Abortion Issues

[Ooooops]

Police should act quickly in ANY ASSAULT case.

And?  Do they?   And do they sometime arrest the wrong person?

She can lie to me and say she is using some sort of birth control but purposely get pregnant and I'll still be responsible. So if I can be forced to support a child I didn't want, then I should also have a say in whether that same woman could abort our child.

If you don't want to have children - use condoms.   You can't rely on other people in such matters.   As for abortions - it's a very painful matter to too many women.   Man just can't relate to it in full. 

[Taz]

And?  Do they?   And do they sometime arrest the wrong person?

If you don't want to have children - use condoms.   You can't rely on other people in such matters.   As for abortions - it's a very painful matter to too many women.   Man just can't relate to it in full. 

Condoms don't always work. They can rupture. Have you ever heard the term "sperm bandit"?

You don't think it would be painful to me if a child I helped create is killed without my permission or input? Do ONLY women suffer emotional pain? I think not. I've lived through this and I never want to again. My partner and I agreed to have a child together. After several months of being pregnant she went off and had an abortion. Absolutely NOTHING I could do about it. We had agreed together to have a child. Then SHE changed her mind. Tell me how the laws are fair here?

[Ooooops]

Condoms don't always work. They can rupture. Have you ever heard the term "sperm bandit"?

Then abstinence is the next best solution if you want absolutely be sure not to father a child.   

 

Then SHE changed her mind. Tell me how the laws are fair here?

It's her body.   

[Taz]

It was OUR child. Part of it was from MY body. This whole my body argument is used whenever it is convenient for the woman. She can use it to extract financial compensation for a baby a man doesn't want or kill a baby whenever she wants but that he may want. I hoped that maybe you could see the hypocrisy here but apparently you can't.  The courts and laws are pretty biased against men. I used to think there was more balance than there actually is. After living through it, I see how screwed up it really is. Personally I am done with this topic.

FYI, if you understood sperm bandit, you wouldn't have suggested abstinence as an alternative. I've known of women who didn't have sex with a guy at all but try and use his sperm to get pregnant with anyway.

[Ooooops]

It was OUR child. Part of it was from MY body.

First of all it wasn't a child yet (you can tell that I'm pro-choice  ).  Second - all you did is had good time and donated a sperm.   She has to live with the consequences in case if you later change your mind.   

[Kuna]

Terrible stuff here Ooooops!

Based on your comments in the later part of this thread, I would make it mandatory reading for men who want to believe all FSUW are family orientated and have old fashioned values.

If you don't want to have children - use condoms.   You can't rely on other people in such matters.   As for abortions - it's a very painful matter to too many women.   Man just can't relate to it in full. 

Then abstinence is the next best solution if you want absolutely be sure not to father a child.   

It's her body.   

First of all it wasn't a child yet (you can tell that I'm pro-choice  ).  Second - all you did is had good time and donated a sperm.   She has to live with the consequences in case if you later change your mind.   

It's terrible.. it really is.  I think we should all leave our political opinions at the door but your recent posts should serve a HUGE warning to men that not all FSUW are as the agencies describe.

They are not all wonderful women...

They are not all "old fashioned"...

They do not all have "family values"...

...  and not all of them make wonderful partners.

We here about the scammers, cheat and liars in here from time to time, but there is another type of FSUW that many men would be best to avoid!



Let me bring my post back on topic...

Marrying some FSUW would indeed be a very risky business!   

[Jet]

...I would make it mandatory reading for men who want to believe all FSUW are family orientated and have old fashioned values.

... but your recent posts should serve a HUGE warning to men that not all FSUW are as the agencies describe.

' the hell you say?!?  an agency might be less than forthright about its ladies?!? they aren't all cookie-cutter replicas of June Cleaver ?!? I'M SHOCKED I TELL YA!  :hairraising:
STUNNED AND SHOCKED!

