To Tell The Truth

[Bob Smith]

I'm not quite sure I understand. You consider lying and lying often to potential mates as evidence of having your act together? As a way to avoid the fate of being in and out of relationships and having children in broken homes?

Yes.

I never reveal what I do exactly or how much I make to potential mates.  I want to know whether they really like me for me.  Not for my bank account or the perception of my bank account.  Also I don't know how many women would be upset if they thought they were marrying a $50K guy and once she moved in she realized he was actually providing her a$400K lifestyle.

I mean if my wife lied to me and told me she had been with 5 other guys and later I found out she was really with only 1 other guy I can't imagine being too upset about that.

Anyway its been my experience that "good" girls can figure out whether a guy has his act together and can provide for a family.  They don't ask crass question like how much do you make.

So in reality I don't know what you would call what I do.  Maybe in my profile or doing the initial meetings I give people a falsely low notion of how much I earn.  If the question does get asked in a point blank fashion that's usually a deal breaker.

[Gator]

Bob Smith....  :evil: :hairraising:

Did you choose the name with those initials because you are so full of BS?

In another thread you [Bob Smith] brag about your income and looks and seem shocked that you're still single.

My advice would be, "get used to it."

   Actually Groovlstk, there is someone for everyone.  Can you imagine what  Bob Smith will marry someday?!  The zenith of desperation. 

[Bob Smith]

Bob,
You WIN!!!
That is possibly the single most repulsive post I have ever read on RWD.  I really have only one question for you.  If you hold Russian women in such low regard, why bother?  Just stay home!
KenC

Relax KenC.  I was being over the top and tongue in cheek.  Sure it was risque.  Sorry I offended you.  That certainly was not my intent.

Its just all this discussion of numbers compelled me to illustrate a point about numbers that we don't ask the ladies and that they don't generally divulge.  NOBODY ever asks me my salary.  Not even my parents who financed my education that allowed me to earn that type of money.  I owe them big time and they don't ask.

Its prudent for a woman to ascertain whether or not she will be in financial distress.  I would think a woman not doing this would be foolish.  But once she realized that she was well taken care of details beyond that point are irrelevant in the beginning and I would be suspicious of anyone querying beyond that point.  It doesn't mean its 100% certain the girl is a bad person but I would want to know why she needed that information.

[Bob Smith]

Bob Smith....  :evil: :hairraising:

Did you choose the name with those initials because you are so full of BS?

   Actually Groovlstk, there is someone for everyone.  Can you imagine what  Bob Smith will marry someday?!  The zenith of desperation. 

I don't think not divulging a $400K/yr salary is BS.  I actually think thats a pretty prudent move.  Why don't you post a profile on a Russian dating site saying that you are an American making $400K/yr looking for a wife and see what turns up in your inbox.

Zenith of desperation indeed.

[Gator]

Why don't you post a profile on a Russian dating site saying that you are an American making $400K/yr looking for a wife and see what turns up in your inbox.

Duh!

Bob,

RW have an expression about in every joke there is some truth.  So while you may say that you were trying to be colorful, I think there is some truth in what you first wrote.  I could never imagine myself coming up with such.

[ScottinCrimea]

Well, this thread has convinced me that Bob is NOT someone whose advice or opinions I would take seriously.  Maybe there is someone for everyone, but I have no desire to be around someone who expounds the beliefs that he does or expresses himself in such a manner.  I'm with KenC, that, even if offered in jest, what he has to say is repulsive and reflects something inside that just isn't quite right.

[Ronnie]

Y'know.  It was so much simpler the first time around.

Ronnie: "Hey GF will you marry me?"

GF: "Sure, when?"

Ronnie: "How about in three weeks during the semester break?"

GF: "Hmm, that would work....by the way, where will we live?"

Ronnie: "I saw an attic apartment 5 blocks from campus available for $55.00/month...I'm making $40/week at my part-time job on campus."

GF: "Yeah, I'm making about the same, we should be okay then right?"

Ronnie: "Right"

 From that point we became a team.  We were essentially one entity, blazing a trail into our future together.

Ahhhh, the good old days!

