Russia is at it again!

[OlgaH]

I just want to post the article that backed up what I wrote.

me too 

Especially Central Asian FSU countries disagree with this invasion.   

Russia has won crucial support for its peace efforts in South Ossetia from China and other allies in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO).

At a summit meeting in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, on Thursday, the six-nation SCO security grouping explicitly backed Russia’s “active role” in restoring peace in the region and endorsing a six-point peace plan worked out jointly with France.

“The SCO states welcome the adoption in Moscow on August 12 of six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia and support Russia’s active role in contributing to peace and cooperation in the region,” said the leaders of Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan in a joint declaration adopted at their one-day summit.
http://www.thehindu.com/2008/08/29/stories/2008082956281400.htm

[OlgaH]

could I remind you:

 

could I remind you

even though she has as good as called me ( and others) "stupid" for having differing views and insinuated I'm lying about altering posts.

You have not yet shown any proofs of the words above it means you lie

[msmoby_ru]

Russia has won crucial support for its peace efforts in South Ossetia from China and other allies in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO).

At a summit meeting in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, on Thursday, the six-nation SCO security grouping explicitly backed Russia’s “active role” in restoring peace in the region and endorsing a six-point peace plan worked out jointly with France.


http://www.thehindu.com/2008/08/29/stories/2008082956281400.htm

The article also points out that the countries mentioned nothing of "recognition" and I note you still quote articles referring to the peace-plan with "agreed" with France, that Russia has demonstrably broken..

We still await your response to criticism of Russians actions by traditional "on the fencers" or "supporters" - such as Cyprus, Greek, Arab nations, Iran, ...

[msmoby_ru]

You have not yet shown any proofs of the words above it means you lie

and you demonstrate your refusal to read my posts, which did just that - and take good advice re a swift solution to your demonstrably daft "accusations"...  REPEAT suggest use the "report moderator" function..

[Shadow]

The facts remain that Putin acted alone in his decision back in April 08 to invade Georgia today. He had little support back then and still has little support world wide for his invasion. He granted Russian passports to non citizens for his own purposes long before the invasion. As we all know, this was well planned, but for what purpose does he want this land?  Why were Russian tanks and ships stirring months before this invasion as they got into position?  What were his true reasons?  He has no support from Central Asian FSU countries. Nor does he has support from any Former Soviet countries. Yet he took on this monster knowing the consequences of isolating Russia, devaluing the Ruble, Investors pulling out of Russian investments, and in effect loosing Russian position in the G8 now to be the G 7 as well as the WTO, which will not happen now. As well as Space station and some military benefits. There was a lot to loose and yet he chose to continue this madness.  The world can not accept how Russia just took Georgian land and call it Russian again after 18 years. I guess 1 million barels of Caspian crude oil was all Putin could see. 4 Pipelines that he plans to divert from Europe into Russian control and make more profits for himself. Blinded by his greed he chose to cut off Russia from the free world.  Now that's a serious flaw in judgement, especially for ex KGB.   The future of Russia's economy under Putin is looking rather dim.  The Eu can easily obtain oil from other sources. Cut off the oil and Gas sales from Gazprom, you cut off Rubles to Putin's Russian Bank and it will fail quickly.   Imagine the DUMA voted already to take s. Ossetia, etc, as Russian property? Amazing.  Putin and his men are not capable of telling the truth.  The world sees right through the propaganda machine. The only ones buying in are old school Russians that want the USSR to be born again.  Sadly this is a large number of misinformed day dreamers. The FSU countries have rejected this idea publically and will fight to keep it from becoming a reality. Especially Central Asian FSU countries disagree with this invasion.   

Repeating lies do not make them true.
Russia could not deny people from getting passports they have a right to.
Regarding the moves, have you ever wondered of how beneficial the move of Putin is to the US economy ?
As usual an external threat is reviving the US Dollar, pulling people together and giving many impulses. Also it took the attention of the world off examining human rights in China during the Olympics.
Seen in that perspective Putin and Cheney could have planned the move together, and the scenario has worked as expected.

[msmoby_ru]

Repeating lies do not make them true.
Russia could not deny people from getting passports they have a right to.
Regarding the moves, have you ever wondered of how beneficial the move of Putin is to the US economy ?
As usual an external threat is reviving the US Dollar, pulling people together and giving many impulses. Also it took the attention of the world off examining human rights in China during the Olympics.
Seen in that perspective Putin and Cheney could have planned the move together, and the scenario has worked as expected.

Hi Shadow,

do you REALLY believe this grand conspiracy theory ?!

