Run for your lives....The propaganda war

[KenC]

What do you know? If I am reading the above correctly, I would say, "Not much about Russians and perhaps Ukrainians". At a quick estimation, there appears to be in excess of 150 odd million people from both mentioned countries who have effectively declined the offer/option.

I/O

I/O,
Respectfully, you really do not know just how many people would opt for the switch unless they truly had the "option."  To my knowledge, no one has sent an open invitation yet.
KenC

[I/O]

I/O,
Respectfully, you really do not know just how many people would opt for the switch unless they truly had the "option."  To my knowledge, no one has sent an open invitation yet.
KenC

KenC: Fair point, however my point is not to define a number but acknowledge that a goodly number of Russians/Ukrainians stay in their country because they choose to do just that.

If you have been in Egypt or Thailand (or other places where access can be gained easily) and have witnessed the number of Russian holiday makers (Very large numbers) who could use that as an avenue out, but don't and return happily home, it suggests to me, if they wanted out, wanted America, Aus, Europe, or other, they would go. They don't.

Ken, if one reads the Aus immigration website (Simply as one example), effectively an open invitation does exist. 60 odd thousand (Reported, I can't confirm) Russians living here now are testimony to that.

The notion that most if not all Russians wanted out as we were fed here years back is simply a product of propaganda also, of which some, I was fed at school at times via documentary video as I remember. It was that very reason I went to see for myself in the first instance. I doubted, I checked, I found partial fact and partial BS. That was several years ago. Kinda like this thread really.

Conversely, another question arises by default from your comment. Those who have the "Option" and don't take it...........why? Are they so rapt in their homeland or are they so indoctrinated by internal propaganda they are afraid of change?

Mrs I/O is as Russian as they come and even she points out (In her weaker moments...go figure), one of the reasons, if not the reason Russians will be so defensive when Russia is challenged is that most Russians know the challenge is probably at least somewhat correct and they are ashamed of some things as they are. Put a person in a position where they are embarrassed and more times than enough, they will blindly defend.

As for the two girls who have fought so vigorously in defence of Russia in recent threads and went on unsolicited offensives against others and particularly America, although there is lessons to learn from their antics, based on many Russians I have met, they are not representative generally speaking and likable though they are, many of their ideas are simply too screwball to really bother paying too much attention to.

I/O   

[Shadow]

Horroshie ludie, as little as 15 years ago, Russians who worked on a farming collective NEEDED PERMISSION TO LEAVE THE COLLECTIVE TO GO WORK ELSEWHERE.

My source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3gjeYWq61ZkC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=%22leaving+the+collective%22+russia&source=web&ots=Gk5ajvvRKI&sig=nqNKdr-T_Bh63n8G8eJkmhTrwIg&hl=en


Yup

slushet! shto eta? yesnayou!

Krimster I have asked you for the Russian laws that prove your claims. Instead you come up with a passage from a book.
So where is that law on which the stories are based ?

[krimster]

"So where is that law on which the stories are based ?"

It's in Russia, that's where it is, go look at it, and then tell me I'm wrong!

[pitbull]

Krimster,

Your claim is outrageous and shows that your hatred for Russia totally blinds you and strips you of elementary reading abilities (4th grade?). It is amazing. You saw the phrase "leaving the collective" in the text of the book and post it as the proof of a totally ignorant claim without even reading the passage?

You seem to be a living proof of the worst stereotypes about Americans. Perhaps this is the reason of your many misfortunes in Russia? 

[BC]

Krimster I have asked you for the Russian laws that prove your claims. Instead you come up with a passage from a book.
So where is that law on which the stories are based ?

Would be an interesting read, but the concept is not new to the west.  Here they call such restrictions 'no compete' clauses in work contracts.

Another excellent read is Rutherfurds novel Russka which although historical fiction gives a lot of background / insight of how things were done back then.  Readers may find some correlation with attitudes and mentality of those they meet in FSU.  Highly suggested.

http://www.amazon.com/Russka-Novel-Russia-Edward-Rutherfurd/dp/0804109729

[krimster]

Pitbull,
   Of course anyone who writes frankly about Soviet or even Russian abuses of human rights, "hates Russia", of course, and so everyone who is silent on this subject "loves Russia", of course.

