Is it OK to meet with more than one woman on your trip to FSU

[Taz]

I doubt few will change their mind here. I was originally in the camp of VO from the get go. I realized that is a flawed logic especially when I factor in the cost. Once I have found the woman I am really interested in then I'll visit only her.

For all you fans of extensive etter writing before you. How do you know it is the woman's words and not some others? This is my biggest issue with a woman before you meet her is how do you know she is real, her words honest, not a guy, etc. I have witnessed first hand some friends of mine (not romantic women friends but only friends) sit around together and answer the guys' letters they received. The guys thought they were individually writing just one woman but instead it was a collective answer from all the women. The guys sure loved the letters but it wasnt THE woman they were writing who answered them!

I have seen this time and again. It is a little brain trust that answers your letters. How do you know it isn't an agency shill? All in all it sounds pretty naive to me as you must totally TRUST a stranger you have never met. How many addresses are you going to order until you settle on THE ONE? Is this how you dated BEFORE you went after RW?

I try to date as much as possible in the same manner I would here or they would there. I prefer more real and less virtual in my relationship thank you very much.

[I/O]

LOL, this is always too funny. Taz, why do you assume the VO routine is only based on writing endless letters? For a guy who has never been to Russia or the country he is targeting, yes, he is firing blind bullets, but honestly, after having spent a bit of time looking around before getting madly involved in searching, I found it none too difficult to sort out who was who in regard to legitimacy. Thus I always suggest a first trip should be a holiday type trip and meet someone only if you feel so inclined. After you see a little on the ground the BS stands out like the .....................well it stands out.

My view of the VO routine was formed after travelling severally and it went about like this...........a few letters and go visit. I never spoke to my now wife by phone before meeting. It was an on and off thing over some time. A few letters in a week and then nothing for a couple of weeks, depending on each of our schedules. It was not "Project Getawife". I can assure you, there was no flowers-in-words in that letter exchange. What we established was basically what type of person each other was and what our broad life goals were. From that we concluded there might be a chance and we took that chance.

What to say.........it worked for us. Is that advice? No way...!!! We did the VO, we never spoke by phone, we have a big age gap, she had no English, we met in my country, what do you say? Lunacy? Probably and I enjoy waking up with my fellow lunatic each morning.

So is there anything to learn from my experience? Madness works. Perhaps the VM thing is better suited to those who have never been and the VO is better suited to those who have been. :noidea: BTW if time and money put one under so much pressure as to need to change his style in order to continue, IMO he should stay home.

I/O 

[Taz]

I don't assume that writing letters is the only way. Not every one has internet access and some of the best cities to search in have some of the worst internet connectivity and not ALL women have home PCs or even convenient internet access.

It isn't just about the money but the time requirement as well. If the VO doesn't work and is his first trip, he need to regroup quickly so he doesn't piss both his TIME and MONEY away. So if the guy only has 2 weeks of vacation a year he better carefully think about what is his best option.

Personally I would suggest what I did for Myrddin and SwissKid. Line up several meetings the first days and leave plenty of time to spend with the woman that seems to be the best match. They didn't go into this blind. They looked at several profiles and sent introductory letters. Where there was common interest as well as the women being in town, meetings were arranged.

Two total newbies with minimal planning each found a very good woman. Actually better than that but I'll leave it up to their trip reports to detail that.

Whatever works for you works for YOU. I took two guys who were noobs in this and they are doing pretty well with the WMVM routine so far. There was a lot of instant chemistry in many of these meetings. I witnessed and so did they.

Honestly I feel that I could personally be successful with almost any methodology. When I go on vacation I am pretty relaxed and it is easy for me to meet people so technically I could meet many if I wanted to. At this moment I am focused on one. If something causes me to start over again, I'll definitely go with the write none before I go and then head on over and have a good vacation. Invariably I will likely meet someone worth knowing and take it from there.

