Risky Business

[Gator]

Gator:  In Maxx’s case WOVO was detrimental, and KenC and Taz and Turbo make valid points.  There were other negative influences.   I said, “Change 2-3 of these, and Maxx probably would not have married Elvira.”  I did not say WOVO was his downfall.

but you listed the WOVO as one of those three.. and I explained why I disagreed with your reasoning!

Mark, go to top of page 17.  You will read that I listed six different circumstances, and I did not emphasize any.  Yet I should have as explained below.

Gator:  A WOVO trip has certain benefits for the appropriate situation.

I'm trying to think of when it isn't appropriate ...

Please save your brain and do not try.  You are a smart man, yet this one exceeds your capacity if you do not think Maxx could have benefited from meeting many RW, returning home and deliberating about his next step.  

Perhaps random numbers would have helped Maxx, perhaps not.  He was being misled by his agency and they possibly had more nut cases to parade past him who would make Elvira's red flags seem insignificant by comparison.

Maxx is a big boy.  He recognizes and accepts his mistakes.  He has never tried to place responsibility on others.  He has formulated a legal and administrative strategy for men caught in the same predicament.   As ooops said, he never called these women a "whore."  Give him credit for all of these.

[Gator]

what really matters is how she will cope in your country - even if you love each other and don't have issues with their offspring. She's going to be the one leaving her country -nothing will be normal to her. There's nothing better than a long car journey together to know how she reacts when tired;) 

I have heard the term "test drive" applied to dating women, yet never so literal. 

[Gator]

Here we have two guys [ed. Taz and msmoby] - with a great deal of experience of the FSU and their women ( with lot's of experience to offer newbies ) and we don't agree on much .. So, the conclusion I draw is that we have a different idea of the woman we want.... and how to find her ...

IMO the difference between the two of you is personality and history and how they are manifested when dating women.  I am not saying that one has a better personality than the other.  No, you'll are different.  Aren't we all. 

[Gator]

I admit I bored the pants off some for whom another approach worked ..

It is good when a man knows how he affects others.  The exact word is tedious.   Yet, it is okay.

Well, Taz, we look forward to hearing of your success - that being based on getting married and staying married ... right now, you appear to be meeting a lot of ladies and with your experience either you are VERY choosey or unlucky .. or wrong ...

If you knew more about my story, you would say the same to me.  Some of the long-time members of RWD and prior boards have given me heat over the years for dragging my feet.

Taz explains his position well.  BTW Mark, how long were you meeting and dating women before you decided to marry your beautiful lady?   Perhaps you were dating different women for as long as Taz.     

[KenC]

I gotta give it to Maxx that with all his shortcoming in choosing women he didn't call them "whores" even once... 

Oops,
"Green card whore" or "visa whore" are commonly used terms for women that would do anything to get their visa and ultimately their green card.  If you feel that the phrases cast aspersions on the woman's character, it is exactly what is intended.  Any woman that would use a man for this purpose doesn't deserve any respect extended.

(I really cannot understand if your intent here was to spank me or to acknowledge that Maxx has been kind to the women that screwed him over. :noidea:)
KenC

[Maxx2]

Do you old timers here remember this guy? It's Facetrock and his fiancee Marina (I think that was her name). Before I post why I am bringing him up I will tell the newbies here a little about his story.

Facetrock had gotten contacted by a "woman" whom he identified as a scammer right away. He decided to play along and see where this went. There was a number of coy letters exchange back and forth with photos attached of Marina. It turned out that the letter writer was Marina's little brother playing games. Later in the game Marina joined in pretending to be a scammer. When the "truth" came out and Marina admitted to the game Facetrock employed her little brother to spy on her. He was amused by the detective reports coming from the teenage kid about his sister's day to day activities. It ended up with Facetrock going over there and meeting her. They hit it off and he filed a fiancee petition for her. While waiting for the K-1 he posted his story. Everyone was delighted except me. I was in bad mood over my recent divorce with my Russian wife and had little tolerance for any woman that played games. I wondered if her game playing was over... About the time Marina was to come over Facetrock dissapeared from the message boards. I wonder if things had worked out and if they didn't if he didn't want to say.
 