Can you explain how citizens of GEORGIA - as previously agreed by Russia - were "entitled" to Russian passports? .. even Turkey didn't hand out TR passports to Turkish Cypriots.  This was not a "smart" move for a new Russia, so fond of quoting international law

Sorry, but I still see it - and had previously warned of the ruse Russia would say " Georgia attacked our citizens" ... Can you explain how, if they are now "independent" will these "citizens" be handing backing their RU ones... if recognised .. I rather think not, eh?!

[BC]

In an interview with the television network CNN, Mr. Putin suggested the United States encouraged Georgia to attack the breakaway region of South Ossetia to benefit one of the U.S. presidential candidates.

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino Thursday said Mr. Putin's claim was not rational.

http://voanews.com/english/2008-08-29-voa10.cfm


Addressing the WH response, it seems awful like many of the responses in this thread.  No substance and a personal attack. 

[Misha]

me too 

Russia has won crucial support for its peace efforts in South Ossetia from China and other allies in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO).

At a summit meeting in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, on Thursday, the six-nation SCO security grouping explicitly backed Russia’s “active role” in restoring peace in the region and endorsing a six-point peace plan worked out jointly with France.

“The SCO states welcome the adoption in Moscow on August 12 of six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia and support Russia’s active role in contributing to peace and cooperation in the region,” said the leaders of Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan in a joint declaration adopted at their one-day summit.
http://www.thehindu.com/2008/08/29/stories/2008082956281400.htm

Olga,

The fact of the matter is that Russia ended up with egg on its face. This is what Radio Free Europe had to say on the "support" of the SCO:

SCO Fails To Back Russia Over Georgia

The member states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) have expressed grave concern over tensions in Georgia, but failed to give Moscow clear support in its standoff with the West.

While they backed "Russia's active role" in resolving the conflict in Georgia, the SCO member states stopped well short of recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia's independence.

In their final statement, dubbed the 'Dushanbe Declaration,' the heads of the member states expressed their concern about "recent tension over the South Ossetian issue" and called on all parties to solve the 'existing problems' through dialogue and negotiation."

(source: http://www.rferl.org/content/SCO_Fails_To_Back_Russia_Over_Georgia/1194578.html).

Olga, the fact of the matter is that Russia was looking for other states to also recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states. The other members of the SCO refused to do this. Also, saying that Russia should play an "active role" as "peacekeepers" does not mean that they should be the ONLY peacekeepers. All told, Russia was not supported in its decision to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and by agreeing that a solution should be negotiated, the other leaders were in essence telling Russia that it does not have a right to impose its solution on Georgia. 

[Shadow]

Hi Shadow,

do you REALLY believe this grand conspiracy theory ?!

Can you explain how citizens of GEORGIA - as previously agreed by Russia - were "entitled" to Russian passports? .. even Turkey didn't hand out TR passports to Turkish Cypriots.  This was not a "smart" move for a new Russia, so fond of quoting international law

Sorry, but I still see it - and had previously warned of the ruse Russia would say " Georgia attacked our citizens" ... Can you explain how, if they are now "independent" will these "citizens" be handing backing their RU ones... if recognised .. I rather think not, eh?!

Every citizen of the FSU and their children have the right of Russian citizenship. Citizens of Georgia were citizens of the FSU and there for could not be refused a Russian passport even if Russia had wanted to.
Even people in the Baltics can apply for a Russian passport, and unless the countries sign treaties to prevent a double nationality, many will use the option to their advantage.
About the conspiracy, no I do not believe it, I just say its a possibility to consider.
It is just as factual as telling that Russia has planned this for years.

[OlgaH]

While they backed "Russia's active role" in resolving the conflict in Georgia, the SCO member states stopped well short of recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia's independence.

Misha, did I write  that all members of SCO support recognizing? Where and when I have written it?

If you read one of my posts you will see:

Members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation have signed a declaration in support of Russia's peacekeeping mission in South Ossetia, in spite of fact that SCO pointed out any solution must be based on the principle of territorial integrity.

[Misha]

Misha, did I write  that all members of SCO support recognizing? Where and when I have written it?

If you read one of my posts you will see:

Olga, you wrote: "Russia has won crucial support for its peace efforts in South Ossetia from China and other allies in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO)."

I was pointing out that Russia DID NOT win crucial support from the SCO and if anything Russia was rebuked in its efforts.

[OlgaH]

Olga, you wrote: "Russia has won crucial support for its peace efforts in South Ossetia from China and other allies in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO)."

I was pointing out that Russia DID NOT win crucial support from the SCO and if anything Russia was rebuked in its efforts.

In particular, declaration says “SCO member-countries hail approval of the six principles in Moscow on 12 August to regulate the conflict in South Ossetia and support Russia’s active role to assist world and cooperation in the region”.

http://news.trendaz.com/index.shtml?show=news&newsid=1280898&lang=EN

I was talking about Russian peace efforts.

