A RW Perspective on Emancipation and Feminism

[Wienerin]

I can understand why some Russian brides violently object to being categorized as MOB, but to my mind the only legitimate objection could be to the generalization itself - we are all unique and naturally reject even perceived attempts to pigeonhole us

But I've never thought that beyond this reprehensible generalization there is anything offensive intended. The practice/concept (and even the term) is a time-honored one in different cultures and in different times. As MOB proper thousands of brides were shipped to totally unknown men from England to India, Holland - to Dutch Indias, from all over Europe - to the New World.

Until the very 1970s (before the Marriage Fraud Act) USA even honored marriages by proxy and sight-unseen - where the parties never or not in recent memory met in person. Even now it's allowed for the purpose of immigration for some cultures where it's improper for a future bridegroom to meet his bride except just before the marriage ritual.

And - the most important thing in my opinion, I have yet to see conclusive evidence that on the whole marriages in this old ways (including when only the parents meet and agree to a marriage) were less durable and happy than the new ones - with the onset of broadly proclaimed emancipation.

[Wienerin]

BTW, I've long since wanted to find a spot to spout about emancipation and feminism, and now decided that this is as good as any

Let me start with a historical anecdote. When long time ago there was held a World Women's Congress in Moscow (Russian - Soviet delegation chaired by Valentina Tereshkova, the first woman cosmonaut) at first the parties seemed to be agreed. More rights to women, more women power, etc. Sounds familiar? Do not hold your breath, - almost from the beginning things started to go downhill and how!

It quickly turned out that while the women from the West wanted equality in the educational and professional fields, recognition and freedom of sexual harrassment, EOE, etc. the Russian women which had most of these rights - vote, education, jobs equality from the very Socialist Revolution and some others - abortion, divorce, paid maternity leaves, etc. on and off but mostly on galore.

So what did these strange Russian ladies want? More recognition that they are women, female as opposite to male. More of traditional male providers in their lives, more duties and responsibilies on men as opposed to "I'm a workhorse, I'm an ox, I'm a broad, I'm a guy" (Russian trad.ditty), or as much praised and quoted description of a Russian poet Nekrasov "Will stop a bolting horse, rush into a burning cottage...", etc.

Western delegates were flabbergasted that Russian women wanted more to be pampered and cherished for their feminity than lauded for all these heroic accomplishements.

Now in these totally different historic backgrounds, IMHO lays the rub. Russian brides come to the USA with the expectations of enjoying fruits of BOTH American abd Russian style of feminism and emancipation. They expect EOE - BUT long paid maternity leaves, cheap day-care. EOE - BUT their spouses to be good providers and able to support them and their children as long as a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom. They praise the system heavily weighted in favor of the wife and mother, and children of the marriage - but vilify it when it benefits ex-wives and step-children. And so on, and so forth.

As to the sexual harrasment... well, guys, those of you who wish to have only young and pretty women personnel (and more or less compliant, too ) and the right to advertise for same like in "Wanted an experienced CPA for responsible position - presentable, not older than 35, no children" - you know where to open a branch of your business. In new Russia (philandering is also more than a way of life than a Clintonesque aberration, and business needs satisfied by conferences in a steam-bath with "girls" - a commonplace)

[KenC]

VERY interesting, Wienerin

[Gator]

Wienerin,

You have much more to say.  Perhaps this should be its own thread.

Regarding your comments, I marvel at how my wife picks and chooses from different Russian and American ways.  If the American way is not as favorable to her as the Russian tradition, she says "I am Russian."  Of course, when the other direction, she says, "I am married in America to an American and working towards citizenship."

Nekrasov's words sound very familiar to "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound."     Those phrases are used to describe Superman, a comic book character from the mid-20th Century, well after Nekrasov.

[KenC]

Wienerin,
Since being married to a RW for almost ten years, I can fully appreciate the difference between what a RW thinks equality is to what AW think about it.  RW seem to want to be equal but relish their difference from men.  Whereas AW want to be men without any regard to being different.  Many AW have lost any sense of femininity and tend to look down their noses at women who haven't lost it.  The American feminists have a real twisted view on femininity (a weakness) and tend to look at anything sexual as some sort of male dominance (a bad thing).

