FSU misconception

[jb]

I am contemplating taking her with me to see my CPA who is very good at explaining these things.

Even to someone without a decent grasp of English?  Your expectations of this man amaze me.

[KenC]

jb,

Clyde still doesn't "get it" in many ways.  He doesn't understand that it is his responsibility to explain things to his future wife.  He would rather delegate the responsibility via a translation of a post here or having a CPA explain budgeting.  The CPA hand off is particularly funny to me.  Most CPA's I have worked with speak a language that is difficult to understand even if your native language is English.  Rather than simplifying things, he chooses to complicate them.  Whatever.  He will be posting later about his financial problems because she doesn't understand.

KenC

[jb]

Ken,

I hear ya, lawyers and CPA's speak a whole 'nother language.  :cool::cool:

[Rvrwind]

Well I guess I can't say as I have the same problem as you blokes!:shock:

My wife won't spend the damn money.... She has had a toothache on & off for the past two months & I keep telling her to go to the dentist, the money is there. (we keep a little each payday for saving) She won't go, she says she is saving for fall coats we both need.

Now her cell phone packed in & she needs a new one, but the fall coats are more important & the tooth can wait. Sheeeeesh!!!

I'm at my wits end trying to get her to use the money to fix that dang tooth. I figure that is more important than a damn coat! :?If I knew where her dentist was I'd hog ty her and throw her over my shoulder kickin' & screaming all the way to the dentists office.

Don't know why you guy's got women who like to spend but mine sure don't.

RVR

Canadian Cowboy

[KenC]

RVR,

You bring up another thought.  Wait until Mrs. Clyde & Junior start having their teeth fixed at the dentist.  If he thinks his expenditures were big before, just wait.

KenC

[Seekandfind]

lol...elen, u crack me up, please don´t ever leave this forum...:D:D

[ConnerVT]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

Elen, food for thought:  It is easy to spend other people's money.  People only save money they feel is their own.

Conner, I am going to make a copy of this statement and put it where it is always in full view. It is for me to read every day.

 

Then you also need the explaination of what it means, as I fear it went right over your head.  Until a woman stops looking at the $$$ as your money, and starts looking at it as our money, you can expect her to spend it much more freely.

Personally, I don't care where your money goes, unless you plan on sending some to me.

[Son of Clyde]

She may not see it as our money until she gets a job. Then I can ask her if I can borrow a few dollars until payday. She may understand that.

[Seekandfind]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

She may not see it as our money until she gets a job. Then I can ask her if I can borrow a few dollars until payday. She may understand that.

Clyde, you´re screwed.

[PeeWee]

Sounds to me like that it would be a good idea to start your girl in the USA on cash, which she understands.  Gradually, introduce her to credit...

Why? Russians are quickly becoming sophisticated about credit. There is lots of credit available now in Moscow. I do not like our credit system and I much admire the Russians ability to pay cash and to not have debt. My lady friend is going to buy a car soon and it was surprising to me to hear her tell me that she was going to get a loan to buy it because in the past she has paid cash for her cars and for everything else. She is highly responsible with her credit cards and pays the balance in full each month. I can't claim that for myself.

PeeWee

[PeeWee]

I am contemplating taking her with me to see my CPA who is very good at explaining these things.

Even to someone without a decent grasp of English? Your expectations of this man amaze me.[/quote]
I agree with, jb. If she does not speak English how will she understand an accountant. To discuss money with a Russian is a difficult thing to do. The concept of how to spend it and why to spend it seems so different between Western and Eastern ideals.

My lady, while she knows that I have several nice cars, two homes, etc asked me today if I had enough money to pay for the cab from my hotel in Moscow to the Airport. She appologized for not being able to take me herself. Another time I was telling her about a fishing trip that I had taken. I thought that she would enjoy hearing of my adventure. She listened alright but hen said, "PeeWee, you do not have enough money for food i will send you money for food." Another time I was telling her about a car that my company was going to give me. A PT Crusier. To which she said, "PeeWee, this is not a good car for you. I will buy you a good car."