C'mon Kuna, this has been the subject of hundreds of discussions here, different people are going to have different views, and I for one would much rather hear an honest opposing view than a bunch of false cheerleading. You're not too happy with the remarks of Ooooops, guess it's a good thing you married Mrs. Kuna and not her (Mr. Ooooops is probably real happy about this too  )

Newer guys like Maxxum aren't going to be able to fully relate to the immigration problems Lil and I went through. I can't fully relate to the problems Taz or Maxx had. You can't relate to Ooooops' position. That's fine, but I have some trouble when I see some people trying to dictate how other people are supposed to feel about a topic of discussion. Make your points and present your best arguments as to why others might want to reconsider their position, but don't insinuate that they are somehow a bad or "risky" person simply because they hold an opposing viewpoint on a relatively general topic of discussion.

[Kuna]

' the hell you say?!?  an agency might be less than forthright about its ladies?!? they aren't all cookie-cutter replicas of June Cleaver ?!? I'M SHOCKED I TELL YA!  :hairraising:
STUNNED AND SHOCKED!

C'mon Kuna, this has been the subject of hundreds of discussions here, different people are going to have different views, and I for one would much rather hear an honest opposing view than a bunch of false cheerleading. You're not too happy with the remarks of Ooooops, guess it's a good thing you married Mrs. Kuna and not her (Mr. Ooooops is probably real happy about this too  )

Newer guys like Maxxum aren't going to be able to fully relate to the immigration problems Lil and I went through. I can't fully relate to the problems Taz or Maxx had. You can't relate to Ooooops' position. That's fine, but I have some trouble when I see some people trying to dictate how other people are supposed to feel about a topic of discussion. Make your points and present your best arguments as to why others might want to reconsider their position, but don't insinuate that they are somehow a bad or "risky" person simply because they hold an opposing viewpoint on a relatively general topic of discussion.

Jet,

You've misunderstood the intent behind my post... maybe it's my fault as I wrote a detailed response about some of the "foul things" (by my standards only) Oooops said but decided if she wants to spew her politically retarded views of certain things I can still choose NOT to enter the political argument - thus I deleted much of what I wrote.

(Political debate is not permitted in RWD is it???  I could think of few things more politically explosive than abortion.)

I would still prefer NOT to argue the politics of her feminist views - but would be happy to do so in an Anything Goes Thread if she'd like.

My point was more about the men that we still see come in quite frequently that are first introduced to RW by an agency scam or by an individual scammer.

I won't name him (because there's no need to embarrass him), but in very recent times we've seen another enter singing the same tune as that played by the agencies.  Some get it... some don't...  so, it's actually good that Ooops and others like her come to post their opinions... 

That also doesn't mean that we have to accept everything they say.  They have a right to say whatever (within the terms of service) but we also have a right to respond, yes?

The real value isn't in their pro-feminist, pro-abortion, anti-men drivel... it's to prove to new men that not all FSUW are unlike their American sisters.


The risk comes from newbies believing the agency hype and not seeing (or acknowledging) that some women really aren't so different from the ones we reject at home.

If you don't see it that way fine... I'd still prefer to let men know HERE IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF HOW THE AGENCIES MISLEAD NEW MEN!

[Blues Fairy]

so, it's actually good that Ooops and others like her come to post their opinions... 

The real value isn't in their pro-feminist, pro-abortion, anti-men drivel... it's to prove to new men that not all FSUW are unlike their American sisters. The risk comes from newbies believing the agency hype and not seeing (or acknowledging) that some women really aren't so different from the ones we reject at home.

Kuna, I find your post extremely offensive.  How does believing in the woman's right to make decisions about her body automatically become "pro-feminist, pro-abortion, anti-men drivel"?  Please watch what you write, otherwise you'll alienate a good portion of RW on this board.

[Ooooops]

One hell of a sweet deal to come into a marriage with no assets and if future partner as even moderate assets!

Then it doesn't make no sense to me at all - why to look for a wife in a poor country?   You know she won't have any assets when she marries you.   Gets me...   

Fortunately for some of the "pro-choice" women THEIR MOTHERS weren't PRO-CHOICE!