[Bob Smith]

Well, this thread has convinced me that Bob is NOT someone whose advice or opinions I would take seriously.  Maybe there is someone for everyone, but I have no desire to be around someone who expounds the beliefs that he does or expresses himself in such a manner.  I'm with KenC, that, even if offered in jest, what he has to say is repulsive and reflects something inside that just isn't quite right.

Repulsive?  Really ScottinCrimea?  Your sanctimonious words would have a bit more impact if they weren’t surround by ads that say, “models,” “exmodels,” and “Russian women want you” and which are festooned with pictures of ladies in various stages of undress.  What I say doesn’t reflect something wrong inside me.  What I say reflects what’s in those ads next your posts that finance this site.

Yes ScottinCrimea this was a family site until I made my fateful post.  Now RWD will never be the same.  We’ve all been robbed of our innocence.

SconttinCrimea is shocked….SHOCKED that within the FSU/AM arena there is a palpable undercurrent of $ for sex.

Give me a break.

If you want to fax your tax returns to Russian girls you meet on the Internet go ahead, but shelve the sanctimony.

To the newbies reading this thread I don’t know where people were raised, but where I come from in the United States no one with any kind or proper education and breeding has ever asked me point blank how much money I have, or how much money I make.  So do with this information as you see fit.

Guys just be careful.

[ScottinCrimea]

Thank God and Dan for the ignore button!

[Ronnie]

It bores me to hear people with the exact same views and opinions as myself.  Comforting maybe, but boring.

[Gator]

So Bob Smith bores you.   

[Gator]

I don’t know where people were raised, but where I come from in the United States no one with any kind or proper education and breeding has ever asked me point blank how much money I have, or how much money I make. 

Same with me. 

And where I came from, no one talked about women as diseased whores.  Can we infer this is how people talk where you were raised?

If you want to fax your tax returns to Russian girls you meet on the Internet go ahead, but shelve the sanctimony.

Did any man suggest this?  An overreaction on your part, Bobby Boy.

Actually, a man must do this as part of the the US Government Requirements for an Affidavit of Support.  Hopefully, when the time comes for a man do to this, he feels confident about his woman's intentions.

[Ronnie]

So Bob Smith bores you.   

Bob's okay,  it's the topic that bores me.  I'm so out of touch I missed where courtship changed from what I described earlier, to a game of "Let's make a deal", where players try to decide whether to turn down one deal in hopes of a better one or go home with the one they've got.  I guess it's not a new phenomenon just one that I wish weren't so.

There's a statistic that says that second and third marriages have a higher probably of divorce than first marriages.  I know there are several explanations but one that may be at the core is that young couples enter first marriages as two optimists striking out together to slay the dragon. Later in life, people come to see marriage as something akin to a joint venture with each party looking to see what the other can bring to the enterprise. Is this because at some point in life, optimism is replaced by cynicism and pragmatism?

[mendeleyev]

I don't know where people were raised, but where I come from in the United States no one with any kind or proper education and breeding has ever asked me point blank how much money I have, or how much money I make.

Yes Bob, there is no good reason for a lady to do due diligence in making sure that this stranger who wants her in marriage has the wherewithall to support her in his country, a foreign land where she faces a new culture, new language challenges, difficulty at landing a good job, etc.

Clearly in your mind, a lady should swoon at the prospect of marrying an American, quit her job, leave her parents and grandparents and ancestral home, and blindly follow you across the ocean in a sea of love. 

Even if you become disabled or fall on hard times, obviously it would have been wrong for her to have asked if you were prepared to meet such challenges.  Oh yes, Bob Smith, she should cuddle with you there behind the garbage dumpster holding your hand in wedded bliss, just glad that even though dinner will be leftover Alpo from the can you discovered in the trash this morning, the two of you are still "together."

The fact that discussion of salary is acceptable in Slavic culture is meaningless to you.  Only American culture is "pure and undefiled."  Any difference from how Americans feel about things indicates a lack of education and proper breeding (your words.)  Bob, open you eyes and look around America.  If you find anything closely resembling culture and breeding in these states, please send me a photo.  I'd like to know what the heck it looks like.