Now the reason I bring Facetrock up. He had read my very abbreviated story about me and "Elvira". His comment was "I read Maxx's story and I wouldn't have fallen for the things he did. So I am safe". I read this and thought "I hope my story, my background and the mistakes and poor choices I made will not be used by others as Facetrock used it". My ex-wife was not smooth and intelligent in her approach. She didn't have to be. I was still reeling from my previous divorce and not thinking clear. Her clumsy actions showing her transparent motives were only superseded by my own naivety and desire to believe her stories.

Maxx   

[KenC]

Maxx,
Do you think you would have benefited from meeting more RW?  Maybe taking a step back and casually dating a few women before jumping into an engagement?

I talked to Greg (Facetrock) more than a few times on the phone back then, but since lost track of him.  Do you have any updates on his situation?
KenC

[msmoby_ru]

I have no particular agenda with respect to WOVO or WMVM. I think they both can work. I just see more risk in thw WOVO.

The risk is minimal if you do your research and is potentially FAR more rewarding ( IMHO !)

I didn't lump AW and European women together, just compared them in general, to RW. My main point is you can't compare them to any other groups of women I've met.

Well, if I didn't agree with you re FSUW - I'd be in "trouble" .. but I think generalising re women of different nationalities is well dodgy - unsafe.. There was a time when some West Germen men thought it was a good idea to seek an Ossie ( East German wife) following the break up of the SU .. that wasn't for long ...  Don't you think that woman from Kiev are more street-wise than most Russian cities - as they see so many more visitors? I can see BIG changes in only six years.

As for moby's comment about staying married. I did my due dilligence with my wife before getting married as much as the time and circumstances would allow. My issue was not with the woman as much as it was with her child. As a result meeting a woman with children is off the table as an option. If it wasn't for my ex step-brat I'd still be married. My ex and I are still great friends and likely always will be. She is a great woman but as good as she is her child is just the opposite. Unfortunately the vast amount of RW tend to spoil their children.

Lest their be any confusion - I read about your previous marriage and I meant no insult personally re it's failure - I refer to staying married as measure of success in general...  *I* have no experience of living with someone else's child - YET ..  I have lived with my wife for 9 months out of 18 - two trips of three months to share care of her son with her ex. now the ex has "washed" his hands of he near adult son - and we are sailing into TOTALLY unchartered waters... I bear your experience and advice heavily in mind ..

WOVO won't work very well unless you both have easy and frequent access to email. It also is very important that you can speak a common language or the translator fees will eat you alive.

Totally agree, a marriage ( let a lone dating/ living together ) if neither of you are able to communicate without a translator is going to be difficult - yet there are those that manage - I take my hat off to them.

Basically you are "front-loading" the relationship in both time and expense before you've met in person which greatly increases the upfront risk in both time and money.

How so? This is just NONSENSE .. If you can successfully communicate by email / phone /sms  / web cam and you both have always on internet - you know how they look, sound - you can catch each other at good and bad times .. By the time you decide to have a mutually exclusive meeting time - you will have a pretty good idea of her lifestyle and any red flags / doubts can be discussed .. you'll know about her tastes in music / art  - the meeting is to find out if the chemistry you both felt is transformed in reality...   *IF* the trip doesn't work out - YOU need to ask questions of yourself .  This form of visit is far more likely to result ( as Gator said) in some form of intimacy - not necessarily outright sex. You know each other BEFORE you meet ... the "risk" to me - is that you need to careful about the greater dangers of STDs-esp in the FSU..

It goes counter to the adage of putting all your eggs in one basket. People can choose whatever method they want but there is no way I am putting all my investment money in just one stock until I really know it well. I would take a trip to the companies' headquarters first rather than just read about it or make a few calls if you get my drift. It is way too easy to HIDE something long distance. That is true of both sides of course as both men and women do it.

Well if you are now trying to compare finding a wife with stocks and shares ... *I* have a feeling you have spent FAR more than I have - but should that be an issue.. if one decides to go down this path - one really shouldn't worry about the cost of failure.. if you do, don't go there..