I/O how much time do YOU think it will take and how many trips, before the VO approach will work? I guarantee I could suck you in and make you think you were writing a woman. I could get a woman to pretend to be in correspondence with you and you'd never know until you showed up. I could be the ultimate scammer if that was my inclination but its not. Men are often so easily duped it is pathetic and it is almost always the men writing AND sending money before they meet!

I am glad you were successful. As I've said many times there is no one way to do this. Whatever works for you works for you. All too often people look at this more emotionally than pragmatically.

I think in general it is harder for AM than men from Europe. The distances involved are greater and so are the costs. Additionally AM often get less vacation time than their European counterparts. It is easy to pop in for a weekend trip to visit a RW whereas I have a minimum of 16 hours flight time at best. I lose 2 days to travel every time I go assumig I don't go to someplace like Siberia where I lose a total of 4!

As a result I do what I can to have the most useful time in country I have. Thankfully I have far more vacation than the average American so if I make a mistake I can get back fairly easily. This year I'll likely travel to the FSU for a total of about 8 weeks. It gives me options that many Americans don't have.

[I/O]

I/O how much time do YOU think it will take and how many trips, before the VO approach will work?

How long is a piece of string? How long and how many trips before the VM approach works? Any answer to either is speculation.

I guarantee I could suck you in and make you think you were writing a woman.

You make some outlandish calls. Several tried and failed.

Men are often so easily duped it is pathetic and it is almost always the men writing AND sending money before they meet!

Agreed.

I think in general it is harder for AM than men from Europe. The distances involved are greater and so are the costs.

Americans have it simple compared to Aus for example. From what I've seen the travel time and costs for us are roughly twice that of Americans.

I lose 2 days to travel every time I go assumig I don't go to someplace like Siberia where I lose a total of 4!

You're killen' me, that's standard issue for us.

Additionally AM often get less vacation time than their European counterparts.

This is one reason I've thought many should reconsider. I simply can't see how one can build relationships, VO or VM with a couple of weeks per year. I guess they do but I would never try to condense such an important matter into such a time frame.

As a result I do what I can to have the most useful time in country I have.

And......you and I will never agree on the most efficient use of that time. Thus I continue to raise counter point to the VM routine because there IS people whom it doesn't suit for one reason or other.

I/O

[msmoby_ru]

I doubt few will change their mind here.

Well if they listen to your advice - if not challenged -there'll be lots of ultimately disappointed guys!

I was originally in the camp of VO from the get go. I realized that is a flawed logic especially when I factor in the cost. Once I have found the woman I am really interested in then I'll visit only her.

Flawed logic, based on cost ?!  Matey, we need to analyse that statement and I believe you will see it's *your* logic that's flawed..!!

Let's try and be scientific.. its that possible?

What is a successful trip for you? I have a feeling we might differ on this - like you - the FSU interested me and I was interested in the history and to see the "hero cities". I'm able to combine business with this interest. But..Most guys come to find a woman, no ? Some regard meeting loads of women "successful", some "scoring in the sack", and some starting / building a relationship.... agreed?

As I'm sure you realised, I fell into the latter category - hence my WOVO outlook. It seems to me that guys in the other categories could be spending a lot more ..all those letters and phone calls to the ladies

For all you fans of extensive etter writing before you. How do you know it is the woman's words and not some others? This is my biggest issue with a woman before you meet her is how do you know she is real, her words honest, not a guy, etc.

Taz, YES.. a WOVO trip in this day and age having just written letters is CRAZY!.. but We're reminding you (AGAIN) that far more FSU women do have internet access - many with always on so WOVO trips just aren't the "leaps in the dark" you might have some believe...If the lady can communicate directly with you, she will try to help you circumvent any agency.

I feel "sorry" for ladies in regions of the FSU who can't afford / can't have always on internet access.  They are excluded from prompt responses / spontaneity and interactivity that can form a burgeoning relationship.  [/quote]

I have witnessed first hand some friends of mine (not romantic women friends but only friends) sit around together and answer the guys' letters they received. The guys thought they were individually writing just one woman but instead it was a collective answer from all the women. The guys sure loved the letters but it wasn't THE woman they were writing who answered them!