I don't know if you were familiar with contraception techniques in the Ole USSR but abortion was one of the most common method, unfortunately...      

[groovlstk]

At least on the abortion and capital punishment issue I am consistent. Either way it is to take a life! Fortunately for some of the "pro-choice" women THEIR MOTHERS weren't PRO-CHOICE!

My wife and I have an older female friend in Moscow who has had NINE abortions, yet she also has three children

From what I've seen abortion is not a firebrand issue in the FSU like it is in the West, it's accepted as perfectly natural and as Ooops pointed out earlier for many women it was used as birth control before other alternatives were widely available.

I don't expect marriage agencies marketing "traditional women" to point out this little discrepancy, but what else it new? 

[Ooooops]

I don't expect marriage agencies marketing "traditional women" to point out this little discrepancy, but what else it new? 

I'm not even sure how this "traditional" line came to their marketing slogan.   Russian women I know from my generation and generations of my parents and grandparents are very far from "traditional" in many ways.   And new generation of Russian women are getting very westernized that is also far from traditional.   So it's just an empty promise.   

[WmGO]

It's her body.   

No, actually it is the unborn child's body.
Understanding and *acknowledging* this
fundamental common sense realilty is the
difference between those with and without
a moral compass..........

[Ooooops]

No, actually it is the unborn child's body.
Understanding and *acknowledging* this
fundamental common sense realilty is the
difference between those with and without
a moral compass..........

Lets not attach labels.   Morality is a very uncertain thing - it's compass been know to change direction many times along human history. 

[Ooooops]

My ex sister is one of the biggest abortion doctors in the northwest area! She is very happy with her doings ...

Doings?     Hmmm...  So, are you, guys, one of those who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors in the name of Life?   If so, then I'd rather not discuss this issue with you at all, I don't like radicals... 

[Blues Fairy]

Morality is a very uncertain thing

Careful, you'll receive many rotten tomatoes from the ardent moralists here.

As if the distinction between "child" and "fetus" really had anything to do with morality.  Gimme a break.

Abortion is an issue that can't be handled with a black-and-white point of view and it seems to bring out the very worst in dogmatic people on both sides of the equation.  

[Ooooops]

Careful, you'll receive many rotten tomatoes from the ardent moralists here.

Luckily those tomatoes will stick to their monitors, not mine.   

Abortion is an issue that can't be handled with a black-and-white point of view and it seems to bring out the very worst in dogmatic people on both sides of the equation.

Absolutely.   And I'm very far from saying that it should be used as a contraception method.   But we all know what happens when abortions become illegal...   

[mark2353]

Abortion is an issue that can't be handled with a black-and-white point of view and it seems to bring out the very worst in dogmatic people on both sides of the equation.  

How true! Best to drop subject before we get the tomatoes, just in case is anyone for gaspacho soup??
mark

[Wienerin]

Careful, you'll receive many rotten tomatoes from the ardent moralists here.

As if the distinction between "child" and "fetus" really had anything to do with morality.  Gimme a break.

Abortion is an issue that can't be handled with a black-and-white point of view and it seems to bring out the very worst in dogmatic people on both sides of the equation.  

I won't give you a break At least not until you stop sneaking rotten tomatoes into the other people's pockets - those whose values do not concide with yours.

The distinction between a child/baby and a foetus is generally a pretty clear one (if you stay within the bio-medical data and do not drag religious beliefs, etc. into the discussion) - if the foetus is viable outside the womb, then it's a baby.

BUT - this is my point of view and again in general I do not demand of press other people to subscribe to it. The only issue where I think that public morals (whatever THAT means) have a stand is in the matter of late term abortions. Except when the foetus is a real threat to the mother these shouldn't be allowed in a civilized society.

One could take woman's rights too far, I think. There's quite enough time in 4 mos for a pregnant woman to decide if she wants this baby... I do not buy into the stories that in her 6-7th mos she suddenly became depressed and decided that it's imperative for her to get rid of the annoyance. What is the next stage? Terrible twos? HUsband, rustling his morning newspaper?