Your worldview as it relates to women, especially those from a legitimate society that just happens to be culturally different from yours, rings as repugnant and offensive.  The fact that you have such personal and intimate knowledge about "wh  es" scares me.

Bob, what I'm hearing you say is that you are narrow, provincial, untraveled and have no business looking for a foreign lady.  It sounds as if you're a great poster boy for the "ugly American."  Please stay home and date the cows (hey Bob, there's your American 'breeding'!) in your own small town.

[Gator]

The fact that discussion of salary is acceptable in Slavic culture is meaningless to you.  Only American culture is "pure and undefiled."  Any difference from how Americans feel about things indicates a lack of education and proper breeding (your words.)  Bob, open you eyes and look around America.  If you find anything closely resembling culture and breeding in these states, please send me a photo.  I'd like to know what the heck it looks like.

Your worldview as it relates to women, especially those from a legitimate society that just happens to be culturally different from yours, rings as repugnant and offensive.  The fact that you have such personal and intimate knowledge about "wh  es" scares me.

Bob, what I'm hearing you say is that you are narrow, provincial, untraveled and have no business looking for a foreign lady.  It sounds as if you're a great poster boy for the "ugly American."  Please stay home and date the cows (hey Bob, there's your American 'breeding'!) in your own small town.

Mendeleyev,

Superb writing!  From a sophisticated man who has lived in both cultures. 

Wonder how many men go to the FSU who are similar to Bob?

[Blues Fairy]

Is this because at some point in life, optimism is replaced by cynicism and pragmatism?

Actually people can be pragmatic and optimistic at the same time.  Even cynical and optimistic in some rare cases. 

[WmGO]

Well, not that I really care  but let me attempt
to be a moderating voice here.

To Bob:   I can relate to your comments about wealth
disclosure. I agree completely with those comments. You are
correct in the way you think and feel about this subject. After
all, you want a woman who wants you for you, not your wealth.
If the case were otherwise, you would not be decent.
One should never flaunt or brag about wealth in general. But this
is especially so when it comes to the romantic dating realm. And
applies equally to FSUW as it does AW. One thing to understand
Bob is that the subject will not even come up, and shouldn't, unless
and until you are very serious with an FSUW and discussing possible
marital commitments.  Ditto with AW. The main thing for the good
and decent FSUW is that she wants to be financially secure. She does
not expect to live rich, she just does not want to live poorly or in want
or need, and yes to have some of the nicer things in life that any AW also desires. As long as she understands and believes that you can provide her such a life most good and decent FSUW (ditto AW) will not need to know the exactitudes of your financial statement. And you are correct that virtually none would even comprehend it anyways. [but someone correctly noted that they eventually learn most of it in the K-1 process]. As far as gold diggers are concerned, I have met them in America and I have met them in FSULand. They are always easy to spot and weed out. That is just part of the process of wife "hunting" regardless of location.

Now on your other somewhat scandalous remarks that others have already
chastised you for, I would say that you just need to get some things straight
in your head and in your heart, and yes some of these things are of a spiritual
nature. You can do it. And you need to do it before getting involved in overseas
traveling to chase women. FSU is shark infested waters. You don't need to go there with the wrong attitude and outlook. Ditto even for pursuing women at home.  You can do it.

Good luck.

[WmGO]

There's a statistic that says that second and third marriages have a higher probably of divorce than first marriages.  I know there are several explanations but one that may be at the core is that young couples enter first marriages as two optimists striking out together to slay the dragon. Later in life, people come to see marriage as something akin to a joint venture with each party looking to see what the other can bring to the enterprise. Is this because at some point in life, optimism is replaced by cynicism and pragmatism?

I think that there is a lot of truth to these observations.

[Ronnie]

Mendeleyev,

Superb writing!  From a sophisticated man who has lived in both cultures. 

Wonder how many men go to the FSU who are similar to Bob?

Mendeleyev does write superbly.  However, this is not one of his better examples IMHO.

[Ronnie]

To listen to some of you, no RW of say 21 years should marry a contemporary but only consider an older extablished man and that RW are helpless waifs dependent wholly on a man for support.  While a good income is preferable to a poor one in any country, it's certainly no guarantee of happiness and we see divorce rates are very high in economically advantaged countries.

