EXACTLY like serfs.  Just because USSR Government Decree #667 was put into effect in 1974 doesn't mean that the culture INSTANTLY reacted to their new found freedom, old thinking persisted.  So children on collectives were NOT as well educated as in cities, why bother educating those who will end up being manual laborers, this persists TODAY.
Why does everyone in Russia TODAY still have a propiska?  Don't people understand it's original purpose?

As the state provided jobs, it would be no more than natural that there was a registration system on where people were supposed to do their jobs. What it matters is that you make it seem like a compulsory system, without having proof that requests to get this permission were categorically denied. That is probably due to propaganda.

Why do people in the USA have an ID card ?

[catzenmouse]

Perhaps that explains why you thought Kishinev was in Belarus? Now if you had only stayed in .....................nah, prolly wouldn't have made any difference.

I/O

Are you SURE you're not my ex-wife I/O? Reminding me of mistakes I made months (even years) ago....

 

[krimster]

"As the state provided jobs, it would be no more than natural that there was a registration system on where people were supposed to do their jobs"

Who made this determination of where "people were supposed to do their jobs".  In the West you choose the job you want to do, you apply for it and you may or may not be granted the position.  The government doesn't go and TELL YOU WHAT JOB AND WHAT PROFESSION YOU WILL BE, and certainly doesn't do so based on the profession of your parents (they were farmers on the collective, so you will be a farmer on the collective).  You are in bondage to this collective farm, until you ask for and RECEIVE permission to perform an alternative job.  Maybe what you want to do doesn't agree with government perceptions, (Oh, I want to sit down and write some protest songs or poetry or paint), Nyet! Permission denied!  Or maybe the director of the collective is short handed or doesn't like you or your family, or some other thing, so Nyet!  Who knows, regardless, until that permission is received you're legally bound to that farm and it's ILLEGAL for you to even TRY to move to a new place and get a new job.  It doesn't just SEEM compulsory IT IS compulsory!

"What it matters is that you make it seem like a compulsory system, without having proof that requests to get this permission were categorically denied. That is probably due to propaganda."

IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT IF PERMISSION IS RECEIVED OR DENIED.  WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO EVEN ASK?

[Shadow]

"As the state provided jobs, it would be no more than natural that there was a registration system on where people were supposed to do their jobs"

Who made this determination of where "people were supposed to do their jobs".  In the West you choose the job you want to do, you apply for it and you may or may not be granted the position.  The government doesn't go and TELL YOU WHAT JOB AND WHAT PROFESSION YOU WILL BE, and certainly doesn't do so based on the profession of your parents (they were farmers on the collective, so you will be a farmer on the collective).  You are in bondage to this collective farm, until you ask for and RECEIVE permission to perform an alternative job.  Maybe what you want to do doesn't agree with government perceptions, (Oh, I want to sit down and write some protest songs or poetry or paint), Nyet! Permission denied!  Or maybe the director of the collective is short handed or doesn't like you or your family, or some other thing, so Nyet!  Who knows, regardless, until that permission is received you're legally bound to that farm and it's ILLEGAL for you to even TRY to move to a new place and get a new job.  It doesn't just SEEM compulsory IT IS compulsory!

"What it matters is that you make it seem like a compulsory system, without having proof that requests to get this permission were categorically denied. That is probably due to propaganda."

IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT IF PERMISSION IS RECEIVED OR DENIED.  WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO EVEN ASK?

You are in bondage only if you assume that permission will be denied.
Do you need to register with the county or state where you live ? Do you need , by law, to inform them when you move to another location ? Do you need to inform your employer when you take on another job ? Why is all this necessary, you can just leave your house and go to another, and walk in to the company next door to work there tomorrow.

Perhaps the misconception is on your idea of bondage and slavery.

[krimster]

"Do you need to register with the county or state where you live ? Do you need , by law, to inform them when you move to another location ? Do you need to inform your employer when you take on another job ? Why is all this necessary, you can just leave your house and go to another, and walk in to the company next door to work there tomorrow."