So you see the concept is different. To expect an American account to explain to a RW why our system of money will work for her may just backfire on you. Why riskthat? Better to teach her and let her discover for herself. I have read others who claim great knowedge state, "They will become Amerianized very quickly." If so then why force the money issue?

 

PeeWee

[Son of Clyde]

Maybe it is a stupid idea. I was going to take our interpreter along too. The interpreter has been here for 4 years and has tried to tell Iryna about how things work here. Her line was that Iryna was thinking like a woman.

[PeeWee]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

Maybe it is a stupid idea. I was going to take our interpreter along too. The interpreter has been here for 4 years and has tried to tell Iryna about how things work here. Her line was that Iryna was thinking like a woman.

Clyde, you try so hard to do it right. I am watching your progress and I think that it is important that you are maintaining an open dialog with us on this. If I were you, I would just let it be for now. If she truely wants to join the team, your team, then she will learn it for herself. Good coaching from you and some patience. I have learned that the money arena is the one arena that I do not want to enter with a RW. Look at all the trouble I got into while I was in Moscow. And that was just simple stuff. how am I going to explain anything more complex to my lady? She is going to have to come in a lock and load mentality with regard spending and budget when she steps foot US soil.

 

PeeWee

[ConnerVT]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

She may not see it as our money until she gets a job. Then I can ask her if I can borrow a few dollars until payday. She may understand that.

This is how we differ.  My wife was fiscally responsible with my money before I asked her to marry me.  She knew that if we were to marry, it would be our money.  Now I need to check with her before I decide to buy something on impulse.

[Admin]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

Maybe it is a stupid idea. I was going to take our interpreter along too. The interpreter has been here for 4 years and has tried to tell Iryna about how things work here. Her line was that Iryna was thinking like a woman.

SOC,

Here is a couple of 'lessons' prepared by a friend of mine from Calgary (Del, for those who remember him from P-L). It is in both English (for you) and Russian (for her). While not comprehensive, at least it should give her some small inkling of the differences - and hopefully, inspire some serious conversation between you guys. Here is it:

Lesson 1

The concept of 'disposable income' is very important. One earns "income" from one's work, or from some other sources such as "interest" or "dividends". These last two sources are where one's 'money' is working for him or her. In North American, 'income' is taxed (to pay for all the government activities). Then, one has expenses (fixed and variable) that one must expend funds on in order to live. After one's 'living expenses' are addressed, the remaining balance can be called 'disposable income'.

In order to live, one has both 'fixed expenses' (such as housing,  utilities, insurance, etc.), and 'variable expenses' (such as food, clothing, entertainment, etc.). Both these expenses are effected by the level of
'income'. If one's 'expenses' total more than one's income (minus the taxes one must pay), the result is 'debt'. You can readily understand that it is unwise to expend more than one receives as income (after taxes are deducted). You can also see that if one manages the 'fixed' expense carefully, there is more left for the 'variable' expenses. The amount not used to cover the fixed and variable expenses, then becomes 'disposable income'.

Disposable income might be called 'discretionary income', because one has choices in the usage of these funds. One can spend these funds for entertainment, travelling or such, or, one can save a portion of these and build up a 'nest egg'. One can also save some of these and 'invest' them - then these invested funds begin to 'work' for the 'investor', earning interest or dividends.

Very few people in North America have large 'disposable' incomes. Most people will increase their fixed and variable expenses as their own income increases. They will purchase a larger house, eat differently (maybe eat out more often), buy a newer or larger car, and such. Very few North Americans
have 'disposable incomes' of $1,000 or more per month! Most actually live from "paycheck to paycheck" - that is, they have no 'emergency reserves'. Many have a large 'debt load', and when one has 'debt', one must pay interest on this debt (another 'fixed expense').

