Ukraine Sevastopol as Future Target

[topofthekey]

that naval base doesn't really look like much. Maybe NATO can make a deal with Ukraine? They blow up their base (remove the dry docks) and we build a new NATO naval base there later. 

[I/O]

I read that when the invasion started all the Georgia based websites were hacked.  FSB has a special unit for this.  One can only imagine that this would have been done to control information flowing from the people in their homes.

Most if not all RU domains were blocked. Had this verified by a personal contact living near Tbilisi. Ironically, they were accessing net and email via Iran domains.....communicating with friends in USA. What strange bedfellows precipitate from these things.

Certainly Ukraine has issues with it's large Russian population who want close ties with Moscow and are against joining NATO for that Reason.  Folks, if you're going to live in one country and call yourself something else, that's just wrong.  There are Ukrainians in Ukraine.  It's their country for goodness sake.  Let them make their own choices.  I suggest the Russians in Ukraine either start to think of themselves as Ukrainian (as many do) or, if they can't do that, they might consider relocating to Russia.

Perhaps Moscow should say the same to many dozens of people working in Russia who still very much consider themselves Ukrainian.

The fundamental principles of Democracy assume that the voters want what is best for the country within which they live.

Noble sentiments indeed. The reality is that most people living in ANY democracy want what they see as best for themselves with little consideration to anyone else.

There are many in Ukraine who want only what is in Russia's interest.  That is Ukraine's great struggle.

Ukraine's great struggle seems to be more based on the issues created under soviet rule, whereby the only industries were reliant on supplying into Russia. With that basically gone Ukraine has needed to reinvent itself.

It now looks like the Kremlin has bribed Yulia Tymoshenko with promises of backing her in her bid to replace Yuschenko as President. 

Most thinking people would say that is a given.

BTW who will pay for gas? NATO?

Probably not, but what difference does it make if Auntie Rus isn't being paid now? I doubt being paid for (domestically consumed) gas would be the major factor in Moscow's thinking when it comes to cross border policy on Ukraine.

I/O

[wxman]

I find this whole thing with Queen Yulia quite amusing. She made a trip to Russia earlier this year and came back saying all was cleared up with Gazprom. Prior to that trip she was a persona non grata, and in fact had a warrant out on her. Now she's all of a sudden cozying up to Russia. If I were both Russia and the US, I would be a bit worried. She just may turn on both once elected. She has loyalties to none except herself. She reminds me of Hillary. Poor Victor Yanukovich, he can't get any loving from Russia, no matter how hard he tries.

[OlgaH]

According to Wikipedia, Ukraine has a population of 46,710,815 people. Divide $2 billion by the population of Ukraine and that give you $42.82 per person.

Misha, I think you should send the Wikipedia link and your calculation to the Minister of Economics of Ukraine Bogdan Danilishin. 

[BC]

Misha, I think you should send the Wikipedia link and your calculation to the Minister of Economics of Ukraine Bogdan Danilishin. 

.. won't make the people happy though.. they already paid their bill..

better to owe or be owed.. that is the question!

[Shadow]

Did anyone catch the Russian and Ukrainian sitting together at the end of the Pole Vault today in Beijing ?
They said 'Lets go to Sevastopol, it great there' with a big smile on their face....

[Ronnie]

I find this whole thing with Queen Yulia quite amusing. She made a trip to Russia earlier this year and came back saying all was cleared up with Gazprom. Prior to that trip she was a persona non grata, and in fact had a warrant out on her. Now she's all of a sudden cozying up to Russia. If I were both Russia and the US, I would be a bit worried. She just may turn on both once elected. She has loyalties to none except herself. She reminds me of Hillary. Poor Victor Yanukovich, he can't get any loving from Russia, no matter how hard he tries.

An old Chinese general is reported to have said, "keep you friends close and your enemies even closer"  Maybe one side or both is putting the general's words into practice.

[Misha]

Misha, I think you should send the Wikipedia link and your calculation to the Minister of Economics of Ukraine Bogdan Danilishin. 