I know of at least two real life stories of Russian couples with children who came to the US with nothing but suitcases and a determination to make it.  No English language skills and no job offers. 

One couple won the green card lottery.  They knew only one person in America.  He lived in New York but knew of someone in California which is where the family dreamed of living and arranged for that fellow to meet them at LAX and give them a room until they could find work and their own place to live.

The couple sold everything they owned to raise the money for the airline tickets and when they landed in Los Angeles they had just over $500.  After collecting their luggage, the waited for the contact to show.  After an hour, with help from an airport employee, they called the contact.  He said his wife had changed her mind and didn't want to be involved.  Sorry.

As they sat at the airport discussing their situation, the parents tried not to show their anxiety in front of their three young children.   They did not say so, but I suspect there was some silent praying going on. 

Four hours after arriving in America, the family was essentially homeless and without a job or the ability to speak English.  At that point an INS employee on her way home at the end of her workday, approached the family and asked if there was a problem.  With the aid of a dictionary, they were able to convey to her their plight.  "Come" she said, motioning them to follow her, "you can stay with me until you find a job and your own apartment."

That was 9 years ago. Today, the family owns a nice home in Southern California that they purchased with money they saved while living in a small apartment and a mortgage they took out on the strength of their combined salaries. 

Meanwhile, the family has grown from 4 to 5.  The oldest child Maria, prefers to be called Mary.  Stepan is now wants to be called Stephen.  The youngest boy Bogdan is asking his parents if he can have his name changed to Jason. 

What this family has done, they have done together.  It is an American story not unlike many others.  America is not a place that harbors well the timid...those seeking guarantees.  It's a place that rewards courage and self-determination above all.

[Ronnie]

Alex and Olga came to me for help finding a condo on Maui to stay in for their vacation using free tickets given them by the airline after a flight delay.  I knew immediately they were Russian from their accents. 

Later, I invited them to my home for dinner and to meet my wife.  During dinner I asked how it happened that they found themselves in America.  They explained that they were home in their small apartment in Russia one evening and their two boys, aged 10 and 12 were watching a series on TV that was set in California.  They had been trying to find a two room apartment that would better accomodate their family, so one of the boys asked, "Papa, why can't we live there?"  Alex didn't have good answer so he just said, "Maybe some day we can." 

Later that night, after the boys were put to bed, Olga asked Alex, "Why did you tell the boys maybe one day we can live in California?" 

"It just came out, I wasn't thinking" 

"Well let's just hope they forget all about it, or we'll never hear the end of this!"

The problem is, none of them forgot about it.  The idea became a like a song you just can't get out of your head for all of them.  Each day the music got louder, until they decided to sit down at the kitchen table as a family and talk it out once and for all.  They discussed the difficulties of learning a new language in a country so far from their native Siberia, and where they had no friends or family.  All the facts indicated it would be a foolish notion and one that should be put out of their minds.  Certain the boys were now convinced of the impossibility of moving to America, Alex decided to put it to a vote.  The youngest was the first to voice his decision, "I vote for moving to America."  Then the eldest; "Me too."   

Olga looked at Alex in horror as if to say, "see what you've done!"
She then turned her gaze back to the boys who were eagerly waiting to hear the vote of their parents; looking first at mama, then papa, then back to mama.  "Would you like some tea, boys?" asked Olga.

That night Olga and Alex decided that they would go as a family to Moscow and inquire at the US Embassy about the possibility of immigration.  They were given forms to fill out and asked to return the next day for an interview.  At the interview, the DOS officer explained the various ways a Russian family could immigrate and when asked if they qualified for any of those ways, they said, "no."

"I'm sorry, then, I don't see any way I can give you a visa."

After a few seconds of stunned silence, one of the boys spoke up, "Lady, does that mean America doesn't want our family to move there?"  The officer, visably shaken, took a moment to respond, "No - America would welcome your family, but you have no relatives there, no job offers - I admire your courage, if only there was a category..."  Stopping in mid-sentence the officer abruptly suggested they return to Siberia.   

The long train ride home was a somber one.  The days that followed were filled with superficial conversation - anything but talk about the trip to the Embassy.  They wanted to put it out of their minds.

