If I had it to do all over again, I dont think I would even leave the airport in

[groovlstk]

So you are saying that marriage with a RW has a higher success rate then a marriage with a woman from  Moldova?

Not at all. It's all down to the individuals involved, regardless of whether the woman comes from Moldova, Russia, or anywhere. Like Doc said, country of origin is not important.

In very general terms, the wider the economic disparity the more motivation a woman has to marry for the wrong reasons. Doesn't matter if she's poor in Paraguay, destitute in Dubai, or broke in Barnaul.

[Enot]

Not at all. It's all down to the individuals involved, regardless of whether the woman comes from Moldova, Russia, or anywhere. Like Doc said, country of origin is not important.

In very general terms, the wider the economic disparity the more motivation a woman has to marry for the wrong reasons. Doesn't matter if she's poor in Paraguay, destitute in Dubai, or broke in Barnaul.

I haven't checked lately but I haven't found any destitute or very poor women on any agency websites.  I know many women from  Moldova that are seeking a foreign man and many more that are not. 

What you write is your opinion, I respect it but I don't believe it.

[groovlstk]

I haven't checked lately but I haven't found any destitute or very poor women on any agency websites.

And how would you know that? I dated plenty of women in Ukraine who were dirt poor but who wore trendy clothing for their photo shoots. Moldova is one of the poorest countries in Europe, how is it that their women seeking foreign husbands are in a different demographic?

Believe what you want if it makes you feel better 

[Enot]

And how would you know that? I dated plenty of women in Ukraine who were dirt poor but who wore trendy clothing for their photo shoots. Moldova is one of the poorest countries in Europe, how is it that their women seeking foreign husbands are in a different demographic?

Believe what you want if it makes you feel better 

I said I (meaning me) haven't found any dirt poor FSU women.  I never dated a dirt poor FSU before.  Maybe this is why you think Moldova is a breeding ground for scammers and desperate women ... but then again you've never dated a woman from Moldova so how do you know?

We both have our opinions which differ.  Can you accept that and move on ... or are you always correct?

[Misha]

but then again you've never dated a woman from Moldova so how do you know?

I don't have to date a woman from another country to know something. There are UN reports, OSCE reports, newspaper accounts, and a variety of other credible sources that confirm that Moldava is a poor country and there are many women desperately leaving Moldava in the hopes of a better life.

[groovlstk]

I said I (meaning me) haven't found any dirt poor FSU women.  I never dated a dirt poor FSU before. 

Then you obviously didn't date extensively, or didn't spend much time living like a local. Despite recent gains there is still endless poverty in Ukraine and Russia, which are still in better shape than Moldova. Ask someone like Jack or Turbo who has been around for a decade - it was rare for a woman to bail on her Western fiance during the K1 period. That has changed, and why do you think it's changed? ECONOMICS, plain and simple.

Maybe this is why you think Moldova is a breeding ground for scammers and desperate women ... but then again you've never dated a woman from Moldova so how do you know?

I never said that, please don't put words in my mouth. I simply countered your misleading and naive comment that men are more likely to find a soulmate and a woman more open to relocation in Moldova than Russia or large Ukrainian cities.

Remove the "soulmate" and "good woman" part of your statement, and I agree 100%.

You fail to understand the dynamics of what I'm saying. I thought at first I wasn't being clear but several other members have tried to explain to you and you still don't get it.

[Misha]

I never said that, please don't put words in my mouth. I simply countered your misleading and naive comment that men are more likely to find a soulmate and a woman more open to relocation in Moldova than Russia or large Ukrainian cities.

Remove the "soulmate" and "good woman" part of your statement, and I agree 100%.

I agree with Groov. The fact of the matter is that one can find a soulmate anywhere. Once you find her, she (or you) will be willing to move anywhere for the other. From what I gather from these sites, the issue is not where a man can find a soulmate, rather where some men (and I am not implying you Enot) can go spend a week and be guaranteed of finding a woman willing to relocate to a new country.

[Enot]

I don't have to date a woman from another country to know something. There are UN reports, OSCE reports, newspaper accounts, and a variety of other credible sources that confirm that Moldava is a poor country and there are many women desperately leaving Moldava in the hopes of a better life.

And how does this make Moldova any differnet from other countries?  Other countrfies don't have desparate or poor women?

My point has always been that your odds increase of finding a "good and serious" woman if you look in other FSU countires.  It doesn't matter why and other members have agreed with me. 