Another plus for the interactive WOVO route, then .. You'll not be getting on a plane to someone who you could call anytime and were certain she was a lady who existed and said who she said she was !!.. You and I know that multiple letter writers aren't specific and can't go into detail...and they make mistakes and omissions that raise "red flags"

I try to date as much as possible in the same manner I would here or they would there. I prefer more real and less virtual in my relationship thank you very much.

Fine.. words, but for those still courting,the ladies aren't just down the road, so dating "like home" rules don't apply..  I contend that the more guys do WMVM trips they "condition" FSU ladies to behave in the negative way in which some of you then condemn them... reaping what you sow, as they say?

[Faux Pas]

 

I agree with you that (sincere) people are hoping only that first trip is VM.  I’m not arguing against VO for a first trip, it’s just something one has to decide for himself.  Before I actually went, I would not have considered visiting many myself.  But my impression was that most VOs actually don’t work out (just as most first dates don’t).  Which would mean multiple first-time VOs.  Either way, you’re seeing multiple ladies, it’s just a question of whether you go in series or in parallel. 

Good for you! I hope it works out the way you hope. myrddin, I didn't get the impression that most VOs didn't work out. There are obviously some pretty horrific war stories concerning VOs but there are just as many VMs stories as well. There are many happily married couples that were one shot VO wonders and I'm sure just as many VM. Just from my observation and the way I have waded the waters thus far, I honestly think with some time, patience and due diligence relationships can be formed through letters, phone calls and internet. Love relationships? Absolutely not but enough to know if this is a woman that is a potential successful first meeting with a high percentage of success.

I'm confident this is also achieved by VM. Personally I'd rather do my pre qualifying before I travel which is what I did rather than endless dates in an agency. It is a matter of preference and to each his own I say.

[WmGO]

Call me Mr. Wuss! ... 

The "wuss" comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular.
So if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.    Then again, down
South we have a saying:  " stuck pig squeals loudest."   

[groovlstk]

There are many happily married couples that were one shot VO wonders and I'm sure just as many VM.

I have no stats to back up my claim, but I don't believe this is true. One measure may be that guys are a lot more reluctant to do TRs when they VO and it goes belly up, so you don't read about it. A guy who does a failed VM trip in most cases won't even consider it a failure - by dating multiple women he brings back more in the way of understanding and experience and feels he has more to share w/the community by doing a report. [At least this was my rationale when I didn't bother doing TRs for my VO trips but always did TRs for my VM trips.]

 

[steviej]

I was more the "write few" "visit one" type (although I actually visited 2). What would that be? WFVO? Of course initially, I had to write many letters to see if/who would be the most interested and strongest candidates to go further with me. But fairly quickly, I was down to 3-4 ladies for serious correspondence. I think in my case, what made a huge difference was telephone calls, daily, in English. I had decided that, for my needs, attitudes and circumstances, I needed a woman who spoke very good English. I'm a rather verbal guy. If I was going to visit women who needed interpreters, I think I would more favor the WMVM approach. My job situation is such that I could spend a long time on the phone, daily, with these few women. And we wrote letters. Being quite a bit of a Cyrano myself, I did develop very close relations, emotionally, with these 3 women. No question about it. And obviously, there was no way for there to be any kind of conspiracy or fake responses involved. (Like the example of a team of women cooperating on a letter response.)

