Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)

[Turboguy]

Tim, nice post and right on.  Having something to rally around like Pearl Harbor, the Lucatania, the Alamo makes the difference between healthy young men heading for Canada and guys who are blind in one eye or deaf in one ear trying to fake it past the recriter so they can go help save their country.

[Misha]

It's been observed by nearly every man on this board that the RW has one of the stongest aversions to accepting blame or owning up to an error. 

And the men here graciously accept blame and will own up to errors?!? Not from what I have been reading.

[William3rd]

Uhhhh- Hitler declared war on us, didnt her? Honoring his pact with Japan. Congress failed to vote for war against Germany. At least that is the history that I read

Maybe it has been rewritten. . . .

[Admin]

And the men here graciously accept blame and will own up to errors?!? Not from what I have been reading.

I think you are seeing many RWD members, right here in this topic, accepting their part (active or inactive) in the events.

You also see one of the hallmarks of this site that makes it GREAT - and that is, the huge amount of diversity. It will be a VERY rare occasion that we all agree on a point.

Having said all that - it seems clear (to me, anyway) that Serebro had (and still has) some serious emotional issues. Anyone who would callously expose a child to the kind of crap that goes on in this segment of the internet community has a serious screw loose. I am, as you (and everyone else) can plainly see, deeply offended at her actions with stealing photos from this site, including one with my precious daughter, and holding that up for ridicule elsewhere. There simply is no excuse for that sort of sub-human and despicable behavior - NONE!

I am equally offended at those who conspired with Olya to foist this attack and subsequent violation of human decency.

Having said THAT - I find it interesting that the AD folks are also raising that question - and they are asking her others - such as WHY she continued to post here at RWD for so long if she found it so terrible. Not too sure about the translation, but it appears one of their members called her "Dull". Soon they will, or they should, ask for more background about Serebro, as it may help to explain her apoplectic tirade and meltdown here.

- Dan

[deccie]

Tim, nice post and right on.  Having something to rally around like Pearl Harbor, the Lucatania, the Alamo makes the difference between healthy young men heading for Canada and guys who are blind in one eye or deaf in one ear trying to fake it past the recriter so they can go help save their country.

If the sinking of the RMS Lusitania is worthy of being such a rallying point perhaps it also deserves to be spelt correctly?
 

[tim 360]

William,  On Dec 8th 1941 congress voted a Declaration of War on Japan.  On Dec 11th (3 days later) congress voted a Declaration of War on Germany and another on Italy.  Cheerio, tim360

[deccie]

He just did not have the trigger to involve the USA in another war until...Pearl Harbor.  That event galvanized public opinion. 

The US was still moving towards war in Europe but Pearl Harbour accelerated the response.

The USS Reuben James was lost well before the official declaration of war between the USA and Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_(DD-245)

[BillyB]

I would assume by December 1941, besides Perl Harbor, the US was surely interested in developments in the eastern front.  After all they did at that point declare war against Japan AND Germany instead of just Japan on Dec 8th 1941, a day after Perl Harbor.

I get the feeling that the US did not want to be directly involved in WWII, but that the events and possible after-effects seen at the time did not give any other possibility but to declare war.

I assume many civilians by that time had lost their lives.

I didn't pay attention the the "other" thread so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else said.

The American government DID want to get involved in the war. One reason the US became a superpower was because we came to the rescue of a lot of nations and our industry for producing weapons was in it's prime. Although the navy wanted to go directly to Japan to beat them, General MacArthur convinced the politicians to go liberate our allied friends first in Asia to save lives and influence their future governments. MacArthur did keep his promise of returning to the Philippines when the Japanese drove out American forces stationed there after Pearl Harbor.

 Although the American public did not want to get involved in another World War, the American government was already selling weapons and ships to England and definitely wanted to stop Japan from taking all the resources from our ally's  territories in Asia. American ships were already sinking by German subs when delivering war supplies to England well before German's declared war on us.

America was more interested in preserving our allies more than the Russians who later became our ally. It's business, not friendship. We knew what Stalin was about and American generals such as Patton and MacArthur wanted to invade Russia after WWII. We didn't and the Soviets did a good job backing guys like Mao in China, Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam to spread Communism there and in and other Eastern block countries.

The Germans being allies with japan declared war, as required, on the USA first before the USA declared war on the German's.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_World_War_II_%281941%29

[Misha]

Having said all that - it seems clear (to me, anyway) that Serebro had (and still has) some serious emotional issues. Anyone who would callously expose a child to the kind of crap that goes on in this segment of the internet community has a serious screw loose. I am, as you (and everyone else) can plainly see, deeply offended at her actions with stealing photos from this site, including one with my precious daughter, and holding that up for ridicule elsewhere. There simply is no excuse for that sort of sub-human and despicable behavior - NONE!

Having said THAT - I find it interesting that the AD folks are also raising that question - and they are asking her others - such as WHY she continued to post here at RWD for so long if she found it so terrible. Not too sure about the translation, but it appears one of their members called her "Dull". Soon they will, or they should, ask for more background about Serebro, as it may help to explain her apoplectic tirade and meltdown here.