Can't we agree to disagree on this?  You have your opinion anrd I have mine.  Let's just leave it at that.

[Enot]

Then you obviously didn't date extensively, or didn't spend much time living like a local. Despite recent gains there is still endless poverty in Ukraine and Russia, which are still in better shape than Moldova. Ask someone like Jack or Turbo who has been around for a decade - it was rare for a woman to bail on her Western fiance during the K1 period. That has changed, and why do you think it's changed? ECONOMICS, plain and simple.

So are you saying if you never date a poor and destitute woman from the FSU then you don't know the people?  That would be your opinion and not mine.  I've been at this for more than 3 years, lived in the woman's apartment, met her family and freinds, attended a wedding, and many other things.  Believe me, I know the Russian people.  I have seen the poverty, but every country has it, but I never dated any desparate or poor women.

I agree, things were different even 3 years ago and you could find a woman/bride/soul mate/wife or what ever you want to call her in any country of the FSU.  But that has changed and things are a lot more difficult now because RW and some UW women feel more secure about their future because or their economics and have heard many bad stories about foreign men.   Just because the economy is better in one country doesn't mean the economy in another country is worse and makes it's people more desparate and poor.

As I said to Misha, you have your opinion and I have mine.  We will have to disagree on this.

[Turboguy]

My own two cents worth are that it is a bunch of bull. 

If you look up at the masthead it says Russian Women Discussion.  We all talk about FSU women.  Most of us are men with a few RW or UW in the mix.  We have a lot of discussions about looking for and marrying RW. 

If you go someplace where the focus is not RW but let's say immigration.  What do you find?   You find people from all over the world finding love.   People from England, Canada, Asia, Australia, Germany.  You can probably even find people from Luxenburgh finding love and they have the highest income level in the world and would be trading down to come to the USA.  Are you telling me people from Canada, England and Australia are poor?

My wife is doing a survey for her statistic's class on the motives immigrants have to apply for citizenship.   Even though links to her survey are on more places like this that cater to FSU people the FSU is not the top area in the responses at this stage.  She has had people take her survey from all over the world.   If economics is the only reason, why is that?  One of the comments I have seen involving her survey is that a lot of people don't care all that much where they live.  They want to be together and it is easier for them here but their priority is being together.   If economics is everything, why do they say that?  That was also the case with my wife and I.  We preferred to be here but if we could not then we were going to find someplace in the world where we could be together.

Point two.  Yes, Russia's economy has improved and the incomes have increased.  Women in Moscow probably can find a job paying $ 800.00 - $ 1000.00 a month.   Of course the real estate prices and cost of living have gone up so much that it is still not much more than survival wages.  Get away from Moscow and $ 200.00 - $ 300.00 is more the norm.  That is not living a life of luxury.  Yes, it used to be worse.  I recall meeting a woman on my first trip back in '96.  She lived in a one room apartment that shared the bath and kitchen with 3 other apartments.   She wanted to offer me some food but I watched as she opened her fridge to see what she had and all that was in there was a nearly empty bottle of catsup.  People in Moscow had plywood black and white TV's that got 3 channels.  Few made any real money in those days.  Yes it is better, but still not all that great and money is not everything.

The agencies feed us a bunch of bull about all the RM being drunks and wife beaters.  We know that there are good men in Russia.  Yes, drinking and spousal abuse are more common there.   One big factor is that I think AM are much more willing to be a surrogate father to someone else's child.  AM do have the reputation of being good husbands and that is a factor for any woman from anywhere.   Lots of teenage women everywhere read romance novels and dream of a foreign prince riding in on a white horse and whisking them off to their castle.  Not too many of us ride white horses or have a castle but it does play up to the romantic side that women have to be whisked off to some far away land and a happy life. 

Personally I think Moldova or one of the Stans is a good choice.  Yes, there may be a few more who want to leave for economic reasons but the main reason I think it is a good choice for someone is that there are not as many men who go there.   The best women don't get as many men visiting them and the best women are not already married and gone.  I just don't think someone who prefers to go to Russia or Ukraine is up against a hopeless situation and I don't think economics and a better life is the major reason women leave.   

[Enot]

I agree 100% TG and the point I was trying to make.  It doesn't matter why odds increase in poorer countries, they just do. 

[LEGAL]

Excellent post by a very experienced and well traveled Turboguy!   I have seen and experienced many of these  issues you have brought to light. Newbies need to pay attention!