A few semesters ago, my wife signed up for a "Woman's study" class at the uni.  She could only attend about 1 hour of it before leaving and dropping the class.  It was as though she was dropped into a group of alien creatures with nothing in common at all.  I kind of wished she stayed in the class just to mess with them!  :zappedhim:
KenC

[Lily]

Wienerin,

You have much more to say.  Perhaps this should be its own thread.

 

Absolutely

This is to cheer Wienerin up here. Guys, if we succees to keep Wienerin posting at RWD, you 'll discover a real Russian gem.

[dneid]

VERY interesting, Wienerin

Yes, very interesting thread you have started here, Wienerin.  I hope this thread "gets legs" and you continue to post your thoughts as well as others.  I could go on about AW, but I will not for fear of being labeled a "male oppressor".  Let it suffice to say that the couple of AW friends that know what I am doing are all telling me that this effort is a complete waste of time all the while complaining about all the oppression that they have faced in their lives.  I even had one tell me her weight and drug problems are partly my fault because I am a male and I contribute to the continuing oppression of women simply by being a man and expressing my opinions with respect to the kind of woman I am looking for!  Needless to say, our dialog has dropped to about zero.
Wienerin, please continue to contribute with your thoughts.  I find them to be very interesting.

[myrddin]

Wienerin, keep it up!  I think you are garnering a few fans   

[OlgaH]

One day I came across an interesting article about feminism in Russia that was written with a nice sense of humor.

In contrast to Europe and America the Russian women don't fight for the rights to work and earn equally with men. They fight for the rights to spend the money that their husbands earn. 

The essence of a typical family conflict:

Man: You spend so much
Woman: No, I don't. You just don't make enough money.

[BC]

Last week I was visiting a business in Europe.  Man standing by the water cooler and a nice blonde struts by and smacks/grabs his butt.  Others in the office just chuckled.

That's equality.

[SANDRO43]

Last week I was visiting a business in Europe.  Man standing by the water cooler and a nice blonde struts by and smacks/grabs his butt.

Where ? Where ? I might consider retiring from my retirement, with those fringe benefits .

[Blues Fairy]

Excellent analysis, Wienerin.

So what did these strange Russian ladies want? More recognition that they are women, female as opposite to male. More of traditional male providers in their lives, more duties and responsibilies on men as opposed to "I'm a workhorse, I'm an ox, I'm a broad, I'm a guy" (Russian trad.ditty), or as much praised and quoted description of a Russian poet Nekrasov "Will stop a bolting horse, rush into a burning cottage...", etc.

Western delegates were flabbergasted that Russian women wanted more to be pampered and cherished for their feminity than lauded for all these heroic accomplishements.

And look where we are now - are Russian women more pampered and respected as a result of those feministic efforts?  Still they are the workhorse and the ox and etc., same as before, especially if they are single mothers.  AW, on the whole, have a much easier ride with child support and divorce settlements.  Seems the Russian variety of feminism benefitted mostly those ladies who have secure, well-providing husbands.   But don't American women benefit from same?

[Gator]

Many AW simply do not respect men.  In contrast to AW, a RW does respect a man, IF he meets her definition of a real man.   This is refreshing to AM and comforting, and many men rejoice in it.  Is it good? 

What I am about to say may be controversial.

Personally, I feel the RW attitude is one of many manifestations of the fact that the FSU is still largely a man’s world.  Yes, I hear stories of young RW making a good salary, perhaps on par with RM.  Yet, I find the FSU culture still a man’s world, and I am not exactly sure of where it lies between the West and the Muslim culture.

Unlike the Muslim world, RW do not take refuge in a hierarchical arrangement.  RW are not compliant, contrary to the imaginations of AM seeking a woman with traditional values.    Yet some aspects of the FSU culture seem more oppressive to women than Muslim culture.

The FSU culture gives rise to the attitude that women must accept that all men cheat.  Divorced mothers must take care of their children on their own without help from the fathers who can escape their responsibilities via loopholes in the “system.”  Sex with supervisors can be part of the job in some workplaces.   RM can treat women disrespectfully, even behave like pigs, without social retribution.  One does not find this in a Muslim culture.