I don't need to ask for ANYONE's permission to leave my home and seek a new job in a new location.  Under the Soviet system, you WERE LEGALLY REQUIRED TO DO SO.

Perhaps the misconception is on your idea of bondage and slavery.
Perhaps the misconception is on your idea of truth.

[wxman]

You are in bondage only if you assume that permission will be denied.

You are in bondage if you must ASK your government for permission. Whether one is approved or not is meaningless.

As an adult, would you ask your father for permission to date a RW? Would you ask him if you could drive a car? Would you ask him if you could vote? Of course not, because it is none of his business. If you answer yes, then you are under his control and not your own.

[Shadow]

"Do you need to register with the county or state where you live ? Do you need , by law, to inform them when you move to another location ? Do you need to inform your employer when you take on another job ? Why is all this necessary, you can just leave your house and go to another, and walk in to the company next door to work there tomorrow."

I don't need to ask for ANYONE's permission to leave my home and seek a new job in a new location.  Under the Soviet system, you WERE LEGALLY REQUIRED TO DO SO.

Perhaps the misconception is on your idea of bondage and slavery.
Perhaps the misconception is on your idea of truth.

Allright give me the Soviet law text in Russian, I will have it translated. Then we will see the truth.
As for permission, you were not required to ask permission to leave, but you were required to inform when you leave. Same as you are required to inform the government and your employer when you leave or relocate.

I believe that your employees sign a contract that obliges them to work until the time they inform you of not wanting to continue.
That alone can be seen as slavery, as they have to ask you for permission to stop working for you.
It does not stop them from seeking other employment, and it does not stop you from taking away their privileges like a paycheck if they do not work.

[Serebro]

You are in bondage if you must ASK your government for permission. Whether one is approved or not is meaningless.

As an adult, would you ask your father for permission to date a RW? Would you ask him if you could drive a car? Would you ask him if you could vote? Of course not, because it is none of his business. If you answer yes, then you are under his control and not your own.

why to ask your government for the permission to leave?!Are you crazy?!

[wxman]

why to ask your government for the permission to leave?!Are you crazy?!

Exactly. That was my point!

[krimster]

Horroshie ludie, as little as 15 years ago, Russians who worked on a farming collective NEEDED PERMISSION TO LEAVE THE COLLECTIVE TO GO WORK ELSEWHERE.

My source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3gjeYWq61ZkC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=%22leaving+the+collective%22+russia&source=web&ots=Gk5ajvvRKI&sig=nqNKdr-T_Bh63n8G8eJkmhTrwIg&hl=en


Yup

slushet! shto eta? yesnayou!

[Serebro]

krimster, where do you take all those old propaganda books?!
yes that took place but not 15 years ago but in the 20-ies-40-ies, that happened because there was famine(not only ukrainians suffered but all people of the USSR did) so the government didn't allow the farmers leave farms as they had to work and make more "food"for the country to survive,  my mother told me a story that one of my acestors had to make a special fake stamp to put it on a document to be able to leave the farm, and that ancestor was my mom's grandfather, can you feel the difference: 15 years ago and 80 years ago?!

Stop living in the past and making 100 yo things today's reality, your government makes you live in a fairy tale and you believe it, wake up
wxman, in normal countries nobody asks for the permission to leave, maybe they do it in your country

[wxman]

wxman, in normal countries nobody asks for the permission to leave, maybe they do it in your country

I agree, most normal countries today do not require that. My response was made earlier to the post that "You are in bondage only if you assume that permission will be denied." It had nothing to do which if any countries require that. The one country that came my mind was China, not Russia. A person in China can not just "leave" the country. One needs permission.

[krimster]

serebro

the book in question "owning Russia" is not propaganda, but is not approved by Nasi, so you are not allowed to read it.

See the reviews of "Owning Russia" by Andrew Barnes

The events described are taking place in the early 1990's, not 80 years ago.  Their effects are STILL felt TODAY however.

It would be a good book for you read, but since it disagrees with Putin's viewpoints you will NOT be allowed to

[Serebro]

serebro

the book in question "owning Russia" is not propaganda, but is not approved by Nasi, so you are not allowed to read it.