So, I think your job situation, your language requirements, and again your personality and style, should determine your approach. I can tell from msmoby_ru responses that our attitudes and experiences in this are similar. I think the WOVO guys can and will find the corrsponding girl and be happy. I think the WMVM guys will find a different set of girls, and again, will be able to find the absolutely right girl for them, and be happy. The danger seems to be when guys move too quickly, in either MO, to marriage. I felt that I knew my wife-to-be already very very well before we even met in person the first time. And it was a correct assumption - there were no surprises. Everything was as I expected it to be, and she was so much more wonderful than even I imagined. But even so, I did not just visit one week and then get a fiance visa and get married. It was after my third visit, where we had spent a total of 5-6 weeks together, and continued our daily long phone calls in bewteen, that I "officially" asked her to marry me and started the fiance visa process. I had met and stayed with all her relatives by that point as well. That was 6 months after our first visit. And then, we spent another 10 months or so trying to get that d**ned visa ! And during that time, more visits, more phone calls, more relationship building, etc. Although during that time, we were much more tortured about not being able to be together daily, and just sweating the days and minutes until we could be.

In conclusion, I think if you are honest with yourself, your needs, your style of establishing relationships, you can find a wonderful woman who is "your type" in the FSU and have a great marriage, no matter what your MO, if it is truly your MO. The important point I would stress is that no matter what method you use, when you feel you've found "the one", don't just immediately get the fiance visa and get married. It's OK to go a little slower and let the relationship develop more. IMHO.

[Turboguy]

I have no stats to back up my claim, but I don't believe this is true. One measure may be that guys are a lot more reluctant to do TRs when they VO and it goes belly up, so you don't read about it. A guy who does a failed VM trip in most cases won't even consider it a failure - by dating multiple women he brings back more in the way of understanding and experience and feels he has more to share w/the community by doing a report. [At least this was my rationale when I didn't bother doing TRs for my VO trips but always did TRs for my VM trips.]

I think you make a very good point here Groov.   I talked about a number of my trips on RWD once I found RWD.   The most disastrous trip I ever had started to be a VM and turned into a VO.  I never mentioned a thing about it on RWD.   Part of that was for another reason but I do think failed VO's tend to be kept quiet.

Frankly I think Jack's comment about a very small percentage of people meeting for the first time will come away feeling that they are right for each other is very true.   Yes, someone can do a VO and those people turn out to be the one out of 5 or 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 20 that click.  Maybe it was their first trip.  Perhaps had they done it 19 more times they would have had the next 19 be failures.

I always found it uncomfortable with you have committed yourself to a week with a lady and you know it is not working out.  It is awkward to move on and awkward to waste the days.   

I think too there are various versions of VM.   Some guys will spend 2 weeks meeting 2,3,4 or 5 women a day.  I always preferred a vm but spending 2,3,4 or 5 days with someone then going to the next.  Usually the more positive my vibes the longer I would stay.   I usually told them I was going to make a short trip and spend 2 or 3 days with them and come back quickly for a longer visit soon if it worked out.  I really never had women get upset with that and few ever asked if I was meeting other women.   Yes, I can imagine some women would not get too excited if you made plans to spend an hour or two getting to know them.  It is obvious that it will be a crap shoot and that they are probably wasting their time.

[steviej]

Interesting point about not reporting the failed VO attempts. Maybe there is some "suffering in silence" going on  there. Maybe the disappointment feels a little too personal to broadcast. I think in the VM scenario, a guy may feel he's got some fun and interesting things to related one way or the other, no matter how it works out with any particular lady. Perhaps a guy who strongly believes he is on his way to meet his one and only soulmate, and then comes crashing down, withdraws from it all. On the other hand, a VO guy who is too carried away with his own romantic dreams may not be ready for all this, in a way. He may be seeing into himself much more than he's seeing into the lady, or ladies, he's interested in. You do have to have your eyes open in this quest.

[Gator]

I had dozens of penpals and all were eventually discarded except ONE.  After 50+ letters between us, it was as clear as a day that we've become very good friends.  To take a step further and meet in person, exclusively, was natural and practically risk-free.

Ambach, send Blues Fairy some flowers.  How to select the one for you?   Easy, the one who becomes your friend.  Friends trust each other, respect each other, have fun together, even have a good time doing nothing, support each other in troubled waters, solve problems together, make viable life plans, etc.  There are no better traits.