My reading abilities are just fine, here let me prove it to you, how are yours?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

That de-facto serfdom persisted in Russia till as late as 1974 (with a brief break during the Civil War), when the USSR Government Decree #667 was put in effect, for the first time in Russian history granting peasants identification documents, with an unrestricted right to move within the country — thus detaching them from the piece of land where they had worked for generations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkhoz

Until 1969 all children born on a collective farm were forced by law to work there as adults unless they were specifically given permission to leave.[7][8] In effect, farmers became tied to their sovkhoz or kolkhoz in what is often described as a system of "neo-serfdom".[9]

If by "worst stereotypes about Americans" you must of course be talking about the Americans who created an economy about 12 times the size of Russia's and who produced about 10 times as many Noble prize winners, and whose list of inventions are used by Russians every day, this is of course what you mean.  My "misfortunes" in Ukraine (not Russia, can't you even read correctly?) were about living in a very poor, run-down, garbage filled environment, inhabited by petty scammers, you may be happy in such a place, but I was not.

[BC]

If by "worst stereotypes about Americans" you must of course be talking about the Americans who created an economy about 12 times the size of Russia's and who produced about 10 times as many Noble prize winners, and whose list of inventions are used by Russians every day, this is of course what you mean.  My "misfortunes" in Ukraine (not Russia, can't you even read correctly?) were about living in a very poor, run-down, garbage filled environment, inhabited by petty scammers, you may be happy in such a place, but I was not.

You probably wouldn't be happy in the outskirts of Naples or Rome , Istanbul and hundreds if not thousands of other cities.  The good sized town where my wife lived was just as clean or cleaner than here and I don't live in Naples.  I wouldn't object to living there.  Olives have a pit.. It's your choice whether to swallow it, spit it out, or go for the comfort of those with the holes instead that might be a bit more expensive.

Luckily we have a choice. 

Lets hypothetically say you must live where I tell you.. my choice.  The only restriction is that the home I choose for you must be within the confines of the US border.  Think I can't find very very many locations you would object to? -maybe even in your own city?

Krimster, I truly enjoy your posts and indeed have learned a bit from them, but IMHO you're overdoing it a bit.  But hey that is just me.. keep on truckin!

[pitbull]

Krimster,

I specifically asked you to clarify your claim made in the post quoted below, and reread the page from the book you cite as proof of your claim that people needed permission to leave a collective to work elsewhere in the early 90-ies. You don't even mention this issue in your answer. Does it mean you acknowledge the fact that your claim is wrong and you misunderstood (in best case scenario) what the author of the book said?

Horroshie ludie, as little as 15 years ago, Russians who worked on a farming collective NEEDED PERMISSION TO LEAVE THE COLLECTIVE TO GO WORK ELSEWHERE.

My source:
http://books.google.com/b...3n8G8eJkmhTrwIg&hl=en


Yup

slushet! shto eta? yesnayou!

[Serebro]

hi, again, it looks like I understand what "old-school" krimster meant, of course he read something - a couple of words and without paying attention to the other words made a big conclusions about "terrible" communists' policy in the 90-ies.

I will explain what he meant by "forbide to leave".

Many young people who live on farms/in the country go to big cities and towns after they leave school because they want to get higher education.After they get their higher education they see more career opportunities in a big city and they don't want to come back to their villages.AS a result farms lose the young generation and people who will be able to do all this farm work.

So they made a special program-the farm pays for the education in college but after that the young person who graduated from the university has to go back to the village that paid for his education and work there for a couple of years. If they don't do this they have to pay the money back to the village.


They made in in the 90-ies.

But before , in the USSR the government had a similar problem with young people, many collective farms/small towns didn't have enough teachers/doctors/engineers, etc, so there was a program of "распределения" in universities: after the person graduated from it s/he was sent to different towns/cities/villages that didn't have enough people of that profession, so children in small villages could have exactly the same teachers as children any big city.
So my mom was sent to Kazan from a large Siberian city  where she graduated from  university. But that program stopped its existance in 1991 so now I can do what I want and go where I want..my country doesn't need me anymore

[BC]

If by "worst stereotypes about Americans" you must of course be talking about the Americans who created an economy about 12 times the size of Russia's and who produced about 10 times as many Noble prize winners, and whose list of inventions are used by Russians every day, this is of course what you mean.  My "misfortunes" in Ukraine (not Russia, can't you even read correctly?) were about living in a very poor, run-down, garbage filled environment, inhabited by petty scammers, you may be happy in such a place, but I was not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Russian_inventions

Wonder where we would be today without the periodic table, chromatography, radiosonde, Hyperboloid structures, pipelines, icebreakers etc etc.