Consequently, many independent RW refuse to date a RM.  A number of RW are so desperate as to marry a foreigner to escape the situation even if he is physically not in her league. 

A RW once told me not to worry about the plight of RW.  She said, "We are strong on the inside."  Yes, these are the same women who built the trenches (and some even went into the trenches) to defeat the Nazis.  Still I wonder.  I would like to hear more from Wienerin. 

[OlgaH]

Many AW simply do not respect men.  In contrast to AW, a RW does respect a man, IF he meets her definition of a real man.   

I know American women who respect their husbands, I guess their husbands also meet the definition of a real man. 

I feel the RW attitude is one of many manifestations of the fact that the FSU is still largely a man’s world.

Yes, and we have very famous saying that goes "a husband is a head, and a wife is a neck" 

All anecdotes and humor usually are based on a situation in the real life. There is one of them (in Russian) 

[youtube=425,350]w7GlXJrp34s[/youtube]

Man:       Darling, may I go to a bar... to have some beer
Woman:   My poopsik wants beer. Look I have bought some dark, light and even non-alcohol beer for you
Man:       But there is a special beer snack in the bar...
Woman:   Look, I have bought the special beer snack for you
Man:       You know, there is a special atmosphere in the bar... you even can use foul language...
Woman:   Do you want the special atmosphere? Drink your f...ng beer, eat your f...ng snack, but you will not go to the bar today!

[Ooooops]

There is one of them (in Russian) 

 

[KenC]

I have a question for you ladies.  Why is it that women from the fsu have been able to maintain thier incredible feminitiy through the years and for the most part AW have not? 
KenC

[Ooooops]

I have a question for you ladies.  Why is it that women from the fsu have been able to maintain thier incredible feminitiy through the years and for the most part AW have not? 
KenC

I do not agree with you, so I don't have an answer to your question.   

[mspanky]

 Probably because AW don't have to as they earn as much money as men, even though they swear they don't. Can collect child support ,sue someone who will not hire them because of appearance or age. AW have it really good here . Just like men in foreign countries have it good.

 But to be fair. Not all AW are masculine in behavior or looks. I see plenty of very hot women everyday. One of my neighbors is married to a very sweet AW. She is  close to her family as I see them visiting often. Both she and her sister are stay at home mothers with professional husbands who provide very well. The neighbors baby is a really good baby. Not spoiled at all.He is always well dressed in his "preppy " clothes and well mannered. She lost all the baby weight very quickly and I see her at my local gym often. She apparently left a very promising  career with an ad firm to raise her son . So kuddos to the AW who have maintained their femininity,take care of their children and husband and are more than happy in that role.

[Wienerin]

Hmmm... What I don't understand is how I always try to be as objective as I can - I seemingly come out as partizan (but adopted by opposing parties) :evil:

Please, revilers of AW, show me where I lauded RW "femininity" (whatever the heck it is - to be all pliant, subservient and "How clever you are - my li'l head can't take it!", etc.?) and disparaged WW? 

Well, to start with - and to go into this whole bunch of problems (much thicker than I presented), - there're many and many RW, and there re more of them every year, who would strike you, aspiring American husbands as definitely "unfeminine". Just because they had and have to.

Men can only uphold the pretence that women are less clever, smart, not equal in their abilities, largely decorative, i.e. "feminine" when the society fosters these ideas - mainly by enabling only men to be providers and|or (not necessarily the same ) legal heads of the families, the only ones that have "rights".

American society on the whole from the very beginning of American history was drawing away from this stereorypical gender roles. Pioneer's wife could only be a partner, not a shrinking violet, otherwise the family would have perished. But later, in a more settled times the men's world fought back - promoting if not the Kinder, Kuche, Kirche German ideal then something basically similar: li'l woman in a frilly dress, demurely waiting in the nursery and kitchen (or a parlor - depending on the status) while the male went out into the big stormy world to kill and bring home a mammoth

Sometimes this became patently ridiculous as in the 50s, when men came back from the wars to find that women worked - and thrived on it! in totally "unfeminine" occupations. Having careers, for G-d's sake!  And the movies, advertizements, etc. avidly promoting the iomages of wives in neat housedresses, permanent wave and frilly pinafore serving dinners, etc. Stay-at-home moms.