Blues Fairy discovered these qualities in her man via extended correspondence.  You can do the same via WMVM method IF you spend enough time together.

This approach conflicts, however, with what you wrote:

I will come back and then think this over carefully. I would return to meet selected few or the one.

I can't be too optimistic, but the whole thing may not take more than a few months from start to K-1. That gives you 90 days to decide to marry after her arrival.

It seems that you are on a fast track schedule with a deadline.  So wrong!  You need to take as much time as it takes. 

BTW, the 90 days is not to ponder whether she is the one.  For three reasons, that decision needs to be made before she applies for a visa.

- The CO may determine that she is not a bonafide fiancee. 

-  If you do send her packing, you must wait 18 months (or so?) before applying again.

-  That is no way to treat a human, as if they are a commodity with no feelings. 

[steviej]

-  That is no way to treat a human, as if they are a commodity with no feelings. 

Amen, brother Gator! 

[Gator]

I am up to 15 women in Kiev and the outskirts.

There is no safety in numbers, only confusion.  15 is too many.  Eliminate the supernumeraries and learn more about a select few.

[ambach123]

Gator you give good advise.

Thanks.

[msmoby_ru]

...referring to a WOVO man who's quite happy to answer reasonable questions from someone before meeting..

That about sums it up. Or the man can just be a wuss and commit
himself to jumping through her hoops.......

...Happily married WOVO man comments - "call me a Wuss, then"...

[/quote]

The "wuss" comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular.
So if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.    Then again, down
South we have a saying:  " stuck pig squeals loudest."   

Hmm, your comments suggest otherwise.. and *you* certainly ain't a good judge of shoe sizes ...

Have a good one



 

[Gator]

msroby_ru,

The points and counterpoints about WOVO vs. WMVM have been presented here well, and I consider your opinions to be valid.

I still wonder how romantic WOVO men become over the telephone before making that first trip.  The strongest I would ever say  is something like, "I think about you every day, wondering if you are indeed a dream come true."  Nothing about holding her in my arms, she has given me a new outlook towards life, etc. 

A few RW in correspondence started to use words such as  darling, only you, romantic meeting, etc. and it made me back up.  Too soon!  During one moment of weakness, I went forward and she became the week from hell.  The hotel had made a double bed from two singles, and I pushed them apart on Day Three.  It was a prime example of my fundamental nature that I rather be alone than be with the wrong one.

So how far does a WOVO man go along the path of romance before making the trip?   If not far, what motivates them?  Care to enlighten me.

[Shadow]

Gator, let me as WFVO man answer...
I have made a number of WOVO trips before I even knew about the FSU. Mostly it was just 'taking a chance' on meeting. Being very level-headed by nature might have helped, although that natural distance also did work to my disadvantage sometimes.
The trick is that while making the trip giving attention to one person only, this does not mean that the outcome of the trip has to be engagement or a fight. The same amount on realism has to go in to the meeting, only the time you can spend on exploring is different.

[msmoby_ru]

I still wonder how romantic WOVO men become over the telephone before making that first trip.  The strongest I would ever say  is something like, "I think about you every day, wondering if you are indeed a dream come true."  Nothing about holding her in my arms, she has given me a new outlook towards life, etc.

Gator, I'm sure you really do realise I don't advocate choosing only one woman to write to, promise her the earth, tell her "I Love you" and then meet and "all our dreams come true".. I agree with your boundaries on how far you should go/ say..  I will admit saying on the phone, that I had a good feeling, an intuition, and hoped if we could meet it would be fulfilled ! This wasn't BS and she knew it.
 

So how far does a WOVO man go along the path of romance before making the trip?   If not far, what motivates them?  Care to enlighten me.

Why do *you* need to know ? :-o   Aren't you married ?!!