[BC]

Olga,

The fact of the matter is that Russia ended up with egg on its face. This is what Radio Free Europe had to say on the "support" of the SCO:

SCO Fails To Back Russia Over Georgia

Misha,

Here is a classic example of media 'spin'.. two reporters looking at the exact same facts and deriving different conclusions.

What I find most interesting from the SCO talks is that there was no general condemnation of RU's actions as expressed by other heads of state.  All the statements seem to be quite neutral.

Sometimes the most important part is not what is said, but what was not said.

[Misha]

This is what the Moscow Times had to say about it as well:


Medvedev Disappointed in Dushanbe

Moscow fell short of the diplomatic support it was looking for Thursday, as Central Asian states and China failed to back its recognition of independence for South Ossetia and Abkhazia, offering instead only qualified praise for Russia's actions in the Georgian conflict.

That failure, coupled with a statement by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner that European Union leaders were set to consider sanctions against Russia at a special session Monday, threatened to leave Russia even further isolated diplomatically.

The hope of winning significant support from the membership of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a security alliance Moscow has embraced as a counterbalance to NATO in Central Asia, vanished with a joint statement at a meeting in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, calling for the respect of all countries' territorial integrity and denouncing the use of force in local conflicts.

Source: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/370513.htm.

Again, Russia did not gain crucial support as it did not get what it wanted from the other SCO countries.

[Misha]

Misha,

Here is a classic example of media 'spin'.. two reporters looking at the exact same facts and deriving different conclusions.

What I find most interesting from the SCO talks is that there was no general condemnation of RU's actions as expressed by other heads of state.  All the statements seem to be quite neutral.

Sometimes the most important part is not what is said, but what was not said.

Well, I am countering Olga's spin with other points of view.

Reading between the lines (i.e. what was not expressly said), what comes out is that the SCO countries were recognizing the territorial integrity of Georgia and were pushing for more "negotiations" whereby Russian forces would participate in "peace keeping" but would not be the sole peace keepers. Where have I heard this before? Oh yes, this is what most other countries other than Russia have been pushing for.

[BC]

Well, I am countering Olga's spin with other points of view.

Reading between the lines (i.e. what was not expressly said), what comes out is that the SCO countries were recognizing the territorial integrity of Georgia and were pushing for more "negotiations" whereby Russian forces would participate in "peace keeping" but would not be the sole peace keepers. Where have I heard this before? Oh yes, this is what most other countries other than Russia have been pushing for.

Misha,

And I believe RU also in the past has expressed their wish for international peacekeepers.  Unfortunately I see so far that none have stepped up to the plate.  Until that time it is only logical that RU will maintain it's troops in place. 

The cease fire agreement also called for:

6. The start of an international discussion over the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia

Has this happened? 

IIRC the conditions of the cease fire were goals and not step by step process.

IMHO an appropriate fora for international discussions is quite overdue.  Until the world community begins to work in this direction together, RU will continue to dig in, keeping up the pressure.

[LEGAL]

IMHO an appropriate fora for international discussions is quite overdue.  Until the world community begins to work in this direction together, RU will continue to dig in, keeping up the pressure.

Excellent BC Very well said.

[BC]

The hope of winning significant support from the membership of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a security alliance Moscow has embraced as a counterbalance to NATO in Central Asia, vanished with a joint statement at a meeting in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, calling for the respect of all countries' territorial integrity and denouncing the use of force in local conflicts.[/color]

Source: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/370513.htm.

Again, Russia did not gain crucial support as it did not get what it wanted from the other SCO countries.

Did Medvedev stand up at this meeting and tell the other leaders he wanted them to formally recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

Did Medvedev tell the world he was 'disappointed' or that the meetings were a 'failure' (as reported)..?

I think he got exactly what he could reasonably expect.

[Misha]

The cease fire agreement also called for:

6. The start of an international discussion over the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia

Has this happened? 

IIRC the conditions of the cease fire were goals and not step by step process.

BC, when you sign a contract, do you consider the conditions to be goals and not a step by step process?

As for international discussion, Russia recognized the indepedence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia with no discussion. Clearly, discussion is not what Russia is looking for in this case.

[BC]

BC, when you sign a contract, do you consider the conditions to be goals and not a step by step process?

As for international discussion, Russia recognized the indepedence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia with no discussion. Clearly, discussion is not what Russia is looking for in this case.

Of course they are goals between two parties.  The major goal has been accomplished.. there is no fighting going on or?  Other conditions have been met, others not and interpretation quite open.

As far as recognition of OS and Abkhazia, is it not within the rights of one country to recognize another or not?  There are a few countries on this planet only recognized by some.  Has Russia recognized Kosovo?

It's sort of like the option of any member here to use the ignore button.. do I have to get permission to either read or ignore?