You cannot however put a jinn back into his bottle. And either the males adjust to having equal partners (different in some meaningful things, for sure, but equal), or rush to the ends of the world in search of their ideal of the feminine li'l woman... to get big surprises more often than not

[Gator]

I have a question for you ladies.  Why is it that women from the fsu have been able to maintain thier incredible feminitiy through the years and for the most part AW have not?  
KenC

I do not agree with you, so I don't have an answer to your question.   

Ken, I wonder why Oooops disagrees.  Does she think many AW are feminine (which is true)?   Does she think many sweet RW become sour over the years (which is true)?  

Whatever, on average I agree with Ken's observation (and I have made 20 trips to Russia,  the most recent was 8 months ago).  My answer to Ken's question:  because the "it's a man's world" culture in the FSU values women mostly on how they look.    RW are led to believe that they are no longer young upon turning 30.  Sheer lunacy (AW would not accept such a shallow attitude).  It instills a self-need to focus on one's appearance and femininity rather than on one's inner beauty.  If not, her man will leave her for a younger woman.  The attitude can lower a RW's self-confidence.

At a much younger age, my RW wife spends more on cosmetics than my ex-wife.  I am not complaining because I admire the final product.  Yet, I question why she is not as confident about her appearance.  And she is a confident woman.

One of her RW friends here in Tampa is engaged to an AM who has a new job in Miami.  She does not want to move to Miami with him because she feels Miami women are more beautiful and she would lose him.  Crazy.



 

[Ooooops]

Ken, I wonder why Oooops disagrees.  Does she think many AW are feminine (which is true)?   Does she think many sweet RW become sour over the years (which is true)? 

I guess I've been to much westernized over the last 15 years of living outside of Russia.       What I don't like is generalizations - Russian women are this, American men are that, American women are so, Russian men are such....   As I've said before - man are man (as in human beings not male species  ), no matter what country they live in.   There are plenty of beautiful feminine women in US of A and plenty of of not so beautiful and not very feminine women in Russia.   The question is - are they interested in you and why?   

[KenC]

Hmmm... What I don't understand is how I always try to be as objective as I can - I seemingly come out as partizan (but adopted by opposing parties) :evil:

Please, revilers of AW, show me where I lauded RW "femininity" (whatever the heck it is - to be all pliant, subservient and "How clever you are - my li'l head can't take it!", etc.?) and disparaged WW? 

Sorry if my post indicated that it was your opinion that AW were not as feminine as RW because it is my opinion.

Well, to start with - and to go into this whole bunch of problems (much thicker than I presented), - there're many and many RW, and there re more of them every year, who would strike you, aspiring American husbands as definitely "unfeminine". Just because they had and have to.

Men can only uphold the pretence that women are less clever, smart, not equal in their abilities, largely decorative, i.e. "feminine" when the society fosters these ideas - mainly by enabling only men to be providers and|or (not necessarily the same ) legal heads of the families, the only ones that have "rights".

American society on the whole from the very beginning of American history was drawing away from this stereorypical gender roles. Pioneer's wife could only be a partner, not a shrinking violet, otherwise the family would have perished. But later, in a more settled times the men's world fought back - promoting if not the Kinder, Kuche, Kirche German ideal then something basically similar: li'l woman in a frilly dress, demurely waiting in the nursery and kitchen (or a parlor - depending on the status) while the male went out into the big stormy world to kill and bring home a mammoth

Sorry but I do not accept that the defeminization of AW began during the pioneer days of America.  Up until the mid 60's AW behaved very much like RW do today.

Sometimes this became patently ridiculous as in the 50s, when men came back from the wars to find that women worked - and thrived on it! in totally "unfeminine" occupations. Having careers, for G-d's sake!  And the movies, advertizements, etc. avidly promoting the iomages of wives in neat housedresses, permanent wave and frilly pinafore serving dinners, etc. Stay-at-home moms.

  But didn't the RW go through the same?  If anything Russians endorsed women in the workforce long before America did.

You cannot however put a jinn back into his bottle. And either the males adjust to having equal partners (different in some meaningful things, for sure, but equal), or rush to the ends of the world in search of their ideal of the feminine li'l woman... to get big surprises more often than not

I now realise that it is unfair to ask RW to compare themselves to AW as they may be only aware of half of that comparason.  Let me attempt to clarify my position and restate the question. 