Olga, you brought up the 2 billion owing, and I put it into perspective. The fact of the matter is that it is not a huge sum of money in the bigger scheme of things. The Ukrainians, of course, would have their own perspective on who owes what to whom and whether or not contracts signed by Russians were respected.

[Ronnie]

When I was first in Ukraine, I visited a lady Viktoria in Mykolaiv that I had only written one letter to.  On our first meeting in a cafe in her city I asked her, "are you Ukrainian or Russian?"

I will never forget the look of pride on her face, combined with distain as she exclaimed in a firm and loud voice, "Я Русская!"

She later gave me a photo of herself with the phrase written in English, "From Russia with Love" though she had never lived outside Ukraine.  Eventually, I ended the relationship with her because she was quite young and immature.

As I reflect on the politics in Ukraine today, I can see that there are many Viktorias in Ukraine and Russia. People who exude extreme pride in being Russian.  I believe these people will vote the way Moscow dictates as their loyalty is to Moscow and not at all to Kyiv.  These are Putin's fifth column in Ukraine.

[Lit_1nce]

Perhaps Moscow should say the same to many dozens of people working in Russia who still very much consider themselves Ukrainian.

We indeed have similar issues with Mexicans living in the US.. not a problem for me really, until they protest and wave Mexican flags. My thoughts are, if your a Mexican-American, and you want to protest something, that is your right as an American.. but if you consider yourself Mexican first, then you belong in Mexico, solving their problems.,, the issue is about allegiance to country, not race or nationality.. When you wave a flag that is an allegiance.

[BC]

We indeed have similar issues with Mexicans living in the US.. not a problem for me really, until they protest and wave Mexican flags. My thoughts are, if your a Mexican-American, and you want to protest something, that is your right as an American.. but if you consider yourself Mexican first, then you belong in Mexico, solving their problems.,, the issue is about allegiance to country, not race or nationality.. When you wave a flag that is an allegiance.

As populations jet around the world mixing and matching, where one lives in the world becomes more of a choice.

First there were citizens, then dual citizens, then tri citizens, now even more is possible..

The pledge of allegiance and flags hanging in classrooms is an outdated concept that I have personally seen only in one country.  Is there now a Spanish version?

[Lit_1nce]

As populations jet around the world mixing and matching, where one lives in the world becomes more of a choice.

First there were citizens, then dual citizens, then tri citizens, now even more is possible..

The pledge of allegiance and flags hanging in classrooms is an outdated concept that I have personally seen only in one country.  Is there now a Spanish version?

The "pledge" is a different issue altogether... however the concept of allegiance is not outdated, and is what is behind all the recent trouble is it not ? .. If I live in Georgia, but my allegiance is to Russia... sound familiar ?

I am aware of the multi citizenship.. some countries don't allow it.. probably for this reason.

[Misha]

I am aware of the multi citizenship.. some countries don't allow it.. probably for this reason.

As far as I know, Ukraine does not allow dual citizenship. You have, however, hundreds of thousands of people living illegally in Ukraine with both Ukrainian and Russian citizenship.

[Shadow]

As far as I know, Ukraine does not allow dual citizenship. You have, however, hundreds of thousands of people living illegally in Ukraine with both Ukrainian and Russian citizenship.

Neither does the Netherlands. If tomorrow all citizens with dual passports would be forced to leave, there would be a lot of space.

[BC]

As far as I know, Ukraine does not allow dual citizenship. You have, however, hundreds of thousands of people living illegally in Ukraine with both Ukrainian and Russian citizenship.

Why would they be living there illegally?

[Misha]

Why would they be living there illegally?

Well, both according to Constitution and the "Law on Citezenship" a citizen of Ukraine cannot have two citizenships (except in some tightly defined exceptions).

The Law of Ukraine On Citizenship of Ukraine states:

"Article 19. The loss of the citizenship of Ukraine
The citizenship of Ukraine is lost:
1. If a citizen of Ukraine has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of another state after attaining his/her majority."

A Ukrainian citizenship who voluntarily accepts Russian citizenship would therefore have lost their Ukrainian citizenship and rights as a citizen.