For example, one recent survey in Canada showed that the statistical average for 'disposable' income was just under $280.00 per month. This means that the average Canadian family had this amount left from income, after taking away taxes, fixed expenses and the average of their variable expenses. As
you can see, most often, the expenses side increases as the income side increases.

Lesson 2

The average industrial wage in North America is $36,000 per year. ($3,000.00 per month). The average taxes for a couple with two children is 24% or $720.00 per month. When these taxes are deducted (they are mostly withheld by one's employer), one has only $2,280.00 as "take home" income.

A couple can rent an apartment or house, or, they can 'buy' a condominium or house. There is a big difference between here in North America and there in the Ukraine, because when a couple 'buy' a house or condominium in North America, they will usually take out a "mortgage". This means that they finance the difference between their 'downpayment' (usually around 10% for the first home) and the full price of their purchase, and this amount financed is to be repaid over 25 or 30 years, with finance charges added to the amount financed! The amount that must be repaid every month (the "mortgage payment") is a part of what I call 'fixed expense'. Added to this is the property taxes, the electrical, gas, and other utility costs (such as water and sewer), and telephone (excluding long distance charges) and
Cable costs. Most rental properties do not include utilities costs with the rental, therefore one must allow for these, too.

These "housing costs" amount to an average of 30% of gross income (30% of $3,000.00) per month, or some $900.00 per month. When we take this away from the "take home pay", we see that only $1,380.00 is left!

Now we look to what I term 'variable expenses". From this $1,380.00, the costs for "transportation" must be deducted. With very few exceptions (and excluding the middle of large cities) you will find the 'public transportation' in North America is very poor compared with what you are used to. Most people are almost 'forced' to buy and operate vehicles, here. The average vehicle owning and operating costs are about $600.00 to $700.00 per month. So, we now see that there is only $780.00 per month left if We use the lower figure.

From this $780.00 per month, our couple must purchase 'groceries'  (which, for most also includes cleaning supplies, basic self-care items and such). This can easily be between $400.00 and $500.00 a month for a couple with two children! If we take the mid-point here, we then have only $330.00 left For such things as clothing and entertainment. As you know, it can be expensive to clothe two growing children. Now, I think you can appreciate what I was saying in Lesson 1, when I said that most folks do not have a 'high level' of disposable income. For many, even being able to 'save' $100.00 a month is a struggle.

Also, when one's wages go up, most people's 'expenses' are increased as well. This is 'the American Dream'. The consumer is subjected to a  barrage of 'marketing' and 'advertising' to convince them they "need" things. The economy grows and some people benefit, while the average worker is kept in a position where he/she must work in order to simply 'exist', even if they hate their jobs!

It is almost 'heresy' to suggest that people 'scale back' their 'wants' and 'needs' so that they can 'get ahead'. Those who fully understand the 'system' and are able to make it work for them, instead of against
them, are much better off in the longer run. This takes an understanding and a willingness to 'buck the system', and most can't or won't be 'bothered'. Therefore, most are 'slaves' to the system! And, living in what I call a "hand-to-mouth" lifestyle.

For most who have family Overseas, a trip to visit "the family' is limited to one trip every two or three years (and this, after much 'scrimping and saving'.)