There's one other thing that I abhore - when someone thinks to impose one's mores and morals on me. THat is when I'm not doing anything illegal.

Otherwise - go march with these placards, babes Pro-life or pro-choice - I do not care!

Having unburdened myself (for the umpteenth time) on this issue (AND on the issue of homosexuality, AND on the issue of sam-sex marriages, race, etc...), I should say that public morals depend on the times and the society. Not too long ago in the most of "civilized" (i.e. Western) world it was a capital offence to practice (even in secret) different religion, to have an abortion - but perfectly all right to cavort with 8-10 year old children of either or both sexes and beat one's wife or kids senseless when the mood took you.

[Ooooops]

I won't give you a break At least not until you stop sneaking rotten tomatoes into the other people's pockets - those whose values do not concide with yours.

Wienerin, you are preaching to the wrong choir.      Blues Ferry is on pro-choice side as far as I can tell.

[roykirk]

One could take woman's rights too far, I think. There's quite enough time in 4 mos for a pregnant woman to decide if she wants this baby... I do not buy into the stories that in her 6-7th mos she suddenly became depressed and decided that it's imperative for her to get rid of the annoyance. What is the next stage? Terrible twos? HUsband, rustling his morning newspaper?

Such late-term abortions are almost always a scare tactic from the anti-choice crowd.  Nearly every late term abortion I've ever seen or heard about was due to medical reasons.  I've never heard of a 7 or 8 month pregnant woman seeking an abortion because she simply wanted to get rid of the baby.  And this is after several years of volunteering in a women's shelter when I was younger.  I'm sure there are cases where it's happened, but there's also cases of crazy women drowning their kids in the bathtub too, it doesn't mean that all mothers are homicidal maniacs nor does it mean we should remove all bathtubs from houses where kids are present.

[Blues Fairy]

I won't give you a break
The distinction between a child/baby and a foetus is generally a pretty clear one (if you stay within the bio-medical data and do not drag religious beliefs, etc. into the discussion) - if the foetus is viable outside the womb, then it's a baby.

That's exactly what I was saying.  The distinction has nothing to do with morality and only black-and-white dogmatists put judgemental labels on those who stick to an opposing view. 

[Ooooops]

I've never heard of a 7 or 8 month pregnant woman seeking an abortion because she simply wanted to get rid of the baby. 

Neither have I.

I'm sure there are cases where it's happened, but there's also cases of crazy women drowning their kids in the bathtub too, it doesn't mean that all mothers are homicidal maniacs nor does it mean we should remove all bathtubs from houses where kids are present.

Yep! 

[BillyB]

Speaking on abortions, it happens had a higher rate than in America and possibly more accepted so men should take that into consideration when looking for a RW. On a topic of this importance a man should discuss his views with the lady he intends to marry.

Personally I believe in taking responsibility for my actions and I consider an unborn child a human so my views are against abortion and just as important, so are my fiancee's.

I notice some mention they've haven't heard of an abortion happening 7-8 months into pregnancy but what is the difference between that and 1-2 months pregnancy? It's either life or not depending on how you define it.

I have no grudge against those who accept abortion in society. I got friends who are pro-choice. The law gives them that right to choose and if one believes God exists, then he has placed people here to choose their own path in life and He will be the judge of all if they've done wrong, not me. All I have is one voice and one vote when it comes to creating laws.

[roykirk]

I notice some mention they've haven't heard of an abortion happening 7-8 months into pregnancy but what is the difference between that and 1-2 months pregnancy? It's either life or not depending on how you define it.

While it's obviously an opinion thing, I consider the difference to be that a fetus cannot survive outside the womb at 1-2 months pregnancy.  I consider it to be a human life only at the point where it can survive on it's own.  According to medical science, I think that's around the 6 month mark at the earliest.  I simply cannot buy the theory of some that every sperm is a potential baby.  If that were the case, any male who has ever, ahem, done some things in private with themselves, would have to brought up on murder charges....and many millions of murder charges at that.