Source: http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/en/publication/content/719.htm

[Shadow]

Well, both according to Constitution and the "Law on Citezenship" a citizen of Ukraine cannot have two citizenships (except in some tightly defined exceptions).

The Law of Ukraine On Citizenship of Ukraine states:

"Article 19. The loss of the citizenship of Ukraine
The citizenship of Ukraine is lost:
1. If a citizen of Ukraine has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of another state after attaining his/her majority."

A Ukrainian citizenship who voluntarily accepts Russian citizenship would therefore have lost their Ukrainian citizenship and rights as a citizen.

Source: http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/en/publication/content/719.htm

1. Loss of citizenship does not automatically imply bing illegal.
2. The catch here is that the Russian citizens in Ukraine hav acquired the right and probably citizenship by birth and there for before attaining their majority.

[55North]

In respect of the dual citizenship debate, I should imagine that a matter that might concentrate the mind of dual-nats might be the issue of state pension qualification.
 
Would an 'ethnic' Russian domicile in Ukraine at independence and thus qualifying for Ukrainian state pension assuming payments were being made (or however it is funded), still qualify upon 'receiving' a Russian passport?  Does the passport qualify them for Russian state pension?
 
Is there the potential for political gestures to be made regarding this issue?

[Misha]

1. Loss of citizenship does not automatically imply bing illegal.
2. The catch here is that the Russian citizens in Ukraine hav acquired the right and probably citizenship by birth and there for before attaining their majority.

It is according to the laws of Ukraine. If they continue to live claiming to be citizens (with all the rights and privileges associated with Ukrainian citizenship), while having according to the law lost their citizenship, then they are breaking the law. You cannot simply choose with laws you will follow and claiming ignorance to the law is never a defense.

As for the second point, it does not matter. The law does not make an exception for those born in Ukraine and those who acquired citizenship. The exceptions deal with those people who were minors when they acquired their second citizenship or women who automatically became citizens through marriage (i.e. it was not their choice).

[Shadow]

It is according to the laws of Ukraine. If they continue to live claiming to be citizens (with all the rights and privileges associated with Ukrainian citizenship), while having according to the law lost their citizenship, then they are breaking the law. You cannot simply choose with laws you will follow and claiming ignorance to the law is never a defense.

As for the second point, it does not matter. The law does not make an exception for those born in Ukraine and those who acquired citizenship. The exceptions deal with those people who were minors when they acquired their second citizenship or women who automatically became citizens through marriage (i.e. it was not their choice).

You can not choose the exceptions just because you want to.
If someone acquires citizenship of a country due to birth, and acquires a citizenship of another country due to birth as well, they do not have to renounce it. If you quoted the law, it does apply to all ethnic Soviet citizens ho acquired the Russian citizenship by birth and the Ukrainian citizenship by residence or birth.

If they would not have Russian citizenship rights, and requested them while not minors then it still remains to be seen if they are illegal.
They may not be citizens, but based on other laws they can still be legal residents of Ukraine and there for have the same rights and priviledges as citizens.
I do not know enough about the Ukrainian residence and nationality laws to be able to give a founded opinion.
Under Dutch law residents would hav equal rights as citizens, except for voting for the National parliament (and that is about to change)

[Misha]

You can not choose the exceptions just because you want to.
If someone acquires citizenship of a country due to birth, and acquires a citizenship of another country due to birth as well, they do not have to renounce it. If you quoted the law, it does apply to all ethnic Soviet citizens ho acquired the Russian citizenship by birth and the Ukrainian citizenship by residence or birth.

As you correctly note, the only citizenship they would have acquired by birth is Soviet citizenship, but if you recall the Soviet Union no longer exists.

[wxman]

If most of the Russians in Ukraine are considered Russian citizens by Russia, why then do they have to register as Ukrainians if they stay for an extended period in Russia? 

[BC]

If most of the Russians in Ukraine are considered Russian citizens by Russia, why then do they have to register as Ukrainians if they stay for an extended period in Russia? 

Guess that depends on what passport they show.. same here in EU land.. show one and I have to go through a lengthy registration process.. show another and guess what.. it's done!