It's not all 'doom and gloom', however. If one understands 'the system', and is willing to make the necessary "sacrifices', one can 'break free' and then become more independent - it does however, take a good knowledge of the system and a lot of hard work, as well as self-discipline.
Урок 1.
Концепция «чистого дохода» очень важна. Человек получает доход в результате своей работы, или из других источников, таких как «проценты» или дивиденды. Эти два источника имеют место, когда деньги работают на него нее. В северной Америке доход облагается налогами (для оплаты деятельности правительства). Потом, у каждого есть свои расходы (установленные и изменяющиеся), человек должен расходовать деньги дабы продолжать жить. После того как все расходы учтены, оставшееся часть называется «чистый доход». Чтобы жить человек устанавливает четкие расходы (такие как оплата за дом и теплоснабжение, водоснабжение, страховки и т.д.), и изменяющиеся расходы ( питание, одежда, развлечение и т.д.). Оба этих вида расходов находятся под влиянием уровня доходов. Если расходы в общем больше чем доходы (минус налоги), результат «долг». Вы должны понимать, что это неразумно тратить больше чем зарабатываешь (после вычитания налогов). Вы так же можете заметить, что чем более разумно человек устраивает (организовывает) свои «установленные расходы», тем больше денег ему остается на «изменяющиеся расходы». Сумма, которая не используется для покрытия «фиксированных затрат» и «нефиксированных затрат», называется «чистый доход». Чистый доход может называться разграниченный доход потому, что у человека есть выбор как распорядиться этими деньгами. Человек может распорядиться этими деньгами как пожелает развлечения, путешествия, может оставить часть суммы на постройку «гнезда». Человек также может инвестировать эти деньги - тогда, деньги начинают работать на инвестора, приносить дивиденды. Очень немного людей в Северной Америке получают чистый доход. Большинство людей повышают свои «фиксированные затраты» и «нефиксированные затраты» по мере возрастания своего дохода. Они покупают больший дом, более разнообразно питаются, покупают более новую и большую машину, и т.д. Очень немного Северных Американцев получают «чистый доход» более чем 1000 долларов в месяц. Большинство живут «от счета до счета», что означает, что у них нет резервов на непредвиденные расходы. У многих людей очень большой долг, и когда у человека есть долг, то он выплачивает проценты по долгу (еще один фиксированный расход). Например одно недавнее исследование в Канаде показало, что средний «чистый доход» составляет примерно 280 долларов в месяц. Это означает, что это та сумма, которая остается у семьи после всех расходов. Как вы успели заметить расходы растут параллельно доходам.

Урок 2.
Средняя зарплата в Северной Америке составляет 36000 долларов в год (3000 долларов в месяц). Средний налог на семью, с двумя детьми составляет 24% или 720 долларов в месяц. Когда все эти налоги уплачены (обычно они удерживаются работодателем), у человека остается всего 2 280 долларов как домашний доход. Люди могут снимать квартиру или купить дом. Существует большая разница между Украиной и Северной Америкой потому, что, когда пара покупает дом в Северной Америке, они обычно берут закладную. Это означает, что они выплачивают разницу между первым платежом (обычно 10% за первый дом) и полной стоимостью их покупки, а эта часть должна быть выплачена на протяжении 25-30 лет, и к этой сумме прибавляются все остальные расходы. Сумма, которую нужно выплачивать каждый месяц это то, что я назвал часть «фиксированных расходов». К этим добавляются налоги на недвижимость, электричество, гас, и за другие услуги (воду и канализацию), телефон (не включая междугородние звонки), и стоимость всей проводки. Большинство недвижимости, которая сдается в наем не включает все эти расходы, но их нужно предусмотреть. Эти расходы на услуги составляют около 30% (30% от 3000) в месяц, или около 900 в месяц. Когда мы вычитаем это из всех уплат за дом, остается 1380 долларов! Теперь мы взглянем на то, что я называю «нефиксированные затраты». Из этих 1380 долларов нужно исключить все расходы на транспорт. Со всеми исключениями (исключая большие и средние города), вы заметите, что общественный транспорт в Северной Америке очень отличается от того к  чему вы привыкли. Большинство людей вынуждены покупать машины. Средний автомобиль в эксплуатации стоит от 600 до 700 долларов . Теперь у нас остается 780 долларов, если мы живем по минимуму. На эти 780 пара должна покупать питание, и средства гигиены. Это в среднем составляет 400-500 долларов на семью с двумя детьми.  Если подсчитаем на этом этапе, то увидим, что остается у нас всего 330 долларов, на такие вещи как одежда и развлечения. Теперь я думаю, что вы понимаете, что я имел ввиду, когда в Уроке 1 говорил, что большинство людей не имеет высоких чистых доходов. Для многих сэкономить 100 долларов в месяц это тяжело. Также, когда повышается зарплата, тогда повышаются и расходы. Это и есть «Американская Мечта». Покупатель подвергается разным маркетинговым исследованиям и рекламным трюкам, чтобы его убедили, что он должен купить что-то. Экономика развивается, некоторые люди зарабатывают, а обычные рабочие поставлены в условия, когда он/она должна работать, чтобы просто существовать, даже если они ненавидят свои работы! Это почти ересь утверждать, что люди должны отбросить свои нужды и желания дабы пробиться в перед. Те, кто полностью понимают систему и заставляют ее работать на них, а не против них, добиваются больших результатов на длительном промежутке времени. Это включает в себя понимание и желание испытывать систему, большинство не хотят или не могут этого сделать. Таким образом большинство являются рабами системы. И живут по принципу, который я называю «ничего не слышу, ничего не вижу и т.д.». Для тех у кого есть семьи вне страны, поездка для встречи с семьей может быть осуществлена раз в 2-3 года. Но не все так печально. Если вы понимаете систему, и хотите совершить определенные жертвы, вы сможете пробиться и стать более независимым - это требует безупречного знания системы, большого количества упорного труда, и самоди