[OlgaH]

Did Medvedev stand up at this meeting and tell the other leaders he wanted them to formally recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

Did Medvedev tell the world he was 'disappointed' or that the meetings were a 'failure' (as reported)..?

I think he got exactly what he could reasonably expect.

Yes, BC, I fully agree that Medvedev knew what to expect, and of course he knows that China and India "have "problem territories" of their own and intend to retain the right to act as they choose in them without fear of foreign interference". But he also knows that their decision will not hurt the relationships between them and Russia.

Russia also has known about the grave consequences "which now finds itself completely isolated by the international community". But in spite of it Russia made its choice in favor of people of SO and Abkhazia protecting them from Georgia's aggression. Yes Russia made its choice in favor of two small Republics who relied upon Russia's help...

During 12 hours UN and NATO was silently watching how Georgia was committing its crime against South Ossetia.

Russia began its deployment only 12 hours after Georgia initiated its first attacks on South Ossetia. That was a good response time, especially if you compare it to the military's poor performance in the first and second wars in Chechnya. In the second war, federal forces finally pulled themselves together and began fighting only 10 days after insurgent leader Shamil Basayev's army invaded Dagestan.

For the first time, the army conducted its operations using the Powell Doctrine, named after Colin Powell, then-U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (although the main points were originally formulated in the early 1980s by former U.S. Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger). According to this doctrine, heavy and decisive force should be used right away to provide maximum superiority over the enemy in the shortest time. In addition, it would be difficult for truly objective military analysts to fault Russian forces for destroying Georgia's most important military targets deep inside its territory. These were necessary steps to disrupt Georgia's supply lines and to prevent regrouping of enemy forces.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1016/42/370436.htm

Yes, I agree with the article "the Georgian campaign was a complete and total failure of Russian diplomacy".

But I also agree with Kishore Mahbubani

The rest of the world had no choice but to capitulate to the advance of the west.

In Georgia, Russia has loudly declared that it will no longer capitulate to the west. After two decades of humiliation Russia has decided to snap back.
http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/opinion/the_west_is_strategically_wrong_on_russia.html

During the centuries Russia survived the terrible wars and crisis... 

[Misha]

Of course they are goals between two parties.  The major goal has been accomplished.. there is no fighting going on or?  Other conditions have been met, others not and interpretation quite open.

As far as recognition of OS and Abkhazia, is it not within the rights of one country to recognize another or not?  There are a few countries on this planet only recognized by some.  Has Russia recognized Kosovo?

It's sort of like the option of any member here to use the ignore button.. do I have to get permission to either read or ignore?

No, but it is a sign of whether Russian has any real allies. Has any other state recognized South Ossetia or Abkhazia? So far, 46 states have recognized the independence of Kosovo and a few more are in the process of doing this (source: http://tinyurl.com/3csywf).

How many states have joined Russia in stating their intention to formally establish diplomatic ties with South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

If few countries (if any) join Russia, it will be a strong indication that a lot of states have put Russia on their ignore list.

[BC]

No, but it is a sign of whether Russian has any real allies. Has any other state recognized South Ossetia or Abkhazia? So far, 46 states have recognized the independence of Kosovo and a few more are in the process of doing this (source: http://*Unapproved Link*.com/3csywf).

How many states have joined Russia in stating their intention to formally establish diplomatic ties with South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

If few countries (if any) join Russia, it will be a strong indication that a lot of states have put Russia on their ignore list.

Who needs allies while standing on two good legs?  RU has been on crutches long enough and is ready again to play ball with the big boys.

[Shadow]

While they have had autonomy for a very long time, and have expressed the democratic will to be independent of Georgia time after time, SO and ABkhazia have never requested to be recognized as independent countries to Russia before (although there have been requests to be separate Soviet republics).
Under the current circumstances, it has already been mentioned that they would no longer trust the Georgian government in handling their request fairly, the result being a formal request to the Russian government for recognition.
So far I am not aware that SO or Abkhazia have issued a request to any other country (except may be Georgia) to obtain this recognition, and if the news sources are correct both areas are aiming at becoming republics inside the Russian Federation.
If this is done by a referendum which is held in a democratic way, this might very well happen as soon as the UN agrees with the independence of the regions.

[Misha]

Who needs allies while standing on two good legs?  RU has been on crutches long enough and is ready again to play ball with the big boys.

Well, on this point we will have to agree to disagree. I would say that the looming crises (demographic, economic, etc...) are not going to leave Russia two legs to stand on. Yes, the petrodollars have helped Russia feel like it is making a comeback, but it has weakened all the other sectors of the economy and have helped the Russian state to avoid necessary reforms and fight corruption. This is the long run will, sadly, make Russia poorer IMHO. Let's see five years from now who was right.