[northlakeca]

I agree 100% TG and the point I was trying to make.  It doesn't matter why odds increase in poorer countries, they just do. 

It's all a crapshoot it seems. You pick too young a girl and they aren't as serious to leave the FSU. You pick an older girl, and she is more likely to part with her family for money, as she feels she has nothing to lose. Finding serious & loving is like finding a diamond there. Sure, love can be found in any FSU country, but I also agree, there aren't as many "keepers" as once thought, or as in previous years, because many of the "keepers" are staying in the FSU and have either found love there, or are content with their way of life, no matter how bad it may seem in our eyes or compared to our standard of living in the USA. The girls there are not running for the border anymore as in years past, though the gold diggers there still remain the same as in the past... still running for the border and taking their victims bank accounts with them...
I guess it all comes down to, can you be one of the lucky ones, or maybe better stated; one of the smarter ones with a little luck thrown in?
It would be interesting though to see actual US government statistics on how many successful marriages or long-lasting K-1's there are, green cards, and divorces with AM & FSU women. I'm sure that the stats would be alarming and would discourage many.
...Bottom line, by listening to & discerning the advice on here (making an informed decision), staying in your appropriate age range, and having an interpreter-guide that you can really trust, of course it is very much a possibility...

[kievstar]

You make your own luck.  Finding a good girl in Ukraine or Russia is not hard.  If it is hard, I would encourage guys to rework there image or stay at home.  Women are women.  Want security, trust, honesty, romance for the most part.  Easy to spot the gold diggers.  They usually say financial secure man wanted in profile.  The new thing your seeing now is good looking man in profiles.  Also a growing number of girls in Ukraine want African American men.  Times are always changing need to adapt. 

Going under 25 year old girls in a long distance relationship is hard.  I would encourage the guys who have trouble with women in there own country to date closer to there age and over 28 years old.  This has never been cheap dating.

[ScottinCrimea]

I agree 100% TG and the point I was trying to make.  It doesn't matter why odds increase in poorer countries, they just do. 

I'm seeing you pick and choose those parts of posts that suggest agreement, no matter how slight, with your position and ignoring those parts that disagree.  That's a bad habit.

I strongly disagree with your statement above.  If the odds of finding a woman who will relocate increase in poorer countries it matters VERY MUCH why.

[Turboguy]

Scott, if someone is using an agency, or a site like Elena's isn't it safe to assume that the women the guys would be meeting would at least be receptive to moving abroad for the right guy.  I had times when I was in the looking stage that I would see a listing that specified a guy from Europe and I would never answer those.  I will agree that some women can get the last minute cold feet but for the most part if they don't want to leave Russia or where ever they won't do a listing.

[docetae]

I have met this kind of woman in the past. She never traveled before knowing me, never met a foreigner too and realized after that she need her family (mother, sister, cousin..) close and will not be able to live far. I don't know if this is BS or not, but result is that today, she is still single, living in Ukraine and no more listed with an agency...

[Gator]

I said I (meaning me) haven't found any dirt poor FSU women.  I never dated a dirt poor FSU before. 

Then you obviously didn't date extensively, or didn't spend much time living like a local.

...or Enot was misled by the high level of pride exhibited by RW and UW.  They are short on cash but long on pride, and somehow RW and UW make the little they have go far. 

Most are better off than a few years ago, yet only a small percentage live as well as the average AW.

[Enot]

Then you obviously didn't date extensively, or didn't spend much time living like a local.


...or Enot was misled by the high level of pride exhibited by RW and UW.  They are short on cash but long on pride, and somehow RW and UW make the little they have go far. 

Most are better off than a few years ago, yet only a small percentage live as well as the average AW.

No I was not mislead by pride of RW.  Every woman FSU woman I dated could afford their own ticket to the places we visited and lived in nice apartments which they owned.

[Faux Pas]

I agree 100% TG and the point I was trying to make.  It doesn't matter why odds increase in poorer countries, they just do. 

Enot, there you make the same very baseless and empty statement yet again and as Scott mentioned you seem to take other members post and attempt to mold them into agreement with you for validation. It simply doesn't work.

I asked you in an earlier post what you based that opinion on and you mention 10 men that you know. Again, I say not enough sample size to form any reasonable opinion much less state it as fact. The greatest "odds" are going to be in the shear numbers of available women to the number of searching men. The numbers are greatest in the populated areas of Russia and Ukraine. That is the math of this equation.