Ahh don't forget the kick in the butt the west got with stuff like sputnik, first man, first woman in space.

Regarding Nobel prizes, even one of the links you posted mentioned that limited outside contact was prohibited with many in FSU probably was a factor involved with the low number of candidates.

 

[BC]

Many young people who live on farms/in the country go to big cities and towns after they leave school because they want to get higher education.After they get their higher education they see more career opportunities in a big city and they don't want to come back to their villages.AS a result farms lose the young generation and people who will be able to do all this farm work.

So they made a special program-the farm pays for the education in college but after that the young person who graduated from the university has to go back to the village that paid for his education and work there for a couple of years. If they don't do this they have to pay the money back to the village.

I vaguely recall similar programs in the west.  Don't forget either that the military services in many western countries use a similar method when they provide training for doctors, dentists, pilots etc.

[krimster]

Pitbull,
   The quote from the first book was to refute the assertion that "permission would be automatically given" in regards to leaving the kolkholz.  It's a good example that shows that the petty decisions by a low level bureaucrat can control someone's life.  I know this is subtle and requires thinking on your part, maybe it's why you are confused.

Further, in regards to my experiences in Ukraine.  I have been a frequent traveler to the FSU since 1996, let me do the math for you, that's 12 years, countless , countless trips.  I've been married to a Russian woman for 9 years, I lived in Ukraine for 3 years.  You, by your profile on this web site HAVE NEVER BEEN EVEN ONCE TO THE FSU!  So of course, you will lecture me about my experiences there based upon your VAST knowledge of the subject.

I have supplied you with references about not being able to leave the kolkhoz and move to a new location and seek a new job without official approval.  I will do so again, it is clearly written and easy to understand.  I will check it with my 6 year old daughter to see if there are potential difficulties in comprehension with those at her grade level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkhoz

[Serebro]

Regarding Nobel prizes, even one of the links you posted mentioned that limited outside contact was prohibited with many in FSU probably was a factor involved with the low number of candidates.

 

lol, BC, thanx, it reminded me of something funny, in the USSR people didn't know about patents, there was a famous men's journal called "Наука и жизнь"(Science and life), my father's profession is an engines'/mashines' engineer so we had a lot of them at home, people from all the Soviet Union invented something and sent their schemes/ideas with pictures to that journal.They got nothing for that except for the journal mentioned their name adn the place they were from.

Later we knew that one Japanese firm knew about that and it patented many inventions from that journal.. many poor naive Soviet intentors never knew  about that

[Serebro]

krimster, so how could you see that system in kolhoz in 1996 if according to the link it  stopped its existance in the 60-ies?!

[krimster]

Hyperboloid structures???

Yes, thank god, they came up with those, especially elliptic hyperboloids, where'd we be without that contribution?

Some of the Russian "contributions" you mention are not really Russian at all.

Petroleum "cracking" was first done in the USA according to the reference you provided, even the first petroleum pipeline was in the USA, so they could hardly be described as Russian inventions. Better stick to Hyperboloid structures...

My point for bringing this up is to challenge the Russian notion of "steotypical Americans", when in reality the majority of "our modern life" was created by these same Americans.  Go into any Technika store in Russia, see anything made by or designed by or invented by Russians?

[Serebro]

Some of the Russian "contributions" you mention are not really Russian at all.


My point for bringing this up is to challenge the Russian notion of "steotypical Americans", when in reality the majority of "our modern life" was created by these same Americans.  Go into any Technika store in Russia, see anything made by or designed by or invented by Russians?

as soon as America is made of people  of different nationalities who migrated there according to many various reasons we can't call any invention american.

the US also has a special type of a visa for talented people/scientists so every time someone of them came to the US and invented something they gave him citizenship and called him american.
PS: krimster, why did you go to Ukraine then if the USA is so great?!

[krimster]

It's a shame that Russians cannot confront the abuses made against their own people under communist rule and by doing so make the vow that it shall never be done again.  However under the refuge of nationalism, those with power in Russia are repeating history.  This is my message to you in Russia.  If you do not want to hear this message, that's fine, it will be you and your children who will end up in the next gulags, not mine.  Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.

[BC]

Hyperboloid structures???