See the reviews of "Owning Russia" by Andrew Barnes

The events described are taking place in the early 1990's, not 80 years ago.  Their effects are STILL felt TODAY however.

It would be a good book for you read, but since it disagrees with Putin's viewpoints you will NOT be allowed to

krimster, I am sorry to dissapoint you, honey, but the history of my family contradict the "good books" so popular in the west I am not allowed to read.

In the 80-ies I had "aunt Zoya"(she was my grandmom's sister) who lived on a farm and had a lot of rabbits, every summer when I visited her she knitted woolen hats for me which were made of rabbits' wool(I still remember those nice cute soft rabbits and hats too )... so...in 1986 she sold the house and moved to the city where we all lived and she didn't ask for any permission

and as for the early 90-ies, lmao, the government didn't really take care of what people did and that became the reason of the high rate of crimes and mafia's business...
krimster, stop reading science fiction books your propagandic government sells to you

[pitbull]

Krimster,

Is English your first language by any chance? I highly doubt that, but if yes - go back to your source about "leaving collectives" issue in 1992, and reread the highlighted paragraphs...I suspect you'll need to do this 5 times at least. Then please answer the following question: Do you still think the author refers to the ability of "leaving the collective to go work elsewhere" in the passages? 

Anyways, if I were an American I would refrain from critisizing other countries for "treating their citizens badly" in the second part of the last century. America was the worst of all the western countries by far...(I don't have to refer to shady resources to mention segregation, the fact that blacks only earned the right to vote in 1965 and the rest of the issue).

[KenC]

Pitbull,
Blacks have had the right to vote here since the 1800's.  The law passed in 1965 was to abolish some unfair literacy tests sanctioned by some southern states that were thought to be predjudiced against blacks.
KenC

[I/O]

The only fact I see demonstrated clearly in this thread is............

Denial ain't simply a river in the Mid East

I also wonder how much the recent threads here are doing for the Google ratings when someone serches something like "International Marriage", or "Russian Women" or.....................I also wonder where some of the more worthy posters have gone.........AJ, William, JB to name a few........Prolly gone to find a forum that has something to do with Russian women. :noidea: :noidea:


I/O

[wxman]

Every nation has had it's dark past and every nation has a shady present.

[Jet]

The only fact I see demonstrated clearly in this thread is............

Denial ain't simply a river in the Mid East

I think that cuts both ways. This thread was not meant to be "pile up on Serebro" and I had hoped a few more western guys would have contributed a bit more to exposing some of the more subtle forms propaganda we are faced with on a regular basis.

[wxman]

Propaganda is no longer subtle. It's right in your face when you turn on the television. It's so easy to find people who will believe whatever you say. We have infomercials pedalling every cure possible, every gadget possible, every way to make money, and it is a booming market. We have people believing in UFO's, haunted houses, exorcisms, loch ness monster, the yetti, faces on Mars, god, allah, angels, devils and on and on, with no proof whatsover that they exist. Yet people believe because they choose to believe. Now that's how propaganda is suppose to work! Have no proof whatsoever, yet get people to believe you.   

[I/O]

I think that cuts both ways.

Jet: My comment was targeting both sides of the ledger.

I/O

[Makkin]

  I thank god on a very regular basis for being an American. Having roots to mainly English decent has it's good points and I am proud of that as well.

  Propoganda or not....I am very sure there is no other place I want to live in the world and would respectfully decline the oppurtunity if offered to me as I have done recently. I understand also that many people from other countries would also respectfully decline to live in my great country and I appreciate and understand them and am also happy for them. Russia and Ukraine don't seem to be those type countries but what do I know?

Makkin

[I/O]

I understand also that many people from other countries would also respectfully decline to live in my great country and I appreciate and understand them and am also happy for them. Russia and Ukraine don't seem to be those type countries but what do I know?

Makkin

What do you know? If I am reading the above correctly, I would say, "Not much about Russians and perhaps Ukrainians". At a quick estimation, there appears to be in excess of 150 odd million people from both mentioned countries who have effectively declined the offer/option.

I/O