[KenC]

Dan,

Very good post.  I have referenced this post many times, but I never could remember just who originated it.

KenC

[Michelangelo]

Dan,

Very good post.  I have referenced this post many times, but I never could remember just who originated it.

KenC

I agree!  I think you must have hooked into an economics professor, Dan

[Admin]

I agree! I think you must have hooked into an economics professor, Dan

Actually, Del worked for many years as a senior manager of contracts. Smart guy - and extraordinarily big-hearted. He had a TERRIBLE experience with a woman from Ukraine and her two daughters. I don't think he ever fully-recovered.

- Dan

[Elen]

Poor Americans:? You should print those Lesson1 and Lesson 2 and show them to your girls BEFORE starting K1 but not  fuzz girl's brains with fairy tales about American paradise and FSU hell:P

 

Wonder anybody of you did such calculations for your girls?? Or you still think that girl should "guess" by herself how much you have FREE money per month by photo of your car and house ( which you yet owe money for to bank)?

[Admin]

Poor Americans:?You shouldprint those Lesson1 and Lesson 2 and showthem to your girls BEFORE starting K1 but not fuzzgirl's brains with fairy tales about American paradise and FSU hell:P



Wonder anybody of you did such calculations foryour girls?? Or you still think that girl should "guess" by herself how much you have FREE money per month by photo of your car and house ( which you yet owe money for to bank)?

Elen, your message implies that you are making the ASSumption that this information is NOT shared with the girls PRIOR to starting the K-1. Why do you make that ASSumption?

In point of fact, this information has been posted (by me) on internet boards for several years - and usually for the benefit of guys wanting to communicate this information to their love-interests PRIOR to them coming to America. Olya and I had this discussion VERY early in our relationship - and many other guys have done the same thing.

You need to STOP making rash negative ASSumptions about Western men looking for women in the FSU. There are some very definite misfits on BOTH sides (AM and RW) - but there are also some VERY decent and responsible human beings who simply seek (or found) their life-partner from another country. It is neither fair, nor accurate, to automatically presume the worst of anyone, and reflects more on the person making those rash negative ASSumptions than it does on the subject of the ASSumptions.

- Dan

[BC]

Elen, your message implies that you are making the ASSumption that this information is NOT shared with the girls PRIOR to starting the K-1. Why do you make that ASSumption?

Dan,

In all fairness some here have openly admitted not having explained much at all re financial situation before doing the K1. Have seen similar crop up from time to time on other boards as well. If we consider less than 1% of RW seekers actively post and of those a visible number end up saying 'well she didn't ask'.. it's likely just the tip of the iceberg.

The range of interested men goes from peniless keyboard romeo to lonely millionaires.  The romeo's are harmless as they will never make it there, the millionaires have no problem supporting the venture but the rest are somewhere in-between with many overestimating their resources rationalizing that FSU is cheap.  It's the bang for the buck factor that is the primary draw.