One of the factors that drew me to RW is the fact that they behave in a much more feminine manner than most AW.  This is apparent in the way they dress, their great pride in their overall appearance and their comfortableness with being the weaker sex (physically).  In short, most RW convey the idea that they love being women and go out of their way to promote the differences between women to men.  This is a shocking difference from AW in general.

Now I submit that RW have worked as hard as any AW in their respective workforce.  Maybe RW have been even handling the concept of duel incomes and duel careers longer than AW and yet it hasn't seemed to change their out look on being feminine or even being sexual.  I say "sexual" because some extreme American feminists view any sex as rape.  Why did these feminine qualities remain when the life of an average RW has been at least as difficult as anything an AW has had to endure?
KenC

[KenC]

I guess I've been to much westernized over the last 15 years of living outside of Russia.       What I don't like is generalizations - Russian women are this, American men are that, American women are so, Russian men are such....   As I've said before - man are man (as in human beings not male species  ), no matter what country they live in.    There are plenty of beautiful feminine women in US of A and plenty of of not so beautiful and not very feminine women in Russia.   The question is - are they interested in you and why?   

Oops,
While on the surface your highlighted statement is true, it does not allow for the differences promoted through different environments and different cultures.  While there will always be the exceptions (feminine AW and manly RW) they do not accurately portray the general state of affairs in either country.  I'll give you two examples.  Here in America it is almost taboo to bring to light that women are not physically as strong as men.  To verbalize the words "weaker sex" could lead to a man losing his job.  Now how silly is that?  Do not confuse them with the fact that men are generally bigger and stronger than women becuase anything less than equality is unacceptable.  The other example I would use is sexuality.  Even though the American society is bombarded with sexual ads and media at every turn, I submit that any woman displaying more than the "acceptable level" of sexuality in the workforce or in everyday life, will be ostracized by her American sisters as a slut or a woman of questionable character.  Aw don't compete in this area, they just tear down the competition.
KenC

[Ooooops]

While there will always be the exceptions (feminine AW and manly RW) they do not accurately portray the general state of affairs in either country. 

Ken, did you write about your Mother-in-Law as "she wears pants in the family"?   

I guess retiring to weakness is a form of protection for women if law isn't there to protect them. 

[Wienerin]

As to the obvious reasons why the RW sometimes presents herself as more "feminine" you don't have to contemplate Russian society, but have enough examples in the black or poor rural communities.

When for any reason - government, environment, racism, class, etc., etc. a man cannot support a family, this man becomes shiftless, irresponsible, nor anxious to maintain family structure. He will put a premium on the so to say "male" characteristics - physical strength, sports, drinking, cavalier attitude towards women, sexual prowess, etc.

And the woman in such a society on the one hand (because we are kinder and more loving and sympathetic  ) will bolster the illusion in her man that he is everything he is not while carrying double and triple load of homemaking, raising children, working and providing AND ascribing all these achievements to her man. On the other hand she'll have to maintain he ourward "feminine" characteristics - to get her man in a highly competitive environment, and to hold him.

I repeat, where men are stripped deep inside of their pride, wjere society on the surface maintains the same attitude of "Man is the strong, the provider, woman - the feminine, wealer, but nurturer" whiole in real fact this is no longer so or enough, - the morals become loose, the family ties - nothing, and if the next woman is younger, prettier, more carefree (because she doesn't have to work to support her family, doesn't have to care for children, have more time and money ro herself, etc.) then she WILL be a competition.

More often than not the guy is a sore looser BTW and it's a wonder why beautiful and deserving women will compete for the shmuck, but real battles start when the guy is somewhat better - able to hold a job, has some change in his pocket, etc.

Another reason is that in such societies a woman alone still is someone despicable, scorned by those who "got their men".

But Anerican gents should beware lest the pre-war Scarlett O'Hara from, say, Ryazan' with all the proper values and deference to her man, becomes the posr-was one, willing and able to go on in life on equal footing with men. We have seen a lot of such transformations - with different results. Many of the men lihe it, however - sometimes surprisingly to themselves ... we do not always know what we really want