This IS a risky business

[Maxx2]

Maxx,
Do you think you would have benefited from meeting more RW?  Maybe taking a step back and casually dating a few women before jumping into an engagement?

I talked to Greg (Facetrock) more than a few times on the phone back then, but since lost track of him.  Do you have any updates on his situation?
KenC

Hello Ken

I decided I was going to continue with my story until I completed it and then go back and answer everyone's questions. Yet I want to answer you two questions above now.

"Do you think you would have benefited from meeting more RW?  Maybe taking a step back and casually dating a few women before jumping into an engagement?"

It would be been best for me to have dated local women for a year or two before heading off to the FSU. I would have probably not gone over there after dating women here. The reason being that I wasn't looking for the youngest prettiest woman I could have found in the FSU. I would be looking in the USA where that was unlikely. If I had found a woman similar to Irina as far as age and looks where I would have been content. After all most 47 year old men here in America see themselves a lucky hooking up with a 38 year old woman who isn't fat. I was thinking like an American when I went to Russia. I didn't see going after Irina as bottom feeding. The young women I seen on the website seemed out of touch for me and in some/many instances would have been so I didn't consider those. I tried be practical about all of this.

"I talked to Greg (Facetrock) more than a few times on the phone back then, but since lost track of him.  Do you have any updates on his situation?
KenC"

Nothing. He lives a hundred miles or so south of me in La Cross, Wisconsin along the Mississippi River and the Minnesota border. I talked with him once.


Maxx

[msmoby_ru]

Facetrock had gotten contacted by a "woman" whom he identified as a scammer right away. He decided to play along and see where this went. ... They hit it off and he filed a fiancee petition for her. While waiting for the K-1 he posted his story.

 
Now the reason I bring Facetrock up. He had read my very abbreviated story about me and "Elvira". His comment was "I read Maxx's story and I wouldn't have fallen for the things he did. So I am safe". I read this and thought "I hope my story, my background and the mistakes and poor choices I made will not be used by others as Facetrock used it". My ex-wife was not smooth and intelligent in her approach. She didn't have to be. I was still reeling from my previous divorce and not thinking clear. Her clumsy actions showing her transparent motives were only superseded by my own naivety and desire to believe her stories.

Maxx   

Hi Maxx, you had a BAD experience - no doubt - and if this Facetrock didn't work out - he only had himself to blame  ... he and she were playing games.. and what's to say they both wouldn't get bored and do the same, again

Good luck for your future.

[OlgaH]

Maxx,

I also wish you good luck.
_______________________________-

Honestly, if you  meet even thousands of RWs or AWs (it doesn't matter) and choose the best RW and right one for you, there is always a chance to see her other side, when she will get from you what she wants...

As we say in Russia "this song is old as the world" 

[msmoby_ru]

but you listed the WOVO as one of those three.. and I explained why I disagreed with your reasoning!

Mark, go to top of page 17.  You will read that I listed six different circumstances, and I did not emphasize any.  Yet I should have as explained below.

..and one of the 3 or 6 "mistakes" ( whatever) was "perhaps" going on a WOVO trip  .. I'm merely pointing out that I fail to see how it could have been included in the list, at all !


Mark ( msmoby_ru) I'm trying to think of when it isn't appropriate ...

Please save your brain and do not try.  

Thanks, you're too kind !

You are a smart man, yet this one exceeds your capacity if you do not think Maxx could have benefited from meeting many RW, returning home and deliberating about his next step.  

Covered already, Gator - at length - won't bore others again - you do read all my posts - don't you ?!  

Perhaps random numbers would have helped Maxx, perhaps not.  He was being misled by his agency and they possibly had more nut cases to parade past him who would make Elvira's red flags seem insignificant by comparison.

Thanks for reinforcing my view of dating agencies.

Maxx is a big boy.  He recognizes and accepts his mistakes.  He has never tried to place responsibility on others.  He has formulated a legal and administrative strategy for men caught in the same predicament.   As ooops said, he never called these women a "whore."  Give him credit for all of these.