It's more common than one might think.. and makes it especially hard after being able to play 'king' in FSU maxing out the cards.

[andrewfi]

Strange little point. If the figures given in the post above, in respect of disposable income, are correct, then there are a fair few women with disposable incomes that, in absolute terms, exceed that of the average figure given for North America. When one factors in lower overal prices for many items of discretionary consumption then people over here look even less poor.

I can not imagine what I would do if I did not have free cash of around 250 Euro per week and I do not feel rich. But, on the other hand, I have no personal debt, I have the 'toys' I need and do not buy anything for which I do not have the free cash.

Given this, I can begin to understand, for example, Clyde's problem with his computer, bed sheets etc. For me, I would just pop out and buy them. The next week, I might not go out so much, or eat more pasta, but life would go on. From what I read, it seems that for Americans this is a big issue. It also clarifies why women have difficulties. To put this into context. My girlfriend has just returned from two weeks holiday in Turkey. She went last year but this year she went to a nicer place, more expensive and more Europeans, less Russians... She says the Russian places are cheaper but the service is poorer. She also owns her own home, raises her two kids and even without me can afford to go out from time to time. Her monthly income? About 450 Euro. She, like me owes no money and buys only that which she can afford. If she wants it, she buys it, albeit that she might wait a week or two, to save up. Her disposable income, in real terms is probably not far different to that of many Americans. WOW... So, how is Mr Average American going to make her happy then eh?

[RacerX]

I find this analysis of AM incomes to be rather comical - here (on this board) we have guys who are chasing classy women literally half way around the world but when she comes ashore, they find the need to lecture her about how the typical AM has only $1K per month of disposable income!!

Seems what we need is a "truth in lending (or should that be borrowing!) law" BEFORE you can apply for a K-1 visa.  Any guy who doesn't have a disposable income of at least $4-5K/month has ventured into dangerous waters as he tackles a jet setter lifestyle.  Along with frequent, high-buck international trips, he will probably have to engage in extensive re-modeling of the bachelor pad, a  marriage, honeymoon, medical bills (read:dentist), new wardrobe for the wifey and kids, and so on....

For those with less $$$, might I recommend the domestic version, where a meager wage might cut it.

[Admin]

I find this analysis of AM incomes to be rather comical - here (on this board) we have guys who are chasing classy women literally half way around the world but when she comes ashore, they find the need to lecture her about how the typical AM has only $1K per month of disposable income!!

Seems what we need is a "truth in lending (or should that be borrowing!) law" BEFORE you can apply for a K-1 visa.  Any guy who doesn't have a disposable income of at least $4-5K/month has ventured into dangerous waters as he tackles a jet setter lifestyle.  Along with frequent, high-buck international trips, he will probably have to engage in extensive re-modeling of the bachelor pad, a  marriage, honeymoon, medical bills (read:dentist), new wardrobe for the wifey and kids, and so on....

For those with less $$$, might I recommend the domestic version, where a meager wage might cut it.

Actually, the information I posted was written by a Canadian (a fellow NORTH-American, I guess), and it is possibly a little dated. I agree that the numbers seem a tad low, but I don't think they are terribly far off in terms of averages. In relative terms (income and expenses), they, at least, offer perspective - even if they are not totally correct in absolute terms.

- Dan

[KenC]

RacerX,

That is exactly what jb has been saying all along.

Dan,

Sorry, but I think Elen's post was appropriate.  I didn't ever break my income down the way Del's post suggests.  Of course marriage wasn't in the cards until after Lena was here "living the life" either.

Andrew,

I agree with your post and I too thought it was interesting how little desposable income was left over in the example.  However, you must also take into consideration that out of the "fixed expenses" comes a 3 bedroom home in the suburbs, a newer car or two and a household full of accumilated goods from over the years.  Not too many live the lifestyle that Clyde portrays here.

KenC