Well, the one thing that I have learned is that one never post anywhere any information on the web that you would not want to have circulated. Once it is on the web, you have no control over it and it never truly disappears even if you delete it. For this reason, I do not post my photos on any forums.

I have been reading the discussion on Antidate. Quite interesting. Yes, some have been wondering why she was at RWD as it was better to leave the grandfathers alone in their fantasy world 

I am not trying to defend Serebro's actions, but I believe KenC went over the line when he called Serebro a b!tch. I have yet to read an apology or even an acknowledgment that he might have gone too far in the heat of the moment.

[WmGO]

BC,  In '39 and '40 most people in the US did not want us to get involved in another European war. 

Exactly.

No conspiracy, no "delay", just a simple reality that it was
not America's war. It was Europe's and Russian's war 
and Asia's war -  until we got drug into it by the Japanese and the Germans.....

[WmGO]

I get the feeling that the US did not want to be directly involved in WWII, but that the events and possible after-effects seen at the time did not give any other possibility but to declare war.
 

That is it. No conspiracy to "delay".  And to be sure, if the French
and English had taken care of their business and whopped the Germans back
to Berlin at the beginning America probably never would have been involved in
the European theater of WWII.

********************

Back on topic: just say no to Soviet Babushka and Devushka Xenophobes! 

[KenC]

I am not trying to defend Serebro's actions, but I believe KenC went over the line when he called Serebro a b!tch. I have yet to read an apology or even an acknowledgment that he might have gone too far in the heat of the moment.

gabaub,
And you probably never will see an apology.  You certainly are entitled to your opinion.  As I have posted in this thread:
I cannot continue to be respectful to those that show me disrespect.  Man or woman.
  When a member here chooses to take an aggressive path, as I believe Serebro did, then they can expect the replies to be aggressive too.  The aggression started from Serebro, not me.
KenC

[SANDRO43]

It is always difficult to re-read history, particularly when not privy to the inner thoughts and behind-the-scenes actions of those in a position to influence it.

What I gathered from reading Winston Churchill's six-volume The Second World War was:

- He urged FDR to join the war against Hitler, since UK was having a bad time on all fronts.
- FDR would have but couldn't for political reasons. However, he did what he could, 'short of war'.
- After Pearl Harbour, on Churchill's insistence FDR agreed that the European front should have priority.
- The Italian campaign (stuck at Cassino, the Anzio debacle) had a sobering effect on the prospects of tackling the Germans.
- It was considered essential to give Stalin material aid (Arctic convoys) for his fight.

I got the distinct impression from W.C's writings that having Stalin bear the brunt of the major Nazi war effort, thereby making them BOTH weaker before an Allied invasion, was not an unwelcome situation, also considering W.C.'s lack of love for Communism .  

FWIW.

[Blues Fairy]

I got the distinct impression from W.C's writings that having Stalin bear the brunt of the major Nazi war effort, thereby making them weaker before an Allied invasion, was not an unwelcome situation, also considering W.C.'s lack of love for Communism .  

And Stalin sure wasn't in a rush to ally with Western Europe, since he was still plotting against "World Imperialism" at the onset of WWII.

[SANDRO43]

And Stalin sure wasn't in a rush to ally with Western Europe, since he was still plotting against "World Imperialism" at the onset of WWII.

As they say, war makes for some odd bed-fellows .

[Admin]

Well, the one thing that I have learned is that one never post anywhere any information on the web that you would not want to have circulated. Once it is on the web, you have no control over it and it never truly disappears even if you delete it. For this reason, I do not post my photos on any forums.

I have been reading the discussion on Antidate. Quite interesting. Yes, some have been wondering why she was at RWD as it was better to leave the grandfathers alone in their fantasy world 

I am not trying to defend Serebro's actions, but I believe KenC went over the line when he called Serebro a b!tch. I have yet to read an apology or even an acknowledgment that he might have gone too far in the heat of the moment.

You see, I do not completely agree with that. While prudent to consider the imbalance among many who circulate in the internet, there is a measure of human decency which everyone has a right to expect. Sure, we have seen it repeatedly violated, but that is no reason to 'give up' on it. If you 'give up' the crazies win.

>>I have been reading the discussion on Antidate. Quite interesting. Yes, some have been wondering why she was at RWD as it was better to leave the grandfathers alone in their fantasy world  <<

A clear example of putting 'blinders' on.

For anyone who cares, there is an age poll at RWD found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1818.0

Run the stats.

About 20% of our members are under the age of 35. Not likely to be grandpas.
Another 20% (approx) are 35-40 y.o. Probably not many grandpas
Another 20% (approx) in the 40-45 group. Possible, but they would be young grandpas
And another 20% (approx) in the 45-50 range. Yeah, some are grandpas
Leaving the balance above 50 years old. Some more grandpas in this group

Those are the FACTS - but you see, those FACTS are not the MYTHS the AD ladies wish to perpetuate.