*I* certainly wouldn't be booking a hotel where we'd be staying together ( single beds, or not). An apartment with separate Bedrooms, at the very most... FAR better to meet on home territory for one of you... you can both cook, wash up and may be see how your "intended" partner looks in the morning !!

My circumstances were pretty unusual, as I live in a Country were Russian speakers holiday, live and work and, despite being an EU country - Visas are EASY to get and cost €10 ($15).. and I was visiting the FSU for business. I also had plenty of time to research, lots of advice from FSU women ( looking for WM), and I work with Russian speakers on a daily basis.. helped with translations, learning Russian and customs/ culture.

When I chose "the one" I invited HER to come to ME....  I broke most of the rules... everyone thought we were crazy..  like I said.. we had a good feeling and we pretty much knew each others weaknesses and strengths.

In this way, my lady saw how I lived !!! I wasn't a "stranger" and she saw many FSU folk and didn't feel a stranger, either.

I wonder why more WM don't try to take holidays with FSU women they are very interested in, in countries were Visas are easy to get.. rent an apartment .. get to know each other.. BEFORE applying for Visas to bring them to USA/ UK / Canada / Oz, etc.

Sure, a holiday doesn't deal with "hard-times", but you'll sure as hell get to know each other, and it will be easier to get a visa, if you both decide to move forward. you don't have to spend a fortune. Package deals from FSU to Thailand ( northern Hemisphere Winter)  Egypt, Turkey, etc are very reasonable and mostly all inclusive.

HAha, as I finish this.. Russia just kicked out Greece ( the current European Champions of Football [the real one]) ..  First England, now Greece... GO Russia ))))

So if this letter seems disjointed, please forgive me

[dispozo]

I did a WOVO.......

We wrote each other for almost six months, before I started talking about visiting her. By this time I feel we had become good friends and was very interested in seeing if we could be more then friends. We decide on a date to visit, my plan was to go visit her as a friend and to see what happens.  For the next couple of months we wrote more letters and started to talk on the phone a little.  We also started to chat online and I found myself spending more and more time chatting online on the weekends.  We started to open up more to each other, about our lives and what we were looking for in our future. It was in this time when we both wanted to see more from our friendship.......

So after eight months we finally met in person!!!!  It was a very very successful trip.....

I believe it was successful, because we both were not in any rush. We took our time and really got to know each other.

Since our trip we have add skype to our communication and this has been the greatest thing ever!!!!! We talk and see each almost everyday. I think if we started with skype sooner, we would of not waited as long to met.

Like many have said, everyone is different. As long as it ends with a happy ending does it really matter if it was a WOVO or WMVM......

[ScottinCrimea]

During one moment of weakness, I went forward and she became the week from hell.  The hotel had made a double bed from two singles, and I pushed them apart on Day Three. 

This was a self-created problem, assuming you would happily share the same bed for a week with a woman you hardly knew.  With a two bedroom apartment, all you need to do if it goes bad is just close the door.  Heck, even knowing my wife for so long I've still spent a few nights on the couch.    But then that's a topic for another thread.

[Pike]

But my impression was that most VOs actually don’t work out (just as most first dates don’t).  Which would mean multiple first-time VOs.  Either way, you're seeing multiple ladies, it’s just a question of whether you go in series or in parallel. 

Very astute point, and  one which seems to escape many here.

To elaborate and demonstrate the silliness:

You go on a VO  and it doesn't work out.  So you go on more VOs.  But each of the gals could complain that if things don't work out with them, you will go on to meet more gals . . . albeit on subsequent trips.

So what difference does it make if you meet the subsequent gals on days 2-3 or on weeks 2-3 or on months 2-3?

[Pike]

after the . . . , sex.. when he gets what he wants, . . .

So are you implying that women do not like sex??

[Ooooops]

So what difference does it make if you meet the subsequent gals on days 2-3 or on weeks 2-3 or on months 2-3?

The only difference will be what those girls would think about you, that's all.   

[ScottinCrimea]

It reflects the importance you place on that one woman at that point in time.