Then one day the phone rang.  The female voice informing them then their visa application had been approved under a special category - 'In the interest of the United States.'

Selling everything they owned, the family landed in San Francisco, where Alex, a machinist, found work and eventually Olga did as well.  The boys adapted well.  They learned English quickly and are now both graduates of the University of California system and have good jobs. 

Eventually Olga and Alex moved into their Sacramento area home that they had purchased and refurbished over 4 years of weekends. 



 

[KenC]

Alex and Olga came to me for help finding a condo on Maui to stay in for their vacation using free tickets given them by the airline after a flight delay.  I knew immediately they were Russian from their accents. 

Later, I invited them to my home for dinner and to meet my wife.  During dinner I asked how it happened that they found themselves in America.  They explained that they were home in their small apartment in Russia one evening and their two boys, aged 10 and 12 were watching a series on TV that was set in California.  They had been trying to find a two room apartment that would better accomodate their family, so one of the boys asked, "Papa, why can't we live there?"  Alex didn't have good answer so he just said, "Maybe some day we can." 

Later that night, after the boys were put to bed, Olga asked Alex, "Why did you tell the boys maybe one day we can live in California?" 

"It just came out, I wasn't thinking" 

"Well let's just hope they forget all about it, or we'll never hear the end of this!"

The problem is, none of them forgot about it.  The idea became a like a song you just can't get out of your head for all of them.  Each day the music got louder, until they decided to sit down at the kitchen table as a family and talk it out once and for all.  They discussed the difficulties of learning a new language in a country so far from their native Siberia, and where they had no friends or family.  All the facts indicated it would be a foolish notion and one that should be put out of their minds.  Certain the boys were now convinced of the impossibility of moving to America, Alex decided to put it to a vote.  The youngest was the first to voice his decision, "I vote for moving to America."  Then the eldest; "Me too."   

Olga looked at Alex in horror as if to say, "see what you've done!"
She then turned her gaze back to the boys who were eagerly waiting to hear the vote of their parents; looking first at mama, then papa, then back to mama.  "Would you like some tea, boys?" asked Olga.

That night Olga and Alex decided that they would go as a family to Moscow and inquire at the US Embassy about the possibility of immigration.  They were given forms to fill out and asked to return the next day for an interview.  At the interview, the DOS officer explained the various ways a Russian family could immigrate and when asked if they qualified for any of those ways, they said, "no."

"I'm sorry, then, I don't see any way I can give you a visa."

After a few seconds of stunned silence, one of the boys spoke up, "Lady, does that mean America doesn't want our family to move there?"  The officer, visably shaken, took a moment to respond, "No - America would welcome your family, but you have no relatives there, no job offers - I admire your courage, if only there was a category..."  Stopping in mid-sentence the officer abruptly suggested they return to Siberia.   

The long train ride home was a somber one.  The days that followed were filled with superficial conversation - anything but talk about the trip to the Embassy.  They wanted to put it out of their minds.

Then one day the phone rang.  The female voice informing them then their visa application had been approved under a special category - 'In the interest of the United States.'

Selling everything they owned, the family landed in San Francisco, where Alex, a machinist, found work and eventually Olga did as well.  The boys adapted well.  They learned English quickly and are now both graduates of the University of California system and have good jobs. 

Eventually Olga and Alex moved into their Sacramento area home that they had purchased and refurbished over 4 years of weekends. 



 

Ronnie,
Thank you thank you thank you!
What a GREAT story!
KenC

[mendeleyev]

Ronnie, you are a superb writer and thanks for posting these stories.  Very inspiring! 

I also agree that my previous post, even with humble thanks to Gator, was written in frustration and would have been better left for a day and then posted after time to ponder and edit. 

Back to topic...

On the idea of discussing salary and living circumstances:
I still comfortably maintain that discussion of salary and things like home location and size, are topics of much more openness in Slavic society.  Some of it may reckon back to the still often practiced rules of courtship where a man is obligated to prove to a lady's family that he is at least employed, has a home, and is able to care for their daughter.