Of course there are the other variables. The quality of the man, the quality and seriousness of the woman. This would lead us back to the sample size you used to form your opinion. It would be a better guess that the 10 men you know were either lacking in the quality department at worse and at best seriously lack in the good judgement area.

There is no correlation in odds and poorer countries. You seem to be frustrated that no one is agreeing with this and at the challenge on it. I can predict if you continue to makes statements such as this, members will continue to call you on it. And they should. Just because you say it's true doesn't make it true.

[ScottinCrimea]

I've been at this for more than 3 years, lived in the woman's apartment, met her family and freinds, attended a wedding, and many other things.  Believe me, I know the Russian people.  I have seen the poverty, but every country has it, but I never dated any desparate or poor women.

No, enot, you do not know the Russian people.  Every post you make confirms this. You know SOME Russian people and you know a little bit about a few parts of the country, but it's quite arrogant and naive to make such a statement.  I don't recall even the most experienced member here ever making such a claim.

[Shadow]

Could someone give a definition of poverty ?

Is not having the latest gadgets and a big car poverty ?
Is living on a farm with your family, who are all well-fed but without any 'modern comfort' poverty ?
Is living in a big modern city and having a job and home, but still finding it hard to buy food for yourself and your children poverty ?

I am always pretty alarmed when guys feel they need to go to the 'poorer' areas to find a woman. It indicates that they feel so insecure about their chances, that they need to buy a woman. To talk about finding sincere women then becomes hypocrisy. If they wanted sincere women who do not care about escaping they could look in the richer areas as well.

[felix8787]

My definition of poverty, is someone who makes a certain amount of money enough to get by but not enough to live well.

They might have some modern gadgets, even poverty stricken people here have modern gadgets including a car, but US and FSU are 2 different to make a comparison IMO, here in the US, There are programs for welfare, foodstamps and other various opportunities to get back on your feet. I don't know anything about FSU other then go and get a job and just trying to make it.


felix8787

[groovlstk]

Personally I think Moldova or one of the Stans is a good choice.  Yes, there may be a few more who want to leave for economic reasons but the main reason I think it is a good choice for someone is that there are not as many men who go there. 

TG, in your decade-long search did you use any other methods of meeting women other than agencies, agency tours, and freepersonals.com?

The only thing "fished out" in Moscow and Kiev and the places Enot and you recommend avoiding are the agencies. Over the years they've become magnets for pro daters and prostitutes, so for guys who can't or won't pull away from the agency teat, I'm sure things look much more fertile in remote places.

The best women don't get as many men visiting them and the best women are not already married and gone.

Best women? An agency in any given city has at best a single digit representing percentage of available women in a particular location. And what percentage of this single digit represents green carders and pro daters? Do you believe that the "best" women in any city are looking for aging white foreigners to come rescue her? Sorry, but this is extraordinarily arrogant and insulting to Russian and Ukrainian (and Moldovan, etc.) people and if you said such while in the FSU you'd be laughed out of town or tarred and feathered.

My wife has plenty of single friends in Moscow who are pining for a good man - they aren't specifically seeking Western guys but they'd be more than open to relationships w/foreigners. Problem is, because of the way the industry has evolved in big cities there is a stigma to belonging to an agency and these girls would rather remain single than sign up. And they have standards, too - your blue passport and heavy wallet don't carry as much weight as they do in the hinterlands.

Enot may refuse to acknowledge the obvious and that's his perogative, as it is mine to call him out when he tries to wordsmith his way past the guards.

For you guys who think you have a better shot in poor or very remote places, you may get by without competition from other Western guys and easily find someone to emigrate. But whether you like it or not, you'll have to compete eventually. When she arrives you'll have local men who are younger and richer who'd very much like to talk to her in private. Do you have what it takes to keep her or will you resort to controlling and manipulating her into staying? And even if you succeed at such, is this your idea of success?

[Misha]

And they have standards, too - your blue passport and heavy wallet don't carry as much weight as they do in the hinterlands.

Well, I would say that the normal women in the Russian "hinterlands" also have their standards. If someone expects to go to even a rural Russian village and expect that all the single young women will flock to them in the hopes of escaping, they are mistaken. This does not mean that they won't consider relocating, but they have to find a good man first. And, as elsewhere, I would be wary of any woman too anxious to leave at any cost.