Yes, thank god, they came up with those, especially elliptic hyperboloids, where'd we be without that contribution?

Some of the Russian "contributions" you mention are not really Russian at all.

Petroleum "cracking" was first done in the USA according to the reference you provided, even the first petroleum pipeline was in the USA, so they could hardly be described as Russian inventions. Better stick to Hyperboloid structures...

My point for bringing this up is to challenge the Russian notion of "steotypical Americans", when in reality the majority of "our modern life" was created by these same Americans.  Go into any Technika store in Russia, see anything made by or designed by or invented by Russians?

I didn't mention cracking in my post, it was just on the wiki page.  I am cracking up a bit though.. soon will have tears.. lol

Really considering America is touted as the land of immigrants I really fail to see how you wish to make your point.  Inventions are great but they don't put food on the table unless they go somewhere..  How many of these great inventions were of first generation immigrants?  Don't worry I haven't counted, but would be interesting to know.

Yes, an 'American' may have invented the TV, but what matters to me is what I actually get.  I don't think I ever bought a TV made in USA.  Same with the Technika store in RU.. anything at all there have a sticker on it 'Made in USA'?

The structures are quite interesting btw..  I guess an architect/engineer in the US though should just forget it huh?

[krimster]

BC,

No one in Europe or America can compete against Chinese workers making 4 Euros/day.  No one.
I used to be an engineering product designer for Grundig AG, almost their entire manufacturing was eventually transferred to China.

I'm just teasing those who at every reference like to indulge in some fantasy about "stereotypical" Americans. 
I'd just love to see some Russian holding an iPhone connected to the internet, say "how stupid Americans are", while a Boeing plane
is flying overhead, and someone nearby is listening to a transistorized FM Radio and so forth and so on...

[BC]

I'm just teasing those who at every reference like to indulge in some fantasy about "stereotypical" Americans. 

Yeah, I always get into trouble too when I tease my wife.. quit long ago.  Is not a RU 'thing' I guess.

[Misha]

How many of these great inventions were of first generation immigrants?  Don't worry I haven't counted, but would be interesting to know.

I am curious as to why is should even matter? If a first generation immigrant chose to live in the United States and patent their inventions in the United States and then develop/market their inventions in the United States, does that not say something about the climate of innovation and success in the United States? If it had been easier for the first generation inventor or researcher to the work in their home country and then develop the new technology in their home country, would they not have returned back home? Even if every great and not-so-great invention was dreamed up by a first generation immigrant, it would say good things about the United States and how they encourage innovation and would be a negative comment of the countries of origin of these inventors as these countries were clearly not capable of encouraging and rewarding innovation in their countries.

[Shadow]

"So where is that law on which the stories are based ?"

It's in Russia, that's where it is, go look at it, and then tell me I'm wrong!

Your claim, you come up with the law text. If not, admit it is false.

[BC]

I am curious as to why is should even matter? If a first generation immigrant chose to live in the United States and patent their inventions in the United States and then develop/market their inventions in the United States, does that not say something about the climate of innovation and success in the United States? If it had been easier for the first generation inventor or researcher to the work in their home country and then develop the new technology in their home country, would they not have returned back home? Even if every great and not-so-great invention was dreamed up by a first generation immigrant, it would say good things about the United States and how they encourage innovation and would be a negative comment of the countries of origin of these inventors as these countries were clearly not capable of encouraging and rewarding innovation in their countries.

Einstein makes a good example. Citizenship: German (1879–96, 1914–33) Swiss (1901–55) American (1940–55), Retained Swiss Citizenship.

Clearly, the impetus of his works was formed long before and far away from his final destination. Given the choice I am sure he would have remained in Switzerland.

Interesting:

In a 1949 Monthly Review article entitled "Why Socialism?"[79] Albert Einstein described a chaotic capitalist society, a source of evil to be overcome, as the "predatory phase of human development"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

I think I'll read it and see what the old chap had to say..

[Misha]

Einstein makes a good example. Citizenship: German (1879–96, 1914–33) Swiss (1901–55) American (1940–55), Retained Swiss Citizenship.

Einstein is a good example of what states should not do. If Germany hadn't fallen into a nationalistic frenzy and blamed the the world for its problems and persecuted its Jewish population, then Einstein would have stayed in Germany. Sadly, Russia seems intent of following the pre-WWII German path...