- Dan

[BillyB]

- FDR would have but couldn't for political reasons. However, he did what he could, 'short of war'.

That's what I believe. Besides shipping England supplies and weapons, America sent England pilots to fly Spitfires to fight German bombers in defensive roles only before actual war was declared between Germany and USA.

[SANDRO43]

That's what I believe. Besides shipping England supplies and weapons, America sent England pilots to fly Spitfires to fight German bombers in defensive roles only before actual war was declared between Germany and USA.

Not to my knowledge, where did you get that ? The RAF Eagle squadrons were made up of US volunteers who usually got to England via Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Squadron) and, once considered operational, their roles were the same as any other RAF pilot/squadron.

[Ronnie]

My point about the timeline was to respond to any perceived delay on the part of the West to open up a Western front which could have resulted in many soviet civilian deaths.  Before Operation Barbarossa, Stalin was an unpunished aggressor pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement of 23 August 1939.  Further, according to recently unclassified Soviet archives, the USSR was likely planning their own invasion of Europe using Hitler's Wehrmach as an "icebreaker."

British intelligence was very good during those days and it is quite likely that Churchhill was wary of Stalin for good reason.  Consider the loss of life had the soviets succeeded in the pre-emptive plan proposed by Zhukov on 15 May 1941.  The Red Army could have driven straight to Berlin, crushed Hitler, and rather than liberate the rest of Europe would have subjugated it to Marxist rule. (See Stalin's Missed Chance by M. Meltyukhov) The war would then have resulted in far more loss of life as the USSR would have made themselves the new enemy, resulting in the use of atomic weapons in many more cities that just Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[BillyB]

Not to my knowledge, where did you get that ? The RAF Eagle squadrons were made up of US volunteers who usually got to England via Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Squadron) and, once considered operational, their roles were the same as any other RAF pilot/squadron.

Your link states they were not all trained in Canada but in England too depending if they are joining the Canadian or RAF air forces. 6700 were signed up and that's not including American pilots volunteering for other nations such as the French air force or Finland's to fight the Russians invading there.

Although against the law, the American government did nothing to stop this flow of American pilots crossing the border joining the Allies which probably pissed off the Axis. The US government did want to help out instead of sitting on their butt.

[Turboguy]

As they say, war makes for some odd bed-fellows .

Yes, that is very true.   The internet accomplishes the same with far fewer deaths.

[Catman]

I have to agree with Gabaub. KenC went over the line calling Serebro what he did. I am quite sure if he would have apologized for the name calling Serebro would not have had the meltdown.                                                                                                                      Quote from Serebro                                                                                                                            So, now I have to work a little and I still hope that the members of the forum will see a SEPARATE attached thread created by KENC where he will publicly apologize for his public insulting me.n.

Yes it was wrong of her to post pictures but this whole deal might have been avoided.

There are others on this site like myself, who are still looking. Now this incident is going to be fuel for the fire at AD.

[SANDRO43]

Although against the law, the American government did nothing to stop this flow of American pilots crossing the border joining the Allies which probably pissed off the Axis. The US government did want to help out instead of sitting on their butt.

BillyB, my point is that turning a blind eye to those volunteers was NOT the same as sending them over, as you stated. And the US Govnmt. did little or nothing to ease their way over, as they did in the case of the volunteers for Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers to China, for instance .

Your link states they were not all trained in Canada but in England too depending if they are joining the Canadian or RAF air forces.

I did not say they were all trained in Canada, I said Canada was their usual gateway to reach England .

[SANDRO43]

The internet accomplishes the same with far fewer deaths.

But yet a few casualties .

[SANDRO43]

This discussion would be more appropriate in the "Great Patriotic War" thread, but anyway ...

Further, according to recently unclassified Soviet archives, the USSR was likely planning their own invasion of Europe using Hitler's Wehrmach as an "icebreaker."

Ronnie, if you're referring to this:

Official sources, only made available recently, reveal that Zhukov and his colleagues had been planning a (preemptive) strike against Germany in 1941. A proposal from May 15, 1941[8], widely discussed amongst Russian historians, was first revealed by Hero of the Soviet Union V. V. Karpov, who had access to secret archives. He probably intended to show Zhukov as a military genius, who in the decisive moment had suggested a surprise attack on the enemy. Viktor Suvorov has used the plan to support his thesis and Mikhail Meltyukhov et al. have studied the background, reaching wider conclusions...It has been disputed whether the plan (demanding a strike against Germany), was approved by Stalin (or whether it was even ever presented to Stalin)...These plans officially suggested repulsion of German aggression and a rapid counterstrike, however, the initial defence phase was not elaborated, leading Boris Sokolov to compare it with the alleged Soviet counter-strike plans in case of “Finnish aggression” in 1939

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

I have some doubts about the military feasibility of any such plan, considering the actual performance of the Red Army when Hitler launched his Operation Barbarossa. But I'll admit I'm no military strategist/scholar, and you may be familiar with our term fantastoria and the expression la storia non si fa con i se e con i ma .