To whom is this addressed ? I've concerned with some advice given to him ! .. As he is a "big boy" did any of us need to give him advice?!

[msmoby_ru]

It is good when a man knows how he affects others.  The exact word is tedious.   Yet, it is okay.

Oh, you're very welcome

 

If you knew more about my story, you would say the same to me.  Some of the long-time members of RWD and prior boards have given me heat over the years for dragging my feet.

 

?? where did I say Taz is dragging his feet - I'd say he is burning lots of rubber .. and when he settles down is up to him..

Taz explains his position well. 

Yes, I have read his trip reports ..

BTW Mark, how long were you meeting and dating women before you decided to marry your beautiful lady?   Perhaps you were dating different women for as long as Taz.     

Well Gator, yet, AGAIN, the inevitable conclusion is my posts are "too tedious" for you to pay attention ... if you'd actually read them you'd know, already;)  Perhaps you could save us a lot of time and make your point !

[KenC]

Msmoby,

A closed mind is like a closed book: just a block of wood. (Chinese proverb)

KenC

[msmoby_ru]

Msmoby,

A closed mind is like a closed book: just a block of wood. (Chinese proverb)

KenC

KenC - Aslo a Chinese Proverb  -   "Your neighbour's wife looks prettier than your own." .....So, you really shouldn't believe everything these Chinese proverbs say

[KenC]

Msmoby,
It is a waste of time and energy to debate ideas with someone with a mind that is closed to ideas other than his own.

You are right, you are always right and you will always be right.
Have a good day.
KenC

[Maxx2]

Thanks! Olga and MSMoby it was a learning experience to be sure.


Maxx

[Ooooops]

(I really cannot understand if your intent here was to spank me or to acknowledge that Maxx has been kind to the women that screwed him over. :noidea:)

Both.     Green Card Girl conveys the message just as good, as Maxx demonstrated. 

[Ooooops]

My ex-wife was not smooth and intelligent in her approach. She didn't have to be. I was still reeling from my previous divorce and not thinking clear.

If I remember correctly, every "Help yourself" book says in big friendly letters  - NO REBOUND RELATIONSHIPS!   And I understand why...

[Ronnie]

Mark,
You aren't alone in your negative view of dating services.  However, finding a bad agency does nothing to reinforce a view that agencie generally are bad and to be avoided.  You can no more make that claim than one can point to a bad doctor and say it supports a claim that doctors should be avoided, etc.

I recognize that there are bad agencies...some bad apples in the barrel, if you will.  I witnessed, almost first hand, a scam agency in Odessa.  The agency would engage an attractive local girl who had no interest in finding a husband because she was either already married or engaged.  But she was attractive and in need of money, so she participated in the rouse, even dating, but not getting intimate with a WM should he come to visit. 

But for every bad apple, there is at least one honest agency that will provide an invaluable service and whose goal it is to have a happy result for their clients.  They know how fast word can spread around the internet.  One need only google the name of the agency to read about a bad experience.   

I know of agencies who upon hearing of objectionable conduct by a lady will immediatelypurge her from their system and not help her further. Ditto should they see that the lady is not sincerely seeking to marry.   Some have a set of rules that if the ladies bread any of them, they will be removed. 

Again, arguing that not all agencies are honest does not and should not convince anyone to avoid using any agency.  That would be irresponsible in my view and we call that throwing the baby out with the bath water.  Wouldn't the better advice be to check out an agency, get references and know something about them before using them?

[steviej]

Mark,
You aren't alone in your negative view of dating services.  However, finding a bad agency does nothing to reinforce a view that agencie generally are bad and to be avoided.  You can no more make that claim than one can point to a bad doctor and say it supports a claim that doctors should be avoided, etc.

I recognize that there are bad agencies...some bad apples in the barrel, if you will.  I witnessed, almost first hand, a scam agency in Odessa.  The agency would engage an attractive local girl who had no interest in finding a husband because she was either already married or engaged.  But she was attractive and in need of money, so she participated in the rouse, even dating, but not getting intimate with a WM should he come to visit. 