[Misha]

If most of the Russians in Ukraine are considered Russian citizens by Russia, why then do they have to register as Ukrainians if they stay for an extended period in Russia? 

Depends how you define "considered." Either you have Russian citizenship (and a Russian passport) or you do not have Russian citizenship (and no passport). The old Soviet Union passport is no longer valid as the Russian Federation introduced its own passports.

[Ronnie]

Georgia and The Stakes For Ukraine

By Victor Yushchenko

Monday, August 25, 2008; A17

KYIV, Ukraine -- The conflict in Georgia revealed problems that extend well beyond our region. Recent events have made clear how perilous it is for the international community to ignore "frozen conflicts." The issues of breakaway regions in newly independent states are complex; too often, they have been treated as bargaining chips in geopolitical games. But such "games" result in the loss of human lives, humanitarian disasters, economic ruin and the collapse of international security guarantees.

Ukraine has become a hostage in the war waged by Russia. This has prompted Ukrainian authorities and all of our country's people, including those living in the Crimea, to ponder the dangers emanating from the fact that the Russian Black Sea fleet is based on our territory.

The tragic events in Georgia also exposed the lack of effective preventive mechanisms by the United Nations, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and other international organizations.

We in Ukraine hope that the Russian Federation will heed the opinion of the global community so that the issues at hand can be settled through negotiations. We want an end to the looting and destruction of Georgian infrastructure. We must do everything possible to prevent provocations and avoid further massacres.

The ongoing conflict between Russia and Georgia affects my country's interests. Military operations have taken place close to our borders, and the Russian Black Sea fleet was directly involved. The question of Ukraine's national security was acutely raised. Given the activities of the Russian fleet, I had to issue a decree regulating its functioning on the territory of Ukraine.

Under these circumstances, Ukraine could not stay silent. We, along with other nations, engaged to seek resolution of the conflict. From the first day of hostilities, Ukraine called for an immediate cease-fire by all parties and dispatched humanitarian aid to victims regardless of their ethnicity.

Ukraine upheld its firm support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia.

On Aug. 12, I, together with my colleagues from the three Baltic states and Poland, visited Tbilisi. Our proposals seeking a solution to the conflict were in harmony with the European Union settlement plan. We highly praise the efforts of the United States and the E.U. presidency, led by the French, to achieve a cease-fire. Their actions proved efficient in putting a halt to war and bloodshed.

Ukraine favors a wider international representation in the peacekeeping force in the conflict area. A new multilateral format mandated by the United Nations or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe is the only way to guarantee security in the conflict zone.

I strongly hope that that plan will be strictly implemented by the conflicting parties. We are ready to join international efforts to provide relief and help victims resume their peaceful lives. Ukraine also stands ready to take part in the U.N. or OSCE missions by sending peacekeepers.

It is clear that in addition to the political dimensions of issues involving breakaway regions, we need to cope with the social and economic aspects of this phenomenon. Many of these provinces are beyond the control of the respective governments or the international community. In many cases, the absence of monitoring has turned these territories into havens for smuggling as well as illegal trafficking in arms, people and drugs. Corruption and human-rights abuses are rampant. These areas are marked by their lack of democratic electoral procedures and their unfree or biased media. The ethnic dimension of the problem is often exaggerated to help conceal the criminal practices.

Moreover, an area home to such activities poses a threat to the prosperity and development of adjacent nations. Official authorities are compelled to counter attacks from separatist paramilitaries. But they are not always successful. Before large-scale combat erupted in Georgia, Russian peacekeepers failed to prevent the shelling of Georgian territory by South Ossetian separatists. Indeed, that activity intensified in the days before the greater conflict.

This weekend Ukraine celebrated the anniversary of its independence. This conflict has proved once again that the best means of ensuring the national security of Ukraine and other countries is to participate in the collective security system of free democratic nations, exemplified today by NATO. In accordance with national legislation and its foreign policy priorities, Ukraine will continue following the path of Euro-Atlantic integration. This is the path of democracy, freedom and independence.

The writer is president of Ukraine.