But such open discussion of salary goes even deeper than the practice of European/Asian courtship.  It is often a way to compare reality in a society that was closed for a very long time and in which truth about the daily realities of life and work could be discussed only around a dining room table, void from government or media statistics.  Even today, neither the government nor it's controlled media seem overly interested in divulging comparative information about salaries or living standards except in tooting their own horn via very generalized successes.

Thus the only way for a University professor or mechanic or doctor to find out whether he/she is underpaid, overpaid, or on a par with others is to ask one's peers.  And in a society in which there still exists a significant number of communal apartments/homes, such information is often important so that households/extended family units can function property.

There are polite and civilized cultures in the world where refusal to discuss such things might be considered rude or improper.  In such societies the practice is typically done in good taste.  What may be interrupted as bad taste may be a factor that some AM perhaps don't fully understand culture of the pond in which they are fishing, and limits on communication, ie...her use of English and his use of Russian are seldom "fluent" which can easily lead to cultural misunderstandings when sensitive topics arise.

[Wienerin]

The fairy-tale above is interesting and touching, but... a fairy-tale nevertheless.

To obtain a green-card "in the interests of the United States" involves first of all a real outstanding achievements needed by the US, second - specially prepared petition by a skilled immigration lawyer, third - may take years to be approved. In some cases - as with sports stars, e.g. - involvement of an Attorney General and a special act of the Congress are required.

Moreover, either processing of applications for and decisions to issue immigrant visas (that is green cards) are not done by the consular officers. The consular officer's duties are to study the required supporting paperwork, verify the authenticity and look for any fraud or other things which may render the applicants inadmissible or void the approved petitions (as in cases, say, when a K-1
fiancee will be found married already, or having a criminal record, etc.).

In short - he has the right to deny an applicant, not to approve an unexisting petition on no grounds.

He doesn't even belong to the service that processes and approves immigration applications. The INS is a Dept. of Justice, while consular service is Dept. of State.

The Embassy doesn't provide immigration forms, doesn't process immigration applications, the concular officers do not "discuss the possibility of immigration" - the rules and prerequisites are on the Embassy site in English and in Russian.

Even a person not as well versed in immigration procedure as I am will find the story strange, to say the least.

PS read on any immigration site what trouble people have even trying yo obtain non-immigrant, that is visitor of student visa... also how many winners of a DV lottery are denied their green cards because they do not have enough assets, education or have health problems, etc.

[Ronnie]

Wienerin,

The stories I have posted are not fiction they're real.  You can discredit them all you want.  I too don't know how Olga and Alex got visas, "In the interest of the United States."  But they did, I have no reason to doubt Alex's word and have no idea how he got any other kind of visa for his family.  You refer to embassy sites.  I figured they immigrated in the the early nineties.  Are you suggesting there have been no changes in policy or procedures since those days?

As to your comments about Diversity Visa lottery winners.  Now it's you who's going on hearsay.  Winner's health is checked before the visas are awarded and assets are not a qualifier.  They must only have a high school education.  The whole idea is diversity.  There are already other visas for highly-educated and specially-skilled people. 

There have been a few cases where DV lottery winners have been denied greencards once they arrive because the law requires them to be adjusted by the end of the fiscal year.  USCIS doesn't always get them done that fast (surprise, surprise).  Unfortunately, those cases were tried in Federal Court even in the Appeals Court but were lost because the law is plain on the issue.  Maybe it's been changed since those cases, I don't know, I just ran across them in researching immigraton adustment cases.

Back to the stories of the Russian immigrants who came here with nothing but determination.  That is the way immigrants used to come to America.  It's not that immigrants built America, it was the determination of the immigrants that built America.  There is an important distinction there and what dismays me is the talk about RW who feel they need assurances that they and their children will be  taken care of when they get here. 

I told my wife, that I would not take care of her son.  That I would only give him the opportunity to make a life for himself.  That's the same thing I did for my own children.  That was fine with her and she is probably more disappointed than I, that her son, at 23, is not taking advantage of the opportunities.  It's been I who have said we need to cut him some slack and let him come around on his own.  He's been too used to others making decisions for him all his life.

America is about self-reliance and self-determination.  It's something that we forget from time to time.