But for every bad apple, there is at least one honest agency that will provide an invaluable service and whose goal it is to have a happy result for their clients.  They know how fast word can spread around the internet.  One need only google the name of the agency to read about a bad experience.   

I know of agencies who upon hearing of objectionable conduct by a lady will immediatelypurge her from their system and not help her further. Ditto should they see that the lady is not sincerely seeking to marry.   Some have a set of rules that if the ladies bread any of them, they will be removed. 

Again, arguing that not all agencies are honest does not and should not convince anyone to avoid using any agency.  That would be irresponsible in my view and we call that throwing the baby out with the bath water.  Wouldn't the better advice be to check out an agency, get references and know something about them before using them?

Excellent point, Ronnie. Our friend Myrddin is even at this very moment spending a delightful week in Ukraine with four very nice women that were introduced to him through an agency (current trip reports). I myself was initially introduced to my wife through an agency. So, they should be used wisely, but they should also be considered a potentially invaluable resource, IMHO.

[myrddin]

Excellent point, Ronnie. Our friend Myrddin is even at this very moment spending a delightful week in Ukraine with four very nice women that were introduced to him through an agency (current trip reports). I myself was initially introduced to my wife through an agency. So, they should be used wisely, but they should also be considered a potentially invaluable resource, IMHO.

Hey, you go to sleep for change and someone steals your thunder! 

All the ladies I met through that particular agency were very nice, including the terps and the owner, and the ladies my friends met.  Some weren't good matches for me but they were sincere.  My biggest problem was trying to decide out who was the best match among several good ones.  I also know of an agency that recently purged some ladies from their database.

steviej, I don't recall you mentioning that you met your wife initially through an agency, but it's good to hear that it can work!  As you and Ronnie say, you just have to put in a little effort to avoid a bad agency and keep your eyes open.  Heck, all you need to do to gain some valuable information is post a question on this board (or pm people).

[msmoby_ru]

Excellent point, Ronnie. Our friend Myrddin is even at this very moment spending a delightful week in Ukraine with four very nice women that were introduced to him through an agency (current trip reports). I myself was initially introduced to my wife through an agency. So, they should be used wisely, but they should also be considered a potentially invaluable resource, IMHO.

AH... I see said the blind man .. I really didn't understand Ken's point about "closed minds" .. I thought he was referring to the good 'ol WOVO / WVWM debate...

So.. in the same way I accept that there is no hard and fast rules re WOVO/ WMVM,  I also see agencies have a role to play, too ... please read on ...

So, Ronnie, KenC and Steve - please re-read my posts on this thread - I entered because I thought Gator was iincorrect in including making Maxx's trip being a WOVO as a possible reason for failure...   I do appreciate the time you took to explain your P.o.V's and readily ( again ) see that agencies aren't all bad..

Hope that's cleared up ...    

[KenC]

AH... I see said the blind man .. I really didn't understand Ken's point about "closed minds" .. I thought he was referring to the good 'ol WOVO / WVWM debate...

I was and I was also addressing your total lack of ability or willingness to acknowledge that any view other than your own has some merit.

So.. in the same way I accept that there is no hard and fast rules re WOVO/ WMVM,  I also see agencies have a role to play, too ... please read on ...

WOW!  You do?  Could have fooled me with your condescending remarks about anything that doesn't align with your POV.

So, Ronnie, KenC and Steve - please re-read my posts on this thread - I entered because I thought Gator was iincorrect in including making Maxx's trip being a WOVO as a possible reason for failure...   I do appreciate the time you took to explain your P.o.V's and readily ( again ) see that agencies aren't all bad..

Hope that's cleared up ...    

Not really.
KenC

[Maxx2]

I decided to back up a little on my story to the beginning of how I got this idea of finding a wife from the FSU.

Also I have some unique understanding of how agencies work from a 'follow the money' perspective. Insider stuff that was given to me. I have never seen any of this on message boards. To me it is the second half of the puzzle of trying to figure out how and why they do what they do.

Maxx